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The Grey King fought Garth the Greenhand


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3 minutes ago, LmL said:

I just wanted to let everyone know that the term "slipping" or "slip," as in slipping your skin or slipping into Casterly Rock, is a sleipnir reference. Sleipnir means "slippery," because of his smooth gait (can leap whole realms of the universe in a single bound, after all). Since sleipnir and Yggdrasil / Odin ideas are so vividly realized in the greenseers and skinchangers, I think it's no coincidence Martin uses that word constantly to describe skinchanging. So, when we see Lann "slip inside" the Rock, the 'slip' word is an additional clue about skinchanging.  @Blue Tiger and @Unchainedwill agree I am sure. 

Oh yes....and if we keep in mind that Casterly Rock resembles a giant lion, slipping into the rock = skinchanging lions....maybe that's what Lann did to win the Rock for himself...

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11 minutes ago, LmL said:

I just wanted to let everyone know that the term "slipping" or "slip," as in slipping your skin or slipping into Casterly Rock, is a sleipnir reference. Sleipnir means "slippery," because of his smooth gait (can leap whole realms of the universe in a single bound, after all). Since sleipnir and Yggdrasil / Odin ideas are so vividly realized in the greenseers and skinchangers, I think it's no coincidence Martin uses that word constantly to describe skinchanging. So, when we see Lann "slip inside" the Rock, the 'slip' word is an additional clue about skinchanging.  @Blue Tiger and @Unchainedwill agree I am sure. 

So you're saying to keep an eye on the cobblers?

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19 hours ago, Pain killer Jane said:

This isn't really setting it on fire but it does speak to climbing the tree

Keep that image of Sansa's wedding gown and remember that she has coppery red hair

Seems like Sansa is the weirwood tree here and Tyrion is the person that climbed her and it's interesting he is standing on a fool's back. 

This reminds me of when you and @Isobel Harper first identified the meaning of 'Tor' over on Seams' puns and wordplay thread, and I mentioned in addition to the meanings of 'Tor' as gate, door, tower, or hill; it can also mean 'scoring a goal' as well as being a 'fool' or 'idiot'!  As I recall, we also discussed how this might refer symbolically to Torrhen -- the other 'Tor' besides 'Tormund'.  PK -- you mentioned over there that 'Tor' is a pun on 'torn'.  Accordingly, when Torrhen knelt to save his people, a gesture for which he was held a fool by many, but which he did nevertheless for the greater good of the realm, symbolically he was willing to be 'torn' up himself (like a scarecrow, a sacrificial straw man, a man of rags, a ragged man) in order, paradoxically, to stitch the fabric of a broken realm together and prevent further bloodshed -- a self-sacrificial gesture; in 'forging terms': by kneeling, 'annealing.'  Thus, the fool who guards the door -- the gatekeeper, as Torrhen was the gatekeeper or 'goalie' guarding the gate to the north -- undergoes a symbolic and/or real death in order to open the door for others.  When he is torn asunder, he becomes the gate himself, providing a pathway for others.  

i.e. Besides people using doors, a person him- or herself is the door for others. 

Being torn apart is like opening a door, swinging open the hinge, being penetrated (all sexual connotations apply), giving birth, etc.  So Torrhen symbolically gives birth to the new world order, allowing the Targaryens to score the match-winning goal and penetrate the breach by which the north was 'f***ed'...I'll give y'all a clue -- it rhymes with 'plucked'...but I'm sure all of you were thinking in sea/see terms so you thought I meant 'flooded' by a 'wave' of Targaryens ;)  ( @Wizz-The-Smith, do you approve of my football, and other, analogies? :)).  Fittingly, this all transpires at the Neck -- the gate between north and south -- and 'the Neck is the key to the kingdom', so as every key has its lock, every lock has its door; so the Neck is the door and Torrhen by kneeling is the neck that was symbolically broken in order to pave the way for the Targaryens to unite the kingdoms under one rule, in addition to saving his own people further death by blood and fire.

The 'Tor', 'door' or fool is sacrificed just like Jinglebell at the Red Wedding by Catelyn, who in that moment just before she kills him has a flashback memory of Bran and his would-be assassin.  So as @LmL has pointed out, one way to interpret the juxtaposition of that particular memory in this context is that Bran is aligned with the fool.  Will Bran, like Jinglebell, Torrhen, or the man sacrificed to the weirwood in the greenseeing dream, be the sacrificial one who will be torn apart at the neck symbolically (correspondingly, Jinglebell was sacrificed by cutting his throat) so that others may come together?

31 minutes ago, LmL said:

I just wanted to let everyone know that the term "slipping" or "slip," as in slipping your skin or slipping into Casterly Rock, is a sleipnir reference. Sleipnir means "slippery," because of his smooth gait (can leap whole realms of the universe in a single bound, after all). Since sleipnir and Yggdrasil / Odin ideas are so vividly realized in the greenseers and skinchangers, I think it's no coincidence Martin uses that word constantly to describe skinchanging. So, when we see Lann "slip inside" the Rock, the 'slip' word is an additional clue about skinchanging.  @Blue Tiger and @Unchainedwill agree I am sure. 

LmL-- you obviously don't read my poetry thread in any great detail (apart from gatecrashing with Metallica collaborations and 'yoda-style-haiku'...;)

ETA:  So 'slipping inside a rock' is 'singing the song of stones' --

Skinchanging the comet, yeah baby!

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Oh -- while we're on the topic of doors, remember this...

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Of all the trees in Britain and Ireland the oak is considered king. Famed for its endurance and longevity, even today it is synonymous with strength and steadfastness in the popular mind. John Evelyn in his Sylva, Or a Discourse of Forest-Trees, calls it the ‘pride and glory of the forest’, and in The Fairy-Faith in Celtic Countries, Evans-Wenze proclaims that ‘the oak is pre-eminently the holy tree of Europe’. In the Classical world it was regarded as the Tree of Life as its deep roots penetrate as deep into the Underworld as its branches soar to the sky, and it was held sacred to Zeus and Jupiter. In Scandinavia the oak was the tree of the Thunder-God, Thor, as it was to his Finnish counterpart, Jumala.

Its name derives from the Anglo-Saxon word, ac, but in Irish the word is 'daur', and in Welsh 'dar' or 'derw', probably cognate with the Greek, 'drus'. Some scholars consider this the origin of the term 'Druid’, since Druids have always been associated with sacred groves, and particularly oak forests. Dense forests of oak once covered most of Northern Europe in those days, so it is not surprising to find this tree help most sacred by people who ‘live in oak forests, used oak timber for building, oak sticks for fuel, and oak acorns for food and fodder.’ (1) Combined with the Indo-European root ‘wid’: to know, ‘Druid’ may have referred to those with ‘knowledge of the oak’, the ‘Wise Ones of the Oakwood’. The Sanskrit word, ‘Duir’, gave rise both to the word for oak and the English word ‘door’, which suggests that this tree stands as an opening into greater wisdom, perhaps an entryway into the otherworld itself.

From:  http://www.druidry.org/library/trees/tree-lore-oak

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8 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

So you're saying to keep an eye on the cobblers?

goddamit Jane! Please try to remember we are mere mortals! What do cobblers have to do with slipping? I mean horse shoes, yes, but...

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3 minutes ago, LmL said:

goddamit Jane! Please try to remember we are mere mortals! What do cobblers have to do with slipping? I mean horse shoes, yes, but...

lol. Sorry. Walking a mile in someone's shoe is warging a person.

edit:

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The septon could neither read nor write, as he cheerfully confessed along the road, but he knew a hundred different prayers and could recite long passages from The Seven-Pointed Star from memory, which was all that was required in the villages. He had a seamed, windburnt face, a shock of thick grey hair, wrinkles at the corners of his eyes. Though a big man, six feet tall, he had a way of hunching forward as he walked that made him seem much shorter. His hands were large and leathery, with red knuckles and dirt beneath the nails, and he had the biggest feet that Brienne had ever seen, bare and black and hard as horn.

"I have not worn a shoe in twenty years," he told Brienne. "The first year, I had more blisters than I had toes, and my soles would bleed like pigs whenever I trod on a hard stone, but I prayed and the Cobbler Above turned my skin to leather."

 

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 I am old, though, and being old, I love the Smith. Without his labor, what would the Warrior defend? Every town has a smith, and every castle. They make the plows we need to plant our crops, the nails we use to build our ships, iron shoes to save the hooves of our faithful horses, the bright swords of our lords. No one could doubt the value of a smith, and so we name one of the Seven in his honor, but we might as easily have called him the Farmer or the Fisherman, the Carpenter or the Cobbler. What he works at makes no matter. What matters is, he works. The Father rules, the Warrior fights, the Smith labors, and together they perform all that is rightful for a man. Just as the Smith is one aspect of the godhead, the Cobbler is one aspect of the Smith. It was he who heard my prayer and healed my feet."

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Dogs were the easiest beasts to bond with; they lived so close to men that they were almost human. Slipping into a dog's skin was like putting on an old boot, its leather softened by wear. As a boot was shaped to accept a foot, a dog was shaped to accept a collar, even a collar no human eye could see. 

 

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11 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:
19 hours ago, Pain killer Jane said:

This isn't really setting it on fire but it does speak to climbing the tree

Keep that image of Sansa's wedding gown and remember that she has coppery red hair

Seems like Sansa is the weirwood tree here and Tyrion is the person that climbed her and it's interesting he is standing on a fool's back. 

This reminds me of when you and @Isobel Harper first identified the meaning of 'Tor' over on Seams' puns and wordplay thread, and I mentioned in addition to the meanings of 'Tor' as gate, door, tower, or hill; it can also mean 'scoring a goal' as well as being a 'fool' or 'idiot'!  As I recall, we also discussed how this might refer symbolically to Torrhen -- the other 'Tor' besides 'Tormund'.  PK -- you mentioned over there that 'Tor' is a pun on 'torn'.  Accordingly, when Torrhen knelt to save his people, a gesture for which he was held a fool by many, but which he did nevertheless for the greater good of the realm, symbolically he was willing to be 'torn' up himself (like a scarecrow, a sacrificial straw man, a man of rags, a ragged man) in order to stitch the fabric of a broken realm together and prevent further bloodshed -- a self-sacrificial gesture; in 'forging terms': by kneeling, 'annealing.'  Thus, the fool who guards the door -- the gatekeeper, as Torrhen was the gatekeeper or 'goalie' guarding the gate to the north -- undergoes a symbolic and/or real death in order to open the door for others.  When he is torn asunder, he becomes the gate himself, providing a pathway for others.  

i.e. Besides people using doors, a person him- or herself is the door for others. 

Being torn apart is like opening a door, swinging open the hinge, being penetrated (all sexual connotations apply), giving birth, etc.  So Torrhen symbolically gives birth to the new world order, allowing the Targaryens to score the match-winning goal and penetrate the breach by which the north was 'f***ed'...I'll give y'all a clue -- it rhymes with 'plucked'...but I'm sure all of you were thinking in sea/see terms so you thought I meant 'flooded' by a 'wave' of Targaryens ;)  ( @Wizz-The-Smith, do you approve of my football, and other, analogies? :)).  Fittingly, this all transpires at the Neck -- the gate between north and south -- and 'the Neck is the key to the kingdom', so as every key has its lock, every lock has its door; so the Neck is the door and Torrhen by kneeling is the neck that was symbolically broken in order to pave the way for the Targaryens to unite the kingdoms under one rule, in addition to saving his own people further death by blood and fire.

The 'Tor', 'door' or fool is sacrificed just like Jinglebell at the Red Wedding by Catelyn, who in that moment just before she kills him has a flashback memory of Bran and his would-be assassin.  So as @LmL has pointed out, one way to interpret the juxtaposition of that particular memory in this context is that Bran is aligned with the fool.  Will Bran, like Jinglebell, Torrhen, or the man sacrificed to the weirwood in the greenseeing dream, be the sacrificial one who will be torn apart at the neck symbolically (correspondingly, Jinglebell was sacrificed by cutting his throat) so that others may come together?

This is very good - I saw the talk about "tor" and gates, this makes a lot of sense. It seems like the sun uses the comet to open the fire moon gate, with the comet smashing into the moon (which is also the ww) to form a burning tree, a weirwood with a face, which is a gate. The one who enters could be seen as the sun, because the moon meteors that emerge from the fire moon are like the reborn sun or the child of the sun - but now black, the lion of night. 

As to your last question, I am not certain because I am still feeling this out, but I think the sacrificed person goes into the net, even as he opens it for others. This lines up with the common wisdom that you need to commit blood sacrifice to give the trees a face and allow a greenseer to use it. The tree drinks the blood, and metaphorically, the fire of the sacrifice. When the solar figure trying to enter the net - Tyrion, in the Sansa wedding example - uses the fool's sacrifice to enter the net and set the tree on fire (draping Sansa fire moon with a red and gold lion cloak), there is now 2 people or presences in the net, plus the original tree mind, if there is such a thing as a distinct entity. Remember, I keep finding signs of a fight inside the net, so we need to people in there anyway. 

19 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

LmL-- you obviously don't read my poetry thread in any great detail (apart from gatecrashing with Metallica collaborations and 'yoda-style-haiku'...;)

ETA:  So 'slipping inside a rock' is 'singing the song of stones' --

Skinchanging the comet, yeah baby!

I do read most of it, but I must have missed this one, I confess. I figured I wasn't the first to figure this out by any means - it was more of an "in case anyone didn't know" type of thing :) Great write-up on your part!  I just wonder what casterly is supposed to represent. Fire moon? Comet? Hard to say. They do have the "stone garden inside," with a "twisted" weirwood. At the very least, I do think we can say that Lann was skinchanging lions, absolutely.

And that leads me to the butchery of the Landal theory, which never felt satisfying anyway.  This is the age of heroes we are supposedly talking about! Lann comes from the east! One of the gemstone emperors Dany saw in her vision had eyes of jade and hair of gold, silver and platinum. Jade was obviously a very important symbol, and continues to be in the east, so the jade emperor (or empress) should be an important figure... and it's one of the four Dany sees. The Lannisters are always described as having gold hair - much is made of it. Valyrian hair is silver, gold, and platinum white, although the emphasis seems to be on silver with the Targs.  But Lann - gold hair (which he stole from the sun, fire of the gods of course) and jade eyes, coming from the east... he's a skinchanger.... Tywin's eyes are green flecked with gold, giving us a whiff of the cotf.  

Lann comes from the Great Empire of the Dawn, who also seem to have left descendants north and south of the Lannisters at the Iron Islands, Oldtown, and Starfall. That seems to be the part of Westeros they made contact with, so it's absolutely plausible that Lann is a 'Geodawnian,' and in fact I'd say it makes more sense than him being an Andal thousands of years before the Andals came, and with the Andals not being skinchangers. Stupid Andals. 

As for skinchanging the comet, I think you will like my analysis of the Stallion Who Mounts the World, although it seems like it is getting squeezed out of this episode I am finishing now. It's going to be better as it's own deal. Basically, I am going to show extensive greenseer symbolism / flying into space symbolism with Dany riding Drogon, using the stallion metaphor. Then, in the next episode, I will introduce your green see metaphor, and we will go right back to the same Dany scenes and show an entirely new layer of greenseer symbolism. It's going to be lovely. :)

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2 hours ago, GloubieBoulga said:

two scenes related to the Starks : 

- first one is one vision of the House of the Undying, where a king with a wolf's head is presiding a feast of deads : 

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Farther on she came upon a feast of corpses. Savagely slaughtered, the feasters lay strewn across overturned chairs and hacked trestle tables, asprawl in pools of congealing blood. Some had lost limbs, even heads. Severed hands clutched bloody cups, wooden spoons, roast fowl, heels of bread. In a throne above them sat a dead man with the head of a wolf. He wore an iron crown and held a leg of lamb in one hand as a king might hold a scepter, and his eyes followed Dany with mute appeal.(Daenerys IV, ACOK)

Pieces of corpses are on the tables and in the cups, and it seems that the convives are in the same time the meat and the drink. Also the lamb that the king has in hand as a scepter can be interpreted as a symbolic piece of human corpse, the result of a sacrifice, because of the recurrent link in the saga between victims and sheeps/lamb (see the Craster's chapters and the allusions to his possible cannibalism)

- second : the last vision of Bran throw the weirwood of Winterfell : 

 
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Then, as he watched, a bearded man forced a captive down onto his knees before the heart tree. A white-haired woman stepped toward them through a drift of dark red leaves, a bronze sickle in her hand.
"No," said Bran, "no, don't," but they could not hear him, no more than his father had. The woman grabbed the captive by the hair, hooked the sickle round his throat, and slashed. And through the mist of centuries the broken boy could only watch as the man's feet drummed against the earth … but as his life flowed out of him in a red tide, Brandon Stark could taste the blood.(Bran III, ADWD)

 

 

This one suggest that the blood of the sacrificed is passed in the veins of the Starks. Perhaps the wolf's blood come from him and was "stolen" in a kind of way (like Lann the Clever is said steeling the golden hairs of the sun)

Hi Gloubie!  :)

It seems you are getting closer to answering your question and writing that brilliant essay!

Just a quick observation, did you notice that the sad 'wolf man' in the dream looks at the dreamer with 'mute appeal' -- those are the exact same words used to describe Jinglebell looking at Catelyn...'the lackwit looked at her with mute appeal.'  I think the 'mute appeal' intimates the dangerous secret -- that may not speak its name -- lying like a monster (or bastard!) at the very origin of Winterfell and the Starks, which you've been suggesting lies at the heart of the mystery of the saga, in general.

Here are the three quotes containing the 'code phrase' -- 'mute appeal':

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A Game of Thrones - Catelyn II

The look Ned gave her was anguished. "You know I cannot take him south. There will be no place for him at court. A boy with a bastard's name … you know what they will say of him. He will be shunned."

Catelyn armored her heart against the mute appeal in her husband's eyes. "They say your friend Robert has fathered a dozen bastards himself."

"And none of them has ever been seen at court!" Ned blazed. "The Lannister woman has seen to that. How can you be so damnably cruel, Catelyn? He is only a boy. He—"

 

A Clash of Kings - Daenerys IV

In one room, a beautiful woman sprawled naked on the floor while four little men crawled over her. They had rattish pointed faces and tiny pink hands, like the servitor who had brought her the glass of shade. One was pumping between her thighs. Another savaged her breasts, worrying at the nipples with his wet red mouth, tearing and chewing.

Farther on she came upon a feast of corpses. Savagely slaughtered, the feasters lay strewn across overturned chairs and hacked trestle tables, asprawl in pools of congealing blood. Some had lost limbs, even heads. Severed hands clutched bloody cups, wooden spoons, roast fowl, heels of bread. In a throne above them sat a dead man with the head of a wolf. He wore an iron crown and held a leg of lamb in one hand as a king might hold a scepter, and his eyes followed Dany with mute appeal.

She fled from him, but only as far as the next open door. I know this room, she thought. She remembered those great wooden beams and the carved animal faces that adorned them. And there outside the window, a lemon tree! The sight of it made her heart ache with longing. It is the house with the red door, the house in Braavos. No sooner had she thought it than old Ser Willem came into the room, leaning heavily on his stick. "Little princess, there you are," he said in his gruff kind voice. "Come," he said, "come to me, my lady, you're home now, you're safe now." His big wrinkled hand reached for her, soft as old leather, and Dany wanted to take it and hold it and kiss it, she wanted that as much as she had ever wanted anything. Her foot edged forward, and then she thought, He's dead, he's dead, the sweet old bear, he died a long time ago. She backed away and ran.

 

A Storm of Swords - Catelyn VII

Lord Walder snorted. "And why would I let him do that?"

She pressed the blade deeper into Jinglebell's throat. The lackwit rolled his eyes at her in mute appeal. A foul stench assailed her nose, but she paid it no more mind than she did the sullen ceaseless pounding of that drum, boom doom boom doom boom doom. Ser Ryman and Black Walder were circling round her back, but Catelyn did not care. They could do as they wished with her; imprison her, rape her, kill her, it made no matter. She had lived too long, and Ned was waiting. It was Robb she feared for. "On my honor as a Tully," she told Lord Walder, "on my honor as a Stark, I will trade your boy's life for Robb's. A son for a son." Her hand shook so badly she was ringing Jinglebell's head.

Boom, the drum sounded, boom doom boom doom. The old man's lips went in and out. The knife trembled in Catelyn's hand, slippery with sweat. "A son for a son, heh," he repeated. "But that's a grandson . . . and he never was much use."

And then this similar scene, in which Bran is the one watching in mute appeal:

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A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

Then, as he watched, a bearded man forced a captive down onto his knees before the heart tree. A white-haired woman stepped toward them through a drift of dark red leaves, a bronze sickle in her hand.

"No," said Bran, "no, don't," but they could not hear him, no more than his father had. The woman grabbed the captive by the hair, hooked the sickle round his throat, and slashed. And through the mist of centuries the broken boy could only watch as the man's feet drummed against the earth … but as his life flowed out of him in a red tide, Brandon Stark could taste the blood.

This might be one of GRRM's ambiguous sentence constructions.  'As his life flowed out of him...' could almost refer just as well to Bran as to the man being sacrificed.

I think the man being sacrificed is another Brandon!

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22 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

lol. Sorry. Walking a mile in someone's shoe is warging a person.

Yes, @ravenous reader's inclusion of the slipper in her analysis explained it well, I see what you're tlaking about. Makes me think of Dany losing a slipper when she rode Drogon from Daznak's, the slippers she was given as a gift, some hanged men with one shoe, that kind of thing.

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3 minutes ago, LmL said:

Yes, @ravenous reader's inclusion of the slipper in her analysis explained it well, I see what you're tlaking about. Makes me think of Dany losing a slipper when she rode Drogon from Daznak's, the slippers she was given as a gift, some hanged men with one shoe, that kind of thing.

I edited the comment to include some stuff. 

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2 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

A Game of Thrones - Catelyn II

The look Ned gave her was anguished. "You know I cannot take him south. There will be no place for him at court. A boy with a bastard's name … you know what they will say of him. He will be shunned."

Catelyn armored her heart against the mute appeal in her husband's eyes. "They say your friend Robert has fathered a dozen bastards himself."

"And none of them has ever been seen at court!" Ned blazed. "The Lannister woman has seen to that. How can you be so damnably cruel, Catelyn? He is only a boy. He—"

Oh, very interesting last hero math here. Jon is the 13th, the LH, and Bobby's bastards are the 12. That speaks of the LH's 12 companions being children of Garth, while the LH was a child of AA / Grey King.  I have to say, I have suspected that the LH's 12 were the children of Garth for more than a year - the 12 notable children of Garth the Green in TWOIAF are code for the zodiac, and 11 of the 12 zodiac signs are greek legends about human-animal hybrids who died valiantly. Those stories are full of skinchanging type ideas, although sometimes you have to look to older zodiac ideas to get it. @Pain killer Jane, this is what I have been leading up to with my patreon zodiac thing - now that we are one slot away from being filled, I will do that essay and then everyone with a sign will feel a tiny bit cooler, ha.  Anyway, the meaning seems to be that the LH's 12 are green men, likely undead green men - doesn't someone have a theory about that?  But with @Crowfood's Daughter notion of the two bothers, which compliments my own ideas of the greek summer king and red winter king as AA and Garth, and this scene here... maybe the LH was the son of AA, while the companions were garth children. Now of course the idea is that AA and Garth are "brothers," but we don't know how literal that is or how many people we are really talking about. It makes sense though. 

Also, there is a 14th figure, the killer. He sacrifices the other 13 so they can be reborn, and possibly raises them. Resurrected Renly slew Guyard Morrigen ("the green") and a dozen other valiant knights. Resurrected Renly is the fiery AA reborn, killing the green LH and his 12. It's a similar pattern. 

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35 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

seamed, windburnt face

That 'seamed' is not a coincidence, and again a demonstration of what I said above, namely  that the person himself is the seam, the fabric, the gate, the one who is opened and closed, and torn.  Seams has also located places where people shed 'tears' as symbolic tears (in the sense of 'rips') in the magical landscape.  

Basically, the 'seamed face' is an example of Seams' seams pun in action, whereby the seam represents a magic portal, as in when Jojen says the Night Fort 'seems' an old place:

This great thread explores a lot of the hidden 'gateway'/'portal' associations you've noticed of late.  It was also the initial inspiration for @Wizz-The-Smith's hollow hills formulation.  

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3 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

That 'seamed' is not a coincidence, and again what I said above that the person himself is the seam, the fabric, the gate, the one who is opened and closed, and torn.  Seams has also located places where people shed 'tears' as symbolic tears (in the sense of 'rips') in the magical landscape.  

Basically, the 'seamed face' is an example of Seams' seams pun in action, whereby the seam represents a magic portal, as in when Jojen says the Night Fort 'seems' an old place:

It makes sense for a Septon to be a custodian of the gate, a seam, because he is a man of god. They are supposed to act as intermediaries anyway, it's in their nature. Generally speaking, the Faith appear to be associated with all things icy and ice moon related (their crystals and the white marble of Visenya's hill), but I think they can also symbolize the pre-destruction fire moon (there was a sept on Rhaeny's hill that was burnt by Maegor and Balerion before the dragon pit was built.. and then burnt.)  Meribald's black horn feet are pretty great, and windburnt faces are red, correct? Does he even have a crystal? 

3 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

This great thread explores a lot of the hidden 'gateway'/'portal' associations you've noticed of late.  It was also the initial inspiration for @Wizz-The-Smith's hollow hills formulation.  

Yep, that's a great thread. Given my new idea about the portal between moons, I was thinking I should look over this thread, it's likely many of the portal locations will show the fire moon ---> ice moon transit through the underworld, like the two scenes I messaged you about.

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5 minutes ago, LmL said:

Also, there is a 14th figure, the killer. He sacrifices the other 13 so they can be reborn, and possibly raises them. Resurrected Renly slew Guyard Morrigen ("the green") and a dozen other valiant knights. Resurrected Renly is the fiery AA reborn, killing the green LH and his 12. It's a similar pattern. 

Agree.  Agree Fiery (Cain, Grim Reaper, Lucifer, Prometheus)AA vs LH and his twelve disciples.  

I am still seeing brothers here, but I think there are lots of possibilities even with this type of configuration, they could be Half-brothers (maybe one bastard? hence all the talk about how evil and untrustworthy bastards are in the current storyline), good-brothers (brothers in law, grey king married a Mermaid and there is always talk about the woman in the AA tales). If the Amethyst Empress is important in the Long Night storyline, maybe she is the key to their relation.  I also see the possibility of a brotherhood of some sort such as the Night's watch or maybe the Order of the Green hand, maybe the Green men is a brotherhood of some sort.   

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15 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

I edited the comment to include some stuff. 

Yes, I see that, great quotes. I wonder what the meaning of Dany losing one slipper in the flight, and then later tossing the other one because it's no use having only one? We can't get rid of both moons, that would be bad. We need a remnant of the ice moon to survive (and I think it will, due to symbolism).  I wonder. What's your opinion?

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@ravenous reader, @Pain killer Jane, regarding who goes into the ww net and how many, consider the three severed heads of the NW brothers whose eyes were cut out by the Weeper. Those heads were mounted in spears of ash, creating the image of a weirwood - ash tree with a bloody face weeping blood.  It also shows us a smoking meteor landing - the head of a bleeding star trailing ash - and finally, the column of rising ash and smoke that came from the impact location. There were three heads: Garth Greyfeather (green garth turning grey), Black Jack Bulwer (associated with drinking blood and bulls horns via the origins of House Bulwer), and Hairy Hal. Hairy Hal sounds like a wild man of the woods type, he might be the fool / cotf / enabler / gatekeeper / custodian. Garth is the sacrifice. The demonic bull is AA reborn. They all go into the net. Three heads of the dragon? An equivalent? 

Thoughts?

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@ravenous reader, consider these ash spears with bloody heads on them, Hotah's "ash and iron wife,"or Oberyn's ashwood spear mounted by an oily black blade. These are more examples of a weirwood hilt for a black meteor weapon. The ash wood is synonymous with weirwood, so... it's Longclaw symbolism. This could easily line up with using the weirwood to steer the comet or the reborn meteor, either one. 

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57 minutes ago, LmL said:

Yes, I see that, great quotes. I wonder what the meaning of Dany losing one slipper in the flight, and then later tossing the other one because it's no use having only one? We can't get rid of both moons, that would be bad. We need a remnant of the ice moon to survive (and I think it will, due to symbolism).  I wonder. What's your opinion?

Do you think it will be a quarter moon that will survive?

As to Dany's shoes, it sounds like a reference to the song The Queen Took Off her Sandal, the King took off her Crown. If the shoes are referencing skinchanging, the significance in the Queen and the King taking off their objects of power seems to be giving up power. I know the song is usually sung during a bedding and doesn't Tyrion say something about being the same in dark which is similar to what the first Daenerys said about the children at the Water Gardens. 

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37 minutes ago, LmL said:

@ravenous reader, @Pain killer Jane, regarding who goes into the ww net and how many, consider the three severed heads of the NW brothers whose eyes were cut out by the Weeper. Those heads were mounted in spears of ash, creating the image of a weirwood - ash tree with a bloody face weeping blood.  It also shows us a smoking meteor landing - the head of a bleeding star trailing ash - and finally, the column of rising ash and smoke that came from the impact location. There were three heads: Garth Greyfeather (green garth turning grey), Black Jack Bulwer (associated with drinking blood and bulls horns via the origins of House Bulwer), and Hairy Hal. Hairy Hal sounds like a wild man of the woods type, he might be the fool / cotf / enabler / gatekeeper / custodian. Garth is the sacrifice. The demonic bull is AA reborn. They all go into the net. Three heads of the dragon? An equivalent? 

Thoughts?

I like this concept of the three. Well it fits with Maester Cressen standing in between the the hellhound and the wyvern. Maester Cressen is Black Jack Bulwer, the Wyvern is Garth Greyfeather and the Hellhound is Hairy Hal or something like that because remember that all three stand on a wall or a hinge. I know for sure that Maester Cressen and Black Jack are equivalents since Maester Cressen died with Patchface's horned helm on him. 

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