Unknown / Double Identities

[Sigella]

8 hours ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

 Cos they want them dragons.

I don't know if I mentioned here or elsewhere, but beauty has political currency in this world, and so it's in everybody's interest to pretend that the highest-born of ladies is also the most beautiful; just like people pretend that highborn men are great warriors, or wise, or whatever. Consider what the average person hears about King Robert, or King Joffrey, and compare it to what they were actually like. Were they really strong, or brave, or noble, etc?

That's not to say that any particular highborn lady isn't beautiful, just that it's the family connections, i.e. the power, that causes people to make a fuss. The woman's looks are actually largely irrelevant.

And dragons represent a hell of a lot of power.

Yeah, I'm not talking of flattery. More like Illyrio going on about her being "the blood of old Valyria, no doubt, no doubt!" and that kind of positive racism-things stuff people say to her.

 

4 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

And Tyrosh, but it's not obvious because they dye their hair. The people of Norvos are pretty fair as well.

Dany is not just a girl with silver-gold hair and purple eyes. She is exceptionally and uncommonly beautiful. The most beautiful woman in the world, and she's not even fully grown yet.

Also this.  Well said IMP.

Its still quite misleading to call it common, though?

[Lady Blizzardborn]

16 hours ago, Sigella said:

Yeah, I'm not talking of flattery. More like Illyrio going on about her being "the blood of old Valyria, no doubt, no doubt!" and that kind of positive racism-things stuff people say to her.

 

Its still quite misleading to call it common, though?

Not to my mind, no. There were Valyrian settlements all over Essos, and plenty of the non-dragonlords survived the Doom. The looks have clearly not died out. Two different people were sent to search Essos for a bride for Rhaegar Targaryen, which would have been an easy task if there were only a meager handful of people with Valyrian looks. The fact that both came up empty-handed in the search for a Valyrian girl of suitable nobility only says that legitimate and powerful lines are rare, not that Valyrian traits are.

[Sigella]

2 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Not to my mind, no. There were Valyrian settlements all over Essos, and plenty of the non-dragonlords survived the Doom. The looks have clearly not died out. Two different people were sent to search Essos for a bride for Rhaegar Targaryen, which would have been an easy task if there were only a meager handful of people with Valyrian looks. The fact that both came up empty-handed in the search for a Valyrian girl of suitable nobility only says that legitimate and powerful lines are rare, not that Valyrian traits are.

I'm gonna have to reverse-logic-you on this one: if valyrian looks/ancestry were super common, wouldn't finding a bride be easier?

 

We've only been told of TWO cities where the old blood runs high... Assuming a majority Essosi having purple eyes and silver hair borderlines on fanfic imo.

[bent branch]

7 hours ago, Sigella said:

I'm gonna have to reverse-logic-you on this one: if valyrian looks/ancestry were super common, wouldn't finding a bride be easier?

 

We've only been told of TWO cities where the old blood runs high... Assuming a majority Essosi having purple eyes and silver hair borderlines on fanfic imo.

You're making the assumption that every Valyrian was royalty. If all Aerys was looking for was a Valyrian he could have bought a whore from Lysfor Rhaegar. What Aerys was looking for was a distant relative or at least a daughter of an old noble Valyrian family.

[Sigella]

8 hours ago, bent branch said:

You're making the assumption that every Valyrian was royalty. If all Aerys was looking for was a Valyrian he could have bought a whore from Lysfor Rhaegar. What Aerys was looking for was a distant relative or at least a daughter of an old noble Valyrian family.

The nobility of Valyria was dragonlords. Only Targs are left.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

20 hours ago, Sigella said:

I'm gonna have to reverse-logic-you on this one: if valyrian looks/ancestry were super common, wouldn't finding a bride be easier?

 

We've only been told of TWO cities where the old blood runs high... Assuming a majority Essosi having purple eyes and silver hair borderlines on fanfic imo.

No, because the looks are not dependent on noble or not, legitimate or note, etc. There are plenty of children from whores or lowborns of Valyrian ancestry, but those children would not be considered acceptable consorts for a Targaryen prince.

That would be because unlike the rest of the free cities--all of which excepting Braavos were Valyrian colonies--those two have a majority Valyrian population. The looks will remain in the other cities as well, they'll just outnumbered by people with non-Valyrian looks.

I didn't say anything about a majority of the Essosi having those looks. Seems we are running into either a definition issue or an interpretation one. If 35% of the Essosi population has Valyrian looks, then said looks would be pretty common, especially compared to Westeros where it would be more like 1% or fewer of the population. They would not be overwhemingly prevalent, but would still be usual enough to be considered unremarkable in the various cities of Essos. Otherwise Dany and Viserys hiding anywhere other than Tyrosh and Lys would have been nearly impossible.

 

[Sigella]

18 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

No, because the looks are not dependent on noble or not, legitimate or note, etc. There are plenty of children from whores or lowborns of Valyrian ancestry, but those children would not be considered acceptable consorts for a Targaryen prince.

That would be because unlike the rest of the free cities--all of which excepting Braavos were Valyrian colonies--those two have a majority Valyrian population. The looks will remain in the other cities as well, they'll just outnumbered by people with non-Valyrian looks.

I didn't say anything about a majority of the Essosi having those looks. Seems we are running into either a definition issue or an interpretation one. If 35% of the Essosi population has Valyrian looks, then said looks would be pretty common, especially compared to Westeros where it would be more like 1% or fewer of the population. They would not be overwhemingly prevalent, but would still be usual enough to be considered unremarkable in the various cities of Essos. Otherwise Dany and Viserys hiding anywhere other than Tyrosh and Lys would have been nearly impossible.

 

We totally are.  

The statistic in my mind would be like 1 valyrian for 1 000 000 westerosi, 1 valyrian for 250 000 essosi, 1 valyrian for 10 volantene, 1 valyrian for 2 Lyseni.

 

edit: I'm counting all residents though, slaves and all, and I'm taking into account that Tyrion says there are like 20 slaves for every freeman in Volantis.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

32 minutes ago, Sigella said:

We totally are.  

The statistic in my mind would be like 1 valyrian for 1 000 000 westerosi, 1 valyrian for 250 000 essosi, 1 valyrian for 10 volantene, 1 valyrian for 2 Lyseni.

 

Exactly. Add in Tyrosh, and the numbers from those three cities (T, L, and V) balance out the rest of Essos to make Valyrian looks not uncommon for the continent. Though I'd wager the Valyrian looks might be as much as 1:1 in Lys. We can give 1:2 to Tyrosh.

[Sigella]

19 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Exactly. Add in Tyrosh, and the numbers from those three cities (T, L, and V) balance out the rest of Essos to make Valyrian looks not uncommon for the continent. Though I'd wager the Valyrian looks might be as much as 1:1 in Lys. We can give 1:2 to Tyrosh.

Yeah but if you take slaves into account it turns out differently. The lysine might not be as outnumbered by the slaves as the volantene, but I'd still say at least half.

And since most valyrians live in the bigger cities they aren't as likely to be enslaved either.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

15 hours ago, Sigella said:

Yeah but if you take slaves into account it turns out differently. The lysine might not be as outnumbered by the slaves as the volantene, but I'd still say at least half.

And since most valyrians live in the bigger cities they aren't as likely to be enslaved either.

I wasn't excluding the slaves.

[bent branch]

17 hours ago, Sigella said:

Yeah but if you take slaves into account it turns out differently. The lysine might not be as outnumbered by the slaves as the volantene, but I'd still say at least half.

And since most valyrians live in the bigger cities they aren't as likely to be enslaved either.

Where are you getting the idea that people of Valyrian heritage aren't slaves? We are told that Valyrian slaves are specifically bred to be sex slaves since they bring such high prices. You seem to be making an assumption along the lines of:  The United Kingdom has a queen, therefore, all people in the United Kingdom are royalty. It just doesn't work that way. And yes, some of the old Valyrian families of the Free Cities (particularly Volantis) were minor nobles in Valyrian times. Also, there are indications in the story that Targaryens married into Free City families multiple times in the past.

[Sigella]

10 hours ago, bent branch said:

Where are you getting the idea that people of Valyrian heritage aren't slaves? We are told that Valyrian slaves are specifically bred to be sex slaves since they bring such high prices. You seem to be making an assumption along the lines of:  The United Kingdom has a queen, therefore, all people in the United Kingdom are royalty. It just doesn't work that way. And yes, some of the old Valyrian families of the Free Cities (particularly Volantis) were minor nobles in Valyrian times. Also, there are indications in the story that Targaryens married into Free City families multiple times in the past.

Where are we told of valyrian-slave-breeding? I've missed it.

 

I'm not saying there aren't any valyrian slaves, I'm saying that since they mostly live in the biggest cities they aren't as likely to be enslaved. When was the last time the dothraki sacked Volantis say?

[Sigella]

12 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

I wasn't excluding the slaves.

Oh. Guess this is another interpretation thing we have going against us

[hitman47]

LEMORE = TYSHA

TYWIN = AERYS

TYRION = JAIME TYRION DREAMED THAT HE IS JAIME

DARRIO = NED STARK

RED GOD = DEVIL LUCIFER

CERSEI = SHAE

TYRION + CERSEI = SANSA

GREGOR CLEGANE + ELIA MARTELL = OBERYN

AGEON 1 = AGEON VI

SANSA STARK + ARYA = NIGHT KING

JAIME + TYRION =   JOFFREY

BIRDS = FLYING MONKEYS

GREAT SEPT = SLEEPING AGENTS

NIGHT KING = AERYS II AND TOMMEN

TYRION + JOANNA = TYRION

JOANNA = MOTHER OF DRAGONS

 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

5 hours ago, hitman47 said:

LEMORE = TYSHA

TYWIN = AERYS

TYRION = JAIME TYRION DREAMED THAT HE IS JAIME

DARRIO = NED STARK

RED GOD = DEVIL LUCIFER

CERSEI = SHAE

TYRION + CERSEI = SANSA

GREGOR CLEGANE + ELIA MARTELL = OBERYN

AGEON 1 = AGEON VI

SANSA STARK + ARYA = NIGHT KING

JAIME + TYRION =   JOFFREY

BIRDS = FLYING MONKEYS

GREAT SEPT = SLEEPING AGENTS

NIGHT KING = AERYS II AND TOMMEN

TYRION + JOANNA = TYRION

JOANNA = MOTHER OF DRAGONS

 

You had me worried with that first one. Then I read the others. 

[bent branch]

6 hours ago, Sigella said:

Where are we told of valyrian-slave-breeding? I've missed it.

 

I'm not saying there aren't any valyrian slaves, I'm saying that since they mostly live in the biggest cities they aren't as likely to be enslaved. When was the last time the dothraki sacked Volantis say?

Quote

The Lyseni are also great breeders of slaves, mating beauty with beauty in hopes of producing ever more refined and lovely courtesans and bedslaves. The blood of Valyria still runs strong in Lys, where even the small-folk oft boast pale skin, silver-gold hair, and the purple, lilac and pale blue eyes of the dragonlords of old. The Lysene nobility values purity of blood above all and have produced many famous (and infamous) beauties. Even the Targaryen kings and princes of old sometimes turned to Lys in search of wives and paramours, for their blood as for their beauty. Aptly, many Lyseni worship a love goddess whose naked, wanton figure graces their coinage. AWOIAF - Beyond the Sunset Kingdom

The Dothraki are not the only source of slaves. As this quote shows, they are bred. We also know that excess children are given into slavery by their parents (Areo Hotah and Thoros). Also, children born to slaves are slaves. Also, pirates take prisoners that they then ransom or sell into slavery, this happened in ADWD. The Dothraki are only one of the many ways someone can end up a slave in Essos.

ETA: Hell, all it took for Tyrion to become a slave was for Jorah to put chains on him.

[Sigella]

12 hours ago, bent branch said:

The Dothraki are not the only source of slaves. As this quote shows, they are bred. We also know that excess children are given into slavery by their parents (Areo Hotah and Thoros). Also, children born to slaves are slaves. Also, pirates take prisoners that they then ransom or sell into slavery, this happened in ADWD. The Dothraki are only one of the many ways someone can end up a slave in Essos.

ETA: Hell, all it took for Tyrion to become a slave was for Jorah to put chains on him.

In my mind breeding beauty with beauty does not mean valyrian slave breeding, just some valyrian slave breeding.

12 hours ago, bent branch said:

even the small-folk oft boast pale skin, silver-gold hair, and the purple, lilac and pale blue eyes

I think we read the word "oft" and interpret it differently. It could mean a majority, or a third, or a tenth of the population. Any number would make it way more common in Lys than in Westeros.

[bent branch]

50 minutes ago, Sigella said:

In my mind breeding beauty with beauty does not mean valyrian slave breeding, just some valyrian slave breeding.

I think we read the word "oft" and interpret it differently. It could mean a majority, or a third, or a tenth of the population. Any number would make it way more common in Lys than in Westeros.

"Your Grace is kind," said Waters with a smile. A wicked smile, the queen thought. Aurane did not resemble Prince Rhaegar as much as she had thought. He has the hair, but so do half the whores in Lys, if the tales are true. Rhaegar was a man. This is a sly boy, no more. Useful in his way, though. AFFC - Cersei VIII (Thank you A Search of Ice and Fire)

Cersei thinks this because Lys is famous for its Valyrian bed slaves. This just one of several quotes showing that Valyrian bed slaves are what Lys is famous for. The quote I provided was to show that Lys purposely bred them that way.

Your idea that the Dothraki are the major source of slaves, rather than just one source of slaves has been disproven.

Your claim that of people of Valyrian heritage aren't slaves has been disproven.

Your claim that Targaryens would not have found descendents of old Valyrian noble families acceptable as wives has been disproven.

You can interpret that any way you want in your mind.

[Sigella]

On 2017-03-23 at 0:22 PM, bent branch said:

"Your Grace is kind," said Waters with a smile. A wicked smile, the queen thought. Aurane did not resemble Prince Rhaegar as much as she had thought. He has the hair, but so do half the whores in Lys, if the tales are true. Rhaegar was a man. This is a sly boy, no more. Useful in his way, though. AFFC - Cersei VIII (Thank you A Search of Ice and Fire)

Cersei thinks this because Lys is famous for its Valyrian bed slaves. This just one of several quotes showing that Valyrian bed slaves are what Lys is famous for. The quote I provided was to show that Lys purposely bred them that way.

1 Your idea that the Dothraki are the major source of slaves, rather than just one source of slaves has been disproven.

2 Your claim that of people of Valyrian heritage aren't slaves has been disproven.

3 Your claim that Targaryens would not have found descendents of old Valyrian noble families acceptable as wives has been disproven.

4 You can interpret that any way you want in your mind.

"Half"! You do realise this quote speaks on my behalf?

1, No it hasnt, you pointing out pirates and Jorah did not convince me.

2 Never said they wasn't, said "not as likely". See the difference?

3 Never claimed that, I pointed out that if there had been many the task would be easier, not harder. 

4  No need to reply, I feel we aren't getting anything good out of this.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

On 22/3/2017 at 4:38 PM, hitman47 said:

LEMORE = TYSHA

Sorry I only read the first one. I shouldn't had done it.