Anyone else thinks this bit of aDwD makes no sense?

[The Mountain That Flies]

11 hours ago, dmc515 said:

I think the problem you're having is thinking Mormont's motivation is "twue wuv" or even devotion, when it's actually obsession.  He's not in love with her - that requires respect, whereas (as Dany herself points out) he spends two books solely trying to shield her from trusting anyone but himself and can't even show a modicum of compunction when Dany confronts him with the fact he spied on her.  Jorah's that obsessed creepy guy who thinks the prom queen should be in love with him, made altogether more creepy by the age difference.

So, when he's presented with the opportunity of delivering Tyrion's head to Dany, he thinks doing so should make Dany forgive him - even if he knows deep down this is pathetically delusional, which is why he punches Tyrion in the face when he points that out.  He can't bring himself to admit that his "gift for the family" is only going to be a dead bird in a dog's mouth to Dany.

This is the main thing people need to keep in mind. Jorah is delisonally obsessive when it comes to Dany, and it affects his decision-making. This forsnmy mean I don't have some sympathy for the guy, but he's spent his entire life behaving like this and it's led from one series of dumb choices after another.

[Chris Mormont]

13 hours ago, acwill07 said:

It's not just that Jorah loves her, it's that he's completely devoted to her as his queen.  He certainly loves her in a romantic way, but he also stopped spying when he realized that she really was the rightful queen of Westeros.  Seeing her dragons hatch changed him in a big way and his devotion to her is what keeps leading him back.  Really, of all the shit that happens in ADWD, I'm surprised that anyone would find this the hardest to understand.  This is pretty simple IMO.

Anyways, where else is he gonna go?  He's not sure he has a pardon anymore, he's not allowed at Bear Island, and everything and everyone he ever loved (save for the girls of Bear Island that still live) is gone.  The only place he has in the world at this point is by Dany's side.

I agree with these sentiments. 

What is he going back to? The North is at War, his family has disowned him, and his honor twice tainted.  His only choice is regain his honor with Dany.

[Red Man Racey]

12 hours ago, Lollygag said:

On my first read, I thought "there's a bad RomCom in here somewhere". Jorah's motives are believable to me, but only in said RomCom or a half-assed romance novel (which I do enjoy on occasion). Love in itself with no other context to flesh it out will only feel thin and watery to me in this series. When you compare Jorah/Dany to Cat/Ned, Jaime/Brienne, etc., it just feels even more unsubstantial than it already is.

Running into Tyrion was unbelievable. You can live a small town for years and not run into someone, but traveling across a whole continent and running into them? 

I would've rather read about Jorah and Tyrion encountering a plot against Dany. It would have given Jorah a stronger motive to return to Dany, given Tyrion more interesting things to think about, and it could have fleshed out Essos politics into something more interesting while giving their travels more of a mission feel, rather than a travelogue feel.

 

Honestly, this part doesn't bother me. I was once standing in line for coffee in South Korea (literally the other side of the world from my home town) and realized I was standing behind a neighbor from the street I grew up on. Crazy coincidences like that can and do happen. As long as the author doesn't over-rely on them I don't mind. Especially when you consider that visiting a brothel is a very realistic behavior for both men in this situation.

[Renly's Banana]

He's a desperate man in love with nowhere else to go, leave poor Jorah alone. Of course he's gonna do stupid, nonsensical things. 

[Luddagain]

Surely the whole of Ser Jorah's story is of a man led astray by love for a woman/women.

He had been desperately in love with Lynesse who treated him badly but caused him to sacrifice honour and home.

Wandering aimlessly he desperately wanted to go home - to get a pardon. For this he was prepared to sacrifice honour once again and spy on Dany.

Then he fell for Dany who was after all a substitute for Lynessa - they looked similar even.

His love for Dany was sincere and restorative ie he could be brave and honourable once again. Thrown out by her, he is again devastated.

Expecting rational behaviour is beyond reason.

[Luddagain]

Renleys banana

Here here.

Leave Ser Jorah alone - he is one of my favourites.

Sometimes i think GRRM hates really attractive women - they seem to harm their menfolk.

 

i have also read somewhere on this blog a suggestion that both Lynesse AND Lyanna were sort of siren fairy women leading men astray - based on Irish myth

"The leannán sídhe is generally depicted as a beautiful muse who offers inspiration to an artist in exchange for their love and devotion; however, this frequently results in madness for the artist, as well as premature death. W. B. Yeats popularized a slightly different perspective on these spirits with emphasis on their vampiric tendencies:^[2]

The Leanhaun Shee (fairy mistress) seeks the love of mortals. If they refuse, she must be their slave; if they consent, they are hers, and can only escape by finding another to take their place. The fairy lives on their life, and they waste away. Death is no escape from her. She is the Gaelic muse, for she gives inspiration to those she persecutes. The Gaelic poets die young, for she is restless, and will not let them remain long on earth—this malignant phantom.

[aryagonnakill#2]

7 hours ago, Praetor Xyn said:

If you learn about GRRM's life, you'll see why. His life is full of unrequited love and love triangles, where someone left him for another man. That's why there are so many of them in our story.

The women always break the heart, never the men, because GRRM wasn't the heart breaker, he was the heart broken.

That's why we have Tyrion X Shae, Jorah X Daenerys, Littlefinger X Catelyn, Ned X Ashara (if she left him for Brandon), Robert X Lyanna, etc.

What about LF Lysa, Michael Redord with Mya Stone, and Brandon with Barbery Dustin?

[Praetor Xyn]

Just now, aryagonnakill#2 said:

What about LF Lysa, Michael Redord with Mya Stone, and Brandon with Barbery Dustin?

True. I spoke absolutely, which was wrong, but what I said is generally correct.

Brandon has the excuse that his father made him marry Catelyn, though he seems caddish enough he'd have left her anyway.

I don't recall the second example. If the man is a knight or something he has the cultural excuse that she's a bastard.

As to LF, that one is a bit odd. He's one of the more objectionable characters, so I'm tempted to say he doesn't count, but Lysa's infatuation with him is also the linchpin upon which most of the plot rests.

[Damon_Tor]

17 hours ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

This isn't some romantic schoolboy with a crush, he's a grizzled, wordly man who should know better.

Jorah is a fool for love. His whole situation is a result of it. It's his Kryptonite.

[JonSnow4President]

34 minutes ago, Luddagain said:

His love for Dany was sincere and restorative ie he could be brave and honourable once again. Thrown out by her, he is again devastated.

His "love" for Dany is the same type of obsessive, possessive, jealous "love" that people associate with the stereotypycial butt-hurt neckbeard or "nice guys". 

Although I agree that this could still cause him to ignore her threat to kill him (I honestly don't know why GGG doesn't think that makes no sense). 

[Good Guy Garlan]

9 minutes ago, JonSnow4President said:

His "love" for Dany is the same type of obsessive, possessive, jealous "love" that people associate with the stereotypycial butt-hurt neckbeard or "nice guys". 

Although I agree that this could still cause him to ignore her threat to kill him (I honestly don't know why GGG doesn't think that makes no sense). 

I'm not entirely sure the text supports the notion of Jorah Fedora. I think GRRM is truly trying to sell this as true love. The conversation with the Widow of the Waterfront when Jorah has this heartfelt moment about how he wants to protect Dany or whatever seems pretty earnest (from GRRM's depiction, that is). And there are lots of little moments like that, when he's wistfully gazing at the walls of Meereen and even a jaded cynic like Tyrion thinks stuff like, "He loves her" or whatever. I don't think GRRM is giving us the impression that this is possessive or obsessive. Desperate and pathetic, sure, but rather...earnest for all that, I think. 

[black_hart]

He was always firmly in the friendzone, but was close and important to her nonetheless. And since Dany is a queen, she certainly has employ for advisors, queensguards, loyal friends. And him running back to Meereen of all places despite the threat should show her something, if she ever meets him again. A lot of people around her are completely devoted to her without any crush whatsoever. So is his unrequitted "love", really that important in the scheme of things?

TL;DR: Friendzone can be a large space of opportunity around a queen and not as pathetic as the swarm of "still hopefuls" look around normal people.

[DMC]

5 minutes ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

I think GRRM is truly trying to sell this as true love. The conversation with the Widow of the Waterfront when Jorah has this heartfelt moment about how he wants to protect Dany or whatever seems pretty earnest (from GRRM's depiction, that is). And there are lots of little moments like that, when he's wistfully gazing at the walls of Meereen and even a jaded cynic like Tyrion thinks stuff like, "He loves her" or whatever. I don't think GRRM is giving us the impression that this is possessive or obsessive. Desperate and pathetic, sure, but rather...earnest for all that, I think. 

From Jorah's perspective, I don't think there's a distinction between "true love" and obsessive/possessive.  That's the entire point of unrequited love, right?  Upon outright rejection, it takes that ugly turn from "cute crush" to creepy guy that won't leave me alone.  But, from the obsessive's perspective, which is all we've had, he's being a total Romeo.  That's what I think Martin has built with Jorah - and is supported by Tyrion's observations that "damn, he's really, really into this chick" - and thus why I think it's actually perfectly within-character for him to do what he did upon encountering Tyrion.  

Obviously, you can complain about the plot contrivance of that encounter all you want - doubt even Martin could defend such a serendipitous meeting - but even within that meeting (i.e. him fucking the silver-haired whore), the characterization matches the motivation for Mormont.

[JonSnow4President]

25 minutes ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

I'm not entirely sure the text supports the notion of Jorah Fedora. I think GRRM is truly trying to sell this as true love. The conversation with the Widow of the Waterfront when Jorah has this heartfelt moment about how he wants to protect Dany or whatever seems pretty earnest (from GRRM's depiction, that is). And there are lots of little moments like that, when he's wistfully gazing at the walls of Meereen and even a jaded cynic like Tyrion thinks stuff like, "He loves her" or whatever. I don't think GRRM is giving us the impression that this is possessive or obsessive. Desperate and pathetic, sure, but rather...earnest for all that, I think. 

I guess we'll agree to disagree. He's an unrepentant slaver, who blames Ned for his own actions leading to his exile.  Once he starts to see Dany as a young Lynesse (ACOK), he starts trying to get her to distrust everyone who isn't him. He presses himself on her, and when she rejects him, he acts surly.  He's unrepentant about betraying her to Varys, downplays it, and demands that she must forgive him rather than begs for it.  That ain't love in my world. 

8 minutes ago, dmc515 said:

From Jorah's perspective, I don't think there's a distinction between "true love" and obsessive/possessive.  That's the entire point of unrequited love, right?  Upon outright rejection, it takes that ugly turn from "cute crush" to creepy guy that won't leave me alone.  But, from the obsessive's perspective, which is all we've had, he's being a total Romeo.  That's what I think Martin has built with Jorah - and is supported by Tyrion's observations that "damn, he's really, really into this chick" - and thus why I think it's actually perfectly within-character for him to do what he did upon encountering Tyrion.  

Obviously, you can complain about the plot contrivance of that encounter all you want - doubt even Martin could defend such a serendipitous meeting - but even within that meeting (i.e. him fucking the silver-haired whore), the characterization matches the motivation for Mormont.

I think there is such a thing as unreliquited love.  But it involves a very healthy respect for the other person's boundaries and an ability to not feel like they owe you something.  I would marry my friend in a heartbeat if she asked for it, but I'm okay respecting her wishes to not date anyone right now and simply staying friends.  

[Good Guy Garlan]

1 minute ago, dmc515 said:

From Jorah's perspective, I don't think there's a distinction between "true love" and obsessive/possessive.  That's the entire point of unrequited love, right?  Upon outright rejection, it takes that ugly turn from "cute crush" to creepy guy that won't leave me alone.  But, from the obsessive's perspective, which is all we've had, he's being a total Romeo.  That's what I think Martin has built with Jorah - and is supported by Tyrion's observations that "damn, he's really, really into this chick" - and thus why I think it's actually perfectly within-character for him to do what he did upon encountering Tyrion.  

Obviously, you can complain about the plot contrivance of that encounter all you want - doubt even Martin could defend such a serendipitous meeting - but even within that meeting (i.e. him fucking the silver-haired whore), the characterization matches the motivation for Mormont.

Right, but we don't have Jorah's perspective. We have Tyrion's, who at this point is in a funk and should be like, "Jorah, you stalker loser" and more than anyone should be absolutely cynical about love after the Shae affair, but instead the word choices and the way the whole thing is described in his chapters seem to imply that there's something pure and not sick/obsessive/possessive going on with Jorah. Or that's the impression I got, anyway. I'd reread those chapters but they bore me to hell and back. 

[DMC]

6 minutes ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

Or that's the impression I got, anyway. I'd reread those chapters but they bore me to hell and back. 

LOL.  To be fair, I haven't reread those chapters either in a good year or so, but I take your point on Martin's depiction of Jorah's...interest in Dany.  However, I would reiterate that Tyrion's final say on the subject, AFAI recall, is pointedly telling Jorah Dany is more likely to forgive Tyrion than Mormont based on the circumstances.  After that, I don't think it's in Tyrion's inner-monologue, but that may be wrong.

Anyway, Jorah's motivation can be inferred by his actions.  You mentioned Robb/Jeyne at the beginning of this thread.  That requires exposition because we weren't there.  In Jorah's case, Martin has provided us plenty of opportunities - and evidence! - to observe his obsessive ways.  If you think the presentation trends more towards a traditional beauty/beast or whathaveyou love story of sorts, fair enough, but that's not how I've interpreted it.

[DMC]

30 minutes ago, JonSnow4President said:

I think there is such a thing as unreliquited love.  But it involves a very healthy respect for the other person's boundaries and an ability to not feel like they owe you something.

Right.  The second sentence is what I think Jorah is sorely lacking, and why it's devolved into obsession.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

21 hours ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

I'm talking about Jorah going back to Dany with Tyrion.

<snip

Gone is the street-wise character from aGoT and in his place there's an irrational fool that makes irrational decisions. 

And no, this isn't "character development", IMHO. This is acting out of character. 

Am I alone in this? *crickets*

My take is that Jorah has turned both desperate and pathetic. That may be character development if he can pull out of it and become a better man. Pretty standard hero stuff to hit rock bottom and then rise up and be badass again. And you have to admit the ensuing irony of the banished slaver being taken as a slave is pretty darn good.

20 hours ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

Yeah, but the "love" argument is an easy way out, IMO. Like, for example, GRRM took his time to set up the chain of events that led to Robb having sex with Jeyne Westerling. He could've easily could've waved his hands and said, "It was love! Love is the one thing we're capable of perceiving that transcends dimensions of time and space!" But he didn't because that's cheap. Like how the show did it with Talisa. 

He should've changed his mind when he woke up the next morning with a killer hangover and an annoying dwarf. 

Or he didn't because Robb didn't fall in love. Sometimes the characters don't act the way you expect them to. If Robb HAD fallen in love with Jeyne, it actually would have made more sense to a lot of people than his "I won't father a bastard" reason for screwing up his whole war.

Oddly, I think Jorah is one of the few characters left in the books who would say that love is the one thing we're capable of perceiving that trancends dimensions of time and space, and is all-powerful, and all that stuff.

 That's a great line. A killer hangover and an annoying dwarf. I wonder if I can work that into everyday conversation. Maybe stepping off an elevator in front of a group of strangers...

If it helps, you can always imagine that Bloodraven and Bran have been whispering to Jorah while he dreams, and Jorah is just doing what the voices tell him to do.

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

4 hours ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

I'm not entirely sure the text supports the notion of Jorah Fedora. I think GRRM is truly trying to sell this as true love. The conversation with the Widow of the Waterfront when Jorah has this heartfelt moment about how he wants to protect Dany or whatever seems pretty earnest (from GRRM's depiction, that is). And there are lots of little moments like that, when he's wistfully gazing at the walls of Meereen and even a jaded cynic like Tyrion thinks stuff like, "He loves her" or whatever. I don't think GRRM is giving us the impression that this is possessive or obsessive. Desperate and pathetic, sure, but rather...earnest for all that, I think. 

I don't think Tyrion - the rapist murderer who paid a hooker to pretend she loved him, stopped paying her, and then murdered her when it turned out she didn't really love him - I don't think he's the best judge of what love is.

As for the OP:

1. Did Jorah know that Cersei had offered a lordship for Tyrion's head?

2. I'll buy that Jorah is obsessed with Dany rather than properly in love with her, and will end up turning against her

3. It's not impossible that GRRM really is trying to sell it as love, in which case, gross - if Jorah ends up romantically sacrificing himself for her... yuck

4. All that notwithstanding, yes, you're totally right, it's just a plot device to get Tyrion to Meereen.

I read somewhere that there was a different version of events at one point, where Jorah joined the Golden Company in Volantis and that's how he met Tyrion. Or maybe I just made that up. Either way, it's more plausible than the "of all the gin joints in all the world" that we got. And I think a Jorah who joins the Golden Company, meets the new Aegon, and deserts them for Daenerys rather than head west - so he can deliver her information about Aegon being fake, and thus worm his way back into her good graces - might have been more plausible. But GRRM clearly wants Tyrion dropping that bombshell.

Thinking about it, that would work even better because Jorah knows about the mummer's dragon prophecy, so he knows very well how important that piece of info is to Daenerys, and he can suspect he might be believed and forgiven.

I dunno, that seems better to me. But it doesn't get Tyrion to Meereen.

[DMC]

3 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

My take is that Jorah has turned both desperate and pathetic. That may be character development if he can pull out of it and become a better man. Pretty standard hero stuff to hit rock bottom and then rise up and be badass again. And you have to admit the ensuing irony of the banished slaver being taken as a slave is pretty darn good.

This is a very good point - so I'm not just quoting because I'm creepily into Lady B's words.  Once Moqorro blows everything to shit, Jorah the slave seems decidedly different than he was beforehand when he was waxing poetic about Dany and informing Tyrion on the intricacies of Volantene electoral politics.  Jorah the slave seems well on his way back up from rock bottom by the end of ADWD, which suggests by the time he actually does encounter Dany, his viewpoint on the whole relationship may have fundamentally changed from the point when he kidnapped Tyrion.