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What if Tyrells


UFT

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-The Westerlands would be fighting a war on two fronts against Robb and Mace.

-Renly would have only had the Stormlands in his host when Cat goes to meet with him 

-No Reach coming to the aid of Kings landing at the battle of the blackwater

That scenario completely alter how the Wot5K develops for example:

- Stannis is sitting on the Iron Throne after the battle of the Blackwater

- Cersei Joffrey Tommen and Myrcella have been executed by Stannis 

- Robb never needs to send Theon away because the Reach is already distracting the Westerlands.

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4 hours ago, UFT said:

followed robb's example and named mace king of the reach? instead of trying to take royalty via marriage to renly.

 

The Tyrells are the biggest players in Westeros. They have
a-    The biggest army in Westeros, which is lead by a great general in Tarly. 
b-    They feed most Westeros (including KL) 
c-     They are loved by almost everybody including Dorne. 
d-    Mace has two sons and a daughter to marry off. That’s quite a boost

If you change such big player’s stance then most probably the whole scenario of the war would change. 


A-    In the present timeline most of the Tyrells bannermen stayed in line to their Lord. Would they do the same if Mace decides to crown himself? The Tyrells legitimacy relies heavily around the fact that the iron throne granted them the title of LPs. If the Tyrells get rid of that then their very legitimacy over the Reach would fall like a sand castle. Mace would find himself having to negotiate with his bannermen in a bid to keep them in line and away from the Lannister’s reach. The latter can offer the major houses the chance of seeing their daughter marry Joffrey or the LP role in the Reach. That’s quite tempting


B-    Assuming that Mace does manage to convince the remaining Lords to remain under his rule.  Would Renly still rebel against the crown if he didn’t had the Tyrells backing him up? 20k is certainly not enough to win the darn thing. With both Renly and Tywin being great negotiators I am pretty sure that some sort of deal could be sealed between them. Tywin might offer Renly a big chunk of the Reach in exchange of him bending the knee


C-     – Would the Vale remain neutral under such circumstances? Baelish had Lysa wrapped around his erm, little fingers and with Tywin in desperate need of troops, the temptation of them thrashing a deal is reasonably high. Baelish might beg Lysa to ‘save him’, which in turn would see the knights of the Vale taking the crown’s side. That would of course come at a price which is way bigger then Harrenhal and the LP of the Riverlands. 


D-    The war might end up being fought in the Reach as hunger starts biting in Westeros. That’s bad news for the Tyrells as their wealth happen to be above ground. As said they do have the biggest army in Westeros. However they also share many borders. Lannisters can attack from the west, the crownlands from the east and the Baratheons from the South. 
In my opinion the Tyrells are better off in the role of King Makers rather than Kings themselves.

If you ask me, they should have remained neutral during the war. That would have allowed the stag, the lion and the wolf to rip one another. Meanwhile they should use the time to convince Danny to return, possibly with some support from the Martells. Danny could give Willas legitimacy over the crown. The Martells would probably settle with Loras marrying Arrianne in a matriarchal marriage + a real chance of taking their revenge over the Lannisters. Who knows, at time goes by, a cornered wolf or Stag might also be willing to bend the knee to Danny in exchange of a pardon + reassurance that Danny won’t go full dragon rage against them (a marriage tie between Margaery and Robb/Renly?) 
 

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I think Renly would sooner have turned the Stormlands over to Mace Tyrell than Tywin Lannister.

Also, Robb would still need Theon to get the Ironborn on his side, since the Reach wouldn't distract the Westerlands in any way, they would just fortify their own territory.

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King Puff Fish would likely have screwed something up, but Stannis would presumably have won the battle of Blackwater, Cersei and probably her children would likely be dead, and Tywin couldn't hope to compete militarily, and the Tyrell aren't naive like the north end for him to kill with quills and ravens.

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Assuming their bannermen don't revolt in indignation and shock, I guess Renly would still try to marry Margaery and make a deal with the Tyrells: They help him win the Iron Throne and they'll get Margaery as Queen of Westeros and he'll respect their independence to a certain degree. So the Reach would be a new Dorne, basically. 

Now, Mace would most likely say yes, in which case not a lot changes: Melisandre kills Renly, the Lannisters make the Tyrells a similar offer, etc. 

But Mace could say no. It's Renly who needs the Reach, not the other way around. So he could come to the conclusion that the surest way to keep his independence would be to enter an alliance with Robb and Balon and let Renly and Stannis duke it out with the Lannisters for the increasingly worthless throne. 

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8 hours ago, UFT said:

followed robb's example and named mace king of the reach? instead of trying to take royalty via marriage to renly.

 

Then he can marry his daughter to the King in the North, because she's not in line for the crown of the Reach anyway.

And yes, this would make a big difference in the War of the 5 6 Kings.

I don't think Mace wants to be king, he just wants royalty in the family. He doesn't want the bother and responsibility of actually being in charge, because the person who is in charge is blamed when things go wrong.

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8 hours ago, UFT said:

followed robb's example and named mace king of the reach? instead of trying to take royalty via marriage to renly.

 

Renly never names himself king and Stannis gains all the stormlords.

Stannis takes King's Landing

Stannis makes peace with Robb

Stannis gains the support of the iron bank 

Stannis and Robb defeat the Lannisters and Tyrells and Greyjoys

Stannis has everyone swear allegiance to him.

Stannis prepares Westeros for the Others and kicks their asses 

GG

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Why would the Tyrell's rebel?  They sided with Renly because they doubted Joff was Robert's child.  They chose Renly over Stanis, but they had no direct claim to the throne and how could you convince all your bannermen to rebel?  There was no injustice to them or anyone in the Reach. 

 

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5 hours ago, Coolbeard the Exile said:

Renly never names himself king and Stannis gains all the stormlords.

Stannis takes King's Landing

Stannis makes peace with Robb

Stannis gains the support of the iron bank 

Stannis and Robb defeat the Lannisters and Tyrells and Greyjoys

Stannis has everyone swear allegiance to him.

Stannis prepares Westeros for the Others and kicks their asses 

GG

This sounds good to me.

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6 hours ago, Coolbeard the Exile said:

Renly never names himself king and Stannis gains all the stormlords.

Stannis takes King's Landing

Stannis makes peace with Robb

Stannis gains the support of the iron bank 

Stannis and Robb defeat the Lannisters and Tyrells and Greyjoys

Stannis has everyone swear allegiance to him.

Stannis prepares Westeros for the Others and kicks their asses 

GG


Renly won't back Stannis against Loras' family and Renly is the Lord of Storm's End. 

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16 hours ago, UFT said:

followed robb's example and named mace king of the reach? instead of trying to take royalty via marriage to renly.

 

Doubtful, the Tyrells were never kings only Stewards. Why would the Reachers declare the Fat Flower king?

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16 hours ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

Assuming their bannermen don't revolt in indignation and shock, I guess Renly would still try to marry Margaery and make a deal with the Tyrells: They help him win the Iron Throne and they'll get Margaery as Queen of Westeros and he'll respect their independence to a certain degree. So the Reach would be a new Dorne, basically. 

Now, Mace would most likely say yes, in which case not a lot changes: Melisandre kills Renly, the Lannisters make the Tyrells a similar offer, etc. 

But Mace could say no. It's Renly who needs the Reach, not the other way around. So he could come to the conclusion that the surest way to keep his independence would be to enter an alliance with Robb and Balon and let Renly and Stannis duke it out with the Lannisters for the increasingly worthless throne. 

What sort of deal can Renly offer to the Tyrells though? If Mace dig his heels for a crown (either as king of the Reach or King of Westeros), then there's very little Renly could do to convince him otherwise. His army is way smaller then what the Reach can throw at him.

He's better off bending the knee to Joffrey and join forces with him. Joffrey is officially his nephew AND his king and together they might edge it. Joffrey would, of course, be forced to reward him accordingly. I can see him giving him a slice of the Reach, with his grand dad taking another slice and any Reach bannerman who remain loyal to the crown taking the rest. 

 

 

 

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14 minutes ago, Coolbeard the Exile said:

I think the Stormlords loyalties will be with Stannis if Renly is alone.

Renly is a born negotiator who secured the Tyrells and would have probably secured the Starks too if only Ned wasn't that stupid/stubborn. I am pretty sure he worked his magic with the Stormlords too.

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On 06/03/2017 at 10:41 AM, UFT said:

followed robb's example and named mace king of the reach? instead of trying to take royalty via marriage to renly.

 

Why should they? Their problem was that their hold on the Reach was (relatively speaking) shakey, so they sought a connection to the Royal House to consolidate their claim further.That's also why they wanted Sansa to marry Willas, once they had supplanted the Lannisters in King's Landing they could have retracted the Bolton's Lordship over the North and given it to Willas' second born son with Sansa, making them the LPs of two Kingdoms and relatives to the Royal House. Pretty powerful and secure.

If they declare independence they are inviting all the other Reach houses to instead side with King's Landing as well as some of their stronger bannerman, such as the Tarlys to contest their claim. So it would be detrimental to their goals.

Plus, why declare independence at all? There's no need for that.

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22 minutes ago, Coolbeard the Exile said:

I think the Stormlords loyalties will be with Stannis if Renly is alone.

 

Why? Renly is their lord and rallied two regions behind him in rebellion. Stannis is just the Lord of Dragonstone and Master of Ships. 

Penrose even lists several houses of the Reach among those that loved Renly best, if Renly has such sway in other regions why would his own vassals and retainers betray him for his stern and unlikable brother. 

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2 hours ago, devilish said:

Renly is a born negotiator who secured the Tyrells and would have probably secured the Starks too if only Ned wasn't that stupid/stubborn. I am pretty sure he worked his magic with the Stormlords too.

Renly has no chance if he makes himself king if he only has the stormlords with him and the Stormlords know that ontop of the fact that he has no claim at all. Stannis on the other hand is the rightful king and he is the best commander and he has a huge fleet.

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