Praetor Xyn

Unknown / Double Identities

119 posts in this topic

4 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:
  1. Howland Reed = Ser Shadrech
  2. Mance Rayder Junior = Jon Snow
  3. Brandon Stark + Catelyn Tully = Secret Lovechild = Robb Stark
  4. Petyr Baelish Junior = Robert Arryn

1. Okay

2. Not possible

3. Even more not possible

4. Right there with you. 

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I'm in favor of the idea that, unless there are significant hints in the text, all characters are exactly who they are.

The only character that fills this criteria of the list above is Jaqen/Pate

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35 minutes ago, The Hammer of Justice said:

I'm in favor of the idea that, unless there are significant hints in the text, all characters are exactly who they are.

The only character that fills this criteria of the list above is Jaqen/Pate

She turned back to Prince Aegon. "You are not the only one who must needs hide." - Septa Lemore, ADWD - Chapter 22.

Is Lemore herself saying that she is not who she appears to be not enough proof for you?

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12 minutes ago, bent branch said:

She turned back to Prince Aegon. "You are not the only one who must needs hide." - Septa Lemore, ADWD - Chapter 22.

Is Lemore herself saying that she is not who she appears to be not enough proof for you?

In addition to this, JonCon trusting a bunch of random nobodies with the knowledge of Aegon identity just seems dumb.

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2 hours ago, bent branch said:

We don't know. GRRM revealed only as much about Lemore's appearance as he wants the reader to know at this point. If GRRM didn't want Tyrion to notice Lemore's eyes he would have exposed Lemore's breasts for Tyrion to stare at. Oh, wait, he did.

When the reveal on Lemore's identity is made, GRRM wants the reader to go "Wow! What?" not "Who?". Ashara is the only missing female in the book that could elicit that response in the average reader.

You think Tyrion missed the hauntingly purple eyes because of t&a?

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33 minutes ago, Sigella said:

You think Tyrion missed the hauntingly purple eyes because of t&a?

No. Tyrion didn't mention the purple eyes because GRRM didn't want Tyrion to mention the purple eyes. You've made up this arbitrary rule that GRRM has to reveal everything important in the story at the point you want him to. That isn't true. Authors are allowed to reveal only as much as they want to at a certain time. How they tell their story is their prerogative. If GRRM wanted us to know the color of Lemore's eyes he would have revealed that. Your insistence that GRRM not revealing the color of the eyes means they are not purple is completely arbitrary on your part. The only FACT here is that we don't know the color of the eyes because GRRM has not revealed the color of the eyes.

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4 hours ago, bent branch said:

She turned back to Prince Aegon. "You are not the only one who must needs hide." - Septa Lemore, ADWD - Chapter 22.

Is Lemore herself saying that she is not who she appears to be not enough proof for you?

I did not remember that, I'm gonna digest the idea for a few days to make a conclusion

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Lady B

Why rule out Mance being Jon's father or Robb being Brandon's son.

Mance is certainly the sort of guy likely to attract Lyanna and there is that Bael the Bard story

I am firmly of the view that the ONLY way to make the timelines work so that Robb is a month or two older than Jon is if he was conceived just before Brandon went off and got killed. 

If Ned is Jon's father then he married/slept with his mother (probably Ashara) during his flight from the Vale. Thus Jon is 2-6 weeks younger than Robb.

Ned arrives at Riverun not necessarily intending to marry Catelyn but is confronted by Hoster Tully. It is possible that Catelyn is not even aware she is pregnant, but Hoster is - after all he had just been made aware of Lysa's condition so he may well have (almost certainly would have) had the family nurse check out Catelyn without telling her why.

Confronted with the situation, Ned as ever dutiful and self sacrificing marries Catelyn, not knowing that Ashara is also pregnant. In any case having already had one child (this was known) she did not have the same honour to protect as Tully's daughters.

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Bent branch

How could Tyrion of all people not recognise Ashara Dayne? Purple eyes are not common!!!! he read widely and would know that this is a characteristic of Targs and Daynes.

 

Also how did an extremely beautiful (Ser Barristan and Ned were entranced) woman of 33 somehow become a handsome but not stunning woman of 43. Ashara Dayne is roughly the same age as Cersai, who is still beautiful. So too would be Ashara.

 

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2 hours ago, Luddagain said:

Bent branch

How could Tyrion of all people not recognise Ashara Dayne? Purple eyes are not common!!!! he read widely and would know that this is a characteristic of Targs and Daynes.

 

Also how did an extremely beautiful (Ser Barristan and Ned were entranced) woman of 33 somehow become a handsome but not stunning woman of 43. Ashara Dayne is roughly the same age as Cersai, who is still beautiful. So too would be Ashara.

 

I don't know, is it because:

1.  Tyrion was 10 years old when Ashara supposedly died and he had never left Casterly Rock. Why would Tyrion think about some woman who died when he was a child and who he had never met?

2.  Even the wiki places a 9 year span for Ashara's year of birth. This nine year span goes from potentially age 31 to 40. You are simply choosing to think it is on the younger end. Barristan Selmy is 63 or 64 years old. This would make him 23 or 24 years older than Ashara at the high end or 31 or 32 years older if Ashara was on the young end.  This means that the 45 or 46 year old Selmy was in love with a woman of 23 or a girl of 14. Barry doesn't strike me as a guy into teenagers, but maybe you see him differently.

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7 hours ago, Sigella said:

You think Tyrion missed the hauntingly purple eyes because of t&a?

Sure we still don't know Shae's eye color. All we ever get is dark...

Also if Tyrion notes the purple eyes it would give away the identity.

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5 hours ago, The Hammer of Justice said:

I did not remember that, I'm gonna digest the idea for a few days to make a conclusion

That's entirely reasonable.

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13 hours ago, Sigella said:

You think Tyrion missed the hauntingly purple eyes because of t&a?

"Why would he be entranced a pair of tits when there's a perfectly beautiful pair of eyes to look at?"

I am going to guess that you are not a man.

8 hours ago, Luddagain said:

Also how did an extremely beautiful (Ser Barristan and Ned were entranced) woman of 33 somehow become a handsome but not stunning woman of 43.

Probably not you either.

All that said, I think Tyrion probably would have noticed purple eyes once he realised who Aegon was. His suspicions would have been aroused, rather than...

Also:

8 hours ago, Luddagain said:

Ashara Dayne is roughly the same age as Cersai, who is still beautiful.

No she isn't, she's fat and haggard, a mean old drunk. She comes across as beautiful thanks to her team of beauticians and so on. Cersei's beauty is a political fact: the Queen must be beautiful, else why would the king have married her? She's beautiful in the same way that Robert was strong, i.e., maybe once upon a time, but not no more.

Unless you really think that any of these royal ladies are "the most beautiful woman in the world"?

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On 10/3/2017 at 1:08 AM, Lady Blizzardborn said:

This has been disproven. Arianne went with Tyene once to visit her mother in the Reach. They couldn't have done that if she'd been off in Essos educating Aegon on the Faith of the Seven.

Do we know how long Septa Lemore's been with Aegon?

 

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One that a lot of people tend to skim over is that "Griff" is actually Jon Connington, a former Hand under Aerys and once Lord of Griffin's Roost. It's a bit weird that now he lives on a poleboat with his son, but sometimes GRRM just likes to show us these bits of worldbuilding

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I've seen some great ones of these.

  • The Hooded Man - Alliser Thorne
  • Coldhands - a Raven's Tooth
  • The Mad Mouse - Howland Reed
  • Godric Borrell - secret Faceless Man
  • Selhorys customs man whose name I can't remember - secret Faceless Man

I like the idea that Robb Stark is Brandon's son.

@M_Tootles in particular has some great ideas in this direction:

  • Marwyn - Marwyn Martell
  • Elder Brother - Lewyn Martell
  • The harpist at the Quiet Isle - Rhaegar Targaryen
  • Qhorin Halfnad (lol) - Gerold Hightower
  • One of the students at Oldtown - Dontos Hollard's son
  • The High Septon - the reanimated corpse of Balon Greyjoy
  • Ser Morgarth - Lewyn Martell


To whoever said the Shrouded Lord was just background, or a myth:

1. He's not a myth, he's an office

2. GRRM wrote a version of Tyrion's drowning chapter where he actually met the Shrouded Lord, so he must be slightly important.

 

But my favourite theory is also the most controversial. Daario Naharis, the flamboyant Essosi sellsword, is in reality none other than...

...the flamboyant Essosi sellsword Daario Naharis!

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10 hours ago, Luddagain said:

Lady B

Why rule out Mance being Jon's father or Robb being Brandon's son.

Mance is certainly the sort of guy likely to attract Lyanna and there is that Bael the Bard story

I am firmly of the view that the ONLY way to make the timelines work so that Robb is a month or two older than Jon is if he was conceived just before Brandon went off and got killed. 

If Ned is Jon's father then he married/slept with his mother (probably Ashara) during his flight from the Vale. Thus Jon is 2-6 weeks younger than Robb.

Ned arrives at Riverun not necessarily intending to marry Catelyn but is confronted by Hoster Tully. It is possible that Catelyn is not even aware she is pregnant, but Hoster is - after all he had just been made aware of Lysa's condition so he may well have (almost certainly would have) had the family nurse check out Catelyn without telling her why.

Confronted with the situation, Ned as ever dutiful and self sacrificing marries Catelyn, not knowing that Ashara is also pregnant. In any case having already had one child (this was known) she did not have the same honour to protect as Tully's daughters.

I'm of the opinion that Jon is older than Ned claimed him to be.  That's why poor Maester Luwin had to invent a reason that bastards grow up much faster than other boys. 

Mance + Lyanna = Jon would repeat the tale of Bael the Bard all over again.  A wildling deflowers the daughter of House Stark.  Lyanna didn't cry because of Rhaegar.  She cried because his song reminded her of a former shack buddy, Mance.  We've known Mance can get away from th wall anytime he wished and actually have done so many times for a quick screw at Mole's Town.  Imagine running into Lyanna during one of his unofficial vacations from duties.  He presents himself as Bael the travelling musician instead of a black brother.  They shag and then he leaves.

Brandon + Lyanna = Jon is even better.

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Posted (edited)

from your choices:

Unknown Identities:

The Hooded Man - No idea
The Corsair King - No idea
The Shrouded Lord - No idea
Quaithe - Shiera Seastar
Coldhands - The Last Hero maybe?


Double Identities:
Septon Lemore - Mellario of Norvos
Daario Naharis - Daario Naharis
Lem Lemoncloak - Ser Richard Lonmouth
Haldon Halfmaester - Haldon (Walys was dead by 283)
The Alchemist / "Pate" - Jaqen H'Ghar

 

  • Coldhands - a Raven's Tooth

Now that is interesting and makes sense.

Edited by Jon's Queen Consort

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Unknown Identities:

  • The Hooded Man - Harwin/Theon Greyjoy
  • The Corsair King - Someone unknown 
  • The Shrouded Lord - same
  • Quaithe - some Asshai'i 
  • Coldhands - a dead man of the Night's Watch
  • Harpy - Green Grace
  • Melisandre - Shiera's daughter
  • Varys - Varys Brightflame
  • Ilyrio Mopatis - Illyrio Blackfyre from the female line

Double Identities:

  • Septon Lemore - some Westeroshi noble (not Ashara, Lyanna, Elia, Mellario)
  • Daario Naharis - Daario Naharis
  • Lem Lemoncloak - Lem Lemoncloak
  • Haldon Halfmaester - Haldon Halfmaester
  • The Alchemist / "Pate" - Jaqen H'Ghar

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14 hours ago, Luddagain said:

Lady B

Why rule out Mance being Jon's father or Robb being Brandon's son.

Mance is certainly the sort of guy likely to attract Lyanna and there is that Bael the Bard story

I am firmly of the view that the ONLY way to make the timelines work so that Robb is a month or two older than Jon is if he was conceived just before Brandon went off and got killed. 

If Ned is Jon's father then he married/slept with his mother (probably Ashara) during his flight from the Vale. Thus Jon is 2-6 weeks younger than Robb.

Ned arrives at Riverun not necessarily intending to marry Catelyn but is confronted by Hoster Tully. It is possible that Catelyn is not even aware she is pregnant, but Hoster is - after all he had just been made aware of Lysa's condition so he may well have (almost certainly would have) had the family nurse check out Catelyn without telling her why.

Confronted with the situation, Ned as ever dutiful and self sacrificing marries Catelyn, not knowing that Ashara is also pregnant. In any case having already had one child (this was known) she did not have the same honour to protect as Tully's daughters.

First of all because we've got decent confirmation that Lyanna is Jon's mother, that she was in Dorne during the war, and there is no way Mance would have been able to go from the Wall down to Dorne and back, through a war zone, safely.

As to the second part, Catelyn was a virgin on her wedding night with Ned. 

Actually Mance isn't the type to attract Lyanna. Lyanna seems to be a very impulsive and outgoing kind of girl so she would naturally be attracted to the opposite kind of man. Rhaegar was of a notably melancholy temperament. Mance is more choleric. If I've read them correctly Mance and Lyanna would be more likely to fight than to fall in love. 

The Bael the Bard story doesn't necessarily have to mean Mance has any involvement. If we want to go that literal then Mance has to leave a blue rose in Lyanna's bedchamber and hide with her in the crypts for a year before she returns with a baby, and he goes over the Wall, which would be kind of silly since he was still in the Night's Watch at the time. Bael the Bard is an allusion, it's not a one-to-one parallel.

Considering that Brandon was killed anywhere between 1 and 3 months before the battles began and Robb was conceived after the battles began, and Jon must be conceived after Robb...and that Catelyn's first time was with Ned...that doesn't work. Robb does not have to be more than a couple of weeks older than Jon (who is conceived about three months into the war), so you'd have to change Robb's birth date, which means changing Jon's birth date as well. And Jon being born at a different time means that Dany had to be born at a different time. This theory moves everything up by a month or more. It would blow up the whole story and mean that the Mother of Dragons is not Aerys and Rhaella's child, which in turn means that unless Aegon really is Rhaegar's son we may have no Dragon that was Promised. TDtwP comes of Aerys and Rhaella's line. Rhaegar is dead. Rhaenys is dead. Viserys is dead and had no children. If Jon is Ned's son then he doesn't qualify, and the same applies if he's Mance's son. If Dany isn't Aerys and Rhaella's daughter, or Rhaegar's (and the ideas presented haven't included that), then she can't be it either. We've only got Aegon left with this line of thinking, so he better be the real deal.

It's one thing to say that Ned slept with someone. It's quite another to say he married someone. There is no way that the Ned we know and most of us love would agree to a phony second marriage. He would have simply said he was sorry but he already had a wife. He would happily provide for Brandon's bastard but he would not have dishonored his own wife and potential child (Ned knows how this stuff works, so if he slept with a wife he'd know there was a chance of a baby) that way, nor would he give away his own future trueborn children's rights to Brandon's bastard. 

The only advantage to the story of Jon being Ned and Ashara's child is the idea that he would be in line to be Sword of the Morning and wield Dawn, which is a faulty assumption because even if legitimized Jon would not be a Dayne, he'd be a Stark. And this doesn't explain Jon's dream where he feels that the old dead Starks are trying to get across that he doesn't belong there because he's not a Stark.

The Hoster Tully who murdered Lysa's child would have no problem murdering Catelyn's as well so that he could pretend she was a virgin. Lysa's prior pregnancy was a selling point with Jon Arryn who had so much trouble getting an heir, but it would not have been an advantage for Catelyn. Maybe he would have tried to make Ned take responsibility for Brandon's behavior, but as I said above Ned would not have done that at the cost of his own wife and future children. Unlike the Targaryens, the Starks don't seem to have a general tendency to think rules don't apply to them. Then of course there's the fact that Robb would have been born awfully early compared to when Catelyn married Ned. Premies did not have a great survival rate prior to the modern era.

You seem to be assuming that Ashara got pregnant at Harrenhal, which is by no means confirmed. We're not even sure she had a child at all. We only have rumors and hearsay about some kind of dishonor at Harrenhal, a pregnancy with no dates attached, a stillborn baby girl, and a suicide with no note and no witnesses. If Ashara was Ned's wife, she absolutely would have honor to protect, and Ned being Ned probably would NOT have married a woman who had borne a bastard child to someone else. If Ned himself had slept with Ashara at Harrenhal he would have married her immediately--long before the world blew up over Lyanna's disappearance and Brandon's being a dumbass.

5 hours ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

<snip

Do we know how long Septa Lemore's been with Aegon?

 

No, but it's presumably been years. She fits in well with the group, and the Faith presumably has plenty to cover. Half the readers haven't even noticed it's actually a monotheistic religion so I figure the people in-world need plenty of education to grasp the finer points.

Arianne and Tyene had three of Tyene's sisters along when they went to visit her mother. The most likely case is that the other three were Obara, Nym, and Sarella before she left for the citadel. So this was likely within the most recent handful of years.

Besides which it's odd to think of the black-haired dark eyed Oberyn and a woman with brown hair having a child who is blonde and blue-eyed--though not impossible it seems unlikely. And it's even more odd that Tyene wouldn't know about Aegon if mom is working to make him into the Stepford King.

3 hours ago, Steelshanks Walton said:

I'm of the opinion that Jon is older than Ned claimed him to be.  That's why poor Maester Luwin had to invent a reason that bastards grow up much faster than other boys. 

Mance + Lyanna = Jon would repeat the tale of Bael the Bard all over again.  A wildling deflowers the daughter of House Stark.  Lyanna didn't cry because of Rhaegar.  She cried because his song reminded her of a former shack buddy, Mance.  We've known Mance can get away from th wall anytime he wished and actually have done so many times for a quick screw at Mole's Town.  Imagine running into Lyanna during one of his unofficial vacations from duties.  He presents himself as Bael the travelling musician instead of a black brother.  They shag and then he leaves.

Brandon + Lyanna = Jon is even better.

Maester Luwin is talking about maturity though, not physical growth.

Except that Bael ran off with his Stark girl and hid for a year. Mance didn't. Lyanna disappeared for a year, but no rose was left in her place, and she didn't return alive. If Lyanna got pregnant before she disappeared then Jon would be (mentally calculating: Jon traditionally conceived three months into a war, subtract those, and Brandon dying at least two weeks before, subtract that, the time between Lyanna's abduction, Brandon learning of it, and getting his stupid butt to KL, one week minimum, Rickard being summoned, Rickard getting to KL, another week at minimum but probably more...). No. Doesn't work. Jon would be four months or more older than Robb. Ned's cover story would never fly.

No, we don't know that. We know he was taken along to Wintefell once, and there's a chance he was one of the Black Brothers at Harrenhal, but other than that we've only heard about him being injured on a ranging...which was official NW business.

Zero evidence, but I suppose some find it an entertaining theory. 

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Posted (edited)

5 hours ago, Steelshanks Walton said:

Mance + Lyanna = Jon would repeat the tale of Bael the Bard all over again.  A wildling deflowers the daughter of House Stark.  Lyanna didn't cry because of Rhaegar.  She cried because his song reminded her of a former shack buddy, Mance.  We've known Mance can get away from th wall anytime he wished and actually have done so many times for a quick screw at Mole's Town.  Imagine running into Lyanna during one of his unofficial vacations from duties.  He presents himself as Bael the travelling musician instead of a black brother.  They shag and then he leaves.

Brandon + Lyanna = Jon is even better.

By even better you mean better as a theory that is possible to happen or better as a fan fiction which is inspired by a soap opera? Because I could understand if you chose the latter since you will have to support your theories from the books. 

Edited by Jon's Queen Consort

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