The Brave Wolf

Why is Jon Snow the favourite Stark (usually)?

149 posts in this topic

4 hours ago, Horse of Kent said:

<snip

Whoever was in charge of Margaery's tuition did a good job of moulding a young woman capable of being a lady when required, but also having further interests such as riding and hawking. I don't believe Cat was detached enough to not see how badly her daughter was coping under Mordane. She just must have not considered that there were better alternatives.

<snip

Margaery was more than twice Arya's age. She may have spent her early years learning needle work and only gone on to learn riding and hawking later. Riding and hawking are probably things Margaery learned primarily to help with husband catching--enjoying them may be be a lucky chance. Have you ever heard the song "Betty's Got a Bass Boat?" Same principle.

I don't think that Cat was detached, just stumped. And Arya didn't know how to explain what she was feeling, so instead of a plea for understanding and a need for something different, she appeared angry, willful, and rebellious. Cat had no experience with girls like Arya, so she didn't know what to do.

And I don't think that she knew there were better alternatives, if there even were any.

By the way, OP, Jon's not my favorite.

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1 hour ago, Luddagain said:

 

Jon on the other hand is so bloody selfless that it makes him seem saccharine and unbelievable. starting with the direwolves, then joining the NW, then giving Arya needle, helping Sam, running away to join Robb, saving Mormant, trying to save the  saving the wildings, shooting the burning "mance", rejecting Stannis's offer of Winterfell and finally his plan to rescue Arya..

Jon is so selfless, he puts his own family's needs and his desires to see a just king ahead of the safety of the Night's Watch, which he knows is pivotal to the success of humanity against they Others.  

I love the man, but he done messed up for personal (and relatable) reasons). 

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2 hours ago, Orphalesion said:

He was forced to take that (completely ridiculous) vow for a crime he didn't commit. A vow you take under duress is not a true vow imho. And he wasn't in Westeros anymore so he was beyond the reach of said vow.

All he did was trying to make a better life for himself.

A crime he says he didn't commit. He may or may not actually be innocent. And sleeping with a nobleman's daughter could have gotten him killed. He got off easy with joining the Night's Watch. Real singers in the medieval world did not have that option.

He chose to take the vow. He could just as easily have chosen not to do so and faced the punishment. 

He clearly was not beyond the reach of said vow. I don't recall anything in the text that said the NW deserter's life is forfeit...unless he leaves the country. 

"All he did" was ditch his responsibilities, steal money that wasn't his, and desert Sam at a time when he most needed help. If all he wanted was to make a better life for himself he could have not taken the money, helped Sam deal with everything until ship-out time, and just not gotten on the boat when Sam and Gilly left Braavos. He also could have been smart enough to ditch the blacks so nobody would know he was ever in the NW.

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Margaery is not twice Arya's age but is about 5 years older. I am sure that I read that Arya had said her father was to allow her a hawk when older but not sure if I imagined it.

I think that there is a point - Sansa was too sheltered and allowed to dream to much. She was a bit too much the lady and not quite sufficiently practical.

Septa Mordane was a truly awful teacher for Arya and not perfect for Sansa - too much the lady.

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On 3/8/2017 at 0:07 AM, Luddagain said:

Margaery is not twice Arya's age but is about 5 years older. I am sure that I read that Arya had said her father was to allow her a hawk when older but not sure if I imagined it.

I think that there is a point - Sansa was too sheltered and allowed to dream to much. She was a bit too much the lady and not quite sufficiently practical.

Septa Mordane was a truly awful teacher for Arya and not perfect for Sansa - too much the lady.

I sit corrected. Had Arya and Bran's ages mixed up in my head.

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Posted (edited)

On 07/03/2017 at 4:25 AM, Orphalesion said:

Not to excuse that, but Marillion did attempt to rape her not long before that.

Arya meanwhile straight up murdered a singer convicted rapist for the crime of wishing to make a better life for himself. desertion, which is punishable by death.

Seems a tiny bit worse to me.

You made a bit of a mistake there, I fixed it up for you.

I'm not saying that excuses her actions, or makes it right, but in her eyes, she was doing what she thought was right and justified. She didn't murder a singer just because he was trying to make a better life for himself.

Edited by Darkstream

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5 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

You made a bit of a mistake there, I fixed it up for you.

This revision looks much better

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On 07/03/2017 at 4:32 AM, Luddagain said:

 

How does cat's trying to force arya to become a lady differ from Randall Tarly forcing Sam to become a warrior. 

Seriously? :rolleyes:

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Posted (edited)

On 07/03/2017 at 4:00 PM, Orphalesion said:

He was forced to take that (completely ridiculous) vow for a crime he didn't commit. A vow you take under duress is not a true vow imho. And he wasn't in Westeros anymore so he was beyond the reach of said vow.

All he did was trying to make a better life for himself.

Arya is not privy to what Dareon claims. Shitty for him, if what he says is true. However, us knowing of these claims does not make your assessment of Arya's actions any more accurate.

And sure he was trying to make a better life for himself...Selfishly, and at the detriment of other's well being, whom were counting on him.

Edited by Darkstream

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He is the underdog. and he is a bada**.  Also he has so many people hate him just for being what he is yet he doesn't turn into a bad guy. He fights for what is right even when it is painful. Plus he has an albino direwolf. Also in terms of honor how many characters could truly have made his decision to stay with the nightswatch even before he knew he would be lord commander. He had the option of having his dreams come true and he could have made a deal with stannis not to burn the trees like the red woman wanted too.  Despite it all he still kept his honor and the only character who did that was ned stark. Yet jon snow seems to know there are some things he can't do and due to his natural mistrust of many people because he was picked on all his life. Arya is cool and I think beats out all the other starks besides jon.

 

Sansa is hard to like in the beggining because she is a spoiled child. As she grows we see her mature and not be so whiny. But she has always played a hostage ever since her father was taken prisoner so it's hard to like her since it makes her seem so weak. Although in feast of crows I started to like her.

 

Bran is my least favorite stark with the exception of catelyn if she counts. Not sure why he just is

 

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11 minutes ago, snow is the man said:

He is the underdog. and he is a bada**.  Also he has so many people hate him just for being what he is yet he doesn't turn into a bad guy. He fights for what is right even when it is painful. Plus he has an albino direwolf. Also in terms of honor how many characters could truly have made his decision to stay with the nightswatch even before he knew he would be lord commander. He had the option of having his dreams come true and he could have made a deal with stannis not to burn the trees like the red woman wanted too.  Despite it all he still kept his honor and the only character who did that was ned stark. Yet jon snow seems to know there are some things he can't do and due to his natural mistrust of many people because he was picked on all his life. Arya is cool and I think beats out all the other starks besides jon.

 

Sansa is hard to like in the beggining because she is a spoiled child. As she grows we see her mature and not be so whiny. But she has always played a hostage ever since her father was taken prisoner so it's hard to like her since it makes her seem so weak. Although in feast of crows I started to like her.

 

Bran is my least favorite stark with the exception of catelyn if she counts. Not sure why he just is

 

I'm albino myself, though my eyes are blue (I'm actually legally blind because my retinas have no pigment). I never thought about it but that ciuld subconsciously contribute to my liking Jon.

To me he's just sort of the Stark by default. Ned and Robb are dead, Bran is a cripple and will likely be stuck in a tree for the rest of his life, Sansa isn't exactly likable until later on and is obviously the least Stark of the bunch, Rickon is barely a character, Catelyn is a Tully and there's nothing to like about her even if you count her as a Stark. It's pretty much just down to Jon and Arya, but Jon likely wins for a lot of people due to his age and Arya being a bit broken.

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3 minutes ago, Praetor Xyn said:

I'm albino myself, though my eyes are blue (I'm actually legally blind because my retinas have no pigment). I never thought about it but that ciuld subconsciously contribute to my liking Jon.

To me he's just sort of the Stark by default. Ned and Robb are dead, Bran is a cripple and will likely be stuck in a tree for the rest of his life, Sansa isn't exactly likable until later on and is obviously the least Stark of the bunch, Rickon is barely a character, Catelyn is a Tully and there's nothing to like about her even if you count her as a Stark. It's pretty much just down to Jon and Arya, but Jon likely wins for a lot of people due to his age and Arya being a bit broken.

I admit I also grew fond of him due to how he was with tyrion. it was cool to see how they were both outcast and became friends

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21 minutes ago, snow is the man said:

I admit I also grew fond of him due to how he was with tyrion. it was cool to see how they were both outcast and became friends

There's really nothing to dislike about Jon as a character, a lot of people just dislike him because he's pretty tropey compared to most of the other characters, which is more a criticism of GRRM'S writimg than a reason to dislike a fictional character.

He reminds me a lot of FitzChivalry Farseer from Robin Hounds Realm of the Elderlings works, which obviously influenced GRRM at least a little in the writing of this series. I know he's read it because at the beginning of it there's an endorsement from, ho, saying Robin Hobbs books are like diamonds in a sea of zircon.

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My favourite Stark, from top to bottom (book only):

Sansa (her show counterpart is the next bottom of the list though)

Ned

Jon

Bran

Robb

Arya

Catelyn (her show counterpart is in a much better position than in the book)

 

Poor Rickon doesn't count since he's still a baby the last time we saw him.

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I don't know if Jon is my favorite, but Sansa is by far the worst.  

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On 7/3/2017 at 9:36 AM, Lollygag said:

Book Jon is very blah looking. Not ugly, but someone who wouldn't get a second look.

Not true. He had the Stark look but that doesn't mean that he isn't handsome, especially since we have seen how many women has looked him twice. Let’s not forget that Brandon had the Stark look and he had no problem at this department. 

Also he has scars and scars are always sexy.

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On ‎3‎/‎7‎/‎2017 at 1:24 PM, the conquering bastard 25 said:

I dont know about that started the series because of the show but i do know this Kit Harrington is Gorgeous...so if hes book Jon's counterpart book Jon's a stud as well

According to the books AGOT and ACOK  , Jon looks like Eddard . And Eddard  looked plain according to Catelyn .

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Posted (edited)

8 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Not true. He had the Stark look but that doesn't mean that he isn't handsome, especially since we have seen how many women has looked him twice. Let’s not forget that Brandon had the Stark look and he had no problem at this department. 

Also he has scars and scars are always sexy.

Again, positing your subjective opinion (or more aptly, your desire and wish) as fact. As far as one can make a claim on such a subjective matter, according to the text, as BRANDON GREYSTARK pointed out, Jon is not considered to be noticeably handsome.

Edited by Darkstream

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I think GRRM is trying to force us to question morality etc when we think of Arya and Daeron.

Ned executed Gared because he deserted the NW. Gered had far better reasons for desertion than had Daeron.

Arya executed Daeron as a deserter so what exactly was her crime. If she had been a BOY then she would have been Lord of Winterfell or King in the North and as such could have chopped off as many heads as she liked, even at 11. Indeed given that the world believes Bran and Rickon dead and Sansa is attainted, Arya IS the heiress to Winterfell. She has committed no crim in the eyes of the law .

What shocks us is her age, the lack of formality etc.

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There are numerous good reasons to dislike Jon.  I don't like him. 

  1. He is a deserter who had to be brought back by the other boys.
  2. His idea of justice is fickle.  He executed Slynt but allowed Mance Rayder to walk because of personal reasons.  There was no justice in that.  Slynt's crime is very minor compared to what Mance Rayder has done.
  3. Jon attacked the Boltons, unprovoked.  Sending your wildling to steal the wife of a nobleman is an act of war.  This is nothing less than treason and a violation of Night's Watch code.

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