Why is Jon Snow the favourite Stark (usually)?

[Lord Lannister]

3 hours ago, Darkstream said:

Isn't it obvious? Your bitching about people liking something that you don't. While using the phrase "why don't people like what I do", to do so.

And for the record, I somewhat agree with your sentiment on this matter, but respect others people's right to indulge in these types of threads if they so choose.

You are a shining example of civility and class, sir. I salute you. Clearly obvious, and having to sift through all my threads must be a horrible burden.

[Darkstream]

4 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

You are a shining example of civility and class, sir. I salute you.

Well, I'd like to commend you on being the bigger person, and owning up to your hypocrisy... However, I can only say that I find your sarcasm to be quite tawdry.

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Clearly obvious, and having to sift through all my threads must be a horrible burden.

Please, forgive my lack of empathy for the grueling hardships you are forced to endure.

See, I can be sarcastic too, if that is the type of conduct you would prefer.

You do realize that I could make the same complaint about whatever type of threads that you like reading? You've now managed to be hypocritical on two counts.

[Joy Hill]

Jon is probably the least interesting Stark for me, followed by Arya (I don't dislike them, they just happen to be at the bottom of the list). Yet they seem to generally be the most popular Starks. I guess Jon is the classic hero, and Arya is in some ways a typical female protagonist (feisty young girl who doesn't want to be a lady), so they might appeal to a wide audience.

My favorite Stark is Sansa, followed by Bran, Ned and Cat.

On a side note, I find it interesting that none of GRRM's original big 5 (Jon, Dany, Arya, Bran, Tyrion) are among the characters I love the most.

[Alaynsa Starne]

Jon is alright, but he's not my favorite. His superfans rub me the wrong way, as they seem to think he's the specialest boy in all of Westeros and that no other characters matter, which blows his importance and characteristics out of proportion, but otherwise he's pretty alright. I like Sansa and Bran quite a bit more than him. 

[Arya-Jon]

On 3/7/2017 at 5:59 PM, The Wolves said:

Jon does not covet a ruling position. I think he is ambitious and wants to be more than a bastard that's why he wants Winterfell before he rejects it. He also only took the Lord Commander position because of his honor but Jon does not desire to rule. 

Jon does not desire to rule, but he wants glory. He thirsts for glory.

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Jon Snow had dreamed of leading men to glory just as King Daeron had, of growing up to be a conqueror. Now he was a man grown and the Wall was his, yet all he had were doubts. He could not even seem to conquer those.

Another example

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Despite his bastard birth, or perhaps because of it, Jon Snow had dreamed of leading men to glory just as King Daeron had, of growing up to be a conqueror.

Very very few people in Westeros want to rule. Ruling is hard. They either seek the power or the glory. Jon is not power hungry, but he really really wants to prove his worth and wants the glory that comes upon proving himself. He would want to conquer not for the power that comes from conquest, but the glory that comes from winning.

[Arya-Jon]

Jon is the center of Grrm's Story. Has connections to both Starks and Targaryens . To ice and fire. That he is well liked by the other main Starks helps his case. For instance it is more likely for an Arya fan or a Bran fan to be pro Jon than anti Jon. Connections to Dany and Tyrion are also there. If the author has set you up as the central character this way and the closest thing to a classic hero, you would certainly have a big fanbase.

The main reason for his surge in popularity since book 1,2 is 

1) Death of Robb and Ned. - But especially Robb. House Stark is not simply a house. What makes it special are its leaders. They are people who can fight and command men. Ie a leader who is good with the sword. They are honorable. They symbolize House Stark. Ned held the role, then Robb. These two people were considered as undisputed leaders of the house. Hence people focused on them. But with their death, people look at other options. Jon reminds people of Ned and Robb the most, with his sword fighting skills , his honor and because he is a male of similar age to Robb. For those who seek/ want a Stark  to lead the Starks in battle and retake Winterfell, Jon is an important candidate. So Stark loyalist fans naturally gravitate towards him. Ned and Robb fans who did not know who to root for after their death gravitate towards Jon due to his similarities with them. Unlike the noblemen of Westeros, fans are not so concerned about the fact that Jon Snow is a supposed bastard hence not really a Stark. Or that he is a son of Lyanna Stark , hence not a Stark. For fans , Jon by default is grouped with the Starks.

2) By the time of ADWD his plot become more exciting. He has by then become a leader of the Night's watch. We get to see how he rules . (I have noticed that seeing people in a position of command is more interesting to people than when they are not. Example :Robb became more interesting to people when he was crowned. Dany when she emerged from the fire and everyone began bowing. People automatically give importance to leaders as the main players in the game of thrones ) He gets to meet some damn interesting characters. Alys, Melisandere His plot becomes a center of activity in terms of not only the white walkers , but also the politics of the wall and the  fight for the north, while other plots remained relatively one dimensional..

3. As people began to realize his Targaryen heritage. They learned that he is a prince in hiding. This made him all the more interesting to them as he has now become a real candidate for things like Azor Ahai, iron throne, prince who was promised etc. Maybe hints of his relationship with Dany is also a factor which makes people like him (if they are Dany fans). This third point (Azor Ahai, Dany, secret prince) may also turn of some people. But I think it attracts more people than it turns off.

 

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Jon Snow is a likeable character and the closest thing to clear cut protagonist in these books, so it's easy to see why he's a fan favourite.

Personally, I like him a lot because of his ADWD arc. For me, he started up pretty meh, became interesting once beyond the wall, and then in ADWD... his story and characterization is simply stellar there, IMO.

He's not my favourite Stark, though. Cat and Arya are first and second (they are also my overall first and second favourite characters), and then it's Jon and Sansa who share my overall fifth place of favourites along with Tyrion.

[HaeSuse]

Jon Snow is my second least favorite character in all of the books, and I consider myself a true Stark Loyalist, leal to the end (Dany is by far the worst). 

 

He has no dimensions. He's just "hur hur, I'm an honorable bastard of a northern lord hur hur". And, "waaaaah, waaaaaah, am I a brother, a freefolk, a Stark, a Bastard, or noone, waaaah waaaaaah." The next time I read the books, I am skipping all of Jon's and Dany's chapters, until at least book 6. Horrible, plodding, trudging, brutal agony of reading. 

 

 

My personal ranking of Stark characters:

1.  Rickon - He's the one I've wanted to sit the throne, or retake Winterfell, the most. He got the shortest one every time straws were drawn. He is a baby, growing into a manchild. He's a true Stark. And he's angry. Love him.
2.  Arya - her total badassery is enough.
3. Sansa - She's growing. She could be utterly cunning and ruthless by the end, and the main channel through which Stark revenge is taken out. Her arc is what I like. Not the story itself, but her slow but steady understanding of the wickedness and cruelty of the world of Westeros.
4. Bran - His arc is a little too deus ex machina for me. Oh, the little warging lordling is going to become a god (or even a whole collection of gods?), a greenseer, the 3 eyed crow. He's going to be the key to the battle to come, etc. Just too mystical/magical for my tastes. But Bran himself is awesome.
5. Ned - Fun to read about a super-honorable man. He met the end he chose for himself, though. No regrets.
6. Rob - Who cares. No POV chapters. Stupid decisions. Jeyne. Decided his wolf was wild and not needed. He got what was coming to him. No regrets.
7. Cat - The tired, sad mother routine was old by book 2. Un-Cat? Ugh. More deus-ex-machina zombie nonsense. 
8. Jon - Waaaaaaaaaaaaa waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa. Poor bastard. I hope he is resurrected as a zombie to join the white walkers. Really. 

[The Exiled Septa]

You know.... from all the Starks we have  known the only ones who could remind me of the old Starks are Brandon Stark(Neds brother) , Lyanna and Arya.

In the scene where Tyrion says a joke about  a Lannister, a Martell and a Stark lord he says that if the Stark lord had found a fly in his cup he would have grapped the fly and said " spit it out"(the wine)

Jon doing that?Just the idea makes me laugh.

If i was to describe the old Starks i would use two words:strong willed and imposing.

For me(unfortunately)Jon is kind of strong willed but imposing?? No 

I cant explain why but i don't like him very much.what i   mean is  that i like him as a person and i would like him as a secondary character but i don't like him for the importance of the role he has.

For me he is just too dull and when i read his POV i don't get strong emotions from him. Its like he doesn't feel so hard like Arya or Dany does.

I'm sitting here like an hour and try to write how i feel about him but i cant describe it very well in this language since its not my mother tongue.

The only think that i can say without being confusing is that i wanted him more imposing as a character and i want to believe that he is going on that direction.There has been a huge change from the boy we saw on the first book who cried cause  Cat was strict with him and the one who in the fifth book has accepted his flaws without crying.But i still expect more of him and i hope i will see it in the sixth and seventh book.

I really wanted to like him and i remember  when i  finished reading the fifth book..... i had said to my brother "finally Jon becomes more badass".

But then the show comes and boom ....it destroyed everything for me.Why did they make Sansa persuade Jon to take Winterfell and save Rickon?why did they make Jon so incompetent to make that decision alone and look like a weak man who needed his sister help?? To make Sansa look more strong than she was in the past?And then of course when he began to  hit Ramsey  i thought he was gonna kill him  buttttt nooooo ....he left him so Sansa( again )could take her revenge.I didn't like those things( maybe you did witch is good for you)and truth be told i neither like the actor very much.So Jon Snow in the TV is a disappointment to me.....but what really matters  is how i find him in the books witch is ok but i'm still waiting for something more .

I hope  i could see things differently but no matter how hard i try i cant.I haven't read the rest of the responses but i will ,hopping that you guys will make me see him with a better perspective.

 

 

[The Exiled Septa]

On 3/7/2017 at 7:42 AM, Good Guy Garlan said:

Well, in my opinion his personality is like the personality of a soggy sheet of paper, but that's just me. 

you are not alone

[NorthGirl]

Ok, questions.

1) Jon Snow is the favourite Stark? How is that quantified exactly? Because just impressions are not enough.

2) There is a homogeneous, single minded and completely in agreement Stark fandom? Well that's news to me.

I mean, my username is NorthGirl so it's clear which region holds my interest the most. I think the Northern culture is interesting, I find the Starks as a dynasty much more complex than given credit for and I often find myself defending Ned Statk to an almost stan-like level. So I really the North, the Sharks and I really love Ned. And yet, Jon Snow is my least favourite Stark POV. Which includes Catelyn who I really don't have the warm and fuzzies for despite feeling sympathy and recognising her as one of the best characters.

I nothing Jon Snow to a level that I almost feel bad about because he is clearly an important piece of the story.

I'm not saying you're wrong but before even getting to the why, I would like to be convinced that it's the case.

 I also kind of think that I'm unfair to Book Jon because I had watched 4 seasons of the show before reading the books so I was already conditioned see him as a brainless but well intentioned jock. It is also frustrating that he only really starts to be interesting (as an individual, not the bigger implications of his storyline) at the end of Storm and then in Dance. Problem is, everything is interesting at the end of Soto so my interest was with those I had already invested in and then Dance is my least favourite book so I only re-read the parts that really appealed to me, and I just forget about Jon.

[The Exiled Septa]

On 7/3/2017 at 1:18 PM, Orphalesion said:

I'm not particularly a Stark fan, I actually dislike the North and find it geographically and culturally quite unappealing.

Personally my favourite Stark is Sansa, because I can relate to her the most and find the court life and intrigues described in her chapters FAR more entertaining than anything Jon, Arya or Robb have done. Ever.  Yes she is naive and arrogant, but she's a preteen. They tend to be naive and arrogant. Her fatal flaw in the beginning is simply that she doesn't understand that appearances don't always match reality and she is currently growing out of that mindset.

Jon's story line, imho, only got interesting at the tail end of the published material, when the boring, tedious,  stagnant situation at the Wall was shaken up by the arrival of the Wildlings and Mellisandre/Selyse/Shireen and he decided that he was going to safe Farya. Up until then I really didn't find anything interesting about him.  Again here I can see him growing into a more interesting (to me) character. He might end up being my second favourite Stark by the end (if you can call the illegitimate son of Lyanna and Rhaegar a Stark, that is, might as well call him a Targaryen)

Form the very start I didn't like what Robb was planning. Throwing the Lannisters out of the Riverlands is okay, they didn't have any business brutalizing the populace there...but then he declared independence and waged war beyond protecting the Riverlands... which made him lose any sympathy I might have had for him, since now he, fielding medieval armies, was the one bringing suffering to the populace of the Westerlands, who hadn't done anything to deserve that either... Then he refused to trade Jaime for his sisters and blergh... I just don't like war, okay? 

What I will say in defense of Robb however is that he tried his best to be a just man in his general decisions. If we ignore the ridiculous independence war, I think Robb served justice when he executed Rickard Karstark. And he tried to make good with Jeyne Westerling, a maiden he had deflowered in a moment of emotional vulnerability. Robb could be seen as an examples baout how the road to hell is paved with good intentions since all his originally just decisions (Helping the Riverlands, dealing justice among his subjects, not dishonoring a noblewoman and fathering a bastard) contributed to his downfall.

Arya ranged from boring to straight out annoying and/or unappealing to me. Some people have pointed out that she shows some promise into growing into something more than a large, angry squirrel, so if that happens I might start to like her more.

With Brann I like the magic aspect of is chapters, not so much the rest, however.

Rickon might as well not exist.

I actually found Ned pretty close-minded, prejudiced and judgmental, but he was still a good person who tried his best and in the end even swallowed his pride in an attempt to ease the suffering of his daughters. So he's my second favorite Stark right now.  Plus I really liked his interactions with Cersei (remember when she was interesting, instead of some batshit crazy caricature?)

Catelyn, I actually find very emotionally cold and unforgiving. Imho, she is, to some extend, excused for acting rashly with Tyrion, she thought he had tried to kill her son. I can even to an extend understand her feeling towards Jon if I take both the emotional wound Ned dealt her with raising Jon at Winterfell as well as the dynastic worries this might cause into account. (Really Ned, would it have been that much of an issue to tell your wife that the kid's actually your nephew?) 

However it's things like her thinking that Edmure is a fool for sheltering smallfolk inside Riverrun that made her unsympathetic to me. In general Catelyn seems fond of calling out foolishness in other people (Edmure, the Court at the Eyrie, Renly) without recognizing her own.

Yes yes yes ....if you read the chapter from the TWOW im sure you will grow to like her.I felt exactly the same before i read the chapter.She annoyed me very  much but that changed when i read that chapter.I was really amazed and i think so will you ...at least i hope so.

[Rondo]

This thread question assumes a lot.  I hate Jon Snow.  He's not my favorite Stark. 

[The Exiled Septa]

On 14/3/2017 at 3:17 PM, The Wolves said:

Just cause Sansa taught him how to talk to girls doesn't mean that girls weren't attractive to him. 

Lots of good looking people can be awkward and shy when interacting with the opposite sex. 

 

Yes but i think he or she is right.George is very clear when someone is handsome and by the way he has described Jon it does seem that he is just plain. Anyway i would chose a 100 times for Jon to be ugly but less dull as a character but that is just me.

[PCK]

I like Bran and Robb. And I'm beginning to prefer Sansa to Arya. I don't dislike Jon though. Book wise, he is one of the best POV characters.

[Scorpion92]

Jon Snow is my favorite Stark because I actually view his future storyline as not this "good honorable bastard son of Ned Stark". He always dreamed to be a conqueror, and I expect he will conquer Westeros and place House Stark at the top of the ladder. And I expect our favorite Starks will not be viewed in such a positive moral light after they come on top, but that is a topic for another day.

After that, storywise he will no longer be needed, and Sansa and Arya will take leadership of House Stark and all ruling aspects that come with royal dynasty. There is a reason why Sansa and Arya are going through this training under Littlefinger and Faceless Men.

[Orphalesion]

On 13/03/2017 at 8:23 PM, GhostNymeria said:

For being such a small background character, you seem to have a lot of interest in defending Dareon's actions of all people. Is he your favorite character or something?

 

On 14/03/2017 at 0:41 AM, Winter's Cold said:

That poster just dislikes Arya and uses the Dareon assassination to justify it.

 

On 14/03/2017 at 1:10 AM, GhostNymeria said:

Yes, I know he/she's doing that. I responded to him/her about it in another thread. I just found it kind of funny how many extensive and long arguments the poster made about Dareon's supposed "innocence" in the other thread and now this thread as well, considering how many people have been killed by other POVs. Apparently Dareon's death was much worse and more unjustifiable than all the others.

No this is more about me absolutely loathing the Night's Watch and Medieval justice systems. it could have been Sansa doing that and I wouldn't have liked it, that would have actually made me angrier, because I would have liked her up to that point (like the time when Daenerys dealed out collective, random punishment in Meereen). On the other hand if Dareon had been portrayed killing or sexually assaulting someone before his encounter with Arya, well then I wouldn't have minded.

Note how I also see nothing wrong with Jon breaking his ridiculous vow when leaving the wall to save whom he believed to be Arya.

Or that I don't fault Arya for killing people like the Tickler or that random Bolton guard. One was the murder of somebody who enjoyed torturing smallfolk to death and the other was to protect herself and her friends.

It's like Daenerys dealing collective punishment (something else I'm not fond of) in Meereen, it's just an action I, personally cannot find any way to justify. If she had taken his money and his right hand for stealing and had left him unconscious in that alley I would have seen no problem with it, since the punishment would have fit the crime (theft) 

I don't think something ridiculous like that she's irredeemable for doing that or that, given Character development I would ever be incapable of being invested in her story, I just think it was unjust.

On 13/03/2017 at 11:14 PM, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Seemed genuine to you.

Funny, in your very next sentence you mention death. Joining the Night's Watch is not a lighter punishment than death? Exile to Essos is not a standard punishment in Westeros.

No, actually castration would have been more likely. But he CHOSE the Wall instead. It sure wasn't a choice between two wonderful vacations but he did have a choice, and he made that choice. No one is actually forced to take the vows. That's another choice he made.

They do to Westerosi people living in Essos.

She did no such thing. She was following established law. Westerosi law. Westerosi Arya. Westerosi Dareon. 

Well your humble opinion doesn't matter in the story. Really? The whole organization? Who exactly is supposed to fight the Others then? Or have you missed that the original reason the Night's Watch was even created is back as of the prologue to the first book?

According to you. He was old enough to sleep with the girl which means he was old enough to know the culture and its rules, and the potential consequences. Young is not an excuse for not considering consequences after one reaches puberty. We have brains, we're supposed to use them, and that goes for sleazy fictional singers too.

We have no evidence to the contrary, and certainly Arya had none.

No, joining the Night's Watch is arguably worse than death, since it means a potentially long live at the worst place in Westeros with day after day, after day of drudging through snow and having to fight Wildings as part of an eternal penal colony. There is nothing good or beautiful at the Wall; the food is awful, the company is awful, the surroundings are awful and there is no hope to improve your situation beyond the most marginal level, ever again. Your identity and self-determination are stripped off you, permanently, You are now a tool for a glorified border patrol that has lost its meaning long ago and is only kept on life support because of tradition and because it marginally benefits whomever parks their behind on the Iron Throne at the moment. You are surrounded by people who have committed actual, violent crimes and by people who under some delusion that being an inmate at Castle Black is something to be proud or happy about. You will never experience gentleness or affection again. It's hell. Frankly I'm surprised that they don't have a sky high suicide rate at the Wall or that there haven't been more large scale rebellions among the Night's Watch.
The advantage of being alive as opposed to death is, usually, that you can hope to improve your lot as long as you are alive. In the Night's Watch you can't, unless you escape, in which case your life is forfeit.You might as well be already dead.

Where is the evidence that it would have been castration? If we question whether Dareon was honest about his "crime" or not, then this is questionable as well. We know for a fact how little worth the life of smallfolk has to many Westerosi nobles.

No I have not missed the reason, but I still think the Night's Watch was a awful solution to that problem, epsecially the version of the Night's Watch it has become by now. Personally I think it should be a mandatory, temporary ,military service for any noble born. As to who should fight the Others...the Wall will fall anyway before the story is over, no matter how many people in black they force to sit on it. And Westeros has armies, does it not? 

Even a boy of twelve is capable of sleeping with a girl and fathering children, doesn't mean he is capable of understanding legal systems. Sexual maturity does not equal mental maturity. Oint was, as long as a person is alive, they can grow and repent, dead people can't as far as we know. Also the book is very vocal in pointing out how putting people as young as the characters in position of extreme duty and responsibility isn't exactly healthy or fair on them.

In any case, I don't think theft should be punishable by death and last time I checked Arya is also acting against the will of her sovereign, King Tommen by not being a hostage at the Red Keep (nicer place than the Wall btw, even with Cersei there) AND against the rules of the Faceless Men by murdering someone she hasn't been assigned to assasinate. And she was punished for it, with her temporary blindness, another indication that she had no business doing so. She has broken her commitment as much as Dareon did. 

And, before people misinterpret that; NO I don't think Arya should have stayed put and allowed Cersei and the Small Council to play their games with her, far from it, I'm just saying that technically, she acted against the word of her king and if ridiculous medieval law is binding for one character, regardless of what horrible fate it would consign them to, then it's binding for the other as well, no matter how "badass" they are.
Also, to stay "just" (if you call that justice) she'd now have to kill Jon, for the same "crime". Oh wait, I forgot, Jon will probably get a handy loophole by having been technically dead for a bit. How convenient! Oh if Dareon had only known that all he has to do is to be a main character, getting stabbed and brought back from the brink of death/actual death.

[Darkstream]

3 hours ago, Orphalesion said:

If she had taken his money and his right hand for stealing and had left him unconscious in that alley I would have seen no problem with it, since the punishment would have fit the crime (theft) 

So you have no issue with the fact that Arya is dishing out punishment for crimes, just that the punishment didn't fit the crime? An understandable stance, however you seem to want to continue ignoring the fact that he is a deserter, punishable by death. I understand your thoughts regarding the Nights Watch, however those thoughts are irrelevant in regards to your argument. Despite your objection to these customs and laws, that is just the way of it, in the society that Dareon lives in.

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No, joining the Night's Watch is arguably worse than death, since it means a potentially long live at the worst place in Westeros with day after day, after day of drudging through snow and having to fight Wildings as part of an eternal penal colony. There is nothing good or beautiful at the Wall; the food is awful, the company is awful, the surroundings are awful and there is no hope to improve your situation beyond the most marginal level, ever again. Your identity and self-determination are stripped off you, permanently, You are now a tool for a glorified border patrol that has lost its meaning long ago and is only kept on life support because of tradition and because it marginally benefits whomever parks their behind on the Iron Throne at the moment. You are surrounded by people who have committed actual, violent crimes and by people who under some delusion that being an inmate at Castle Black is something to be proud or happy about. You will never experience gentleness or affection again. It's hell. Frankly I'm surprised that they don't have a sky high suicide rate at the Wall or that there haven't been more large scale rebellions among the Night's Watch.

The advantage of being alive as opposed to death is, usually, that you can hope to improve your lot as long as you are alive. In the Night's Watch you can't, unless you escape, in which case your life is forfeit.You might as well be already dead.

Well, that's just your opinion on the matter, and clearly Dareon doesn't share that opinion. Otherwise he wouldn't have chosen the Wall as his punishment, as opposed to the other option he was given.

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 Even a boy of twelve is capable of sleeping with a girl and fathering children, doesn't mean he is capable of understanding legal systems. Sexual maturity does not equal mental maturity.

So why is it that you don't allow for this rationale when judging Arya? She is doing what she believes to be right, and upholding justice to the best of her understanding given her mental maturity.

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And she was punished for it, with her temporary blindness, another indication that she had no business doing so. 

This is factually incorrect. She was in fact rewarded for it. Her blindness was not a punishment, it was an advancement in her training. So, another indication that allthough she may have had no business doing so, it was understandable and justifiable, considering her age and situation.

[Philokles]

You love to dwell on how much of a shithole the Wall is when defending Dareon, always avoiding the rather obvious fact that he was chosen as one of the lucky ones who doesn't have to live there.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

On 6/4/2017 at 5:27 PM, HaeSuse said:

He has no dimensions.

Are you kidding?