Skin Changing and The Last Greenseer

[Dorian Martell's son]

On 3/6/2017 at 6:40 PM, Curled Finger said:

 Do you think Bran inadvertently buzzed Meera?    

 

*Please note that I’m not a mystic or parapsychologist.  The list of psychic abilities is something I found in the wiki.  If you have a chance to go through the list you may end up with even more than I’ve listed here, but I was trying to keep it simple.   Apologies if I’ve used any of these terms out of context.   They simply sounded right to me.

 

Not at all. she is under great distress. She is trapped in a cave, far beyond any realm of humanity, surrounded by the undead and possibly the others, and her brother is slowly wasting away. He wants to go home, and home means death. She is deeply upset and ran away as she started to cry, because she is a strong person and does not want to show weakness to Bran, possibly out of love 

[Curled Finger]

10 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Not at all. she is under great distress. She is trapped in a cave, far beyond any realm of humanity, surrounded by the undead and possibly the others, and her brother is slowly wasting away. He wants to go home, and home means death. She is deeply upset and ran away as she started to cry, because she is a strong person and does not want to show weakness to Bran, possibly out of love 

Thanks, I was hoping for some opposition.   That seems to be the answer or much like it, that I received when I first began asking about this.   

[Dorian Martell's son]

Just now, Curled Finger said:

Thanks, I was hoping for some opposition.   That seems to be the answer or much like it, that I received when I first began asking about this.   

I would argue that aside from hodor who is "simple," the example we have of skinchanging a person was traumatic and painful, even if it was someone that had a bond with the skinchanger, like thistle, who spent time taking care of and nursing varamyr. 

[Curled Finger]

2 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

I would argue that aside from hodor who is "simple," the example we have of skinchanging a person was traumatic and painful, even if it was someone that had a bond with the skinchanger, like thistle, who spent time taking care of and nursing varamyr. 

Thanks again.   I made my argument in the OP so I have to leave it there.   

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

I think it might be helpful to look at Bran's first Hodor skinchange and the Meera event in question together. 

The moments have some similarities and IF Bran does inadvertently try to skinchange Meera it would be similar to the Hodor skinchange, being that Bran did not do it on purpose.

First the Hodor skinchange: 

Quote

Lightning slashed the sky, and Hodor whimpered. Then a clap of thunder rolled across the lake. “HODOR!” he roared, clapping his hands over his ears and stumbling in a circle through the darkness. “HODOR! HODOR! HODOR!”

“NO!” Bran shouted back. “NO HODORING!”

It did no good. “HOOOODOR!” moaned Hodor. Meera tried to catch him and calm him, but he was too strong. He flung her aside with no more than a shrug. “HOOOOOODOOOOOOOR!” the stableboy screamed as lightning filled the sky again, and even Jojen was shouting now, shouting at Bran and Meera to shut him up.

“Be quiet!” Bran said in a shrill scared voice, reaching up uselessly for Hodor’s leg as he crashed past, reaching, reaching.

Hodor staggered, and closed his mouth. He shook his head slowly from side to side, sank back to the floor, and sat crosslegged. When the thunder boomed, he scarcely seemed to hear it. The four of them sat in the dark tower, scarce daring to breathe.

“Bran, what did you do?” Meera whispered.

“Nothing.” Bran shook his head. “I don’t know.” But he did. I reached for him, the way I reach for Summer. He had been Hodor for half a heartbeat. It scared him.

Reaching seems to be important here. Bran pointlessly tries to touch Hodor as he is walking around in a circle. I'll address this again.

He then skinchanges him. Is it obvious that Bran does not do it on purpose? I'm not so sure. Afterwards he says to himself, "but he did. I reached for him, the way I reach for Summer". I have no doubt that Bran did not think it would work, but I do think, in the moment, he was trying to skinchange him. 

Let's look at the Meera event in question.

Quote

“He’s being stupid,” Meera said. “I’d hoped that when we found your three-eyed crow … now I wonder why we ever came.”

For me, Bran thought. “His greendreams,” he said.

“His greendreams.” Meera’s voice was bitter.

“Hodor,” said Hodor.

Meera began to cry.

Bran hated being crippled then. “Don’t cry,” he said. He wanted to put his arms around her, hold her tight the way his mother used to hold him back at Winterfell when he’d hurt himself. She was right there, only a few feet from him, but so far out of reach it might have been a hundred leagues. To touch her he would need to pull himself along the ground with his hands, dragging his legs behind him. The floor was rough and uneven, and it would be slow going, full of scrapes and bumps. I could put on Hodor’s skin, he thought. Hodor could hold her and pat her on the back. The thought made Bran feel strange, but he was still thinking it when Meera bolted from the fire, back out into the darkness of the tunnels. He heard her steps recede until there was nothing but the voices of the singers.

The first similarity that jumped out to me was that in both situations Bran is wanting to comfort the other person, although for different reasons. Comforting Hodor to calm him down, comforting Meera to make her feel better. This isn't reason that we can say for sure it was an inadvertent skinchange attempt, but interesting nonetheless.

"To touch her he would need to pull himself along the ground, dragging his legs behind him." This could be seen as reaching, just like with Hodor. Admittedly though, this is a stretch. It would be much more convincing if George had used the word reaching.

There are a few more minor similarities. 

Hodor says "Hodor" in the Meera scene. Obviously he says Hodor several times in the tower scene. This is probably nothing, although maybe George trying to remind us of something.

It is dark in both scenes. The tower is dark and the cave is dark. We also have light provided by lightning in the tower and a fire in the cave. Probably nothing, although darkness seems to be a theme surrounding Bran and his growing powers.

 

I would be more convinced if Meera did not have another reason for her sudden exit. However, she was already crying and not wanting Bran to see her cry is a very logical explanation for the exit as pointed out by @Dorian Martell's son. Also, if George would have said "Bran tried to reach for Meera" it would have helped the argument.

Judging by comparing just these two scenes is not enough to form a solid conclusion. I was hoping that looking at the two scenes would confirm that Bran did inadvertently try to skinchange Meera. To my disappointment, however, it did not. At this time I'm leaning towards no, he did not. But never fear @Curled Finger. I'm going to keep searching. I want to believe!

[Leo of House Cartel]

23 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

How about if our Bloodraven has been dead all these years since his disappearance and this bit with the bonding to the tree is no more than some sort of ice magic or COTF magic twist on resurrection?  Still I agree that this bonding was probably required to complete BR's stint as the greenseer.   We see in the cave that many trees have faces with eyes that move or expression.   It may be the way the childrens' consciousness has to be absorbed, but I'm not so sure anymore that this is the right way to handle a human.  Brynden Rivers was a sorcerer among other things in his natural life.  Seems to me he would know better?  

Weekend at Brynden's? :-p 

Joking aside that is certainly an interesting possibility, and ties in nicely to your next question 

35 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

I left the other potential relationships with your fine expositions in place.   I would actually like to see more conversation about this. Hint, hint--neat 1st topic idea.   I think I need to decide if Bran, Bloodraven and/or the children are pawns or players in this--and to what degree and on which side.   Do you think they are all on the same team?  

(That's a cool idea for a topic, I'll see what I can do!)

While I can't answer with any certainty, there are many elements of the tale which make me think The Singers could be playing their own game. From the prejudice and genocide commited by the First Men and Andals, to the perhaps unfair end of the bargain recieved during The Pact, The Singers certainly have many reasons to dislike humanity. Because of the feudal society, the history of The Seven Kingdoms is a non-stop tome of blood letting, war and deceit.

Look at the impact the recent wars have left on the balance of nature in Westeros - burned forests, salted crops, displaced wildlife etc, all reasons for The Singers to be hostile.

Another element to consider is the apparent dwindling of The Singer's species as a whole. In The Dawn age, TCOTF would have been spread all across Westeros. (and possibly the rest of Planetos) Due to the magical, nature focused ways of their kind, it's likely they acted as "gardeners" or "caretakers" for the earth itself, helping the ebb and flow of the ecosystem to move along unmolested. Due to the First Men and Andal attrocities, the cutting down of Weirwoods and the Pact relegating The Singers to the deep wood, The Singers risk going the way of the Great Lions of The Western Mountains, and their numbers must already be at an all time low. As humans became the dominant race in Westeros, they would by default take The Singers place as "Stewards of the earth", and they certainly could be accused of neglecting their duties.

Now, it does seem that The Singers are working with Bloodraven as opposing forces to The Others, however I can't find anything in the text which states that The Singers and Others have a negative relationship. (anyone care to help me out?) Now we know Leaf dropped snow on the Wights heads outside of the cave, but wights are thralls, pawns to be manipulated and disposed of. We also have the tales pretaining to The Last Hero seeking out The Children of The Forest during The Long Night, but remember, it was not until all of his companions had died. 

Many assume The Singers and Others would act as opposing forces due to the Ice vs Nature dynamic. Ice does indeed kill most organic material, however Ice also preserves. Whilst the most recent Ice Age in our time would have certainly caused mass extinction, life on Earth did indeed go on and begin anew. Same goes for The Long Night, and that particular event is something The Singers themselves lived through. Could it be then that The Singers, unimpressed by the poor job humanity have done as "Gardeners of Planetos", are actively encouraging The White Walkers' progress?

The Hammer of The Waves is a peculiar event, which is often portrayed as The Singers way of breaking the arm of Dorne to stop any more First Men entering Westeros. If the Children and The Others are on the same page then I think a scenario just as likely could be Those Who Sing The Song of Earth broke The Arm of Dorne during or before The Long Night, as a way to lock the humans in Westeros with The Others.   

Don't get me wrong, The Singers may have encouraged The Long Night and in turn screwed The Others over by arming the Last Hero with Dragonglass/steel, but there is alot of evidence which suggests The Singers, and the natural order of Westeros, stand to gain alot more through the downfall of humanity than they would under the current rule of Man.

Who Bloodraven is working for is anyone's guess. From the evidence we have, it would seem the prophecy obsessed, sorcerous Lord Rivers may have wanted to get lost beyond The Wall. (I've got an idea for a topic which will cover this in more detail but for now please bare with me) I've always had a hunch that King Egg sending Bloodraven to The Wall was a mutual agreement, long planned before Bryndens trial. We know Aegon V was another believer in the higher mysteries, and while it may have been the "honourable" thing to do, making one of the most naturaly gifted Hand of The Kings ever take the black for murdering a Blackfyre seems like a fool's game. Unless of course, Egg sent his "cousin" North on some kind of recon mission. As you know, Bloodraven was allowed to take the sole remaining Targaryen VS blade Dark Sister with him, and was accompanied by an honour guard, Maester Aemon and Dunk - a lot of pomp, circumstance and infrastructure for someone who was being punished. It almost seems like Aegon was setting Brynden up with a stong footing in The Watch, with many resources which would be helpful to someone seeking the title of Lord Commander, and The LC is privvy to much of the lore and old texts found at The Wall.

Now the circumstances surrounding Bloodravens entrance to the cave remain a mystery, but a probable angle to look at is he was being contacted in a similiar manner to Bran, through telepathy etc. Whether or not this "reaching out" was done by a previous Last Greenseer or The Children of The Forest remains to be seen, but the prolonged life span and tree bonding suggest Bloodravens natural abilities would at one point have been thought of in the same way Bran's powers are viewed. Your suggestion of Rivers being entombed may have a lot of weight, and the situation in the cave could be construed as The Singers using Bloodraven as psionic livestock, slowly milking the former Hand and Lord Commander of his Greenseer energy. The Children, as living embodiments of the force of nature,  could have much in common with the nature in our universe - violent, changeable and generally uninterested in the problems associated with the human condition.

[Curled Finger]

2 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

I think it might be helpful to look at Bran's first Hodor skinchange and the Meera event in question together. 

The moments have some similarities and IF Bran does inadvertently try to skinchange Meera it would be similar to the Hodor skinchange, being that Bran did not do it on purpose.

First the Hodor skinchange: 

Reaching seems to be important here. Bran pointlessly tries to touch Hodor as he is walking around in a circle. I'll address this again.

He then skinchanges him. Is it obvious that Bran does not do it on purpose? I'm not so sure. Afterwards he says to himself, "but he did. I reached for him, the way I reach for Summer". I have no doubt that Bran did not think it would work, but I do think, in the moment, he was trying to skinchange him. 

Let's look at the Meera event in question.

The first similarity that jumped out to me was that in both situations Bran is wanting to comfort the other person, although for different reasons. Comforting Hodor to calm him down, comforting Meera to make her feel better. This isn't reason that we can say for sure it was an inadvertent skinchange attempt, but interesting nonetheless.

"To touch her he would need to pull himself along the ground, dragging his legs behind him." This could be seen as reaching, just like with Hodor. Admittedly though, this is a stretch. It would be much more convincing if George had used the word reaching.

There are a few more minor similarities. 

Hodor says "Hodor" in the Meera scene. Obviously he says Hodor several times in the tower scene. This is probably nothing, although maybe George trying to remind us of something.

It is dark in both scenes. The tower is dark and the cave is dark. We also have light provided by lightning in the tower and a fire in the cave. Probably nothing, although darkness seems to be a theme surrounding Bran and his growing powers.

 

I would be more convinced if Meera did not have another reason for her sudden exit. However, she was already crying and not wanting Bran to see her cry is a very logical explanation for the exit as pointed out by @Dorian Martell's son. Also, if George would have said "Bran tried to reach for Meera" it would have helped the argument.

Judging by comparing just these two scenes is not enough to form a solid conclusion. I was hoping that looking at the two scenes would confirm that Bran did inadvertently try to skinchange Meera. To my disappointment, however, it did not. At this time I'm leaning towards no, he did not. But never fear @Curled Finger. I'm going to keep searching. I want to believe!

I'm impressed that you researched it for yourself and proud of myself for including pretty much all the pertinent text.  I agree it's not conclusive, only one interpretation of the scene.   It was and is Meera's sudden exit that persuaded me that Bran "reached" for her.  Well that and Bran feeling strange.   It's odd he doesn't seem to snap out of this strange feeling and acknowledge Meera's departure. Still, it's very good to know you were inspired to take to the text to make up your own mind or at least consider my idea.  We don't have to agree to enjoy our conflicting takes on anything.   Your emoji would be the clanking beer mugs just because I like the effort you put into follow up here.    If I find any further substantiating evidence you will be the 1st to know, my friend! 

[Curled Finger]

2 hours ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

Weekend at Brynden's? :-p 

Joking aside that is certainly an interesting possibility, and ties in nicely to your next question 

(That's a cool idea for a topic, I'll see what I can do!)

While I can't answer with any certainty, there are many elements of the tale which make me think The Singers could be playing their own game. From the prejudice and genocide commited by the First Men and Andals, to the perhaps unfair end of the bargain recieved during The Pact, The Singers certainly have many reasons to dislike humanity. Because of the feudal society, the history of The Seven Kingdoms is a non-stop tome of blood letting, war and deceit.

Look at the impact the recent wars have left on the balance of nature in Westeros - burned forests, salted crops, displaced wildlife etc, all reasons for The Singers to be hostile.

Another element to consider is the apparent dwindling of The Singer's species as a whole. In The Dawn age, TCOTF would have been spread all across Westeros. (and possibly the rest of Planetos) Due to the magical, nature focused ways of their kind, it's likely they acted as "gardeners" or "caretakers" for the earth itself, helping the ebb and flow of the ecosystem to move along unmolested. Due to the First Men and Andal attrocities, the cutting down of Weirwoods and the Pact relegating The Singers to the deep wood, The Singers risk going the way of the Great Lions of The Western Mountains, and their numbers must already be at an all time low. As humans became the dominant race in Westeros, they would by default take The Singers place as "Stewards of the earth", and they certainly could be accused of neglecting their duties.

Now, it does seem that The Singers are working with Bloodraven as opposing forces to The Others, however I can't find anything in the text which states that The Singers and Others have a negative relationship. (anyone care to help me out?) Now we know Leaf dropped snow on the Wights heads outside of the cave, but wights are thralls, pawns to be manipulated and disposed of. We also have the tales pretaining to The Last Hero seeking out The Children of The Forest during The Long Night, but remember, it was not until all of his companions had died. 

Many assume The Singers and Others would act as opposing forces due to the Ice vs Nature dynamic. Ice does indeed kill most organic material, however Ice also preserves. Whilst the most recent Ice Age in our time would have certainly caused mass extinction, life on Earth did indeed go on and begin anew. Same goes for The Long Night, and that particular event is something The Singers themselves lived through. Could it be then that The Singers, unimpressed by the poor job humanity have done as "Gardeners of Planetos", are actively encouraging The White Walkers' progress?

The Hammer of The Waves is a peculiar event, which is often portrayed as The Singers way of breaking the arm of Dorne to stop any more First Men entering Westeros. If the Children and The Others are on the same page then I think a scenario just as likely could be Those Who Sing The Song of Earth broke The Arm of Dorne during or before The Long Night, as a way to lock the humans in Westeros with The Others.   

Don't get me wrong, The Singers may have encouraged The Long Night and in turn screwed The Others over by arming the Last Hero with Dragonglass/steel, but there is alot of evidence which suggests The Singers, and the natural order of Westeros, stand to gain alot more through the downfall of humanity than they would under the current rule of Man.

Who Bloodraven is working for is anyone's guess. From the evidence we have, it would seem the prophecy obsessed, sorcerous Lord Rivers may have wanted to get lost beyond The Wall. (I've got an idea for a topic which will cover this in more detail but for now please bare with me) I've always had a hunch that King Egg sending Bloodraven to The Wall was a mutual agreement, long planned before Bryndens trial. We know Aegon V was another believer in the higher mysteries, and while it may have been the "honourable" thing to do, making one of the most naturaly gifted Hand of The Kings ever take the black for murdering a Blackfyre seems like a fool's game. Unless of course, Egg sent his "cousin" North on some kind of recon mission. As you know, Bloodraven was allowed to take the sole remaining Targaryen VS blade Dark Sister with him, and was accompanied by an honour guard, Maester Aemon and Dunk - a lot of pomp, circumstance and infrastructure for someone who was being punished. It almost seems like Aegon was setting Brynden up with a stong footing in The Watch, with many resources which would be helpful to someone seeking the title of Lord Commander, and The LC is privvy to much of the lore and old texts found at The Wall.

Now the circumstances surrounding Bloodravens entrance to the cave remain a mystery, but a probable angle to look at is he was being contacted in a similiar manner to Bran, through telepathy etc. Whether or not this "reaching out" was done by a previous Last Greenseer or The Children of The Forest remains to be seen, but the prolonged life span and tree bonding suggest Bloodravens natural abilities would at one point have been thought of in the same way Bran's powers are viewed. Your suggestion of Rivers being entombed may have a lot of weight, and the situation in the cave could be construed as The Singers using Bloodraven as psionic livestock, slowly milking the former Hand and Lord Commander of his Greenseer energy. The Children, as living embodiments of the force of nature,  could have much in common with the nature in our universe - violent, changeable and generally uninterested in the problems associated with the human condition.

Hmph.  Now you've got 2 new topics coming up I can't wait to read!  I've given your ideas about the circumstances for Lord Rivers being sent north some real thought.  You lay out a plausible scenario.  Certainly more well thought out than many others I've read.  I don't know what happened, but this conspiracy or something very much like this seems far more realistic than the company line.   Particularly if Bloodraven was already being contacted while still in custody in Kings Landing...or before.  Prophesy would demand he go north.  I'm going to go back and read Maester Aemon to see if I can glean anything further regarding an ulterior prophetic motive he might have had in going north WITH Bloodraven.  Still I have to agree that King Egg lost a great deal in sending this powerful and influential host north.   He was, after all, King of the realm and surely could have kept Bloodraven as his Hand.  Now I wonder if Bloodraven wasn't a sacrifice as well.

I've thought much the same regarding the children.   They seem to be cute little Bambi elves and have at least The Pact and their aid to The Last Hero and assist to Bran & Co in reaching the cave to their credit.  But they are hanging out in a cave littered with bones with possible hostages and could easily turn out to be the real little demon monkeys now couldn't they?  However, it never once crossed my mind that the children may have attempted to lock the humans in Westeros with the Others.   You are diabolical.   That's really good stuff, Man.  Reading and rereading your paragraphs above I think it's time for a 3rd possibility for the COTF: are they only on their own team against both The Others and Humans?  If they are bleeding Bloodraven for his power it would have to be for a cause important to them.   Not necessarily anyone else.  Leaf appears to be resigned to the dwindling -read inevitable demise- of her kind.  She seems to understand her extinction.  The many times I've read this I thought the underlying meaning was that man would have to take over the care of Westeros.   You've already explained what a lousy job man has made as a caretaker.  Perhaps Leaf is actually explaining a reason for the sacrifices to the sacrifice?  Oh man, Leo, I never realized I was tainted by LOTR, but there it is.   

What have I learned?  You can't trust anyone in this story.  Now I'm wondering if Bran will be able to hide in people.  If Varamyr tells true, Bran could potentially live a second life in another human body.    

[ravenous reader]

On 3/6/2017 at 9:40 PM, Curled Finger said:

Meera began to cry.

 

Bran hated being crippled then. "Don't cry," he said. He wanted to put his arms around her, hold her tight the way his mother used to hold him back at Winterfell when he'd hurt himself. She was right there, only a few feet from him, but so far out of reach it might have been a hundred leagues. To touch her he would need to pull himself along the ground with his hands, dragging his legs behind him. The floor was rough and uneven, and it would be slow going, full of scrapes and bumps. I could put on Hodor's skin, he thought. Hodor could hold her and pat her on the back. The thought made Bran feel strange, but he was still thinking it when Meera bolted from the fire, back out into the darkness of the tunnels. He heard her steps recede until there was nothing but the voices of the singers.  ADWD Bran 3

As @Feather Crystal has correctly drawn to my attention recently, GRRM tends to use the verb 'reach ' in order to indicate Bran's desire to skinchange;

ETA: and @OtherFromAnotherMother has also recognized this trend; please see his insightful discussion of Bran's 'reaching reaching reaching..' (GRRM's magic number 3) above, especially on the occasion of Bran's inaugural skinchanging of Hodor in the lightning-struck tower.

Note, in the original text GRRM draws especial attention to the importance of the 'code' word 'reaching' in the context of initiating skinchanging by using italics for the third time this word is reiterated (magic number 3).  Moreover, the use of italics -- often missed, since the search tool eliminates this format -- also serves to indicate someone's unvoiced thoughts (e.g. Jaime's private thoughts).  Therefore, the italicized 'reaching', beyond merely indicating Bran physically reaching out with his hands/arms for Hodor's legs, indicates Bran mentally reaching out with his thoughts for Hodor's virtual legs (after all, by skinchanging Hodor, Bran is hijacking Hodor's mobility).  Incidentally, in the same passage the word 'quiet' is also italicized to indicate the force of Bran's thought (i.e. his intention is to silence Hodor, which he subsequently achieves via the skinchanging feat).

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Bran III

It did no good. "HOOOODOR!" moaned Hodor. Meera tried to catch him and calm him, but he was too strong. He flung her aside with no more than a shrug. "HOOOOOODOOOOOOOR!" the stableboy screamed as lightning filled the sky again, and even Jojen was shouting now, shouting at Bran and Meera to shut him up.

"Be quiet!" Bran said in a shrill scared voice, reaching up uselessly for Hodor's leg as he crashed past, reaching, reaching.

Hodor staggered, and closed his mouth. He shook his head slowly from side to side, sank back to the floor, and sat crosslegged. When the thunder boomed, he scarcely seemed to hear it. The four of them sat in the dark tower, scarce daring to breathe.

Now -- a literal interpretation of the scene with Meera admitting of no imagination will suffice to explain the circumstances.  She cried and she ran away as people often do who do not want others to see them cry.

On the other hand, we're reading GRRM, so as a first step let's scan the passage in question for the word 'reach' --

Ah, found it:  He wanted to touch Meera, but she was out of 'reach'!  Coincidental choice of vocabulary..?  Methinks not.

OK.  Still not convinced?  So -- let's look for synonyms for the desire to reach (GRRM enjoys his synonyms and circumlocutions):  'He wanted to put his arms around her'...i.e. he wanted to hug her, embrace her, hold her, reach out and touch her!  Please scan the passage for yourselves to locate the abundance of such synonyms.

Moreover, skinchanging an animal or a tree for that matter is often presented in terms of embracing someone, or even -- @Unchained is correct -- a more sexual trope (at its worst, a 'rape').  In another scene, Bran fantasizes about telling Meera he loves her while inside Hodor, so there is definitely a 'schoolboy crush' going on.

For example, both Ned and the greenseer are described in the following greenseeing encounter (no, it's not just sightseeing; it's an encounter in which psyches are touched and made conscious to one another) as being held in the mutual embrace of the weirwood tree, which cradles them as a mother would a child...Ah...a 'mother'...Let's look for a maternal image: 'Bran wanted to hold her tight the way his mother used to hold him when he was hurt...'  This interpretation is so easy; it's like stealing candy from a baby!

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

His father looked up. "Who's there?" he asked, turning …

… and Bran, frightened, pulled away. His father and the black pool and the godswood faded and were gone and he was back in the cavern, the pale thick roots of his weirwood throne cradling his limbs as a mother does a child. A torch flared to life before him.

"Tell us what you saw." From far away Leaf looked almost a girl, no older than Bran or one of his sisters, but close at hand she seemed far older. She claimed to have seen two hundred years.

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

Then all at once he was back home again.

Lord Eddard Stark sat upon a rock beside the deep black pool in the godswood, the pale roots of the heart tree twisting around him like an old man's gnarled arms. The greatsword Ice lay across Lord Eddard's lap, and he was cleaning the blade with an oilcloth.

"Winterfell," Bran whispered.

GRRM doesn't utilize the exact same phrasing -- or that would be too easy (like taking candy from a baby) -- so we have to make the baby connection ourselves.  The weirwood is holding Ned; in other words, Bran is the one in the paternal role (the 'old man's hands' are Bran's hands...you know, unborn Bran from the future, that one, who's paradoxically 'older' than his father, however much that blows your mind) holding his father as if he were his father's father, and not vice versa; just as in the cave Bran is held in the maternal embrace or cradle of the weirwood throne.  Reinforcing the baby analogy, the greenseers are described as 'nesting' on their weirwood cradles/thrones like baby birds or dragon hatchlings-- and as I've extrapolated they end up rather insidiously virtually 'nesting' in other people's and animals' bodies and minds.  

So, people -- now that we've identified that giving someone a hug may have something to do with greenseeing, and by extension skinchanging -- since what is greenseeing but skinchanging a tree? -- now let's proceed to look for other such hugs (behavior), or a desire/urge (thought/emotion) to give someone a hug or comfort them, which is like stepping into someone else's shoes or skin. As @evita mgfs so eloquently expressed it, the art of a skinchanger is about connecting 'empathetically' as well as 'telepathically' to another.  (By the way, no one I've ever encountered understands Bran's chapters as well as Evita -- and perhaps no-one ever will  )

Moving on -- yes -- so Bran wants to reach out and give Meera a hug; and he gets a funny sensation while thinking about it.  He's telepathically moving on her!  I challenge everyone to find me one greenseeing/skinchanging scene in which there's no strange, dizzy, nauseous or other weird feeling (this is GRRM's way of conveying the 'out-of-body' experience that is transpiring, as well as the abominable aspects of the transaction, which translates as an invasion, however 'co-operative' the host may appear...with the blood in the mouth, vomit in the back of the throat and so forth).  Maybe Meera bolted from the cave because the vomit was rising in the back of her throat, as it initially did with Hodor -- and she so decorously deferred to vomit outside the cave out of sight, instead of in front of her companions.  (As good an explanation -- and as viscerally uncompromising -- as any!)

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Bran IV

. . . he slipped his skin, and reached for Hodor.

It was not like sliding into Summer. That was so easy now that Bran hardly thought about it. This was harder, like trying to pull a left boot on your right foot. It fit all wrong, and the boot was scared too, the boot didn't know what was happening, the boot was pushing the foot away. He tasted vomit in the back of Hodor's throat, and that was almost enough to make him flee. Instead he squirmed and shoved, sat up, gathered his legs under him—his huge strong legs—and rose. I'm standing. He took a step. I'm walking. It was such a strange feeling that he almost fell. He could see himself on the cold stone floor, a little broken thing, but he wasn't broken now. He grabbed Hodor's longsword. The breathing was as loud as a blacksmith's bellows.

When Bran 'reaches' for someone, it's so uncomfortable -- like trying to squeeze into an ill-fitting shoe -- that the 'shoe' or 'host' wants to flee; in turn, the skinchanger feels like fleeing too.  

And now boys and girls -- what is a synonym for 'fleeing' -- running away, escaping, bolting...

Yes, like Meera did 'bolting from the fire'...She was indeed bolting from the fire -- running away from Brandon the firebrand with his intrusive power which like fire consumes all in its wake.  For more on Bran's extensive fire symbolism, please consult the discussion on @LmL's thread 'A Burning Brandon'.

On 3/7/2017 at 8:09 PM, Curled Finger said:

Thanks for that and welcome, Unchained.   What an interesting thing to happen upon.  Green and Bronze scaled frog killers.   I will have to toss that one around myself.  @ravenous reader will blow your mind many more times to come, I promise.   

Ha ha.  I'll take that as a compliment, kind Ser of the indecent moon-grabbing Curled Finger!  

I trust I 'blew your mind' sufficiently with this post -- unfortunately, the above interpretation is relatively straightforward and tame by my standards!

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

57 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

On the other hand, we're reading GRRM, so as a first step let's scan the passage in question for the word 'reach' --

Ah, found it:  He wanted to touch Meera, but she was out of 'reach'!  Coincidental choice of vocabulary..?  Methinks not.

Wow. This was exactly what I was looking for and completely overlooked it.  I'm embarrassed. Can I change my position now? I even said 

 

4 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Also, if George would have said "Bran tried to reach for Meera" it would have helped the argument.

Thanks RR for saving my optimism on this idea!

[ravenous reader]

Just now, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Wow. This was exactly what I was looking for and completely overlooked it.  I'm embarrassed. Can I change my position now? I even said 

 

Thanks RR for saving my optimism on this idea!

Don't thank me -- it's the wonderful collaboration over here, for example from @Feather Crystal who drew my attention to that particular turn of phrase!    And you -- we've had many marvellous discussions (although I'd prefer to forget about Cersei -- and Joffrey..)

[Melifeather]

13 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Don't thank me -- it's the wonderful collaboration over here, for example from @Feather Crystal who drew my attention to that particular turn of phrase!    And you -- we've had many marvellous discussions (although I'd prefer to forget about Cersei -- and Joffrey..)

It's nice to be recognized even if your preferred method of dissection is much different than mine. I wonder if your methods would help support my theory that whoever was the Knight f the Laughing tree involved skinchanging?

Getting back to the OP, I definitely think Bran buzzed Meera and she felt him trying to slip into her skin. Although I tend to think the "strange feelings" were sexual awakening.

[ravenous reader]

17 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

It's nice to be recognized even if your preferred method of dissection is much different than mine. I wonder if your methods would help support my theory that whoever was the Knight f the Laughing tree involved skinchanging?

I don't think our methods are always so different.  Identifying 'reaching' as one of GRRM's significant 'code' words required close inspection of the text!

Straight off, to bolster your theory, you could look at that telling phrase, 'the old gods lent strength to his hand'; and the legend of Symeon Star-Eyes, who one may infer from the available clues was a skinchanger (a two-in-one).  Remember Bran imagined becoming a knight by joining forces with or riding Hodor, evoking Symeon Star-Eyes:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Bran VII

"For a certainty," Maester Luwin agreed with a deep sigh. The maester was peering through his big Myrish lens tube, measuring shadows and noting the position of the comet that hung low in the morning sky. "Yet given time … Ser Rodrik has the truth of it, we need men to walk the walls. Your lord father took the cream of his guard to King's Landing, and your brother took the rest, along with all the likely lads for leagues around. Many will not come back to us, and we must needs find the men to take their places."

Bran stared resentfully at the sweating boys below. "If I still had my legs, I could beat them all." He remembered the last time he'd held a sword in his hand, when the king had come to Winterfell. It was only a wooden sword, yet he'd knocked Prince Tommen down half a hundred times. "Ser Rodrik should teach me to use a poleaxe. If I had a poleaxe with a big long haft, Hodor could be my legs. We could be a knight together."

Recently, I identified that a poleaxe (a medieval weapon with a blade mounted on a long pole) is related to pollux -- of the gemini constellation formed together by the twin stars 'castor and pollux' -- which got me thinking about Symeon Star-Eyes (an allusion to the singing duo 'Simon and Garfunkel') and his twin-bladed poleaxe.

18 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Getting back to the OP, I definitely think Bran buzzed Meera and she felt him trying to slip into her skin. Although I tend to think the "strange feelings" were sexual awakening.

I agree.  GRRM is so good at writing equivocal prose -- and getting all of us to argue about it ad infinitum.  The point is -- there's no need to argue -- both views are often valid, simultaneously!

[Curled Finger]

3 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

As @Feather Crystal has correctly drawn to my attention recently, GRRM tends to use the verb 'reach ' in order to indicate Bran's desire to skinchange.

Now -- a literal interpretation admitting of no imagination will suffice to explain the circumstances.  She cried and she ran away as people often do who do not want others to see them cry.

On the other hand, we're reading GRRM, so as a first step let's scan the passage in question for the word 'reach' --

Ah, found it:  He wanted to touch Meera, but she was out of 'reach'!  Coincidental choice of vocabulary..?  Methinks not.

OK.  Still not convinced?  So -- let's look for synonyms for the desire to reach (GRRM enjoys his synonyms and circumlocutions):  'He wanted to put his arms around her'...i.e. he wanted to hug her, embrace her, hold her, reach out and touch her!  Please scan the passage for yourselves to locate the abundance of such synonyms.

Moreover, skinchanging an animal or a tree for that matter is often presented in terms of embracing someone, or even -- @Unchained is correct -- a more sexual trope (at its worst, a 'rape').  In another scene, Bran fantasizes about telling Meera he loves her while inside Hodor, so there is definitely a 'schoolboy crush' going on.

For example, both Ned and the greenseer are described in the following greenseeing encounter (no, it's not just sightseeing; it's an encounter in which psyches are touched and made conscious to one another) as being held in the mutual embrace of the weirwood tree, which cradles them as a mother would a child...Ah...a 'mother'...Let's look for a maternal image: 'Bran wanted to hold her tight the way his mother used to hold him when he was hurt...'  This interpretation is so easy; it's like stealing candy from a baby!

GRRM doesn't utilize the exact same phrasing -- or that would be too easy (like taking candy from a baby) -- so we have to make the baby connection ourselves.  The weirwood is holding Ned; in other words, Bran is the one in the paternal role (the 'old man's hands' are Bran's hands...you know, unborn Bran from the future, that one, who's paradoxically 'older' than his father, however much that blows your mind) holding his father as if he were his father's father, and not vice versa; just as in the cave Bran is held in the maternal embrace or cradle of the weirwood throne.  Reinforcing the baby analogy, the greenseers are described as 'nesting' on their weirwood cradles/thrones like baby birds or dragon hatchlings-- and as I've extrapolated they end up rather insidiously virtually 'nesting' in other people's and animals' bodies and minds.  

So, people -- now that we've identified that giving someone a hug may have something to do with greenseeing, and by extension skinchanging -- since what is greenseeing but skinchanging a tree? -- now let's proceed to look for other such hugs (behavior), or a desire/urge (thought/emotion) to give someone a hug or comfort them, which is like stepping into someone else's shoes or skin. As @evita mgfs so eloquently expressed it, the art of a skinchanger is about connecting 'empathetically' as well as 'telepathically' to another.  (By the way, no one I've ever encountered understands Bran's chapters as well as Evita -- and perhaps no-one ever will  )

Moving on -- yes -- so Bran wants to reach out and give Meera a hug; and he gets a funny sensation while thinking about it.  He's telepathically moving on her!  I challenge everyone to find me one greenseeing/skinchanging scene in which there's no strange, dizzy, nauseous or other weird feeling (this is GRRM's way of conveying the 'out-of-body' experience that is transpiring, as well as the abominable aspects of the transaction, which translates as an invasion, however 'co-operative' the host may appear...with the blood in the mouth, vomit in the back of the throat and so forth).  Maybe Meera bolted from the cave because the vomit was rising in the back of her throat, as it initially did with Hodor -- and she so decorously deferred to vomit outside the cave out of sight, instead of in front of her companions.  (As good an explanation -- and as viscerally uncompromising -- as any!)

When Bran 'reaches' for someone, it's so uncomfortable -- like trying to squeeze into an ill-fitting shoe -- that the 'shoe' or 'host' wants to flee; in turn, the skinchanger feels like fleeing too.  

And now boys and girls -- what is a synonym for 'fleeing' -- running away, escaping, bolting...

Yes, like Meera did 'bolting from the fire'...She was indeed bolting from the fire -- running away from Brandon the firebrand with his intrusive power which like fire consumes all in its wake.  For more on Bran's extensive fire symbolism, please consult the discussion on @LmL's thread 'A Burning Brandon'.

Ha ha.  I'll take that as a compliment, kind Ser of the indecent moon-grabbing Curled Finger!  

I trust I 'blew your mind' sufficiently with this post -- unfortunately, the above interpretation is relatively straightforward and tame by my standards!

Indeed you did blow my mind and it was definitely a compliment.   I hope our friend @OtherFromAnotherMother has a chance to stop by and read your findings as I know he's interested and looking for his own.   I really appreciate the vote of confidence on this topic.  

[Curled Finger]

2 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Wow. This was exactly what I was looking for and completely overlooked it.  I'm embarrassed. Can I change my position now? I even said 

 

Thanks RR for saving my optimism on this idea!

I'm late to the party, but thought of you before you already came, drank all the beer, ate all the weenies and left with the hot chick.   

[Curled Finger]

2 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

It's nice to be recognized even if your preferred method of dissection is much different than mine. I wonder if your methods would help support my theory that whoever was the Knight f the Laughing tree involved skinchanging?

Getting back to the OP, I definitely think Bran buzzed Meera and she felt him trying to slip into her skin. Although I tend to think the "strange feelings" were sexual awakening.

Our friend @Unchained is certainly getting some steam behind his potentially sexual (see @Cridefea, I told you it was kinky!) actions at play here.   I've always interpreted the strange feeling as being out of body or disconnected.  Still I thank you very kindly for stopping in and showing your support.  

[ravenous reader]

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

I'm late to the party, but thought of you before you already came, drank all the beer, ate all the weenies and left with the hot chick.   

Really?  Who would that be now..?!

[Leo of House Cartel]

15 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

 However, it never once crossed my mind that the children may have attempted to lock the humans in Westeros with the Others.   You are diabolical.  

As a quick tinfoil aside, just for kicks, if Euron Greyjoy does indeed have some kind of Last Greenseer connection, he could, perhaps subconsciously, be attempting something similiar with the naval fleets of Westeros.

With the Iron Fleet in Mereen, royal fleet stolen and Stannis' armada beaten at Blackwater, Euron's possible destruction of The Redwyne fleet, and potential seige of Oldtown could leave southern Westeros with a shortage of ships, perhaps preventing many people from leaving the country by sea when Winter hits hard? Add in the theorised "raising of Kraken", aswell as Euron's apparent weather manipulation skills and we might have a recipe for seas as dangerous as the Wight infested land, meaning not many people will be able to sail to safety.

15 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

  What have I learned?  You can't trust anyone in this story.  Now I'm wondering if Bran will be able to hide in people.  If Varamyr tells true, Bran could potentially live a second life in another human body.    

Would you condone these actions it if he did?

Depending on who's body Bran took over, I probably would. There are many characters who have a lack of redeeming qualities, and don't seem to positively contribute to anything other than personal gain. Brandon Stark with a new body could have the potential to be a new Bran The Builder-type figure, traversing Westeros helping solve one problem of another. However I suppose he is already destined for a version of a Builder-esque fate, traveling the country through The Weirwood Net as opposed to on foot, helping life of all forms.

On the other hand if the Laws of Abomination are there for a reason, I wouldn't really want to see the lad going through some kind of shared-psyche soul reaving. He's been through so much mental trauma, and will probably go through more, so giving Bran a working body with working legs, only for his mind to be "broken" would be all too tragic.

[Curled Finger]

1 hour ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

As a quick tinfoil aside, just for kicks, if Euron Greyjoy does indeed have some kind of Last Greenseer connection, he could, perhaps subconsciously, be attempting something similiar with the naval fleets of Westeros.

With the Iron Fleet in Mereen, royal fleet stolen and Stannis' armada beaten at Blackwater, Euron's possible destruction of The Redwyne fleet, and potential seige of Oldtown could leave southern Westeros with a shortage of ships, perhaps preventing many people from leaving the country by sea when Winter hits hard? Add in the theorised "raising of Kraken", aswell as Euron's apparent weather manipulation skills and we might have a recipe for seas as dangerous as the Wight infested land, meaning not many people will be able to sail to safety.

Would you condone these actions it if he did?

Depending on who's body Bran took over, I probably would. There are many characters who have a lack of redeeming qualities, and don't seem to positively contribute to anything other than personal gain. Brandon Stark with a new body could have the potential to be a new Bran The Builder-type figure, traversing Westeros helping solve one problem of another. However I suppose he is already destined for a version of a Builder-esque fate, traveling the country through The Weirwood Net as opposed to on foot, helping life of all forms.

On the other hand if the Laws of Abomination are there for a reason, I wouldn't really want to see the lad going through some kind of shared-psyche soul reaving. He's been through so much mental trauma, and will probably go through more, so giving Bran a working body with working legs, only for his mind to be "broken" would be all too tragic.

You know, Brother, I think I have to know much more about all the consequences and motives for taking permanent residence in anyone.   I've stated more than once that I believe Hodor is Bran's vehicle, still Hodor, in a single word (Hodor!?...) and many actions , has managed to become a fan favorite.   When I'm able to step back and look at that outside the story I wonder if Martin really has written Hodor for this reason alone.  Still, I'm sure Bran's going to have to do an awful thing or 2.   He has to save the world after all.  Maybe condone is not the word.   I think I would go with accept as the lesser of evils overall.  This won't make losing Hodor any easier though.  Honestly, who else  would it be?   I'm with @aryagonnakill#2 in thinking/hoping the kids will leave the cave by subterranean tunnels.  It's possible we could get a break and meet some creature that is as formidable as Hodor yet not human.  But I doubt it.   I do expect Brandor to be the one with Lightbringer at the end, dying some horrible death.  <Heavy sigh>  Maybe Bran lives a 2nd life and maybe not.  How will you feel if the only way Bran can save the world when his body is broken, maybe thrown from a cliff--is to go into Hodor?  It's not pretty.  Getting Westeros saved will be a spiritually, physically, emotionally, psychically, mentally costly endeavor.  

So yes, there are Laws of Abomination.  Still, because Hodor is so uniquely suited to "carry" Bran and Bran has visited so often it's possible they may at some point become a shared-psyche soul.  Gads, Leo, I can almost see the whole Nissa Nissa scenario playing out with Bran as the sacrifice taking immediate shelter in Hodor.   Maybe to push some greater evil out or simply to save himself.   Maybe there is the smallest chance Martin will make the change some act for saving Hodor.   What say you? 

[Curled Finger]

6 hours ago, Cowboy Dan said:

Wonderful to hear there are receptive minds! Although to be fair I never intended to imply it was all that commonplace. Despite my moments of eloquence I can be rather inarticulate in getting my point across. It's mainly that I see it most obviously with Sam's chapters and that it can open up some interesting avenues that I haven't seen discussed by the fandom at large. I just wanted to expand the discussion on where these possibilities may be influencing arcs. That the possibility is being touched on by others tells me I had a good notion in the first place.

Of course! I do have an idea why that may be important but it's a bit out there and without some stronger support it's just an idea for now. I accept that I too may be wrong and am simply looking too far into our only combat with an Other. These over-analyses are prone to happen when we get years between books.. I've really enjoyed what I've seen of the discussion going on in here but my time has been short of late. Hopefully I'll be able to set aside some time soon.

Well Ser, you've started some interesting conversation that has managed to bleed over into other topics.   We all look forward to reading your thoughts on the exchange between Bran and Meera in the cave.