Curled Finger

Skin Changing and The Last Greenseer

91 posts in this topic

6 hours ago, Cowboy Dan said:

Wonderful to hear there are receptive minds! Although to be fair I never intended to imply it was all that commonplace. Despite my moments of eloquence I can be rather inarticulate in getting my point across. It's mainly that I see it most obviously with Sam's chapters and that it can open up some interesting avenues that I haven't seen discussed by the fandom at large. I just wanted to expand the discussion on where these possibilities may be influencing arcs. That the possibility is being touched on by others tells me I had a good notion in the first place.

Of course! I do have an idea why that may be important but it's a bit out there and without some stronger support it's just an idea for now. I accept that I too may be wrong and am simply looking too far into our only combat with an Other. These over-analyses are prone to happen when we get years between books.. I've really enjoyed what I've seen of the discussion going on in here but my time has been short of late. Hopefully I'll be able to set aside some time soon.

Well Ser, you've started some interesting conversation that has managed to bleed over into other topics.   We all look forward to reading your thoughts on the exchange between Bran and Meera in the cave.   

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11 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

Really?  Who would that be now..?!

Why Meera, of course! 

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3 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Why Meera, of course! 

:wideeyed:

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18 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

see @Cridefea, I told you it was kinky!

You should edit the title: "skin changing, the last greenseer and kinky stuff" :lol:

8 hours ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

On the other hand if the Laws of Abomination are there for a reason, I wouldn't really want to see the lad going through some kind of shared-psyche soul reaving. He's been through so much mental trauma, and will probably go through more, so giving Bran a working body with working legs, only for his mind to be "broken" would be all too tragic.

 

22 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

it's an encounter in which psyches are touched and made conscious to one another) as being held in the mutual embrace of the weirwood tree, which cradles them as a mother would a child...Ah...a 'mother'...Let's look for a maternal image: 'Bran wanted to hold her tight the way his mother used to hold him when he was hurt...'

I agree with both of you.

I wonder if Martin knew, when he chose the word skinchanging, about all the literature, theories etc around the metaphor of psychic "skin" and similar. 

You are empathic when you "feel" what someone else feels, not when you "are" someone else. Bran seems to be empathic with Meera, but probably he looses control. He has to learn how keeping a "right distance"

2 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

:wideeyed:

ahahahah

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Posted (edited)

43 minutes ago, Cridefea said:

You should edit the title: "skin changing, the last greenseer and kinky stuff" :lol:

 

I agree with both of you.

I wonder if Martin knew, when he chose the word skinchanging, about all the literature, theories etc around the metaphor of psychic "skin" and similar. 

You are empathic when you "feel" what someone else feels, not when you "are" someone else. Bran seems to be empathic with Meera, but probably he looses control. He has to learn how keeping a "right distance"

Good point.  However, empathy requires a certain mirroring of or identification with the other, in which someone who is overly 'gifted' in empathy (which might therefore also be a curse) might lose sight of interpersonal boundaries.  It's clever how GRRM literally plays with the idioms 'putting yourself in someone's shoes' and 'getting under someone's skin'!

I agree he loses control.  However, at base he's a very sensitive, kind, empathetic and affectionate boy.  You can see that play out here with his elder brother, when he reaches out in the dark to hold his hand -- again, in order to comfort someone who is crying (by now, I'm sure I don't need to clarify that this is a metaphor/foreshadowing for greenseeing/skinchanging).  My point is that Bran's natural instinct is different to someone like Euron's -- when Euron used to 'reach out for' one of his brothers or a girl who was crying, it was not with good intent.

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A Game of Thrones - Bran IV

"Yes," Robb said with such hope in his voice that Bran knew he was hearing his brother and not just Robb the Lord. "Mother will be home soon. Maybe we can ride out to meet her when she comes. Wouldn't that surprise her, to see you ahorse?" Even in the dark room, Bran could feel his brother's smile. "And afterward, we'll ride north to see the Wall. We won't even tell Jon we're coming, we'll just be there one day, you and me. It will be an adventure."

"An adventure," Bran repeated wistfully. He heard his brother sob. The room was so dark he could not see the tears on Robb's face, so he reached out and found his hand. Their fingers twined together.

I sincerely hope GRRM does not make the fatal error of messing up Bran's essentially kind character, by transforming him into some kind of cruel zombie automaton, or corrupted Euron-figure, whom Jon has to put out of his misery by killing him.  

By the way, people don't have to literally become one another or enter one another (there I go with inadvertent kinkiness, once again, tut tut...) in order for the relationship to be overly-enmeshed and dysfunctional -- e.g. the twins, with Jaime in particular (as the second-born and therefore subordinate 'twin B') losing his identity with Cersei, by functioning with her too much as one mind-- and body (when Bran caught the two of them en flagrante, he identified them as one beast with two backs and two faces (the person who really orchestrated his flight from the window was Cersei not Jaime; he was just the 'sword hand' which she wielded)...I'm telling you, 'kinky' is inevitable when you start talking about appropriate and inappropriate 'skin' boundaries... ;)

Edited by ravenous reader

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31 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Good point.  However, empathy requires a certain mirroring of or identification with the other, in which someone who is overly 'gifted' in empathy (which might therefore also be a curse) might lose sight of interpersonal boundaries.  It's clever how GRRM literally plays with the idioms 'putting yourself in someone's shoes' and 'getting under someone's skin'!

I agree he loses control.  However, at base he's a very sensitive, kind, empathetic and affectionate boy.  You can see that play out here with his elder brother, when he reaches out in the dark to hold his hand -- again, in order to comfort someone who is crying (by now, I'm sure I don't need to clarify that this is a metaphor/foreshadowing for greenseeing/skinchanging).  My point is that Bran's natural instinct is different to someone like Euron's -- when Euron used to 'reach out for' one of his brothers or a girl who was crying, it was not with good intent.

I sincerely hope GRRM does not make the fatal error of messing up Bran's essentially kind character, by transforming him into some kind of cruel zombie automaton, or corrupted Euron-figure, whom Jon has to put out of his misery by killing him.  

By the way, people don't have to literally become one another or enter one another (there I go with inadvertent kinkiness, once again, tut tut...) in order for the relationship to be overly-enmeshed and dysfunctional -- e.g. the twins, with Jaime in particular (as the second-born and therefore subordinate 'twin B') losing his identity with Cersei, by functioning with her too much as one mind-- and body (when Bran caught the two of them en flagrante, he identified them as one beast with two backs and two faces (the person who really orchestrated his flight from the window was Cersei not Jaime; he was just the 'sword hand' which she wielded)...I'm telling you, 'kinky' is inevitable when you start talking about appropriate and inappropriate 'skin' boundaries... ;)

I totally agree with everthing you're saying.

Bran is a good boy, he will never be like Euron. Yes, empathy requires mirroring, but it's a matter of quantity, if there are no boundaries at all, you risk to loose yourself and to push people away from you. It's like when he is in Summer's skin and he has to come back and be bran to live. 

and it's true, you're right about Jaime and Cersei. The difference it's about perception: Cersei feels whole with Jaime, she exists but she needs Jaime to feel complete. She is so narcisistic that Jaime is only an appendage for her. But in skinchanging if you don't have boundaries, you don't exist, you feel disintegrate, you are the other one person (if the other one is strong enough to bear it and keep existing).

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(the person who really orchestrated his flight from the window was Cersei not Jaime; he was just the 'sword hand' which she wielded)

yes and in a very sublte way.

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I'm telling you, 'kinky' is inevitable when you start talking about appropriate and inappropriate 'skin' boundaries... 

absolutely :lol:

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2 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

I sincerely hope GRRM does not make the fatal error of messing up Bran's essentially kind character, by transforming him into some kind of cruel zombie automaton, or corrupted Euron-figure, whom Jon has to put out of his misery by killing him.  

 

1 hour ago, Cridefea said:

Bran is a good boy, he will never be like Euron. Yes, empathy requires mirroring, but it's a matter of quantity, if there are no boundaries at all, you risk to loose yourself and to push people away from you. It's like when he is in Summer's skin and he has to come back and be bran to live. 

But in skinchanging if you don't have boundaries, you don't exist, you feel disintegrate, you are the other one person (if the other one is strong enough to bear it and keep existing).

It's no secret that I am a fan Euron having similar gifts as Bran.  I think I decided once that Euron may be a blue seer for lack of a better term--sort of the inverse of Bran.   Still there is little doubt in my mind that Bran and Hodor will mind meld completely at some point.   I'm looking for hints as to Bran's future in Euron's actions.   The weirwood paste seems to have been a turning point.  Most of us understand that Euron is a collector of very special people and what he seems to do with them.   These actions seem to be necessary to Euron's ultimate job, purpose or something.  Taken as inverse actions to what may be required of Bran, I see some very very hard decisions in front of our sweet little boy.  Or many others making hard decisions on behalf of Bran's ultimate job, purpose or something. Perhaps our Euron specialist @DarkSister1001 may have something to say about this.   

Hodor appears to be a required "part" of Bran or vice versa.   It is their "teaming up" that saves the group at least twice now.  I've read your definitions of empath with a great deal of interest and wonder what the word for a person who is incapable of acting in a situation without the "vehicle of another" is.   The more I think about it, Bran makes some very knightly moves during his fighting scenes in Hodor. Awfully skillful for 2 boys with no real training at arms.   Is there anyway to determine what Hodor feels during these actions? Does their combining of forces or body/mind collective make a 3rd complete personality?   

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On 3/7/2017 at 5:46 PM, kissdbyfire said:

That's a great OP, @Curled Finger! When you brought up the topic (Bran into Meera) elsewhere and we talked about you starting a thread for it, I thought about this scene... The possibility of Bran having skinchanged into Meera had never crossed my mind, but when you said the words, that's the scene that popped up in my head. Very interesting, and now, with the benefit of you laying it all out and hindsight, I'd say it's very likely indeed that that's what happened there. 

I now feel I must reread Bran's ASoS and ADwD chapters asap. :eek:

all I can say is yes, yes, yes! :P (But I'm not sure I can post it here... even in secret eye mode)

 

Alright, I finally got a quiet moment to read your post from TWOW subforum topic.   Verrrrrrrrrry interesting.  I think we can openly discuss the premise without quoting anything from the gift chapters.  For those who haven't read the post (maybe @kissdbyfire can post a link?) there are many instances of our broken and battered Theon referred to as a dog.  Theon is presented as little more than some beaten creature to us throughout ADWD.  In essence Theon is mentally and emotionally broken to the point of taking on this pitiful persona.  In his brokenness Theon's thought processes aren't perhaps as complete and lucid as they previously were thereby making Theon a pretty darned good candidate for hosting Bran.   I think if Bran can command Hodor in thought he could do absolutely the same for Theon who is already open to the old gods speaking to him.   Ha, great example of bicameral mind if you ask me!   

Before I forget on the subject off the subject.  Theon was the 3rd companion I decided on to bear a sword north for the cause.  Martin went to some length to describe Theon beheading the Iron Born captain at Moat Cailin, flayed fingers and all.  Theon can still wield a longsword.  

My nutshell explanation is no doubt flawed and I would love for you to jump in and set it straight.  Your idea really opens up alternate scenarios for Bran's invasions and intent.  I think most of us assume Bran was the tree who spoke Theon's name and though your TWOW stuff is exciting, I think you can make an excellent case with the information in ADWD.  My premise here is that Bran can and will reach into minds or at least provoke a mind or 2.  Bring it, Sister, this is good stuff. 

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Posted (edited)

17 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Well Ser, you've started some interesting conversation that has managed to bleed over into other topics.   We all look forward to reading your thoughts on the exchange between Bran and Meera in the cave.   

Well there's an invitation I won't refuse! I can't say I have a whole lot to say (of course this comment wound up being so very wrong) but re-reading this chapter is very interesting. Like wow, I can't believe how much is going on that I missed even in my second reading. Just.. holy crap! I finally nailed a couple ideas I've had knocking around but couldn't find direct examples for. So thanks for starting this thread and thanks @Unchained for tagging me, I wouldn't have made these connections for a long time to come otherwise.

I've discussed before over in Heresy how I see the fractal symbolism going on and that kind of pastiched mash-up of overlapping conflicts between chapters influences my analysis. Due to this it's hard to really get into why I see things the way I do without going on a serious digression and showing a bunch of tangential chapter's analyses. That and the fact every time I feel like I have an understanding on the thing it seems to shift and change before my (mind's) eyes. It's like I'm walking up a stair and once I travel enough steps I can see where it's going. I reach the top platform where there are two more stairs, left and right, one up, one down and in front of me is nothing but air. But if I step forward I'll find in some weird Escher-esque way I am upside down on the same platform and I can descend the way I just came but I appear to be ascending all over again, walking forward now in the direction that was just behind. Oh and the two stairs to my right and left are replaced in its inverted state. One is now a dead end and the other leads to some darkened hall I've yet to illuminate. So right when I feel I've started to really get a hold on how this stuff connects I realize the bedrock I thought was below me was nothing more than shifting sands. It's both endlessly fascinating and frustrating.

Similar to how RR honed in on Bran when he 'reaches' for Meera I want to hone in on how Meera 'bolted' from the fire. Which ties into LmL's whole fire of the gods and lightning/thunderbolt motifs which he likes to illuminate. Before I go into that though I want to backtrack a little in the chapter to BR's exposition on skinchanging for some quick set up.

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"A wild stallion will buck and kick when a man tries to mount him, and try to bite the hand that slips the bit between his teeth," Lord Brynden said, "but a horse that has known one rider will accept another..." -Bran III, ADWD

Interestingly "wild stallion" is only used once in the text otherwise, which is Daenerys eating the horse heart back in AGOT. This mimics BR's statement that 'the trees remember but men forget' (paraphrasing). Just as the maesters mock the old knowledge of raven speech through written messages, the Dothraki crone (one-eyed as BR is) administers the same blood rite BR does to Bran but in a half-forgotten manner. The symbols are there but not the specific truths that men have forgotten. Think about it: she is wedded by eating a bloody heart, then when the khal dies the khaleesi is meant to return to the Dosh Khaleen just as the greenseers 'go into the wood' after they die, which is being 'wedded to the (heart) trees' by eating a bloody paste.

A tree could be seen as a horned lord symbol, its antlers reaching into the sky but (in an inverted manner I'm sure @Feather Crystal will enjoy), its roots are likewise antlers that reach unseen into the earth. Another forgotten truth for the Dothraki in their horse worship: horses simply have hooves that trod over the ground and fail to pierce the earth its self as weirwood and ebony trees do. The branches that reach into the sky produce leaves, giving off their gift to others, while the branches below suck the nutrients from the soil. Kind of like inverted lightbringer swords, eh, @LmL, one drinking light, while the other produces it?

 

Okay, that thought got away from me. It happens. So back to the bolting. In this scene, if we're building on the assumption that Bran is in fact attempting to skinchange Meera, Meera is acting as an unbridled horse herself. Bran and Meera begin their chat by ruminating on Jojen's depressive acceptance of his fate.

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"He's being brave," said Bran. The only time a man can be brave is when he is afraid, his father had told him once, long ago, on the day they found the direwolf pups in the summer snows. He still remembered. -Bran III, ADWD

Let's go all the way back to those first pages of the series in which Ned imparts this wonderful wisdom and we get the first use of 'bolt', shall we?

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His father took off the man's head with a single sure stroke. Blood sprayed out across the snow, as red as summerwine. One of the horses reared and had to be restrained to keep from bolting. Bran could not take his eyes off the blood. The snows around the stump drank it eagerly, reddening as he watched. -Bran I, AGOT

Not only is a bridled horse wanting to bolt but it is restrained, just as I mentioned Meera (in her unbridled state), has free rein of her actions and Bran thus fails to restrain her. The blood is being drunk as wine and if Euron is the counterpart to Bran, who drinks Shade of the Evening, which is a nice blue wine (de-oxygenated blood?). The next few uses of bolt are also interesting in light of the point that she was running to prevent from being seen crying. Both actually make perfect sense.

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"I must be excused," he said with the last of his dignity. He whirled and bolted before they could see him cry. He must have drunk more wine than he had realized. -Jon I, AGOT

Interestingly Jon is drunk and "half-blind", just as Euron and Bran must be to unlock their powers, drunk on (blood) wine, they must close the lower half of their eyes to see with the upper eye.

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Arya felt tears filling her eyes. She pushed herself out of her chair and bolted for the door. -Arya I, AGOT

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"I don't know," she said tearfully, looking as though she wanted to bolt. "I don't remember. Everything happened so fast, I didn't see …" -Eddard III, AGOT

 

This is a great example of how GRRM obfuscates meaning -- as I see it. If you can find the ley lines you can then recognize the second meaning is there all the same, hidden among the paralleled events, nestled in the same cluster of symbolism. Its absence often serves to tell part of the story but you first need to find those ley lines and see the similar patternings as they crop up to recognize that an absence in the scene is even occurring. Which is no easy task and why my own research has been so slow going, due to that constant Escher-esque re-assessment I mentioned. Of course GRRM's talent at hiding his intent with key words/phrases makes following such trails a tricky business.

(To wit: Remember that whole business about the Baratheon brothers being different metals and how Robert is the "true steel"? Kind of nails Schmendrick's R+L=Lightbringer hypothesis that lightbringer can be a person and not just a sword. Despite 7 uses in AGOT that phrase gets completely -- and very suspiciously -- dropped. I'm guessing GRRM felt it was a little too on the nose, even though true names and true faces stick around.)

 

Looking around there's a few times I see bolts or lightning described along with "clawing" (the very first use of claw actually describes Bran's hands in his coma state). That's essentially what Bran would do if he were to 'pull himself along the ground with his hands,' in order to physically touch Meera, he must claw at the ground, but she bolts away first.

I don't want to overdo this because I could follow these lines for a while and there's a couple other key phrases that hook in to some places I'm finding very fascinating. Although explaining why that is would require a lot more explanation and I don't want to derail this thread with my tangential musings. Hope you enjoyed reading my thoughts, @Curled Finger, it wound up being a bit more than originally intended, haha.

Edited by Cowboy Dan

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5 hours ago, Cowboy Dan said:

Well there's an invitation I won't refuse! I can't say I have a whole lot to say (of course this comment wound up being so very wrong) but re-reading this chapter is very interesting. Like wow, I can't believe how much is going on that I missed even in my second reading. Just.. holy crap! I finally nailed a couple ideas I've had knocking around but couldn't find direct examples for. So thanks for starting this thread and thanks @Unchained for tagging me, I wouldn't have made these connections for a long time to come otherwise.

Enlightening about Martin's uses for bolt.  Let's see what have we managed to pull together here?  Reaching, intent, feelings associated with skinchanging, empathy and bolting.  Of course I've never been one to have the patience for cross checking uses of words in the massive story.   Not true--I did once go through all the uses of "melt" but that when I was convinced the Jogos Nhai were Others.   Funny what a single turn of phrase can do to a reader.   I thank you very much for defining "bolt" in relation to our little paragraph as well as the other words and terms you shared.   It was very interesting accompanying you up and down the stairs Ser.   

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2 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Enlightening about Martin's uses for bolt.  Let's see what have we managed to pull together here?  Reaching, intent, feelings associated with skinchanging, empathy and bolting.  Of course I've never been one to have the patience for cross checking uses of words in the massive story.   Not true--I did once go through all the uses of "melt" but that when I was convinced the Jogos Nhai were Others.   Funny what a single turn of phrase can do to a reader.   I thank you very much for defining "bolt" in relation to our little paragraph as well as the other words and terms you shared.   It was very interesting accompanying you up and down the stairs Ser.   

Haha I've been there, it's a big reason why I try not to over-use this type of analysis but to find linked conflicts/events (like how Ned's wisdom links the blood drinking tree and a bolting horse, four books apart). Although I tend to stick to words that have 50-65 hits or less (and 5-25 is far more preferable), bolt is at ~100 and that gets too out of hand to read all the time (melt is at 168). I fully expect skepticism and, even from more symbolically-minded posters, the disbelieving side-eye. To be fair in hundreds (and hundreds) of searches I've identified maybe 2-3 dozen words/phrases linked in obvious ways.

If you're familiar with Meyers-Briggs typology the INTP (logician) archetype is what I am and pretty sure what GRRM is. TFL's sig quote about how if GRRM knows exactly how the story will end then it makes him lose interest? That's classic INTP behavior. Primarily introverted thinkers with a bent for complex systems, but once the system is understood, the type gets bored in the tedium of application. I see this system at work and when I show it like this I expect some people just see white noise.

At least it's coming off as interesting! I'm glad that, at the very least, I can liven up the boredom of our long wait. Perhaps in certain eyes I'm some drunk fool hopping around but if you find my dancing amusing then I consider my goal accomplished ;) 

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Posted (edited)

On 09/03/2017 at 3:04 PM, Curled Finger said:

  Maybe Bran lives a 2nd life and maybe not.  How will you feel if the only way Bran can save the world when his body is broken, maybe thrown from a cliff--is to go into Hodor?  

I could certainly see Bran's arc playing out such a manner. It would give both Bran and Hodor the chance to do certain things neither would have been able to before, and if Bran still dreams of becoming a Knight then a large, physically powerful host like Hodor would certainly be a good choice. "Giant's Blood" and chivalry would be a tremendous combo. While we don't have much in the way of a description of Hodor's inner thought process, would it be to much to imagine the big stableboy himself has dreams? Perhaps he dreams of knighthood, or sex, or even traveling to Essos and warmer lands. If a part of Hodor still existed deep his mind once Bran had taken over, he may have a better chance at a "good life" than he currently would.  The sad thing is both Bran and Hodor may grow to be happier through a permanent bond, then again it's too hard to predict the ramifications of abomination.

It would be cool to see Bran, in Hodors body, trying to do his Parkour thing.

Edited by Leo of House Cartel
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3 hours ago, Cowboy Dan said:

Haha I've been there, it's a big reason why I try not to over-use this type of analysis but to find linked conflicts/events (like how Ned's wisdom links the blood drinking tree and a bolting horse, four books apart). Although I tend to stick to words that have 50-65 hits or less (and 5-25 is far more preferable), bolt is at ~100 and that gets too out of hand to read all the time (melt is at 168). I fully expect skepticism and, even from more symbolically-minded posters, the disbelieving side-eye. To be fair in hundreds (and hundreds) of searches I've identified maybe 2-3 dozen words/phrases linked in obvious ways.

If you're familiar with Meyers-Briggs typology the INTP (logician) archetype is what I am and pretty sure what GRRM is. TFL's sig quote about how if GRRM knows exactly how the story will end then it makes him lose interest? That's classic INTP behavior. Primarily introverted thinkers with a bent for complex systems, but once the system is understood, the type gets bored in the tedium of application. I see this system at work and when I show it like this I expect some people just see white noise.

At least it's coming off as interesting! I'm glad that, at the very least, I can liven up the boredom of our long wait. Perhaps in certain eyes I'm some drunk fool hopping around but if you find my dancing amusing then I consider my goal accomplished ;) 

Liven accomplished.  You dance a fascinating jig, Ser. 

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1 hour ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

I could certainly see Bran's arc playing out such a manner. It would give both Bran and Hodor the chance to do certain things neither would have been able to before, and if Bran still dreams of becoming a Knight then a large, physically powerful host like Hodor would certainly be a good choice. "Giant's Blood" and chivalry would be a tremendous combo. While we don't have much in the way of a description of Hodor's inner thought process, would it be to much to imagine the big stableboy himself has dreams? Perhaps he dreams of knighthood, or sex, or even traveling to Essos and warmer lands. If a part of Hodor still existed deep his mind once Bran had taken over, he may have a better chance at a "good life" than he currently would.  The sad thing is both Bran and Hodor may grow to be happier through a permanent bond, then again it's too hard to predict the ramifications of abomination.

It would be cool to see Bran, in Hodors body, trying to do his Parkour thing.

Why wouldn't Hodor dream?  He can think, he just can't express himself exponentially.  He exhibits many character traits and interacts in conversation.  I'm sure he's got memories and hopes as well.  He's a lovely character.  I think he would essentially take on Bran's personality which would cause Hodor to be lost to us.  It would be a loss.  The only thing I'm not sure about is the ability of this man boy to say anything other than Hodor.  Sounds like a mental hiccup and despite Bran's dominant consciousness, it would still be Hodor's brain, right?  Hard to say how it would go but it looks like a good thing.   

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2 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Why wouldn't Hodor dream?  He can think, he just can't express himself exponentially.  He exhibits many character traits and interacts in conversation.  I'm sure he's got memories and hopes as well.  He's a lovely character.  I think he would essentially take on Bran's personality which would cause Hodor to be lost to us.  It would be a loss.  The only thing I'm not sure about is the ability of this man boy to say anything other than Hodor.  Sounds like a mental hiccup and despite Bran's dominant consciousness, it would still be Hodor's brain, right?  Hard to say how it would go but it looks like a good thing.   

On 09/03/2017 at 3:04 PM, Curled Finger said:

It does sound like a mental hiccup, and if Bran's abilities to mentally link with the world around him prove to be as profound as expected, I would be interested to see if The Next Greenseer could repair this hiccup. If skinchanging one's own kind can cause some form of madness, I wonder if it could also be grounds for healing a fractured mind.

 

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Posted (edited)

Aw, thank you for the kind words, @Curled Finger:blush:

I've checked with a mod, and it's all good - didn't want to risk causing the thread to be locked b/c the discussion here is too interesting! 

So, I'll use the secret eye, and will also leave a warning: the hidden link below contains spoilers from TWoW Theon I, click at your own peril! :wideeyed:

Spoiler

 

 

Edited by kissdbyfire

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On 3/10/2017 at 5:48 PM, kissdbyfire said:

Aw, thank you for the kind words, @Curled Finger:blush:

I've checked with a mod, and it's all good - didn't want to risk causing the thread to be locked b/c the discussion here is too interesting! 

So, I'll use the secret eye, and will also leave a warning: the hidden link below contains spoilers from TWoW Theon I, click at your own peril! :wideeyed:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

Thank you Lady.   This is a good read in the context of this conversation.  

It appears to me that Bran has lots of options in front of him.  

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On 3/7/2017 at 8:05 AM, Leo of House Cartel said:

...It's cool to think that Lord Rivers could be being held captive in that cave. Perhaps The Singers are puppeteering the puppet master for their own nefarious gains?

Wouldn't be the first time those little turds did something nefarious.

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On 3/7/2017 at 9:11 AM, Curled Finger said:

I'm not sure about Sansa.   Seems to me if Bran is as powerful as I suspect, he should be able to communicate with anyone.   The big block on this avenue of reason is that Bloodraven hasn't said a word about Dany.   Is it possible he actually doesn't know about her? Then there is the distance thing.   Is there a limit to how far a greenseer's net of intel can reach?  Arya is pretty far away so that gives me hope that Bran's abilities are far reaching.   

Sansa told Ned she had a dream about Bran smiling.   She later has a dream about Lady (after Lady is killed).   I've done a little research into the Lady dream and haven't been able to convince myself it's more than a regular dream.   Still Sansa is a Stark and is by blood magical.  It's entirely possible the wolves are the key to unlocking their power and Sansa may only have a tiny bit of power because of the short time with Lady.   In short, I think it could go either way with Bran "touching" Sansa.   

This ability to reach people in dreams is causing me to reexamine all the dreams in story.  Is it possible Bran can reach say Tyrion and Cersei in their bizarre dreams?   

He knows about Dany-Bran is able to see Asshai, so Lord Rivers can see Dany.  If he's been watching Bran since the day he was born, why would he not have been able to see Aemon (who knew about Dany & the Dragons), Ned, Jon, Aerys, Rhaegar...see the whole timeline or at least know of it through that dopey crow of Jeor's. 

That he doesn't seem to dwell on Dany, to me, is symbolic of her rank on his list of most important people.  She's not numero uno. Since we know that Bloodraven holds his Targaryan loyalty above even his own honor, Dany should be on his mind...but that it's not in the text is telling. Then again, Bryden doesn't have a POV. 

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Skinchanging is an abomination.  It's a form of slavery that takes freedom from the victim.  Bran doesn't need to warg to study the past.  I don't want to see Bran warg a dragon. 

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