Unknown / Double Identities

[Orphalesion]

On 11/03/2017 at 4:32 AM, Luddagain said:

 

Why rule out Mance being Jon's father or Robb being Brandon's son.

 

Because it's complete bullcrap. Jon is Rhaegar's and Robb is Ned's.

On 11/03/2017 at 0:47 AM, bent branch said:

No. Tyrion didn't mention the purple eyes because GRRM didn't want Tyrion to mention the purple eyes.

And that is only slightly less bullcrap...
Ashara's eyes were repeadedly said to be THE thing about her which people notice and parise about her. So we are to believe the author purposely leaves out the most striking characteristic about a character so that we have no clues at all to this supposed secret?

On 10/03/2017 at 11:28 PM, bent branch said:

She turned back to Prince Aegon. "You are not the only one who must needs hide." - Septa Lemore, ADWD - Chapter 22.

1.) Tyrion has to hide as well. 2) Jon Connington has to hide. 3) They kinda all have to hide because they are helping a pretender to the Throne and have to keep him safe and secret?

[Sigella]

On 2017-03-11 at 1:38 PM, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

"Why would he be entranced a pair of tits when there's a perfectly beautiful pair of eyes to look at?"

I am going to guess that you are not a man.

 

No I'm not.

And I doubt Tyrion didn't lift his eye's from her chest at some point or another. She WAS clothed when not bathing you know....

[hiemal]

Hmmm, here's some tinfoil: Brienne is not just the descendant of the Duncan the Tall, but the Duncan the Small- the child of the Dragonfly that alit on some Old Stones survived Summerhall and is one of the many secrets of the Sapphire Isle.

I think that the Shrouded Lord is Prince Garin of the Rhoynar.

R'hlorr is the Bloodstone Emperor.

 

 

 

[Vaedys Targaryen]

3 hours ago, hiemal said:

Hmmm, here's some tinfoil: Brienne is not just the descendant of the Duncan the Tall, but the Duncan the Small- the child of the Dragonfly that alit on some Old Stones survived Summerhall and is one of the many secrets of the Sapphire Isle.

I think that the Shrouded Lord is Prince Garin of the Rhoynar.

R'hlorr is the Bloodstone Emperor.

 

 

 

Wow, this just got me thinking: When GRRM said that we would get a descendant from Duncan, did he specifically say Duncan the Tall, or did he simply say Duncan? Because I need the full quote of that interview right now, because now I have some tinfoil going on in my head!

[bent branch]

4 hours ago, Orphalesion said:

Because it's complete bullcrap. Jon is Rhaegar's and Robb is Ned's.

And that is only slightly less bullcrap...
Ashara's eyes were repeadedly said to be THE thing about her which people notice and parise about her. So we are to believe the author purposely leaves out the most striking characteristic about a character so that we have no clues at all to this supposed secret?

1.) Tyrion has to hide as well. 2) Jon Connington has to hide. 3) They kinda all have to hide because they are helping a pretender to the Throne and have to keep him safe and secret?

You know, I see your response as actually agreeing with me. You are saying that the thing that would convince you that Septa Lemore is Ashara Dayne is the purple eyes. You say this would be a "hint". I disagree, I think Tyrion saying Septa Lemore has purple eyes would be a state-issued ID card. The thing is, many people have been putting forward many different clues as to why Septa Lemore is Ashara Dayne. Your biggest problem with these arguments is that the only "hint" you will find acceptable is the one that will reveal who she is without any question. I think GRRM didn't use this "hint" because he thought it would make it too obvious when he wasn't ready for this yet. Anyway, I am convinced that Lemore is Ashara without knowing her eye color or her age. I am convinced by all the other hints that have been put forward. The type of hints you refuse to acknowledge.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

4 minutes ago, bent branch said:

You know, I see your response as actually agreeing with me. You are saying that the thing that would convince you that Septa Lemore is Ashara Dayne is the purple eyes. You say this would be a "hint". I disagree, I think Tyrion saying Septa Lemore has purple eyes would be a state-issued ID card. The thing is, many people have been putting forward many different clues as to why Septa Lemore is Ashara Dayne. Your biggest problem with these arguments is that the only "hint" you will find acceptable is the one that will reveal who she is without any question. I think GRRM didn't use this "hint" because he thought it would make it too obvious when he wasn't ready for this yet. Anyway, I am convinced that Lemore is Ashara without knowing her eye color or her age. I am convinced by all the other hints that have been put forward. The type of hints you refuse to acknowledge.

Given that the Daynes are not the only people with purple eyes, and that we have unaccounted for Targaryens, and that Lemore is about 10 years older than Ashara should be...purple eyes would not be an absolute dead giveaway as to her identity. Throw in Aegon IV and she could be anybody from anywhere in Westeros...perhaps descended from one of Lord Butterwell's daughters.

I grant that most people who believe Ashara is alive would think of her, but Lemore could be a purple-eyed non-Dayne quite easily.

[bent branch]

27 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Given that the Daynes are not the only people with purple eyes, and that we have unaccounted for Targaryens, and that Lemore is about 10 years older than Ashara should be...purple eyes would not be an absolute dead giveaway as to her identity. Throw in Aegon IV and she could be anybody from anywhere in Westeros...perhaps descended from one of Lord Butterwell's daughters.

I grant that most people who believe Ashara is alive would think of her, but Lemore could be a purple-eyed non-Dayne quite easily.

Let me summarize my original point since it has been lost by this time. My original point was that if Septa Lemore does have a secret identity (and I believe she does), the response of the reader should be "Aha!" not "Who?" to the reveal. The only woman character who can get this type of response out of the casual reader is in my opinion Ashara Dayne. I then gave arguments as to how Lemore could be Ashara (who I believe her to be). I then stated my reasons for finding the "purple eyes" and "too young" arguments insufficient to disprove Lemore as Ashara. I will repeat these.

Even the Wiki gives Ashara's age range as between 31 and 40 years. Insisting that her age is on the lower end is defensible, but not provable. If there was convincing evidence that Ashara was on the lower end the range would not be so wide. Since I am convinced that Lemore is Ashara for other reasons, I am ignoring this weak piece of information.

Ashara's purple eyes, I have said that I think revealing Ashara's purple eyes would be too strong of clue and that is why GRRM didn't tell us the color of Ashara's eyes. You are right, there are lots of people who have purple eyes and are not Ashara Dayne. However, we don't know who they are. Thus, if GRRM HAD put in that Lemore's eyes were purple and Lemore was not Ashara Dayne, then the purple eyes would have been a red herring intending to lead people to think Lemore was Ashara when she was not.

So you see, purple eyes are too strong of clue either way. That is why I pretty much ignore them. Likewise the age is too wishy-washy of clue so I ignore it.

[Luddagain]

We DO know Septa Lemore's age is over 40 and we can guess pretty well at Ashara's age - a girl just recently at court makes her 13/14 at Harrenhall ie the same age as Lyanna and a year or so younger than Cersai.

 

i do not think GRRM is such a sh*t writer that he would have deliberately avoided mentioning her eyes.  Tyrion would have guessed a family relationship to Young Griff

 

Septa lemore is NOT Ashara Dayne.

[Rusty Winchester]

6 hours ago, bent branch said:

Let me summarize my original point since it has been lost by this time. My original point was that if Septa Lemore does have a secret identity (and I believe she does), the response of the reader should be "Aha!" not "Who?" to the reveal. The only woman character who can get this type of response out of the casual reader is in my opinion Ashara Dayne. I then gave arguments as to how Lemore could be Ashara (who I believe her to be). I then stated my reasons for finding the "purple eyes" and "too young" arguments insufficient to disprove Lemore as Ashara. I will repeat these.

Even the Wiki gives Ashara's age range as between 31 and 40 years. Insisting that her age is on the lower end is defensible, but not provable. If there was convincing evidence that Ashara was on the lower end the range would not be so wide. Since I am convinced that Lemore is Ashara for other reasons, I am ignoring this weak piece of information.

Ashara's purple eyes, I have said that I think revealing Ashara's purple eyes would be too strong of clue and that is why GRRM didn't tell us the color of Ashara's eyes. You are right, there are lots of people who have purple eyes and are not Ashara Dayne. However, we don't know who they are. Thus, if GRRM HAD put in that Lemore's eyes were purple and Lemore was not Ashara Dayne, then the purple eyes would have been a red herring intending to lead people to think Lemore was Ashara when she was not.

So you see, purple eyes are too strong of clue either way. That is why I pretty much ignore them. Likewise the age is too wishy-washy of clue so I ignore it.

I'm with you on this one bent branch. I think that Ashara Dayne makes the most sense, I haven't seen anyone else suggested who strikes me as particularly probable. When Tyrion decides she's 40+ he could also just be straight up wrong. He's examining her as someone hiding her identity, presumably that means someone highborn since no one cares if Dora the milk-maid runs off to live on a pole boat. He's likely drawing a comparable to other women he's known from court. Highborn ladies who hide from the sun and have teams of maids and servants to help them look their best.  If this is in fact Ashara Dayne, then she's spent a long time living relatively rough in the hot sun. It could easily make her appear older to Tyrion than she actually is.  Tyrion himself is only in his twenties I believe. It would be easy for him to mistake someone in their late 30s for someone in their early 40s even if this wasn't the case. I've done this myself on occasion, (fortunately not out loud) and it seems to me that the further you are from an age group the more likely you are to guess incorrectly.

I'm prepared to be wrong on this. Perhaps she is actually someone who's importance to the story has yet to be revealed. Until I see some better evidence to the contrary though, I'll continue believing this one.

[Rusty Winchester]

Thanks to this thread for correcting a mistake I'd made in my own head. I'd always believed that the Corsair King = Aurane Waters. When no one suggested that I poked around on the wiki. It had never occurred to me that the Corsair King was actually mentioned in Storm of Swords before he'd run off.  Although a part of me wants to hang on to this one since it's specifically referenced that there have been many Corsair Kings. Maybe he just went and took on over for the previous one.

[Knight Of Winter]

9 hours ago, bent branch said:

Ashara's purple eyes, I have said that I think revealing Ashara's purple eyes would be too strong of clue and that is why GRRM didn't tell us the color of Ashara's eyes. You are right, there are lots of people who have purple eyes and are not Ashara Dayne. However, we don't know who they are. Thus, if GRRM HAD put in that Lemore's eyes were purple and Lemore was not Ashara Dayne, then the purple eyes would have been a red herring intending to lead people to think Lemore was Ashara when she was not.

So you see, purple eyes are too strong of clue either way. That is why I pretty much ignore them. Likewise the age is too wishy-washy of clue so I ignore it.

In which case if's an awful narrative foul on GRRM's part. Haunting purple eyes are Ashara's most distinguishing feature, and Tyrion is established as quite a perceptive observer. For him to deliberately act out of character and ignore Lemore's (if she's Ashara) mesmerizing beautiful purple eyes for the sake of maintaing a mystery is sign of a bad writing. Else I could claim that Hooded Man is actually Penny is disguise. Theon just forgot to mention HM's dwarfism.

In any case, my opinion:

• The Hooded Man - random guard from WIntrefell trying to stay warm
• The Corsair King - The Corsair King
• The Shrouded Lord - noone of importance
• Quaithe - not sure, but not Ashara/Mel/FutureDany
• Coldhands - warged wight. Or maybe ressurected NW member
• Septon Lemore - Lemore
• Daario Naharis - noone other than Daario Naharis
• Lem Lemoncloak - Lem. No secret identites here
• Haldon Halfmaester - this is a secret identity?
• The Alchemist / "Pate" - Jaqen
• Melisandre - I like the theory that she's daughter of Bloodraven and Shiera Seastar
• Rugen - Varys

[Cataldo]

On 10/03/2017 at 11:47 PM, bent branch said:

No. Tyrion didn't mention the purple eyes because GRRM didn't want Tyrion to mention the purple eyes.

grasping straws

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

12 hours ago, bent branch said:

My original point was that if Septa Lemore does have a secret identity (and I believe she does), the response of the reader should be "Aha!" not "Who?" to the reveal.

Yeah, GRRM wouldn't want to waste such a revelation on an insignificant character. Remember when it turned out that "Griff" was the mysterious and interesting Jon Connington, about whom the reader had been wondering for 4 books already?

[Sigella]

On 2017-03-11 at 0:47 AM, bent branch said:

No. Tyrion didn't mention the purple eyes because GRRM didn't want Tyrion to mention the purple eyes. You've made up this arbitrary rule that GRRM has to reveal everything important in the story at the point you want him to. That isn't true. Authors are allowed to reveal only as much as they want to at a certain time. How they tell their story is their prerogative. If GRRM wanted us to know the color of Lemore's eyes he would have revealed that. Your insistence that GRRM not revealing the color of the eyes means they are not purple is completely arbitrary on your part. The only FACT here is that we don't know the color of the eyes because GRRM has not revealed the color of the eyes.

When did I make up this rule?

Also "Lemore having hauntingly purple eyes that Tyrion simply doesn't mention" would be off the hook clumsy writing. And I happen to think that GRRM is not as clumsy a writer as all that.

[Orphalesion]

15 hours ago, bent branch said:

You know, I see your response as actually agreeing with me. You are saying that the thing that would convince you that Septa Lemore is Ashara Dayne is the purple eyes. You say this would be a "hint". I disagree, I think Tyrion saying Septa Lemore has purple eyes would be a state-issued ID card.

Uh....were  you not paying attention when Daenerys is told about how many people in Essos have purple eyes? It's stands to reason that they occasionally appear in Westeros as well, due to the Targaryens.

As others said, not mentioning the most striking feature about a person in order to keep a mystery running, would be very clumsy. This isn't in the same league as Ned no explicitly thinking "Well there goes my nephew" this would just be a hint.

The "hints" I apparently "ignore" are 1) her having stretchmarks, which means absolutely nothing. 2)her hinting that Aegon isn't the only one who has to hide, which can mean a million things, including her hiding that she is a Septa in Volantis (and possibly other citites) The whole Shy Maid hides itself and has done so for some time.

[bent branch]

7 hours ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

Yeah, GRRM wouldn't want to waste such a revelation on an insignificant character. Remember when it turned out that "Griff" was the mysterious and interesting Jon Connington, about whom the reader had been wondering for 4 books already?

I get your point. There are a lot of readers that don't understand what is going on in the story. For instance, Marwyn is another character that is talked about in the series before we meet him. And large numbers of people think he is going to teach Dany about dragons, never mind his area of expertise is magic and prophecy. Tyrion, who is the expert on dragons, is going to tell Dany that Aegon is a fake, never mind that Tyrion believes Aegon to be real and actually likes him. So yeah, you're right there will probably be lots of people who say "who?" no matter how well GRRM sets it up. They will then blame their lack of understanding on "bad writing".

[Jasta11]

On 3/9/2017 at 6:56 PM, Renly's Banana said:

Every time I see somebody bring up this "Gerion Lannister is the Shrouded Lord" thing, my eyes roll so hard that they fall off my damn skull.
I know it's fun to theorize about wild stuff and the long wait 'till the next book isn't helping but jesus christ people. There's like negative 0000000.1% proof for this one. Not everyone that disappears from our story is some hidden powerful figure waiting to come back. The Shrouded Lord is literally just a myth, like the lion of the night or any other god/devil in our story.
And even if he WAS someone we knew.. what purpose would he serve to Tyrion's story? He's not gonna sail back down the Rhoyne any time soon. 

Same thing with the Corsair King. He's just a background figure we hear about to flesh out this new area of the world. There is no set Corsair King, in fact there have been a lot of them. They're just some pirate whose goal seems to be raiding random ports throughout the world.

As for Quaithe, she does appear to be a more prominent character, but in the end, I don't think she'll turn out to be anyone from Westeros' past. Quaithe is just Quaithe, a sorceress that took notice of Dany and is taking an interest in her. It's possible that she's been working with Marwyn. In fact she may have been the one to first alert him about Dany through the glass candles, but that's really it. 
Her being Ashara Dayne or Shiera Seastar or whoever else would just be lame.

I have the same reaction with most hidden identities, to be honest. I already find that Martin uses the trope a bit too much, but fans take it to a ridiculously absurd level sometimes. Not every minor/mysterious character needs to be some super important figure in disguise.

[Orphalesion]

1 minute ago, Jasta11 said:

I have the same reaction with most hidden identities, to be honest. I already find that Martin uses the trope a bit too much, but fans take it to a ridiculously absurd level sometimes. Not every minor/mysterious character needs to be some super important figure in disguise.

A-Men.

I'm always getting confused by this almost schizophrenic opinion the fandom seems to have of ASoIaF:

1) It's a gritty and realistic tale that must not use un-deconstructed tropes or "cliches" (which also gets taken waaaaay to far)

2) Everybody in the story is a secret bastard/somebody else in disguise and everything in the series is an overwrought metaphor of some hidden mystery (possibly including reptilian aliens on the black hole moon)

So what is it now?

[Dorian Martell's son]

23 minutes ago, Jasta11 said:

I have the same reaction with most hidden identities, to be honest. I already find that Martin uses the trope a bit too much, but fans take it to a ridiculously absurd level sometimes. Not every minor/mysterious character needs to be some super important figure in disguise.

 

18 minutes ago, Orphalesion said:

A-Men.

I'm always getting confused by this almost schizophrenic opinion the fandom seems to have of ASoIaF:

1) It's a gritty and realistic tale that must not use un-deconstructed tropes or "cliches" (which also gets taken waaaaay to far)

2) Everybody in the story is a secret bastard/somebody else in disguise and everything in the series is an overwrought metaphor of some hidden mystery (possibly including reptilian aliens on the black hole moon)

So what is it now?

Man, you two should have seen the Bran time travel tread and the low grade warging. Rationality is in short supply here 

[Orphalesion]

6 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

 

Man, you two should have seen the Bran time travel tread and the low grade warging. Rationality is in short supply here 

Oh man, warging and glamour, two other things that get employed in an attempt to justify pretty much every halfbacken theory. Direwolf? Bloodraven warged into it!

And then the idea that Mellsiandre HAS to be Bloodraven's and Sheara's daughter...I mean geez, can't even a woman from the other side of the known world just be a woman from the other side of the world? Does she have to be the super-secret daughter of some Targaryen?

And the only other woman we know from Asshai naturally HAS to be Mellisandre's mother. Or is Quaithe her daughter now? it's difficult to keep up...

Let's just say Quaithe is Mellisandre's mother and daughter and Ashara in disguise. that makes everyone happy.

Also I'd like to see some more interesting theories:

Why can't Daario be Ashara in disguise? And Septa Lemore is Benjen. 

But seriously I bet Euron and Darrio could stand next to each other and people would still argue they are each other in disguise.