Curled Finger

Skin Changing and The Last Greenseer

91 posts in this topic

Magic, talent, skill--whatever it takes to unravel the mystery of the Others Bran Stark has got it.  Bran’s skin changing of Hodor is either an abomination or necessity or somewhere in between.  Thistle fought Varamyr with everything she had to get him out of her skin.  Gads, imagine something so awful you would tear your own eyes out to rid yourself of it?   Most of us are relieved when Bran overtakes Hodor the 1st time to quiet Hodor’s fear and command his responses.   I always enjoyed what I thought was a tip of Martin’s hat to Shelley’s Frankenstein as this skin changing takes place during a thunderstorm.   Bran had no intention of entering Hodor.   How could he even know he could do such a thing?   Was this instance the birth of a monster?  

"Be quiet!" Bran said in a shrill scared voice, reaching up uselessly for Hodor's leg as he crashed past, reaching, reaching.

Hodor staggered, and closed his mouth. He shook his head slowly from side to side, sank back to the floor, and sat crosslegged. When the thunder boomed, he scarcely seemed to hear it. The four of them sat in the dark tower, scarce daring to breathe.

"Bran, what did you do?" Meera whispered.  ASOS Bran 3

Say what you like about the morality of Bran’s actions.   We read plain as day in Varamyr’s prologue that seizing a human’s body is the greatest abomination of all.   That’s not the point of this discussion.  Bran’s initial visit inside Hodor was an accident of crisis.    There was no intention in the original skin changing, only the desire to quiet Hodor and save his company.   Bran comes and goes as he pleases in Hodor’s skin from that point on.   Bran likes being in Hodor and Hodor just curls up in a little ball. 

"Nothing." Bran shook his head. "I don't know." But he did. I reached for him, the way I reach for Summer. He had been Hodor for half a heartbeat. It scared him.  ASOS Bran 3

I can't let her fight the thing alone, he thought. Summer was far away, but . . .

. . . he slipped his skin, and reached for Hodor.

It was not like sliding into Summer. That was so easy now that Bran hardly thought about it. This was harder, like trying to pull a left boot on your right foot. It fit all wrong, and the boot was scared too, the boot didn't know what was happening, the boot was pushing the foot away. He tasted vomit in the back of Hodor's throat, and that was almost enough to make him flee. Instead he squirmed and shoved, sat up, gathered his legs under him—his huge strong legs—and rose. I'm standing. He took a step. I'm walking. It was such a strange feeling that he almost fell. He could see himself on the cold stone floor, a little broken thing, but he wasn't broken now. He grabbed Hodor's longsword.  ASOS Bran 4

And suddenly he was not Bran, the broken boy crawling through the snow, suddenly he was Hodor halfway down the hill, with the wight raking at his eyes. Roaring, he came lurching to his feet, throwing the thing violently aside.  ADWD Bran 1

The big stableboy no longer fought him as he had the first time, back in the lake tower during the storm. Like a dog who has had all the fight whipped out of him, Hodor would curl up and hide whenever Bran reached out for him. His hiding place was somewhere deep within him, a pit where not even Bran could touch him. No one wants to hurt you, Hodor, he said silently, to the child-man whose flesh he'd taken. I just want to be strong again for a while. I'll give it back, the way I always do.  ADWD Bran 3

Bran is a powerful magical being.  He slips into Hodor and can make himself known in the past, perhaps the present, in a weirwood and/or raven.   Bloodraven assures him he can’t be heard, but we know better.   Bran can warg a dire wolf, no small feat according to Varamyr, as well as skin change birds—these are only the 1st creatures we’ve witnessed.   We’ve seen him reach out to other characters in dreams; Jon and Arya come to mind most specifically.   This is not your average little boy by a long stretch.  Part of the wonder in Bran’s magic is the sheer accident of discovering ability.    What are Bran’s abilities thus far?

1.       Warg

2.       Green Sight

3.       Skin changing animal and human

4.       Telepath

5.       Retro cognition

6.       Remote Viewing

7.       Astral Projection

I don’t think Bran is even aware of some of his abilities, much less how to control them. 

In the cave the days are long and the nights seem to be even longer.   While Bran is fascinated and has lots to occupy himself with Meera and Jojen seem to go into decline.  Jojen pouts and sits at the mouth of the cave doing much of nothing and Meera tries to stay busy.    Meera & Jojen have helped Bran so much and Bran loves them both.  I’m not sure Bran would even be alive without them.  One night Meera is sad.  So sad Bran can feel it.  He wants nothing more than to drag himself over to her and hug her.  He’s thinking this and feeling strange then BAM, she runs from the little fire.  What happened?   I think Bran’s thoughts were so entrenched in comforting Meera that he just slipped a little too close for Meera’s comfort.   Maybe right under her skin.  

Meera began to cry.

Bran hated being crippled then. "Don't cry," he said. He wanted to put his arms around her, hold her tight the way his mother used to hold him back at Winterfell when he'd hurt himself. She was right there, only a few feet from him, but so far out of reach it might have been a hundred leagues. To touch her he would need to pull himself along the ground with his hands, dragging his legs behind him. The floor was rough and uneven, and it would be slow going, full of scrapes and bumps. I could put on Hodor's skin, he thought. Hodor could hold her and pat her on the back. The thought made Bran feel strange, but he was still thinking it when Meera bolted from the fire, back out into the darkness of the tunnels. He heard her steps recede until there was nothing but the voices of the singers.  ADWD Bran 3

My understanding of this paragraph hasn’t changed since my initial read.  Bran wanted to comfort Meera.  He thought of skin changing Hodor in order to hold her and pat her on the back.  Bran doesn’t seem to register Meera leaving.  He’s disconnected from his body and feeling strange even as the sound of her steps fades.  

This wasn’t an act of will.  This was a subconscious effort to comfort Meera in a physical sense.  Bran’s only thought is to comfort Meera much like that initial skinchanging where there was only the urgency of quieting Hodor.  It seems that Bran has graduated from having to work at skin changing to merely considering it to make it happen.   Meera isn’t meek Hodor.  She’s a protector and hunter and fighter.   Bran’s lurking about her interior creeps her out so much she runs off.  This reminds me of “the push” in Firestarter from conscious effort to second nature.  But Bran’s nose doesn’t bleed.  Without consequence what is Bran really capable of?  

I think we will learn that Meera felt encroached upon during this scene.  Bran will come to understand his power and the imperative to control it.  Will he unconsciously channel  Jojen, Leaf or even Bloodraven?  Jon, Arya or Rickon?  Theon?  Will he learn what this power is specifically for in conjunction with the laws of abomination held by the Wildlings?  Is this ability restrained by distance?  What if Bran never learns to control himself?  There is a lot to anticipate from the Last Greenseer.   Could Bloodraven's living entombment in the weirwood be a measure to contain his skinchanging ability?  What possibility do you see in Bran’s ability to skinchange humans?  Do you think Bran inadvertently buzzed Meera?    

*Please note that I’m not a mystic or parapsychologist.  The list of psychic abilities is something I found in the wiki.  If you have a chance to go through the list you may end up with even more than I’ve listed here, but I was trying to keep it simple.   Apologies if I’ve used any of these terms out of context.   They simply sounded right to me.

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48 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Do you think Bran inadvertently buzzed Meera?    

Holy shnikies CF! I had never considered this, but I think you may be on to something. That whole scene is so strange, I could never figure out Meera's reaction. This may be the reason for it.

The precedent of Bran's accidental skinchange of Hodor (the first time) gives this idea a lot of credit. It makes sense for Bran to accidentally skinchange Meera in a moment where he is trying to comfort her, just like he was trying to comfort Hodor to calm him down. 

I like it! I look forward to seeing some good discussion here.

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Ah thanks @OtherFromAnotherMother,I'm looking forward to it too.    Been working on this for a week or so since the last Bran thread I participated in.  

I thought Meera's reaction was pretty far out of character.   She's a badass--what could send her bolting from anything?  I used to pshaw all those readers who reckoned Bran would have to live out his life as a tree.   The more I've pondered this the more sense it all makes.   Bran's basically a good boy.   He can do the right thing.    Isolation may be the only way to contain this power.  

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1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

Do you think Bran inadvertently buzzed Meera?

What do you mean by 'buzzed'?

Yes.  He definitely started encroaching on her consciousness, although with well-meaning intent.

The poor boy never wanted to be married to a tree.

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Interesting questions.  Hard to say what happened in the cave.

I've always thought Jons dream in ADWD was a targ prophetic vision showing a future event where Bran will communicate with Jon while he is dead and in Ghost in Winds.  I know you don't think he is dead it just seems relevant to the topic.

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18 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

What do you mean by 'buzzed'?

Yes.  He definitely started encroaching on her consciousness, although with well-meaning intent.

The poor boy never wanted to be married to a tree.

If you know any male over the age of say 8 and have ever observed them, particularly in groups, with miniature RF helicopters and women with long or well coiffed hair...they don't crash land but do love to get the little helicopters tangled in their hair.   They don't crash into anyone's head but mess with their hair.    I don't think Bran fully invaded or skin changed Meera, but he got in close enough for her to know he was there.  

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8 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

Interesting questions.  Hard to say what happened in the cave.

I've always thought Jons dream in ADWD was a targ prophetic vision showing a future event where Bran will communicate with Jon while he is dead and in Ghost in Winds.  I know you don't think he is dead it just seems relevant to the topic.

It is absolutely.   Jon also had a dream about a tree touching his forehead and urging him to open his 3rd eye.  Who else could that be but Bran?   Bloodraven has no direct connection to Jon and Bran suffers from unbridled psychic ability.  Bran's already shown us he can communicate or at least watch in dreams.   Remember way back when Ned was on the road to Kings Landing and Sansa tells him she dreamed Bran smiled?  I'm beginning to think any dream Bran shows up in may be a communication of sorts.   

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1 minute ago, Curled Finger said:

It is absolutely.   Jon also had a dream about a tree touching his forehead and urging him to open his 3rd eye.  Who else could that be but Bran?   Bloodraven has no direct connection to Jon and Bran suffers from unbridled psychic ability.  Bran's already shown us he can communicate or at least watch in dreams.   Remember way back when Ned was on the road to Kings Landing and Sansa tells him she dreamed Bran smiled?  I'm beginning to think any dream Bran shows up in may be a communication of sorts.   

Definitely, for the record the dream where the weirwood touches his forehead is the dream I'm referring to.  I know a lot of people think it already happened but I think we will get an extended version in winds where Bran tells Jon lots of stuff and he will have the knowledge when he "wakes up".

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I'm sorry @aryagonnakill#2--I thought you were speaking of the dream where Jon wears the armor and everyone dies.   Ok, we are on the same page now that I understand.   For all it's worth, I'm with you 100%.  We don't see a lot of voodoo in Jon.   He wargs and has weird dreams.   That dream could very easily have been a dragon dream urging Jon to open himself up to magic.  What is that tree watching Arya in her wolf dream for?  He's learning how to connect with all of the Stark kids.   

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Hey @Curled Finger! Always enjoy your posts mi amigo, very insightful with a good sprinkling of fun!

5 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

This wasn’t an act of will.  This was a subconscious effort to comfort Meera in a physical sense.  Bran’s only thought is to comfort Meera much like that initial skinchanging where there was only the urgency of quieting Hodor.  It seems that Bran has graduated from having to work at skin changing to merely considering it to make it happen.   Meera isn’t meek Hodor.  She’s a protector and hunter and fighter.   Bran’s lurking about her interior creeps her out so much she runs off.  This reminds me of “the push” in Firestarter from conscious effort to second nature.  But Bran’s nose doesn’t bleed.  Without consequence what is Bran really capable of?  

That's a badass interpretation and something I had never considered :-)

After reading this, Bran buzzing Meera certainly seems the soundest reason for her dramatic exit. If human skinchanging is considered taboo amongst the wildlings, I dare say The Crannogmen could have similiar opinions. Even if this is not a big no-no in her culture, one could understand why Meera would be freaked out. 

6 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

  Will he unconsciously channel  Jojen, Leaf or even Bloodraven?  Jon, Arya or Rickon?  Theon? 

Bran channeling any of this bunch would certainly be a magnificent display of psychic strength. Jojen, Leaf and Bloodraven represent magic more than most other characters in the series, and the power of The Old Gods flows deep in each. To Skinchange any of these three could perhaps help Bran further enhance his own abilities. We know animals leave a certain fingerprint on the mind of their beastling, such as "Bird Beastlings" staring at the sky,  so maybe entering a magical human/COTF mind would cause some information or power to "bleed" over between conciousnesses. If The Three Eyed Crow does indeed have positive intentions and sees The Winged Wolf as his heir and successor, wouldn't Brynden want Bran to enter his mind? Bran bringing the mighty Bloodravens psyche to heel like a whipped cur would perhaps represent the highest level of human skinchanging possible.

9 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Will he learn what this power is specifically for in conjunction with the laws of abomination held by the Wildlings? 

I wonder how much reverance The Three Eyed Crow has for the Wildling Laws of Abomination, and if he feels these cultural taboos are more important than Bran having mastery of his abilities. It doesn't seem like Lord Brynden has skinchanged anyone in Bran's party whilst guiding them North of The Wall, then again it could be rather difficult to tell. Perhaps Bran's journey would have been easier had Bloodraven himself entered the mind of Hodor on several occasions such as his crying at the Nightfort and the fight with the Wights. This could signify that The Three Eyed Crow upholds the Laws of Abomination and didn't want Bran, himself or anyone else entering human minds. Another possibility is that he didn't intervene in such situations because he wanted to test Bran and see if the broken boy was powerful enough to enter a human mind. 

While the thought of entering a human mind may seem vulgar to some, would Lord Rivers see it as any less wrong than entering another animals mind? Keep in mind that Bloodraven has spent years bonded to a tree, and has obviously had some kind of training from the COTF. The Gaia like Children refer to themselves as "Those Who Sing The Songs of Earth", a title that suggests a supernatural connection to all natural life, so I'd imagine they wouldn't consider a human mind any less sacred than that of a wolf or raven. During the Stark Wolf Dreams, we get to hear Ghost and Summers thoughts, and while more focused on senses and prey than standard human thought, the Direwolves minds seem structured similiarly to humans. They recognise other wolves,plot and plan, praise and insult. While Summer may refer to a sword as a "claw", the young Direwolf clearly understands the scenario. Keep in mind that even in the real world, humans are still animals.

Now I'm not saying that animals in real life or the books have comparable intelect to ours, however the natural instincts of an animal are pound for pound just as mentally impressive as the wisdom of humans. Why would a raven need or want thumbs and a printing press when it can fly? A wolf can use its heightened senses to perceive the world in ways we can't begin to fathom, showing a more advanced knowledge in their own way. In our world, the citizens of the animal kingdom are sometimes viewed as no more than "furniture" - objects placed here for the mighty humans to interact with and do to as they please. This mode of thinking can be attributed to many factors such as religious teachings, out of date science and general ignorance/arrogance - each thought process being shown at points in the books through Wildling culture

The only animals who seem to make a serious dent in the stability and health of the earth/planetos are humans and possibly dragons. This is something I could see The Singers having similiar opinions on. Most of The Elder Races are all but gone now and most likely due to good old fashioned First Men butchery. How much of this inter-species genocide would be accesible through The Weirwood Net? The Singers themselves have felt the full brunt of human brutality, and are be no strangers to the vanity and cruety shown by man. If this is the case, then I cant see Bloodraven and The Singers having a problem with same species skinchanging. We know The COTF and perhaps all other living things go into The Weirwood Net upon death, which is, in it's own way, similiar to sharing the mind of ones fellow man/beast.

On the other hand entering a fellow member of your species mind perhaps may cause madness or evil to set in, which could be why it's such a big no-no to Varamyr and co. Could their be some ancient greenseer prophecy about the evils of Skinchanging ones own race? Maybe it's that human inteligence I was talking about earlier that makes some fear to touch a Homo-Sapien mind. Due to the impressive capacity for invention shown by our race, we are well placed to design weaponry that could destroy the natural world, both in the real world and in books (think possible Valyrian magic causing The Doom of Valyria, the power of Wildfire, and even poisons created by man). If one were able to control other human minds, near ultimate power could be reached over time, as one could control armies, sorcerors and alchemists, all of whom could seriously mess up the balance of nature in one form or another.

 

9 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

   Could Bloodraven's living entombment in the weirwood be a measure to contain his skinchanging ability?  What possibility do you see in Bran’s ability to skinchange humans?

Bloodravens entombment could certainly act as a safeguard against his power. The Weirwood Net has been shown to be a collective, bringing living minds together into the one being. If a Skinchanger were able to say, control more than one mind at a time, they could be able to bind the thought of others into another form of collective consciousness. This could perhaps block the strength of The Weirwood Net in some way?

It's cool to think that Lord Rivers could be being held captive in that cave. Perhaps The Singers are puppeteering the puppet master for their own nefarious gains?

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@Leo of House Cartel, when are you going to get an avatar?  It took me 3 years.   I enjoy reading you excited about a thing.   You dive deep into the premise and bring so much possibility to it.   I'm very pleased to have plucked a string of possibility in your wonderful mind.  This latest research into Bran and his skinchanging has opened me up to possibility I've staunchly rejected for years.    The Children may not be good guys.   Bran may have to do things as dirty and underhanded as Cersei to get his job done.   Bloodraven may be the cause of Jojen's sickness.    He does, after all, have to get the kids and Hodor to the cave.   Perhaps a sound mind can take an alien inhabitant, but a price must be paid.    This is creepier than the Jojen paste idea if you ask me.   Again, this is the Firestarter taint on my thinking.   

There was a crude saying back in the '70's that I find increasingly pertinent: Ass, Grass or Gas, No One Rides For Free.   There were energy and oil shortages in the US and as I say it was crude, but that is the distinct and foul vibe Bran's tale is leaving me with.  Jojen appears to be a sacrifice.  Hodor appears to be a sacrifice.  

As you so eloquently stated, there may be no taboo against human skinchanging among the COTF.   Human may be no more valuable than any other animal.   That's brilliant and I'm going to run with it, Leo.   If as you say Bran can skinchange BR or the children he may well be able to absorb even greater power.   I wonder if this is how BR will finally earn his death.   He's got to be tired by now. 

Ser Leo, you've made really nice connections and a beautiful analysis of the point I attempted to make in the OP.   Thank you so much for bringing your words here, Leo.  

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8 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I'm sorry @aryagonnakill#2--I thought you were speaking of the dream where Jon wears the armor and everyone dies.   Ok, we are on the same page now that I understand.   For all it's worth, I'm with you 100%.  We don't see a lot of voodoo in Jon.   He wargs and has weird dreams.   That dream could very easily have been a dragon dream urging Jon to open himself up to magic.  What is that tree watching Arya in her wolf dream for?  He's learning how to connect with all of the Stark kids.   

Ya it seems like he is capable of reaching them in their dreams.  I wonder if he is not able to connect with Sansa due to the lack of wolf dreams/Targ prophetic dreams.

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6 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

Ya it seems like he is capable of reaching them in their dreams.  I wonder if he is not able to connect with Sansa due to the lack of wolf dreams/Targ prophetic dreams.

I'm not sure about Sansa.   Seems to me if Bran is as powerful as I suspect, he should be able to communicate with anyone.   The big block on this avenue of reason is that Bloodraven hasn't said a word about Dany.   Is it possible he actually doesn't know about her? Then there is the distance thing.   Is there a limit to how far a greenseer's net of intel can reach?  Arya is pretty far away so that gives me hope that Bran's abilities are far reaching.   

Sansa told Ned she had a dream about Bran smiling.   She later has a dream about Lady (after Lady is killed).   I've done a little research into the Lady dream and haven't been able to convince myself it's more than a regular dream.   Still Sansa is a Stark and is by blood magical.  It's entirely possible the wolves are the key to unlocking their power and Sansa may only have a tiny bit of power because of the short time with Lady.   In short, I think it could go either way with Bran "touching" Sansa.   

This ability to reach people in dreams is causing me to reexamine all the dreams in story.  Is it possible Bran can reach say Tyrion and Cersei in their bizarre dreams?   

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This is really thought-provoking.

I have to say I don't think Varamyr's assessment of the ease or difficulty of skinchanging a direwolf makes any difference in this case. Bran and Summer had a deep bond before he even started having any idea of his skinchanging ability. Varamyr on the other hand forces his presence and consciousness into animals with whom he has no bond, and who want nothing to do with him, so while it would be difficult for him, it was not for Bran. It might very well be Varamyr's lack of sensitivity and compassion that makes it hard for him to skinchange, and while he prides himself on "breaking" his bond animals it's really just proof that he's scum. I suspect the greatest, or perhaps smartest or the least villainous skinchangers do not force their bond animals, but use gentler means of creating the bond.

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7 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I'm not sure about Sansa.   Seems to me if Bran is as powerful as I suspect, he should be able to communicate with anyone.   The big block on this avenue of reason is that Bloodraven hasn't said a word about Dany.   Is it possible he actually doesn't know about her? Then there is the distance thing.   Is there a limit to how far a greenseer's net of intel can reach?  Arya is pretty far away so that gives me hope that Bran's abilities are far reaching.   

Sansa told Ned she had a dream about Bran smiling.   She later has a dream about Lady (after Lady is killed).   I've done a little research into the Lady dream and haven't been able to convince myself it's more than a regular dream.   Still Sansa is a Stark and is by blood magical.  It's entirely possible the wolves are the key to unlocking their power and Sansa may only have a tiny bit of power because of the short time with Lady.   In short, I think it could go either way with Bran "touching" Sansa.   

This ability to reach people in dreams is causing me to reexamine all the dreams in story.  Is it possible Bran can reach say Tyrion and Cersei in their bizarre dreams?   

As for BR not mentioning Dany, he hasn't really mentioned anyone or anything outside the WW's, and he hasn't even really talked about them.  More just skinchange that bird, now skinchange this tree.

Hopefully we will get a lot more in the next book, but I suspect Brans time in the cave will be limited.  I always thought he would return via Gorns way and that theory of mine got a solid boost last year.

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44 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

As for BR not mentioning Dany, he hasn't really mentioned anyone or anything outside the WW's, and he hasn't even really talked about them.  More just skinchange that bird, now skinchange this tree.

Hopefully we will get a lot more in the next book, but I suspect Brans time in the cave will be limited.  I always thought he would return via Gorns way and that theory of mine got a solid boost last year.

I think that's a distinct and logical possibility.   Digging the whole prospect of this subterranean journey and what the kids may encounter. 

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20 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Do you think Bran inadvertently buzzed Meera?

If he did it, the message is clear: you can use skichanging for doing some things, maybe comunicate, but not for being in an intimate relationship with someone. People can't stand it. 

He is overstimolated in the cave. Besides magic, the dark and the isolation are used to stimulate "powers" and "senses"

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10 minutes ago, Cridefea said:

If he did it, the message is clear: you can use skichanging for doing some things, maybe comunicate, but not for being in an intimate relationship with someone. People can't stand it. 

He is overstimolated in the cave. Besides magic, the dark and the isolation are used to stimulate "powers" and "senses"

Oh holy cow, I never even imagined it as intimate.   Gads, paradigm changer!  And the cave as a sensory deprivation chamber enhancing, perhaps focusing his powerful magic.   Well done, Cridefea!   

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Mmmm......It's the first time I have considered that Bran might have skinchanged Meera. I'm still trying to assimilate it. Interesting.

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7 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Mmmm......It's the first time I have considered that Bran might have skinchanged Meera. I'm still trying to assimilate it. Interesting.

Love to hear what you have to say about after you've tossed it around for a while.   

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