The Brave Wolf

Why is Jon Snow the favourite Stark (usually)?

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Something that I have noticed about the feelings of the fans on House Stark is that more often than not Jon Snow, the Bastard of Winterfell, is the favourite character of the family. Of course, it it alternates between Ned and Robb sometimes but most of the time it is Jon and I think I know why. 

Now, let's briefly talk about the Starks. 

Catelyn Stark - doesn't count as a Stark. 

Ned Stark - honourable but naive

Robb Stark - honourable but has a sense of entitlement that makes him arrogant and sometimes stupid

Sansa Stark - kind but trusts too easily

Arya Stark - not honourable nor does she trust easily, she just does what she has to do to survive making her a total badass

Brandon Stark - makes bad decisions for the sake of making bad decisions

Rickon Stark - lets be real, he's not a real character. 

Now, as for Jon Snow, I think the reason he is liked is because his personality is like the personality of what we imagine the Starks of Old were like for example Theon Stark the Hungry Wolf and Cregan Stark who brought about the Hour of the Wolf. 

He definitely has the honour of Ned  but I think he knows, at least in the book, to use it sparingly. He can be ruthless as shown when he switches Gilly and Mance's babies. And he wasn't killed because of his honour but because he didn't trust his 'comrades' with his plans. There is also the fact because he is a bastard he is not too trusting having experienced how horrible people can be in his youth e.g Catelyn Stark. 

Show Jon is an idiot but the real Jon, as in book Jon, is the best Stark character, in my opinion, for this reason. 

What do you think?

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12 minutes ago, Aydin Celtek said:

Now, as for Jon Snow, I think the reason he is liked is because his personality is like the personality of what we imagine the Starks of Old were like for example Theon Stark the Hungry Wolf and Cregan Stark who brought about the Hour of the Wolf. 

Well, in my opinion his personality is like the personality of a soggy sheet of paper, but that's just me. 

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Starks of the Old are not good people. If Jon is anything like Theon Stark then he should be actively disliked.

I don't like Jon but I could understand the Stark fandom and I think they like him better because Jon resembles Ned Stark more. He follows his values and his actions were more Ned like. Almost every Stark fan would have started as a fan of Ned Stark and it is in Jon they see Ned Stark. It is also because Robb fandom has unanimously accepted Jon as the head of the house Stark as the eldest remaining and as named as his heir in his will.

It is also a reason why Arya is more liked than Sansa because Arya resembles Ned more than Sansa.

 

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34 minutes ago, khal drogon said:

Starks of the Old are not good people. If Jon is anything like Theon Stark then he should be actively disliked.

I don't like Jon but I could understand the Stark fandom and I think they like him better because Jon resembles Ned Stark more. He follows his values and his actions were more Ned like. Almost every Stark fan would have started as a fan of Ned Stark and it is in Jon they see Ned Stark. It is also because Robb fandom has unanimously accepted Jon as the head of the house Stark as the eldest remaining and as named as his heir in his will.

It is also a reason why Arya is more liked than Sansa because Arya resembles Ned more than Sansa.

 

Sansa is the child that is most like Ned than all his children even Jon. Arya is liked more than Sansa because Arya is a more active character. For the whole series we see Sansa as passive only showing small signs of rebellion but for the most part she's just waiting for things to happen to her. Arya, though many things happen to her out of her control we still see her actively taking part of her own fate. Plus Arya is exercising vengeance to Stark enemies and though GRRM plainly states that that is not a path to follow, the many Stark fans can still be somewhat happy that at least a Stark is dishing out some well deserved revenge. 

And I agree with you somewhat that Jon is liked in part because he's kinda like Ned(Ned is my favorite character in the series)but he also plays up that classic hero type trope not all the way but he plays it somewhat. Also Jon isn't a greedy, cruel asshole whose main motivation is that ugly chair or revenge. 

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Because he's a misunderstood angsty teenage boy with smoldering good looks who everybody hates and has a giant pet wolf. The guy is like a cheesy anime character. Personally he's not only the worst Stark, but one of the most boring POVs in the whole series.. but that's just me. He has the personality of a burnt yam. 

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Book Jon is very blah looking. Not ugly, but someone who wouldn't get a second look.

I haven't been around long enough to tell, but has book Jon's popularity increased because of Kit?

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Ned, Robb, Catelyn are dead. Robb never had a POV. Rickon is very young. Among the remaining four most people like more than one, preferences vary, plenty like all four. However, Jon is in the middle of the story, while Bran, Sansa, Arya (and Rickon) are either incognito and / or removed from the main events by location.

I don't know which bad decisions Bran makes, his only bad decision was getting close to the darn window.

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Posted (edited)

Catelyn is my favorite Stark and I think she counts as a Tully and a Stark.

Edited by Lord of Raventree Hall

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3 hours ago, The Wolves said:

Sansa is the child that is most like Ned than all his children even Jon. Arya is liked more than Sansa because Arya is a more active character. For the whole series we see Sansa as passive only showing small signs of rebellion but for the most part she's just waiting for things to happen to her. Arya, though many things happen to her out of her control we still see her actively taking part of her own fate. Plus Arya is exercising vengeance to Stark enemies and though GRRM plainly states that that is not a path to follow, the many Stark fans can still be somewhat happy that at least a Stark is dishing out some well deserved revenge. 

And I agree with you somewhat that Jon is liked in part because he's kinda like Ned(Ned is my favorite character in the series)but he also plays up that classic hero type trope not all the way but he plays it somewhat. Also Jon isn't a greedy, cruel asshole whose main motivation is that ugly chair or revenge. 

Sansa has Ned in her which I don't deny but from what I have seen from the "Northern Masterrace" fandom there is not much love for her. Because she is the Southron among the Starks. A part of this fandom still hates Sansa for telling about Ned to Cersei.

 Jon is not greedy but he still covets a ruling position which is not so Nedlike. And yeah he was also for revenge but gets pulled back eventually to his duties. We have to see what kind of person he becomes eventually because I believe there will be a subversion of the heroic journey trope.

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I fail to see how anyone could list Catelyn as a favourite Stark - at least from the books - the show is more sympathetic.

In Ned's words to her "how can you be so cruel" we see the real lady.

Sure she loved her kids but not wisely - she allowed Septa Mordane freedom to disparage and hurt Arya, she probably personally showed favouritism to Sansa and Bran - something no mother should do. She rather neglected little Rickon in her grief for Bran - again while understandable shows her as quite a flawed character.

Her judgements were flawed and she was easily manipulated by Littlefinger.

Her behaviour was treacherous when she let out Jaime and had she been a man she would have lost her head.

She slit Jinglebells throat and became a vengeful demon as Lady Stoneheart. We see where Arya got her personality.

The Starks are on the North and she hates the north. She fears the heart tree and the cold.

 

Obviously I put her bottom of my list

 

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Rickon is just above Catelyn, but he essentially has no character just a wild toddler

Sansa obviously comes next on the bottom because of her earlier treachery to her family. She suffered a lot, but has done relatively little to help herself. However she is young and may well redeem herself but allowing the singer to be executed for a murder he did not commit is not brave or noble.

Robb is the third last because essentially he is a bit thick. Noble and basically good he is a poor judge of character - Theon, his mother,Karsark, Edmure, the Westerlings.  However Robb was just a boy so I am not too hard on him and he is certainly one of the better characters in the book

Ned is better that Robb, probably because he is older and wiser. He is a better judge of character but still quite naive. Unlike Robb he had some disappointment growing in Brandon's shadow, which makes him more empathetic

Arya I favour ahead of most because she is clever, brave and resourceful and loyal to her family. She is essentially kind. Her vengeful spirit which she seems to have got from her mother is a black mark, but she is just a young child and may well redeem herself.

Bran is basically a good guy - a little spoiled but essentially wise, brave and probably honourable. He is only a very young child.  Each of his behaviours is entirely understandable, even if not entirely right. he was sad and bitter about losing his legs - obviously.  He mistreated Hodor BUT for a very young child how could he understand the difference between imposing on Hodor by sitting in a basket on his back, and imposing by entering his mind. Actually IS there any difference? If little lord Bran demands Hodor carry him to eat dinner how does this different from him commanding him to borrow his legs a while. Bran's story line is however rather dull

Much as I like Bran and Arya and Ned, Jon is my favourite. He is the smartest (maybe except Arya). He is the wisest. He has shown strong family loyalty AND a sense of duty. He has become a good leader of men. He is politically astute. He has been courageous. just because Jon does not do around slitting throats or stabbing stable boys, many think him dull. His treatment of Sam was kind and wise. His dealing with the wildings was wise and very politically courageous. He is a good judge of character - Mance, Val, etc. so far he has resisted Melisandre - something Stannis did not. He cut of Janos Slynt's head. He is of course too young for his position, but with the NW in disarray and no longer the recipient of many brave and wise officers, what alternative? Just because he had a few tears at age 14 when the full realisation of his bastard status hit him for the first time, people judge harshly. When he reached the wall he was a bit up himself, but he got over it quickly.  Compare him to Ser Waymar Royce, who 6 months in was still an arrogant know it all who cause the death of two other men.

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I'm not particularly a Stark fan, I actually dislike the North and find it geographically and culturally quite unappealing.

Personally my favourite Stark is Sansa, because I can relate to her the most and find the court life and intrigues described in her chapters FAR more entertaining than anything Jon, Arya or Robb have done. Ever.  Yes she is naive and arrogant, but she's a preteen. They tend to be naive and arrogant. Her fatal flaw in the beginning is simply that she doesn't understand that appearances don't always match reality and she is currently growing out of that mindset.

Jon's story line, imho, only got interesting at the tail end of the published material, when the boring, tedious,  stagnant situation at the Wall was shaken up by the arrival of the Wildlings and Mellisandre/Selyse/Shireen and he decided that he was going to safe Farya. Up until then I really didn't find anything interesting about him.  Again here I can see him growing into a more interesting (to me) character. He might end up being my second favourite Stark by the end (if you can call the illegitimate son of Lyanna and Rhaegar a Stark, that is, might as well call him a Targaryen)

Form the very start I didn't like what Robb was planning. Throwing the Lannisters out of the Riverlands is okay, they didn't have any business brutalizing the populace there...but then he declared independence and waged war beyond protecting the Riverlands... which made him lose any sympathy I might have had for him, since now he, fielding medieval armies, was the one bringing suffering to the populace of the Westerlands, who hadn't done anything to deserve that either... Then he refused to trade Jaime for his sisters and blergh... I just don't like war, okay? 

What I will say in defense of Robb however is that he tried his best to be a just man in his general decisions. If we ignore the ridiculous independence war, I think Robb served justice when he executed Rickard Karstark. And he tried to make good with Jeyne Westerling, a maiden he had deflowered in a moment of emotional vulnerability. Robb could be seen as an examples baout how the road to hell is paved with good intentions since all his originally just decisions (Helping the Riverlands, dealing justice among his subjects, not dishonoring a noblewoman and fathering a bastard) contributed to his downfall.

Arya ranged from boring to straight out annoying and/or unappealing to me. Some people have pointed out that she shows some promise into growing into something more than a large, angry squirrel, so if that happens I might start to like her more.

With Brann I like the magic aspect of is chapters, not so much the rest, however.

Rickon might as well not exist.

I actually found Ned pretty close-minded, prejudiced and judgmental, but he was still a good person who tried his best and in the end even swallowed his pride in an attempt to ease the suffering of his daughters. So he's my second favorite Stark right now.  Plus I really liked his interactions with Cersei (remember when she was interesting, instead of some batshit crazy caricature?)

Catelyn, I actually find very emotionally cold and unforgiving. Imho, she is, to some extend, excused for acting rashly with Tyrion, she thought he had tried to kill her son. I can even to an extend understand her feeling towards Jon if I take both the emotional wound Ned dealt her with raising Jon at Winterfell as well as the dynastic worries this might cause into account. (Really Ned, would it have been that much of an issue to tell your wife that the kid's actually your nephew?) 

However it's things like her thinking that Edmure is a fool for sheltering smallfolk inside Riverrun that made her unsympathetic to me. In general Catelyn seems fond of calling out foolishness in other people (Edmure, the Court at the Eyrie, Renly) without recognizing her own.

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14 minutes ago, Luddagain said:

I fail to see how anyone could list Catelyn as a favourite Stark - at least  from the books - the show is more sympathetic.

In Ned's words to her "how can you be so cruel" we see the real lady.

Sure she loved her kids but not wisely - she allowed Septa Mordane freedom to disparage and hurt Arya, she probably personally showed favouritism to Sansa and Bran - something no mother should do. She rather neglected little Rickon in her grief for Bran - again while understandable shows her as quite a flawed character.

Her judgements were flawed and she was easily manipulated by Littlefinger.

Her behaviour was treacherous when she let out Jaime and had she been a man she would have lost her head.

She slit Jinglebells throat and became a vengeful demon as Lady Stoneheart. We see where Arya got her personality.

The Starks are on the North and she hates the north. She fears the heart tree and the cold.

 

Obviously I put her bottom of my 

Cat is my favourite because she is the most human character may be in the entire books. She takes bad decisions but we could definitely understand why she takes those decisions. 

She has flaws, biases and she was even haughty sometimes but if you look at her background story and her character development everything is explained. In fact she is more nuanced and defined character than Ned Stark. At least that's what appeals to me.

Sorry Cat isn't cruel. Her behavior was cruel at only one point that too a lowest point in her life. She was cold to Jon but was never cruel.

No she does not show favoritism. She wanted to mould Arya into a proper lady which Arya resists. Arya felt that her mother didn't like her initially but you know what name she chose for her during her faceless men training. 

She didn't neglect Rickon. If one of her child is in death bed every mother would do exactly what she did. That's not a flaw that's human. 

Cat is one of the best written character in the entire book and gets a lot of unwarranted hate.

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Posted (edited)

13 minutes ago, Luddagain said:

 However she is young and may well redeem herself but allowing the singer to be executed for a murder he did not commit is not brave or noble.

 

Not to excuse that, but Marillion did attempt to rape her not long before that.

Arya meanwhile straight up murdered a singer for the crime of wishing to make a better life for himself.

Seems a tiny bit worse to me.

Edited by Orphalesion

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Why does Ned call her cruel?  Why did Robb expect her to be cruel and unkind to Jon.

She was the evil stepmother for Jon - no getting around it.

There are plenty of other human characters in the books, making flawed but understandable judgement calls.

Yes I said Catelyn's behaviour toward Rickon was understandable but it was essentially weak. even in sever grief no mother should neglect her youngest.  She left Rickon behind when she went to KL, a really thoughtless l act.

How does cat's trying to force arya to become a lady differ from Randall Tarly forcing Sam to become a warrior. Sure i think her actions were quite understandable, however the question wa whether she is a a favourite and she has done little to earn that position.

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Sometimes I get a feeling that most people like Jon because of the hype surrounding him rather than the character himself. Because his personality is very very bland. I don't see what people see when they talk about his personality but his supporting cast is one of the best and what helps me to read his chapters.

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4 minutes ago, Luddagain said:

Why does Ned call her cruel?  Why did Robb expect her to be cruel and unkind to Jon.

She was the evil stepmother for Jon - no getting around it.

There are plenty of other human characters in the books, making flawed but understandable judgement calls.

Yes I said Catelyn's behaviour toward Rickon was understandable but it was essentially weak. even in sever grief no mother should neglect her youngest.  She left Rickon behind when she went to KL, a really thoughtless l act.

How does cat's trying to force arya to become a lady differ from Randall Tarly forcing Sam to become a warrior. Sure i think her actions were quite understandable, however the question wa whether she is a a favourite and she has done little to earn that position.

Where did Ned call her cruel or have I forgot it?

She did not want to be a stepmother to Jon and I believe she has a choice there. She never acted cruelly on purpose to him except that one time in grief.

You are being ridiculous here. She doesn't have to take Rickon in a dangerous travel to KL where she herself has to go disguised. Rickon had a lot of people to take care of him. Even during bran's injury it is Bran who needed full attention.

She was no Randyll Tarly because she didn't put Arya in a dungeon or threatened her to send her to the wall.

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7 minutes ago, khal drogon said:

Sometimes I get a feeling that most people like Jon because of the hype surrounding him rather than the character himself. Because his personality is very very bland. I don't see what people see when they talk about his personality but his supporting cast is one of the best and what helps me to read his chapters.

Pretty much. Though I didn't find his supporting cast (aside from, possibly Sam) all that interesting until the Wildlings and the Team Dragon Stone showed up.

11 minutes ago, Luddagain said:

Why does Ned call her cruel?  Why did Robb expect her to be cruel and unkind to Jon.

She was the evil stepmother for Jon - no getting around it.

There are plenty of other human characters in the books, making flawed but understandable judgement calls.

Yes I said Catelyn's behaviour toward Rickon was understandable but it was essentially weak. even in sever grief no mother should neglect her youngest.  She left Rickon behind when she went to KL, a really thoughtless l act.

How does cat's trying to force arya to become a lady differ from Randall Tarly forcing Sam to become a warrior. Sure i think her actions were quite understandable, however the question wa whether she is a a favourite and she has done little to earn that position.

Again, Catelyn's bheaviour towards Jon can be understood from the POV of a noblewoman living during Feudal times. From Cat's POV Ned, by bringing up Jon alongside his trueborn children, pretty much invites a potential danger to her children and their inheritances. She isn't "evil" she just isn't perfect and Ned is partly to blame for not letting her in on the truth about the child.

So you say she should have dragged Rickon along to a city that, as far as she suspected, was laced with people attempting to murder her family? Brilliant! it's not like noble children in Westerosi culture are solely dependent on their parents as guardians...

How does it differ? Well let's start with the tiny, little detail that Catelyn didn't emotionally and physically abuse Arya into becoming a lady unlike Randall did with Sam. Her attempts to make Arya able to function in society is nothing out of the norm keeping the time period in mind.

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1 hour ago, khal drogon said:

Sansa has Ned in her which I don't deny but from what I have seen from the "Northern Masterrace" fandom there is not much love for her. Because she is the Southron among the Starks. A part of this fandom still hates Sansa for telling about Ned to Cersei.

 Jon is not greedy but he still covets a ruling position which is not so Nedlike. And yeah he was also for revenge but gets pulled back eventually to his duties. We have to see what kind of person he becomes eventually because I believe there will be a subversion of the heroic journey trope.

Jon does not covet a ruling position. I think he is ambitious and wants to be more than a bastard that's why he wants Winterfell before he rejects it. He also only took the Lord Commander position because of his honor but Jon does not desire to rule. 

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khal drogon

Catelyn II as they are discussing leaving Winterfell and she refuses to keep Jon. I am doing a reread and just noted it.

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