Praetor Xyn

Unknown / Double Identities

120 posts in this topic

I know this has probably been discussed before, but I thought it would be fun to create a list of  characters who might not be who they appear along with people's theories on who they might be. I don't mind justifications being given, but I don't want this thread to be a back and forth debate about who someone is.

To sort things a bit, we can categorize these into unknown identities, where we know no public identity for them, and double identities, people we have a name and identity for that may have a true name and other identity we do not know.

The ones I can think of are below. Note that I'm using multiple question marks to indicate I have no idea, and undecided to indicate I haven't decided between multiple theories.

Unknown Identities:

  • The Hooded Man - Undecided
  • The Corsair King - ???
  • The Shrouded Lord - Gerion Lannister
  • Quaithe - Undecided
  • Coldhands - ???

Double Identities:

  • Septon Lemore - Ashara Dayne
  • Daario Naharis - Many believe he's Euron Greyjoy
  • Lem Lemoncloak - Ser Richard Lonmouth
  • Haldon Halfmaester - Wales Flowers
  • The Alchemist / "Pate" - Jaqen H'Ghar

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1 hour ago, Praetor Xyn said:

I know this has probably been discussed before, but I thought it would be fun to create a list of  characters who might not be who they appear along with people's theories on who they might be. I don't mind justifications being given, but I don't want this thread to be a back and forth debate about who someone is.

To sort things a bit, we can categorize these into unknown identities, where we know no public identity for them, and double identities, people we have a name and identity for that may have a true name and other identity we do not know.

The ones I can think of are below. Note that I'm using multiple question marks to indicate I have no idea, and undecided to indicate I haven't decided between multiple theories.

Unknown Identities:

  • The Hooded Man - Undecided
  • The Corsair King - ???
  • The Shrouded Lord - Gerion Lannister
  • Quaithe - Undecided
  • Coldhands - ???

Double Identities:

  • Septon Lemore - Ashara Dayne/Wenda the White Fawn/Malora Hightower/???
  • Daario Naharis - Many believe he's Euron Greyjoy/Benjen/Daario Naharis
  • Lem Lemoncloak - Ser Richard Lonmouth
  • Haldon Halfmaester - Wales Flowers

Pretty much canon at this point:

  • The Alchemist / "Pate" - Jaqen H'Ghar

Fixed that for you.

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Posted (edited)

8 hours ago, Praetor Xyn said:

I know this has probably been discussed before, but I thought it would be fun to create a list of  characters who might not be who they appear along with people's theories on who they might be. I don't mind justifications being given, but I don't want this thread to be a back and forth debate about who someone is.

To sort things a bit, we can categorize these into unknown identities, where we know no public identity for them, and double identities, people we have a name and identity for that may have a true name and other identity we do not know.

The ones I can think of are below. Note that I'm using multiple question marks to indicate I have no idea, and undecided to indicate I haven't decided between multiple theories.

Unknown Identities:

  • The Hooded Man - Undecided
  • The Corsair King - ???
  • The Shrouded Lord - Gerion Lannister
  • Quaithe - Undecided
  • Coldhands - ???

Double Identities:

  • Septon Lemore - Ashara Dayne
  • Daario Naharis - Many believe he's Euron Greyjoy who is Benjen who is Rhaegar who is Mance who is Tyrion who is Irri who is Ned who is Illyrio who is Arya who is Jory who is Dany who is Tywin who is The Green Grace who is Lancel who is Shakaz who is Tansy who is Gregor who is Cat who is Ben Plum who is Bran who is Tywin again who is Edric Dayne who is The Kindly Man who is Rickon who is Jaime who is Rodrick who is Reznak Mo Reznak who is Lyanna who is Drogo who is Varys who is Jason Mallister who is       Doran who is Jorah who is Satin who is Roose who is Alleras who is Sandor who is the Waif who is Tywin again who is Hallis Mullen who is Ser Boros who is Brienne who is Oberyn who is Ser Dontos who is Garlan Terrell who is Melisandre who is Gerold Dayne who is Lothar Frey who is Stannis who is Jon Snow who is Septon Meribald who is Leathers who is Mace Tyrell who is Wun Wun who is
    Mero who is Jeor who is Osha who is Asha who is Tywin again who is Rattleshirt who is Harys Swift who is Hosteen Frey who is The Blackfish who is Ser Loras who is Sweetrobin who is Ramsey Bolton who is Tommen who is Kojia Mo who is Donal noye who is is Dario Naharis  
  • Lem Lemoncloak - Ser Richard Lonmouth
  • Haldon Halfmaester - Wales Flowers

    Pretty much canon at this point:

  • The Alchemist / "Pate" - Jaqen H'Ghar

Fixd 

Edited by Dorian Martell's son

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28 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Fixd 

Monotonous sarcasm, unnecessary. 

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17 minutes ago, Beautiful Bloody Sword said:

Monotonous sarcasm, unnecessary. 

you haven't been here long.........

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Hooded Man = Harwin. I have gone through thinking he was many different people. However, a re-read made me think their speech patterns were similar and someone (I wish I could remember who, I like to give credit when I can) was persist in giving a good argument and convinced me.

Septa Lemore = Ashara Dayne. I am convinced on this one. It is the only answer that makes sense to me.

Daario Naharis = descendent of Daemon Blackfyre's second daughter.

Haldon Halfmaester = the maester of the Dun Fort at the time of the Defiance at Duskendale. I really have no evidence for this except there was a different maester in the Dun Fort at the time of the Defiance and could potentially be the only person left alive who could say what happened from the POV of those inside the Dun Fort.

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10 hours ago, Praetor Xyn said:

Unknown Identities:

  • The Hooded Man - Undecided
  • The Corsair King - ???

The Hooded Man : actually, I think about Rodrik Cassel who wasn't slain during the first battle of Winterfell, but took all the day to cut his hair, changed his coat/armor with another old soldier (with favorite), and prepared with a little group the ascent of the walls of Winterfell (same tactic than Theon) to take the place from the inner. 

Theon and Luwin are seing "Rodrik's corpse" from far above : they see almost the favorites. 

Ramsay's treason changed the fate, but Rodrik could have escape. That would be funny that Rodrik used same disguise tactic that Ramsay did when he was purchased. 

 

The Corsair King : many think about Euron and I ddon't think so. I really don't know, but I like imagine it will be Rodrik Harlaw the Reader ^^

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The Harpy:Hizdar/The Green Grace/The Shavepate/Unwritten Character

The Tattered Prince:???

 

 

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11 hours ago, Praetor Xyn said:

Double Identities:

  • Haldon Halfmaester - Wales Flowers

Wales Flowers? Who? I have no idea what you're talking about.

About Septa Lemore, however, I really don't think she could possibly be Ashara Dayne. Yes, it's been many years, but Ashara is described as being very, very beautiful, whereas Lemore is described as attractive, though not particularly striking. Also, Ashara has some rather prominently purple eyes, which are notably absent in the description of Lemore.

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Well I think Septa Lemore is actually Elia Martell. She cannot be Ashara who has purple eyes. Ashara of course is not dead. I think she is a courtesan in Braavos.

The hooded man could be anyone but I am guessing Lady Dustin 

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13 hours ago, Praetor Xyn said:

Unknown Identities:

  • The Hooded Man - Mance Rayder
  • The Corsair King - Dude from Essos because not everyone has to be sometone else in disguise.
  • The Shrouded Lord - Some Dude from Essos, because this isn't "Days of Our Lives"
  • Quaithe - Some Gal from Asshai, because not everthing has to be interconnected.
  • Coldhands - ???

Double Identities:

  • Septon Lemore - Septa Lemore, see above
  • Daario Naharis - Daario Naharis, because this isn't "the Bold and the Beautiful"
  • Lem Lemoncloak - Who cares? Probably nobody connected to any mystery of meaningful double identities.
  • Haldon Halfmaester - Haldon Halfmaester
  • The Alchemist / "Pate" - Jaqen H'Ghar (yeah pretty much)

Fixed

29 minutes ago, Luddagain said:

Well I think Septa Lemore is actually Elia Martell. She cannot be Ashara who has purple eyes. Ashara of course is not dead. I think she is a courtesan in Braavos.

No.

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Posted (edited)

2 hours ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

Wales Flowers? Who? I have no idea what you're talking about.

About Septa Lemore, however, I really don't think she could possibly be Ashara Dayne. Yes, it's been many years, but Ashara is described as being very, very beautiful, whereas Lemore is described as attractive, though not particularly striking. Also, Ashara has some rather prominently purple eyes, which are notably absent in the description of Lemore.

Sorry, autocorrect. Walys Flowers. The Maester at Winterfell before Lewin, the one that Lady Dustin said was responsible for Rickard Stark's Southron Ambitions.

As to Ashara's eyes, Tyrion never describes anyone's eyes anywhere else to the best of my recollection, even She's whom he loved, and he keeps thinking about Lemore, which he wouldn't do if she was merely pretty.

Edited by Praetor Xyn

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praetor

I think essentially septa Lemore is too old to be Ashara.  Remember Ashara was just a young girl newly at court at harrenall so we can probably assume she was 14/15. That makes her perhaps 34 at this point - still going to be a very beautiful woman of the same age as Cersai.

Besides Tyrion would have known purple eyes meant Targ or Dayne  or Velaryon. they would NEVER have allowed such a Targ look alike near Aegon

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10 hours ago, LindsayLohan said:

The Harpy:Hizdar/The Green Grace/The Shavepate/Unwritten Character

The Tattered Prince:???

 

 

Excellent addition recommendations, LL.

6 hours ago, Praetor Xyn said:

Sorry, autocorrect. Walys Flowers. The Maester at Winterfell before Lewin, the one that Lady Dustin said was responsible for Rickard Stark's Southron Ambitions.

As to Ashara's eyes, Tyrion never describes anyone's eyes anywhere else to the best of my recollection, even She's whom he loved, and he keeps thinking about Lemore, which he wouldn't do if she was merely pretty.

Probably not, but he would have noticed if she had purple ones, considering how important that could be in the story. We just have to wait and see on Lemore, but Ashara is not the only possibility for her.

8 hours ago, Luddagain said:

Well I think Septa Lemore is actually Elia Martell. She cannot be Ashara who has purple eyes. Ashara of course is not dead. I think she is a courtesan in Braavos.

The hooded man could be anyone but I am guessing Lady Dustin 

Have a theory on this? I'd like to see it if you do. This is the first I've seen this suggested.

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Lady Blizzard

Septa Lemore seems to be someone who cares for Aegon and is close to either Rhaegar, John Connington or Elia. She is obviously from Westeros and raised in the faith. She is a a handsome woman, over 40 years old.

My theory is by elimination. She obviously cannot be Ashara Dayne - who is too young. Ashara was a young girl at Harrenhall, still unwed. She had only just joined the court and we can more or less assume she was younger than Ned and perhaps the same age as Lyanna. We meet her roughly two years after the book starts. She would have been about 33.

If Aegon was swapped, why not Elia too. How well would Robert or even Tywin know her. Certainly not Clegane. She had been ill etc, Tywin not at court for some time, Robert barely knew her - he had been in the Vale not at KL..

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2 hours ago, Luddagain said:

Lady Blizzard

Septa Lemore seems to be someone who cares for Aegon and is close to either Rhaegar, John Connington or Elia. She is obviously from Westeros and raised in the faith. She is a a handsome woman, over 40 years old.

My theory is by elimination. She obviously cannot be Ashara Dayne - who is too young. Ashara was a young girl at Harrenhall, still unwed. She had only just joined the court and we can more or less assume she was younger than Ned and perhaps the same age as Lyanna. We meet her roughly two years after the book starts. She would have been about 33.

If Aegon was swapped, why not Elia too. How well would Robert or even Tywin know her. Certainly not Clegane. She had been ill etc, Tywin not at court for some time, Robert barely knew her - he had been in the Vale not at KL..

We've seen that babies can easily pass for other babies, undistinguishable to anybody other than the mother or wetnurse. But a Princess of Dorne and wife of the Crown Prince is a totally different thing. And what about the little girl Rhaenys? Is she the sacrificial lamb that legitimized the swap of the other two? 

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11 hours ago, Luddagain said:

Well I think Septa Lemore is actually Elia Martell. She cannot be Ashara who has purple eyes. Ashara of course is not dead. I think she is a courtesan in Braavos.

The hooded man could be anyone but I am guessing Lady Dustin 

Hey, those are both new ones!   Right On.

How come nobody has brought Varys up yet?   Is it because we are convinced we know who he is?  Who is the Northman with LSH?    

 

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BBS

The thing is that many great families especially the Dornish and also I think the Lannisters used doubles for protection. With a crazy king like Aerys, such a strategy might be very wise. It explains why Rhaenys was NOT with her mother when KL was sacked.

I would not call Rhaenys a sacrifice, since girl children were not usually in danger. Rhaenys was valuable and could be married off to one of the victors to cement a hold on the throne.  I think that Varys organised the swaps and was truly shocked at the fate of Rhaenys. I am assuming that Varys (and Elia) would have felt that should Arys win, Rhaenys would be safe and make a suitable bride for Viserys. If the rebels won, then Rhaenys could be a bride for Robert  or Jaime or Edmure or one of their sons - Robb was just five years younger - less than the gap between Tommen and Margaery. if Varys organised it, you can be he already knew that Lyanna was pregnant and unlikely to wed the future king. Thus Robert and Rhaenys - big age gap but not remarkable for the era.

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2 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Hey, those are both new ones!   Right On.

How come nobody has brought Varys up yet?   Is it because we are convinced we know who he is?  Who is the Northman with LSH?    

 

Varys is himself, though "the Spider" may be only one of his personas.

2 hours ago, Luddagain said:

BBS

The thing is that many great families especially the Dornish and also I think the Lannisters used doubles for protection. With a crazy king like Aerys, such a strategy might be very wise. It explains why Rhaenys was NOT with her mother when KL was sacked.

I would not call Rhaenys a sacrifice, since girl children were not usually in danger. Rhaenys was valuable and could be married off to one of the victors to cement a hold on the throne.  I think that Varys organised the swaps and was truly shocked at the fate of Rhaenys. I am assuming that Varys (and Elia) would have felt that should Arys win, Rhaenys would be safe and make a suitable bride for Viserys. If the rebels won, then Rhaenys could be a bride for Robert  or Jaime or Edmure or one of their sons - Robb was just five years younger - less than the gap between Tommen and Margaery. if Varys organised it, you can be he already knew that Lyanna was pregnant and unlikely to wed the future king. Thus Robert and Rhaenys - big age gap but not remarkable for the era.

Rhaenys may well have been with her mother, before she ran to her father's bedchamber to hide.

They weren't counting on Tywin's all-consuming goal to make his daughter a queen. That is probably why he ordered Rhaenys' death instead of just Aegon's. Which reminds me that Varys says something in one of the books about Elia and her babe, which is referenced often as a hint for Aegon. However, if Elia is alive that is also conclusive proof that Varys does in fact lie...something thus far unproven and a major point of contention in the Aegon v FAegon argument.

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5 hours ago, Luddagain said:

Lady Blizzard

Septa Lemore seems to be someone who cares for Aegon and is close to either Rhaegar, John Connington or Elia. She is obviously from Westeros and raised in the faith. She is a a handsome woman, over 40 years old.

My theory is by elimination. She obviously cannot be Ashara Dayne - who is too young. Ashara was a young girl at Harrenhall, still unwed. She had only just joined the court and we can more or less assume she was younger than Ned and perhaps the same age as Lyanna. We meet her roughly two years after the book starts. She would have been about 33.

If Aegon was swapped, why not Elia too. How well would Robert or even Tywin know her. Certainly not Clegane. She had been ill etc, Tywin not at court for some time, Robert barely knew her - he had been in the Vale not at KL..

I arrive at Ashara Dayne also through a process of elimination, just as you arrive at your conclusion. However, I see the evidence differently than you. We know for a fact that Septa Lemore is not who she appears to be because the book tells us directly she is not. "...She turned back to Prince Aegon. "You are not the only one who must needs hide." (ADWD-Chapter 22)

So we have a woman whose identity is hidden, but we have been told of previously in the book (GRRM wouldn't put this twist in without properly setting it up). The number of women in the book who have been described but are now missing is extremely low.

Why it is not Elia. Elia's body was presented to Robert in the throne room in front of a bunch of witnesses who could identify her. Numerous people in the story have talked about seeing Elia's body, including Thoros! Elia is unquestionably dead. Being dead she is not missing.

The argument for Septa Lemore being younger than 40 is rather thin. Ashara Dayne had gone to KL as a companion for Elia. If Elia were still alive, then she would be 43 or 44 years old. Elia was about 26-27 when she died. I think it is unlikely that Elia chose to take as her companion a woman over ten years younger than her. It is possible that Ashara could be in her mid-thirties. However, it is just as possible that Ashara would be over 40.

GRRM failing to mention the color of Lemore's eyes is not evidence for either side. What maybe evidence for GRRM manipulating Tyrion to not noticing Lemore's eyes is that he gives Tyrion Lemore's bare breasts to look at instead.

Ashara Dayne committed suicide that no one seems to have witnessed and her body was never found. Ashara might or might not be dead, but she is definitely missing.

I also think that whoever Lemore is, she is a Targaryen loyalist of long standing. Both Lemore and Haldon must be of proven their loyalty, or else JonCon would never have accepted them so close to the center of the conspiracy.

So with all the restrictions on who Lemore could be, it seems to me that only Ashara can meet them all.

 

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