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Unknown / Double Identities


Praetor Xyn

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4 minutes ago, Orphalesion said:

Oh man, warging and glamour, two other things that get employed in an attempt to justify pretty much every halfbacken theory. Direwolf? Bloodraven warged into it!

And then the idea that Mellsiandre HAS to be Bloodraven's and Sheara's daughter...I mean geez, can't even a woman from the other side of the known world just be a woman from the other side of the world? Does she have to be the super-secret daughter of some Targaryen?

And the only other woman we know from Asshai naturally HAS to be Mellisandre's mother. Or is Quaithe her daughter now? it's difficult to keep up...

Let's just say Quaithe is Mellisandre's mother and daughter and Ashara in disguise. that makes everyone happy.

Also I'd like to see some more interesting theories:

Why can't Daario be Ashara in disguise? And Septa Lemore is Benjen. 

But seriously I bet Euron and Darrio could stand next to each other and people would still argue they are each other in disguise.

BLoodraven wargs everything and everyone! Future Bran causes everything. Look between the lines even when the lines say what you suggest can't happen! 
I like the Idea of Quaithe being Mel's mom, daughter and Ashara. But Dario and Euron too. and her magic visions mean that Dario and Euron can be seen together and still be the same person warged by bloodraven and future bran! It makes so much sense now!

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8 minutes ago, Orphalesion said:

Oh man, warging and glamour, two other things that get employed in an attempt to justify pretty much every halfbacken theory. Direwolf? Bloodraven warged into it!

And then the idea that Mellsiandre HAS to be Bloodraven's and Sheara's daughter...I mean geez, can't even a woman from the other side of the known world just be a woman from the other side of the world? Does she have to be the super-secret daughter of some Targaryen?

And the only other woman we know from Asshai naturally HAS to be Mellisandre's mother. Or is Quaithe her daughter now? it's difficult to keep up...

Let's just say Quaithe is Mellisandre's mother and daughter and Ashara in disguise. that makes everyone happy.

Also I'd like to see some more interesting theories:

Why can't Daario be Ashara in disguise? And Septa Lemore is Benjen. 

But seriously I bet Euron and Darrio could stand next to each other and people would still argue they are each other in disguise.

 

Spot on!

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I have no strong opinion about Lemore but let me put in a word in favor of the Ashara Dayne theory.  Lemore is clearly not a nobody, because nobodies don't get hired to help hidden princes.  That is, she must have an interesting backstory linking her to Aegon, and the Ashara story makes as much sense as any.

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6 minutes ago, Lady bonehead said:

I have no strong opinion about Lemore but let me put in a word in favor of the Ashara Dayne theory.  Lemore is clearly not a nobody, because nobodies don't get hired to help hidden princes.  That is, she must have an interesting backstory linking her to Aegon, and the Ashara story makes as much sense as any.

Then why aren't there so many theories about, you know, everyone else on that ship? Lemore hardly not the only one who tutors Aegon.

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9 minutes ago, Jasta11 said:

Then why aren't there so many theories about, you know, everyone else on that ship? Lemore hardly not the only one who tutors Aegon.

Like what a couple of greenblood orphans from DORNE are doing sailing a boat down the largest river in essos like they grew up there. 

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13 hours ago, Knight Of Winter said:

In which case if's an awful narrative foul on GRRM's part. Haunting purple eyes are Ashara's most distinguishing feature, and Tyrion is established as quite a perceptive observer. For him to deliberately act out of character and ignore Lemore's (if she's Ashara) mesmerizing beautiful purple eyes for the sake of maintaing a mystery is sign of a bad writing. Else I could claim that Hooded Man is actually Penny is disguise. Theon just forgot to mention HM's dwarfism.

In any case, my opinion:

  • The Hooded Man - random guard from WIntrefell trying to stay warm
  • The Corsair King - The Corsair King
  • The Shrouded Lord - noone of importance
  • Quaithe - not sure, but not Ashara/Mel/FutureDany
  • Coldhands - warged wight. Or maybe ressurected NW member
  • Septon Lemore - Lemore
  • Daario Naharis - noone other than Daario Naharis
  • Lem Lemoncloak - Lem. No secret identites here
  • Haldon Halfmaester - this is a secret identity?
  • The Alchemist / "Pate" - Jaqen
  • Melisandre - I like the theory that she's daughter of Bloodraven and Shiera Seastar
  • Rugen - Varys

Those two are pretty much given. We hardly even need confirmation on them.

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2 hours ago, Lady bonehead said:

I have no strong opinion about Lemore but let me put in a word in favor of the Ashara Dayne theory.  Lemore is clearly not a nobody, because nobodies don't get hired to help hidden princes.  That is, she must have an interesting backstory linking her to Aegon, and the Ashara story makes as much sense as any.

Except

1) Then who are all the other members of the Shy Maid's crew?

2) Uh, yeah actually. Due to the extreme secrecy you would want nobodys, You do not want a striking beauty on your ship whom many people from Westeros would instantly recognize. Septa Robes (which she discards anyway in cities in order not to be recognized as a Septa) can only hide so much. The Griffs dye their hair blue just so nobody would connect them to Jon Connington and a Targaryen, Ashara would have no such luxury since dark hair is difficult to dye and sunglasses haven't been invented yet to hide her legendary, striking eyes.

So having Ashara around would be a liability IF her eyes are really so stirking that the slightest mention of them would be the qeuivalent of "giving the reader her ID card"

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While the identities of Yandry, Ysilla, and Rolly are dealt with in a straight forward fashion, there are reasons given in the text to question the backgrounds and identies of Lemore and Haldon. This is a longer quote from Chapter 22 - ADWD (This is in response to Aegon wanting to go ashore):
 

Quote

 

"Even the bravest of your forebears kept his Kingsguard close about him in times of peril." Lemore had changed out of her septa's robes into garb more befitting the wife or daughter of a prosperous merchant. Tyrion watched her closely. He had sniffed out the truth beneath the dyed of Griff and Young Griff easily enough, and Yandry and Ysilla seemed to be no more than they claimed to be, whilst Duck was somewhat less. Lemore, though ... Who is she, really? Why is she here? Not for gold, I'd judge. What is this prince to her? Was she ever a true septa?

Haldon took note of her change of garb as well. "What are we to make of this sudden loss of faith? I preferred you in your septa's robes, Lemore."

"I preferred her naked," said Tyrion.

Lemore gave him a reproachful look. "That is because you have a wicked soul. Septa's robes scream of Westeros and might draw unwelcome eyes to us." She turned back to Prince Aegon. "You are not the only one who must needs hide."

 

So, there you have it. The author himself strongly invites the reader to question Lemore's identity, including whether she is a septa at all.

As far as Haldon is concerned, it is not really his identity that is called into question. He is Haldon, the single name he had as a student at the Citadel. The maesters hide their pasts behind this single name, as pointed out by Lady Dustin. Instead, what needs to be revealed for Haldon is his past. How did he come to be here? Haldon's story is not shared openly, but there is reason to believe Tyrion was told after winning the cyvasse game. But ... oh my, oh my... GRRM wouldn't actually withhold information that he wasn't ready to share yet, would he?

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Maybe Lemore is Melara. She's about the right age, she's supposed to have drowned, we never did see a body, and she could probably find a reason or two to have a personal interest in anything that would really ruin Cersei's day.

I am not serious. But I don't think she's Ashara, either. Tyrion conveniently not noticing her purple eyes would be blatant obfuscation on the order of conveniently not noticing stripes when encountering a horse that turns out to be a zebra.

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1 hour ago, Orphalesion said:

Except

1) Then who are all the other members of the Shy Maid's crew?

2) Uh, yeah actually. Due to the extreme secrecy you would want nobodys, You do not want a striking beauty on your ship whom many people from Westeros would instantly recognize. Septa Robes (which she discards anyway in cities in order not to be recognized as a Septa) can only hide so much. The Griffs dye their hair blue just so nobody would connect them to Jon Connington and a Targaryen, Ashara would have no such luxury since dark hair is difficult to dye and sunglasses haven't been invented yet to hide her legendary, striking eyes.

So having Ashara around would be a liability IF her eyes are really so stirking that the slightest mention of them would be the qeuivalent of "giving the reader her ID card"

Since absolute loyalty is a necessity, all the crew members must have backstories even if they're not famous.

Dark hair is common as dirt, violet eyes aren't that rare in Essos, but Westerosi are so the likelihood of being recognized is slim especially as the years go by

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11 minutes ago, Lady bonehead said:

Since absolute loyalty is a necessity, all the crew members must have backstories even if they're not famous.

Dark hair is common as dirt, violet eyes aren't that rare in Essos, but Westerosi are so the likelihood of being recognized is slim especially as the years go by

You're right. Just to provide you with some back-up, Duck's story is told in chapter 8 and Yandry and Ysilla's story is told in chapter 14. Both of these are chapters are in ADWD. I think most people know Duck's story and Yandry and Ysilla were part of a movement where orphans of the Greenblood returned to Mother Rhoyne. It seems to be a semi religious movement.

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1 hour ago, Lady bonehead said:

Since absolute loyalty is a necessity, all the crew members must have backstories even if they're not famous.

Dark hair is common as dirt, violet eyes aren't that rare in Essos, but Westerosi are so the likelihood of being recognized is slim especially as the years go by

Then there should have been no problem to mention her eyes. Also the point wasn't whether her generalt colouration is common or not, but that, apparently, according to bent branch mentioning her "super special striking" eyes would have been the equivalent of giving the reader her ID card.

Also why is it okay for the others not to be famous, but Lemore has to be Ashara or someone else "dramatic"? Why can't she be, let's say the a former septa from the Stormlands? The least of Stormlandish septas and disgraced to boot after having been found out pregnant. Such a septa would not have many choices as far as careers go and would accept a job assignment like that. More interesting than her being yet another famous person in disguise.

49 minutes ago, bent branch said:

 Yandry and Ysilla were part of a movement where orphans of the Greenblood returned to Mother Rhoyne. It seems to be a semi religious movement.

Also known as a cover story imho (in their case at least).

Also idk if you can really call it a "movement". All I got from what we were told is that, on occasion Green Blood Orphans move to the Rhoyne. Often enough to not make it suspicious to have some Rhoynish people about, but not really what I would call a "movement" Semi Religious or otherwise.

If I would speculate in their case is that their move to the Rhoyne was taken care of in exchange for hiding Faegon.

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1 hour ago, Lady bonehead said:

Since absolute loyalty is a necessity, all the crew members must have backstories even if they're not famous.

Dark hair is common as dirt, violet eyes aren't that rare in Essos, but Westerosi are so the likelihood of being recognized is slim especially as the years go by

Dark hair is common, sure. And violet eyes are common in Essos. But the combination of the two is not common anywhere. Most of the violet-eyed people in Essos have the silver-gold hair from Valyria as well. With dark hair and violet eyes, Lemore would stick out on both continents.

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On 2017-03-14 at 3:08 AM, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Dark hair is common, sure. And violet eyes are common in Essos. But the combination of the two is not common anywhere. Most of the violet-eyed people in Essos have the silver-gold hair from Valyria as well. With dark hair and violet eyes, Lemore would stick out on both continents.

Valyrian features aren't common outside of the old colonies, though. And the only two we've been explicitly told of are Lys and the walled-in part of Volantis. ("the old Valyrian blood still runs high" or something like that)

 

People make a fuss over Danys appearance. Why would they if its so totally ordinary? 

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3 hours ago, Sigella said:

People make a fuss over Danys appearance. Why would they if its so totally ordinary? 

 Cos they want them dragons.

I don't know if I mentioned here or elsewhere, but beauty has political currency in this world, and so it's in everybody's interest to pretend that the highest-born of ladies is also the most beautiful; just like people pretend that highborn men are great warriors, or wise, or whatever. Consider what the average person hears about King Robert, or King Joffrey, and compare it to what they were actually like. Were they really strong, or brave, or noble, etc?

That's not to say that any particular highborn lady isn't beautiful, just that it's the family connections, i.e. the power, that causes people to make a fuss. The woman's looks are actually largely irrelevant.

And dragons represent a hell of a lot of power.

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8 hours ago, Sigella said:

Valyrian features aren't common outside of the old colonies, though. And the only two we've been explicitly told of are Lys and the walled-in part of Volantis. ("the old Valyrian blood still runs high" or something like that)

 

People make a fuss over Danys appearance. Why would they if its so totally ordinary? 

And Tyrosh, but it's not obvious because they dye their hair. The people of Norvos are pretty fair as well.

Dany is not just a girl with silver-gold hair and purple eyes. She is exceptionally and uncommonly beautiful. The most beautiful woman in the world, and she's not even fully grown yet.

4 hours ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

 Cos they want them dragons.

I don't know if I mentioned here or elsewhere, but beauty has political currency in this world, and so it's in everybody's interest to pretend that the highest-born of ladies is also the most beautiful; just like people pretend that highborn men are great warriors, or wise, or whatever. Consider what the average person hears about King Robert, or King Joffrey, and compare it to what they were actually like. Were they really strong, or brave, or noble, etc?

That's not to say that any particular highborn lady isn't beautiful, just that it's the family connections, i.e. the power, that causes people to make a fuss. The woman's looks are actually largely irrelevant.

And dragons represent a hell of a lot of power.

Also this. :agree: Well said IMP.

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4 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

And Tyrosh, but it's not obvious because they dye their hair. The people of Norvos are pretty fair as well.

Dany is not just a girl with silver-gold hair and purple eyes. She is exceptionally and uncommonly beautiful. The most beautiful woman in the world, and she's not even fully grown yet.

Also this. :agree: Well said IMP.

It's what I do. I eat vast quantities of McDonald's and I say things

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