Good Guy Garlan Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 I'm talking about Jorah going back to Dany with Tyrion. I mean, 1) she threatened to kill him if he ever returned, 2) even if by an act of mercy she spares his life (again) he's severe unlikely to be welcomed back into her inner circle, 3) Tyrion is probably the least useful hostage she could have and it would've mattered very little in the grand scheme of things, 4) he's one of the luckiest characters in the series by a) getting out of Slaver's Bay with his life and b ) running into Tyrion, the world's most wanted dwarf and his surest way back home with a pardon So why would he ever choose to go back to the dragon's maw instead of counting his lucky stars? I get GRRM is trying to sell as an excuse that he's ~ crazy in luv ~ and is not thinking straight or whatever, but I'm not buying. This isn't some romantic schoolboy with a crush, he's a grizzled, wordly man who should know better. Like, Dany isn't even into him! Catch a hint, Mormont! The way I see it GRRM needed a way to get Tyrion to Meereen to complete the Meereenese Knot or whatever, and he threw Jorah's characterization out the window for the sake of the plot. Gone is the street-wise character from aGoT and in his place there's an irrational fool that makes irrational decisions. And no, this isn't "character development", IMHO. This is acting out of character. Am I alone in this? *crickets* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aryagonnakill#2 Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 IDK, I feel like in universe it's a type of grand gesture that people try. The guy can't go back to westeros without someone forgiving him, and that means killing Dany or serving her, and he really wants to go home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Good Guy Garlan Posted March 7, 2017 Author Share Posted March 7, 2017 10 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said: IDK, I feel like in universe it's a type of grand gesture that people try. The guy can't go back to westeros without someone forgiving him, and that means killing Dany or serving her, and he really wants to go home. He could've delivered Tyrion's head on a platter to someone who would appreciate the nice gesture, like Cersei. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aryagonnakill#2 Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 17 minutes ago, Good Guy Garlan said: He could've delivered Tyrion's head on a platter to someone who would appreciate the nice gesture, like Cersei. Yes but when you combine his situation with his love of Dany he is left with only the 1 option. I feel like it's his love for her you didn't include in the OP because it can't be explained logically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curled Finger Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 I think for the most part this kidnapping of Tyrion was a spur of the moment thing and not a thing Jorah would normally have undertaken. This is out of character and poorly devised. But he was drunk and had a Dany substitute in his lap at the time. It's a better read all the way around from Tyrion's POV and the lengths he goes to in order to stay with his captor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Good Guy Garlan Posted March 7, 2017 Author Share Posted March 7, 2017 27 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said: Yes but when you combine his situation with his love of Dany he is left with only the 1 option. I feel like it's his love for her you didn't include in the OP because it can't be explained logically. Yeah, but the "love" argument is an easy way out, IMO. Like, for example, GRRM took his time to set up the chain of events that led to Robb having sex with Jeyne Westerling. He could've easily could've waved his hands and said, "It was love! Love is the one thing we're capable of perceiving that transcends dimensions of time and space!" But he didn't because that's cheap. Like how the show did it with Talisa. 20 minutes ago, Curled Finger said: I think for the most part this kidnapping of Tyrion was a spur of the moment thing and not a thing Jorah would normally have undertaken. This is out of character and poorly devised. But he was drunk and had a Dany substitute in his lap at the time. It's a better read all the way around from Tyrion's POV and the lengths he goes to in order to stay with his captor. He should've changed his mind when he woke up the next morning with a killer hangover and an annoying dwarf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acwill07 Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 3 minutes ago, Good Guy Garlan said: Yeah, but the "love" argument is an easy way out, IMO. Like, for example, GRRM took his time to set up the chain of events that led to Robb having sex with Jeyne Westerling. He could've easily could've waved his hands and said, "It was love! Love is the one thing we're capable of perceiving that transcends dimensions of time and space!" But he didn't because that's cheap. Like how the show did it with Talisa. He should've changed his mind when he woke up the next morning with a killer hangover and an annoying dwarf. It's not just that Jorah loves her, it's that he's completely devoted to her as his queen. He certainly loves her in a romantic way, but he also stopped spying when he realized that she really was the rightful queen of Westeros. Seeing her dragons hatch changed him in a big way and his devotion to her is what keeps leading him back. Really, of all the shit that happens in ADWD, I'm surprised that anyone would find this the hardest to understand. This is pretty simple IMO. Anyways, where else is he gonna go? He's not sure he has a pardon anymore, he's not allowed at Bear Island, and everything and everyone he ever loved (save for the girls of Bear Island that still live) is gone. The only place he has in the world at this point is by Dany's side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curled Finger Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 3 minutes ago, Good Guy Garlan said: Yeah, but the "love" argument is an easy way out, IMO. Like, for example, GRRM took his time to set up the chain of events that led to Robb having sex with Jeyne Westerling. He could've easily could've waved his hands and said, "It was love! Love is the one thing we're capable of perceiving that transcends dimensions of time and space!" But he didn't because that's cheap. Like how the show did it with Talisa. He should've changed his mind when he woke up the next morning with a killer hangover and an annoying dwarf. You disappoint me. I would have bet lunch you would have had Jorah just work on getting more drunk, staying with the pretty whore and forgetting about Tyrion entirely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mat92 Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 Jorah isn't really that up to date with the political situation in Westeros outside of the fact that the Lannisters hold the throne. When a Lannister shows up in front of him, he doesn't stop to ask questions, he grabs him before anyone else can recognise him and use him for their benefits. Being drunk and obviously emotional over Dany is a pretty logical explanation of why he is so hasty to do something to win back her affections. I get the sense that after Tyrion tells him that he's on the run, Jorah's plan switches from using him as a hostage to using him and his knowledge against Dany's enemies. At least, I imagine that's what Jorah's plans were going to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Good Guy Garlan Posted March 7, 2017 Author Share Posted March 7, 2017 12 minutes ago, acwill07 said: It's not just that Jorah loves her, it's that he's completely devoted to her as his queen. He certainly loves her in a romantic way, but he also stopped spying when he realized that she really was the rightful queen of Westeros. Seeing her dragons hatch changed him in a big way and his devotion to her is what keeps leading him back. Really, of all the shit that happens in ADWD, I'm surprised that anyone would find this the hardest to understand. This is pretty simple IMO. Anyways, where else is he gonna go? He's not sure he has a pardon anymore, he's not allowed at Bear Island, and everything and everyone he ever loved (save for the girls of Bear Island that still live) is gone. The only place he has in the world at this point is by Dany's side. I don't find this hard to understand, I find it corny and hackneyed. And no, he doesn't have a place at Dany's side anymore because she kicked his lying ass to the curb and threatened to kill him. And I guess his irrational thinking of "I'm gonna bring Dany a beautiful dwarf bouquet and everything will be forgiven and she's gonna marry me and we'll have 3 dragonbear kids named Jorah Jr, Jorah the Explorer and Jorah Menorah, who's gonna be Jewish" is somewhat intentional but it is so...cheap. I'll eat my eat if Jorah doesn't turn out to be a plot device to get Tyrion to Meereen. 21 minutes ago, Curled Finger said: You disappoint me. I would have bet lunch you would have had Jorah just work on getting more drunk, staying with the pretty whore and forgetting about Tyrion entirely. I mean, that's what I'd do, for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mat92 Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 2 minutes ago, Good Guy Garlan said: I don't find this hard to understand, I find it corny and hackneyed. And no, he doesn't have a place at Dany's side anymore because she kicked his lying ass to the curb and threatened to kill him. And I guess his irrational thinking of "I'm gonna bring Dany a beautiful dwarf bouquet and everything will be forgiven and she's gonna marry me and we'll have 3 dragonbear kids named Jorah Jr, Jorah the Explorer and Jorah Menorah, who's gonna be Jewish" is somewhat intentional but it is so...cheap. Oh I see what you mean. Well, I think it really speaks to his desperation at that moment. His whole life has been about pleasing women that he loves. Linesse (I think her name was?) ruined him because he spent all his money trying to make her happy. He then resulted to selling slavers (which was a crime under Ned's authority) to keep making her happy. Eventually he meets Dany and falls in love: he becomes especially devoted and infatuated after seeing her walk away from the pyre when her dragons hatch. I think it's in character that he reacts quite irrationally when it comes to trying to win Dany back - none of his past actions have been all that logical on this account. That being said, he still functions as a plot device to get Tyrion there - there's not really anyone else in that area (outside of new characters). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Good Guy Garlan Posted March 7, 2017 Author Share Posted March 7, 2017 11 minutes ago, Mat92 said: Oh I see what you mean. Well, I think it really speaks to his desperation at that moment. His whole life has been about pleasing women that he loves. Linesse (I think her name was?) ruined him because he spent all his money trying to make her happy. He then resulted to selling slavers (which was a crime under Ned's authority) to keep making her happy. Eventually he meets Dany and falls in love: he becomes especially devoted and infatuated after seeing her walk away from the pyre when her dragons hatch. I think it's in character that he reacts quite irrationally when it comes to trying to win Dany back - none of his past actions have been all that logical on this account. That being said, he still functions as a plot device to get Tyrion there - there's not really anyone else in that area (outside of new characters). I don't know, maybe, but it still seems hella convenient. Especially the Tyrion part. I don't have any problem believing he'd be going back to Meereen eventually, but his thinking that Tyrion's gonna make a big difference is just lame. I guess we can dismiss this as him being desperate but it still seems off to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMC Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 I think the problem you're having is thinking Mormont's motivation is "twue wuv" or even devotion, when it's actually obsession. He's not in love with her - that requires respect, whereas (as Dany herself points out) he spends two books solely trying to shield her from trusting anyone but himself and can't even show a modicum of compunction when Dany confronts him with the fact he spied on her. Jorah's that obsessed creepy guy who thinks the prom queen should be in love with him, made altogether more creepy by the age difference. So, when he's presented with the opportunity of delivering Tyrion's head to Dany, he thinks doing so should make Dany forgive him - even if he knows deep down this is pathetically delusional, which is why he punches Tyrion in the face when he points that out. He can't bring himself to admit that his "gift for the family" is only going to be a dead bird in a dog's mouth to Dany. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lollygag Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 On my first read, I thought "there's a bad RomCom in here somewhere". Jorah's motives are believable to me, but only in said RomCom or a half-assed romance novel (which I do enjoy on occasion). Love in itself with no other context to flesh it out will only feel thin and watery to me in this series. When you compare Jorah/Dany to Cat/Ned, Jaime/Brienne, etc., it just feels even more unsubstantial than it already is. Running into Tyrion was unbelievable. You can live a small town for years and not run into someone, but traveling across a whole continent and running into them? I would've rather read about Jorah and Tyrion encountering a plot against Dany. It would have given Jorah a stronger motive to return to Dany, given Tyrion more interesting things to think about, and it could have fleshed out Essos politics into something more interesting while giving their travels more of a mission feel, rather than a travelogue feel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord of Raventree Hall Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 I think it is within his characterization! He basically spent all of his money for Lynesse Hightower. Basically every stupid thing he does is for te sake of a woman. Really read up on what he did for Lynesse again, because this is absolutely a part of his character. And if you think smart men don't take a hint, ask any woman, they will tell you this is absolutely not true. I had friends who had otherwise normal seeming men message then well beyond the reasonable time limit for 'having a chance' despite my friends repeatedly telling them they were completely uninterested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisdaw Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 He more than amply laid the groundwork for Jorah being a desperate romantic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 It makes sense because Jorah isn't the sharpest knife in the box. And if you remember the anguish and desperation he felt when he learned Dany had married Hizdahr it is pretty clear what he was about. If you want to criticize this whole story then you should go with the huge accident that Jorah and Tyrion would frequent the same brothel at the same time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curled Finger Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 8 hours ago, Good Guy Garlan said: I mean, that's what I'd do, for sure. That's better. My faith in you is completely restored. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeMama Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 Jorah is 'friendzoned' AF. It ain't even funny. Might as well join the Silent Sisters, because he's looking at a lifetime of celibacy unless he gives up his juvenile crush on Dany. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Praetor Xyn Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 If you learn about GRRM's life, you'll see why. His life is full of unrequited love and love triangles, where someone left him for another man. That's why there are so many of them in our story. The women always break the heart, never the men, because GRRM wasn't the heart breaker, he was the heart broken. That's why we have Tyrion X Shae, Jorah X Daenerys, Littlefinger X Catelyn, Ned X Ashara (if she left him for Brandon), Robert X Lyanna, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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