The Brave Wolf

Why is Jon Snow the favourite Stark (usually)?

196 posts in this topic

13 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Blast - I got logged out and lost everything. Short version.

As for Mel/Val/Alys: interest in Jon =/= Jon is hot. It only means interest in Jon. That's it. I think there's more there to be interested in than just his looks. As for Mel, Jon is the brother to a king, so he has king's blood. Mel's only into R'hllor and his agenda. She's not looking for romance.

The plain argument: it's not an argument. The text is quite clear. Ned is plain + Jon looks just like Ned :. Jon is plain. I need more text from the books if I'm to believe otherwise.  And it happens all the time that 2 attractive people have plain kids, and 2 plain people have beautiful kids.

Boys' appearance: I grew up with a lot of boys who were very handsome at these ages. There's also the boy band phenomena, Justin Bieber, Disney channel shows, etc. Attractiveness can't be assumed by age and gender alone. Joffrey is 12 and described as very well developed and rather, um, pretty. AGOT Jon I: Sansa, two years older, drew the crown prince, Joffrey Baratheon. He was twelve, younger than Jon or Robb, but taller than either, to Jon's vast dismay. Prince Joffrey had his sister's hair and his mother's deep green eyes. A thick tangle of blond curls dripped down past his golden choker and high velvet collar.

Talking to girls: Where I'm from, this is how you refer to the flirting which is appropriate to young teenagers, as opposed to the 2:00am drunken hook-up type flirting. I won't argue the point, though, since this means different things to different people, and I'm not sure what GRRM intended. This is how I see it, and for me, it builds onto the text.

 

Wow, you're really in denial about this aren't you

I think we can all grasp that there is a huge difference between an 11 yr old fancying a cute boy of 12 and a grown up fully fledged sexually experienced woman fancying a 17 yr old. I dunno about you but the boys I crushed on at 11 were boys but by 16 I was only interested in actual men. And at 35 the thought of sleeping with a 17 year old makes me feel a bit ill. Mel is potentially in her hundreds and is via her glamour an arrestingly beautiful woman. She can fuck anyone she chooses for her shadow babies. Funny how she never once mentions Jon's King's Blood? Not to mention her interest in that blood is entirely sacrificial. We have zero hints that any magic other than the actual killing type requires kings blood (even then frankly I doubt it's a real thing, and I think she is talking more psychologically, people are more awed by the sacrifice of royalty.) We have nothing to indicate that she'd be interested in Jon sexually because of his supposed Kings blood. 

Val really is into him and he is into her and she was showing interest in him and he her prior to his appointment as LC of the NW. She shows her disdain for Kneelers and appears to have absolutely no personal interest in anything she might be able to get from a relationship with him. She is also a sexually experienced grown up, we don't know how old. But she is not a kid. And she is so beautiful Jon thinks she doesn't even need to smile, and could turn heads in any court in the land. 

I don't even know what your point is in your last paragraph? That Sansa was teaching him age appropriate flirting? Errrr. Nope. Sansa as much as I love her, I have to concede was not being a super cool little sister who wanted to make sure her big bro could get a few snogs out of the staff. As I pointed out, she was schooling of Jon in courtship. Because that is courtship. Not flirting. flirting is something far, far more instinctual and his interactions with Val are a great example of good flirting. 

Sansa is, by the way, an excellent flirt. We see her working lads left right and centre in her Winds sample chapter for instance.  But at this point, she is 13 going on 14 and has learnt much and more about men and their desires. 11 year old Sansa had enough knowledge which is likely influenced by what her Septa has told her she ought to enjoy as a young maid and how she ought to expect a suitor to behave. To tell Jon that girls like dancing, and it's a good idea to pay them compliments. But this can be applied to any scenario when you are trying to ingratiate yourself with someone. If I want a job I might cultivate a skill which I know the potential employer values, and I might pay a compliment or two. hell I do that with my kids teachers, cos the more they like you the more understanding they are with your kids.  

 

 

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Posted (edited)

On 3/15/2017 at 4:28 AM, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Wow, you're really in denial about this aren't you

I think we can all grasp that there is a huge difference between an 11 yr old fancying a cute boy of 12 and a grown up fully fledged sexually experienced woman fancying a 17 yr old. I dunno about you but the boys I crushed on at 11 were boys but by 16 I was only interested in actual men. And at 35 the thought of sleeping with a 17 year old makes me feel a bit ill. Mel is potentially in her hundreds and is via her glamour an arrestingly beautiful woman. She can fuck anyone she chooses for her shadow babies. Funny how she never once mentions Jon's King's Blood? Not to mention her interest in that blood is entirely sacrificial. We have zero hints that any magic other than the actual killing type requires kings blood (even then frankly I doubt it's a real thing, and I think she is talking more psychologically, people are more awed by the sacrifice of royalty.) We have nothing to indicate that she'd be interested in Jon sexually because of his supposed Kings blood. 

Val really is into him and he is into her and she was showing interest in him and he her prior to his appointment as LC of the NW. She shows her disdain for Kneelers and appears to have absolutely no personal interest in anything she might be able to get from a relationship with him. She is also a sexually experienced grown up, we don't know how old. But she is not a kid. And she is so beautiful Jon thinks she doesn't even need to smile, and could turn heads in any court in the land. 

I don't even know what your point is in your last paragraph? That Sansa was teaching him age appropriate flirting? Errrr. Nope. Sansa as much as I love her, I have to concede was not being a super cool little sister who wanted to make sure her big bro could get a few snogs out of the staff. As I pointed out, she was schooling of Jon in courtship. Because that is courtship. Not flirting. flirting is something far, far more instinctual and his interactions with Val are a great example of good flirting. 

Sansa is, by the way, an excellent flirt. We see her working lads left right and centre in her Winds sample chapter for instance.  But at this point, she is 13 going on 14 and has learnt much and more about men and their desires. 11 year old Sansa had enough knowledge which is likely influenced by what her Septa has told her she ought to enjoy as a young maid and how she ought to expect a suitor to behave. To tell Jon that girls like dancing, and it's a good idea to pay them compliments. But this can be applied to any scenario when you are trying to ingratiate yourself with someone. If I want a job I might cultivate a skill which I know the potential employer values, and I might pay a compliment or two. hell I do that with my kids teachers, cos the more they like you the more understanding they are with your kids.  

 

 

Yes, I'm absolutely in denial about Jon being good looking. I've only received 1 piece of text supporting this idea across 5000 pages. Do you have more which are actual physical descriptions?

And that 1 piece is ambiguous given that "sweet' is more often used as a term of endearment than as a description of physical attractiveness. Look up the definition and go to A Search of Ice and Fire to look up the typical usage of "sweet" if you don't want to take my word for it. By itself, this isn't strong at all.

ASOS Jon II: Ygritte helped pull him up. "He's bleeding like a butchered boar. Look what Orell did t' his sweet face.

As for the rest, I've stated my point already or do not have a position to state. There are several more viable reasons, and story-wise much more compelling reasons, for why Jon has women around him than "he's hot", especially given the lack of physical descriptions supporting that.

 

Edited by Lollygag
Forgot something

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OK

Obviously you are guys not girls.  Give you a little secret laddies - looks (face hair) are NOT especially attractive to older women - girls grow out of liking Justin Beiber at about 16.

What is attractive is strength - physical and mental - power and that odd combination of strength and kindness that is Jon to a tee. Jon is a strong boy (all that training), able to climb the wall, a bloody good swordsman for his age and a leader of men.  Every bloody girl for miles would like him. power is the aphrodisiac.

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Posted (edited)

well he is not a stark.... and that puts him straight to the top of that sorry bunch

Edited by melx

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I'm a girl.

My problem is with the argument that Jon is attractive in a pretty way, like book Jaime or Kit, which has been asserted by others and is in conflict with the text which states that he's plain.

I completely agree that Jon may be quite attractive in a rugged way, especially for women who don't go for pretty men. But everyone has different tastes, so generalizing that every girl would go for Jon or any guy isn't accurate at all.

You mention his strengths, so I'll list his negatives for the record: he's still average looking with a lean build, prone to berserker rages, is only a great swordsman in contrast to his fellow-Watchmen who've had little or no training, is such a great leader that he got murdered for his efforts, and isn't generally known as charismatic or charming.

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Posted (edited)

Well, I disagree @Lollygag I think the text makes it blatant that he is good looking, and by the way, I don't think I see his looks like you think I do. 

Things do not have to be outright stated in order to be obvious. That's part of the art of writing. You have to develop ways to convey things without actually saying them. Otherwise, the text feels fake and inorganic. Plus the author is hiding the character's parentage in plain sight, you wouldn't want to state things such as how hot Jon is because it rings alarm bells for the reader re: Jon's parentage; Ned was indeed a homely guy. But at the same time, he needs to convey that Jon is more Stark like than Cat's children. She isn't going to reference other people because she is preoccupied with her own kids status and Ned's affections as a father.  So she naturally compares him to Ned. Which is nice and helpful for the author, as it keeps the reader focused on Ned as his father.  And he definitely has the Stark look, other people comment upon it too. But as I said, not all Starks are plain, having the Stark look doesn't mean one is plain at all. Arya is another good example and indeed another clue that Jon is good looking. Arya has the Stark features, she is teased by her sister and Jeyne because of this. Yet Arya looks like her Aunt (Jon's mother) who was renowned as a great beauty; a wild one but most definitely renowned.  Arya feels she is unattractive. But we see several people comment on how pretty she is. Lady Smallwood, the Kindly man, Gendry clearly thinks she is.  

So when we couple the fact Jon is desired by several female characters  (and at least 50% of those are well out of his league in status, age, looks; if you buy into the idea he is a plain looking man. And have if they so chose way better marriage prospects than the LC of the NW.)  and throughout the books with the fact he looks like Arya who looks like Lyanna who was one of the great beauties of her age. If an unconventional one. And that he has the Stark look, a look which can be very attractive; see Brandon as well as Lyanna. And his actual father was Rhaegar Targaryen:- one of the most attractive men of his age too if not the most. It is pretty clear that Jon is a good looking guy. Add in all the other qualities and tada!!! we have a winner ladies.

Like I said, I don't think by the way, that I see his looks the way you think I do. And I agree pretty is not what women look for. See my earlier post. Women want men, not boys.  Which is exactly why I think Mellisandre desiring him and Val desiring him point to him being a good looking, sexy and physically appealing lad. 

I can't comment on power, as frankly, I have never found power or status remotely attractive. They tend to come combined with being a complete cock head.

But I do think he's very good looking and has that certain appeal. Once years ago in a thread on this topic, I described my thoughts on Jon's appeal as he's probably one of those guys that makes your knickers wet when you get a whiff of his sweat. And I stand by that.  I think he's got to be good looking, but that his looks aren't necessarily conventional. AKA: Jaime. Or young Robert. But that he's likely got that little something you can't put your finger on but which you absolutely know you want a bit of. 

Edited by The Weirwoods Eyes

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2 hours ago, Luddagain said:

OK

Obviously you are guys not girls.  Give you a little secret laddies - looks (face hair) are NOT especially attractive to older women - girls grow out of liking Justin Beiber at about 16.

What is attractive is strength - physical and mental - power and that odd combination of strength and kindness that is Jon to a tee. Jon is a strong boy (all that training), able to climb the wall, a bloody good swordsman for his age and a leader of men.  Every bloody girl for miles would like him. power is the aphrodisiac.

1

I assure you that I am most definitly a woman. a grown up mid thirties one at that. 

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Obviously Jon is not a golden haired good looker like Jaime. he looks like Ned. But Ned had very low personal self esteem (Brandon was the star in his family - sorta like Sansa/Arya). However Jon had grown up with Robb and did NOT think Robb better than him. He seemed to have more personal self esteem than Ned. Instantly he is more attractive

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Posted (edited)

I'm late to this thread, everyone can have their favorite character because of several reasons. Some like the underdog some like the hero some like the villain.  So we can debate that all day.  But there are some levels of truth on these characters.  Starting with Ned he has the doting father who tries to live up to his title by being a good lord.  He was never suppose to be the lord he wasn't raised to be lord but he accepted it and tried to be fair.  He didn't have the political head for southern politics maybe Brandon had that or was groomed for that.  His greatest victory and mistake was returning with baby Jon and raising as his own son and being his sole parent.  This action and the effect from this action will loom large on Jon, Robb, Cat and more than likely the realm of men.

Cat: Can be defined by her family words: family,duty,honor. Her family extended to the Tully's, Ned, all of her children.  Her family didn't include Jon.  She was cruel to Jon, no way to cut it she was cruel.  It is infered that she only used Jon's name once and the rest of the time called him bastard.  She felt guilty when Jon was sick and prayed to the seven but went against this oath.  She couldn't love a motherless child out of anger, hate, and protection of her true born children under the words of family duty honor that were branded in to her.  She took her anger she had for her lord husband and channeled it to an innocent child.  That is basically unforgivable. Stark children:

Robb:  The oldest and best mix of north and south, looks like the tullys tries to act like the Starks. Ned groomed him to lead in the north, Cat groomed him to participate in the south. His biggest fault is that he believed Ned was honorable eventhough he had a bastard.  Robb rationalized his love with Janyne that he didn't want to have a bastard so he married Jayne and forsaked his oath with Walder Frey. Ned's mistakes looms large with Robb and Jon's arc allowing them to make similar mistakes that Ned made choosing to believe Ned's siring a bastard son when more than likely he didn't.  

Jon: The main protagonist in the show and book, he seems to be what Griff was suppose to be. Instead of a fisherman he was bastard born treated like a stepchild from his cruel stepmother who wanted nothing to do with him. He was a motherless child. Wanted an honorable life felt like he had no choice but to go to the wall for that honor.  He defended the weak at the wall and beyond.  He did break his oath and showed some weakness with igreette. Ned's shadow looms large here as Ned retained his "honor" eventhough he sired a bastard.  Jon's growth from boy to man has shown him to be a honorable man who attempts to do the right thing.

Bran: young,kind and adventurous child who began to grow up with the tragedy of his fall.  He wanted to be a banner man and knight for his lordly brother.  Now has turned into an omnipresent character with a lot of power he is like a cheat code on a video game.  He has been branded with the stark honor and hopefully will not become an enemy to the realm of man.

Sansa: Every lord and lady's dream of how she their noble daughter should act. The definition of pure and innocence of her times.  Like most of Ned's children knew very little of Southern politics, her idea of the world is more from songs and stories that glourify Knights and their galant acts.  She is Cat part deux.  She was cruel to Jon growing up cause he was bastard born and her mother raised her in her image.  She shows potential in playing the game of southern politics and has some crafty and crooked teachers in Littlefinger and Cersi.  She is morphing into an important cyvasse piece.  Not evil or naturally cruel but has the capability of being a mean girl or benevolent.

Arya: More northern tempererment than the rest of Ned's children.  Personally I think she has the spirit of the north wild flower that blooms differently but that doesn't mean beautiful just different.  She embodies Lyanna's spirit and will.  I think from the tullys she gets that family duty honor sensibility which aids her journey of revenge. She refuses to be a victim like Sansa did early on.  Not built to be a lady unless that lady is Nymeria which ironically is the name off her wolf and her wolf's temperament.  I wonder will she leave revenge for a life of rest but I can't see a happy end for her in this story.

Rickon: place holder in the story grieving mother was not around however Robb and Maestor Llywin attempted to fill in.  He was becoming a wild child and shaggy dog reflected that.  We may learn more later but I doubt it.

 

Edited by Damein Blackfyre true king

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1 hour ago, Damein Blackfyre true king said:

I'm late to this thread, everyone can have their favorite character because of several reasons. Some like the underdog some like the hero some like the villain.  So we can debate that all day.  But there are some levels of truth on these characters.  Starting with Ned he has the doting father who tries to live up to his title by being a good lord.  He was never suppose to be the lord he wasn't raised to be lord but he accepted it and tried to be fair.  He didn't have the political head for southern politics maybe Brandon had that or was groomed for that.  His greatest victory and mistake was returning with baby Jon and raising as his own son and being his sole parent.  This action and the effect from this action will loom large on Jon, Robb, Cat and more than likely the realm of men.

Cat: Can be defined by her family words: family,duty,honor. Her family extended to the Tully's, Ned, all of her children.  Her family didn't include Jon.  She was cruel to Jon, no way to cut it she was cruel.  It is infered that she only used Jon's name once and the rest of the time called him bastard.  She felt guilty when Jon was sick and prayed to the seven but went against this oath.  She couldn't love a motherless child out of anger, hate, and protection of her true born children under the words of family duty honor that were branded in to her.  She took her anger she had for her lord husband and channeled it to an innocent child.  That is basically unforgivable. Stark children:

Robb:  The oldest and best mix of north and south, looks like the tullys tries to act like the Starks. Ned groomed him to lead in the north, Cat groomed him to participate in the south. His biggest fault is that he believed Ned was honorable eventhough he had a bastard.  Robb rationalized his love with Janyne that he didn't want to have a bastard so he married Jayne and forsaked his oath with Walder Frey. Ned's mistakes looms large with Robb and Jon's arc allowing them to make similar mistakes that Ned made choosing to believe Ned's siring a bastard son when more than likely he didn't.  

Jon: The main protagonist in the show and book, he seems to be what Griff was suppose to be. Instead of a fisherman he was bastard born treated like a stepchild from his cruel stepmother who wanted nothing to do with him. He was a motherless child. Wanted an honorable life felt like he had no choice but to go to the wall for that honor.  He defended the weak at the wall and beyond.  He did break his oath and showed some weakness with igreette. Ned's shadow looms large here as Ned retained his "honor" eventhough he sired a bastard.  Jon's growth from boy to man has shown him to be a honorable man who attempts to do the right thing.

Bran: young,kind and adventurous child who began to grow up with the tragedy of his fall.  He wanted to be a banner man and knight for his lordly brother.  Now has turned into an omnipresent character with a lot of power he is like a cheat code on a video game.  He has been branded with the stark honor and hopefully will not become an enemy to the realm of man.

Sansa: Every lord and lady's dream of how she their noble daughter should act. The definition of pure and innocence of her times.  Like most of Ned's children knew very little of Southern politics, her idea of the world is more from songs and stories that glourify Knights and their galant acts.  She is Cat part deux.  She was cruel to Jon growing up cause he was bastard born and her mother raised her in her image.  She shows potential in playing the game of southern politics and has some crafty and crooked teachers in Littlefinger and Cersi.  She is morphing into an important cyvasse piece.  Not evil or naturally cruel but has the capability of being a mean girl or benevolent.

Arya: More northern tempererment than the rest of Ned's children.  Personally I think she has the spirit of the north wild flower that blooms differently but that doesn't mean beautiful just different.  She embodies Lyanna's spirit and will.  I think from the tullys she gets that family duty honor sensibility which aids her journey of revenge. She refuses to be a victim like Sansa did early on.  Not built to be a lady unless that lady is Nymeria which ironically is the name off her wolf and her wolf's temperament.  I wonder will she leave revenge for a life of rest but I can't see a happy end for her in this story.

Rickon: place holder in the story grieving mother was not around however Robb and Maestor Llywin attempted to fill in.  He was becoming a wild child and shaggy dog reflected that.  We may learn more later but I doubt it.

 

 

You mentioned Sansa's poor treatment of Jon, but just ignored her bullying of Arya? 

Arya is built to be a Northern Lady like her aunt Lyanna. Considering everything she has been through, I would think her priorities would have changed drastically. You see how positively she responded to Lady Smallwood, and Arya even thinks she could be a Lady for her. That is just a reflection of what a positive female role model has on Arya. Similar hints of that can be found in Arya's bias for beautiful courtesans she seems to really appreciate. It would be worth considering why she seems more comfortable with that type of femininity over the Westerosi version that was forced upon her. Perhaps, she is just evolving her views due to her pending flowering, but as you mentioned, she is like her aunt Lyanna - a Blue WInter rose that blooms in Winter. 

As Arya has seen through Nymeria in ADWD... Winter has come to Westeros.

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On 3/14/2017 at 11:08 PM, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Here, here! I blame Brandon for the war more than Rhaegar. 

Whole threads discussing how Brandon was entitled to do what he did. Stab-myself-in-the-forehead-with-a-pen frustrating.

We know our author is a student of history, and surely he read up on House Tudor and how they dealt with dissenters, even nobles and clergymen.  Because as kings and queens, they had EVERY RIGHT to do so!

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8 hours ago, Aetta said:

Whole threads discussing how Brandon was entitled to do what he did. Stab-myself-in-the-forehead-with-a-pen frustrating.

We know our author is a student of history, and surely he read up on House Tudor and how they dealt with dissenters, even nobles and clergymen.  Because as kings and queens, they had EVERY RIGHT to do so!

He clearly should have acted less rashly, but are you seriously suggesting that Brandon should just have let his sister be raped?

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1 minute ago, Horse of Kent said:

He clearly should have acted less rashly, but are you seriously suggesting that Brandon should just have let his sister be raped?

I am seriously suggesting that you don't roll into the Crownlands and call out your Prince for a dual.  There are ways to air grievances in a feudal hierarchy, and that's not one of them.

Further, Brandon was not the Lord of Winterfell and thus had no standing to address the King in any such manner.  His father should have been the one to do that.

Finally, do tell-what do you think Tywin would've done if Brandon called out his children? What do you think the Martells would've done? Do you think ANY house would put up with some non-Lord coming to their doorstep talking much shit about their heir? 

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4 minutes ago, Aetta said:

I am seriously suggesting that you don't roll into the Crownlands and call out your Prince for a dual.  There are ways to air grievances in a feudal hierarchy, and that's not one of them.

Further, Brandon was not the Lord of Winterfell and thus had no standing to address the King in any such manner.  His father should have been the one to do that.

Finally, do tell-what do you think Tywin would've done if Brandon called out his children? What do you think the Martells would've done? Do you think ANY house would put up with some non-Lord coming to their doorstep talking much shit about their heir? 

As I said, Brandon acted rashly. But this was not the time to air once grievances in the manner specified by the feudal hierarchy. That system was smashed to pieces, when for all intents and purposes the heir to the throne kidnapped and raped the daughter of the warden of the North and betrothed of another Lord Paramount.

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24 minutes ago, Horse of Kent said:

As I said, Brandon acted rashly. But this was not the time to air once grievances in the manner specified by the feudal hierarchy. That system was smashed to pieces, when for all intents and purposes the heir to the throne kidnapped and raped the daughter of the warden of the North and betrothed of another Lord Paramount.

Let's put things into perspective:  Robert and Brandon may have been the only ones who believed Lyanna was being raped.  We don't have substantial proof that anyone else believed that...and in fact we have some suggestion that Ned does NOT think Lyanna was being raped and that Targ loyalists, who were many and more around the realm at that time, believe R+L was a love story.

I think GRRM wants us to know, through Ned's POV, that Brandon was chock full 'o reckless abandon-as was Lyanna-and that got them both killed.  That Aerys stacked the deck at their trial is one thing, but that there was a trial is completely another.

There is also something to be said for timing and planning, neither of which Brandon thought of.  That is, if we recall Aerys's treatment of Joanna Lannister, we might say that Tywin should have confronted him as Brandon did.  But ah, Tywin was far more calculated than that.  And Tywin, unlike Brandon, lived to see Aerys's death.

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22 minutes ago, Aetta said:

Let's put things into perspective:  Robert and Brandon may have been the only ones who believed Lyanna was being raped.  We don't have substantial proof that anyone else believed that...and in fact we have some suggestion that Ned does NOT think Lyanna was being raped and that Targ loyalists, who were many and more around the realm at that time, believe R+L was a love story.

You are literally rewriting the story to make Brandon the villain now. It is quite clear that the consensus is Lyanna was taken against her will. That is what Bran believes - "Robert was betrothed to marry her, but Prince Rhaegar carried her off and raped her," and is the logical assumption given the known series of events. Of course through Ned, we have a better understanding, but he was with Lyanna as she died. It doesn't take a genius to work out what might have been said then.

The bullshit Dany was fed as a child has no weight either. She was even given the impression that her father was a wise and noble king. Her lackeys would never acknowledge that a Targ could ever be in the wrong about something.

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On 3/17/2017 at 2:25 AM, Lollygag said:

I'm a girl.

My problem is with the argument that Jon is attractive in a pretty way, like book Jaime or Kit, which has been asserted by others and is in conflict with the text which states that he's plain.

I completely agree that Jon may be quite attractive in a rugged way, especially for women who don't go for pretty men. But everyone has different tastes, so generalizing that every girl would go for Jon or any guy isn't accurate at all.

You mention his strengths, so I'll list his negatives for the record: he's still average looking with a lean build, prone to berserker rages, is only a great swordsman in contrast to his fellow-Watchmen who've had little or no training, is such a great leader that he got murdered for his efforts, and isn't generally known as charismatic or charming.

I think Jon is physically attractive and charismatic. 

A lot of characters are drawn to him and that's most likely because of his personality. 

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Jon is actually the second most-hated Stark, behind Sansa. 

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3 hours ago, Horse of Kent said:

You are literally rewriting the story to make Brandon the villain now. It is quite clear that the consensus is Lyanna was taken against her will. That is what Bran believes - "Robert was betrothed to marry her, but Prince Rhaegar carried her off and raped her," and is the logical assumption given the known series of events. Of course through Ned, we have a better understanding, but he was with Lyanna as she died. It doesn't take a genius to work out what might have been said then.

The bullshit Dany was fed as a child has no weight either. She was even given the impression that her father was a wise and noble king. Her lackeys would never acknowledge that a Targ could ever be in the wrong about something.

It does not take re-writing the story to make Brandon look like the hot-headed dumbass he was. Hoster Tully, not the nicest guy himself, was upset about Brandon's actions and referred to him as a gallant fool. 

Rhaegar's abduction of Lyanna could not have been the first time a woman was taken by someone who had no right to her. As a matter of fact we know that an Arryn girl was taken by one of the mountain clans in the Vale. While they never found the Arryn girl, in Lyanna's case recompense could have been demanded, and likely would have been given, without starting a war. 

Brandon did not go looking for recompense. He didn't even ask for his sister back. He went into the Red Keep screaming for Rhaegar to "come out and die." That is high treason. It doesn't matter how upset he was. It doesn't matter how he thought Lyanna was being treated. He committed high treason in the castle of an insane king whose favorite entertainment was burning people with magical fire! That is the absolute stupidest thing anyone could possibly have done!

It's also pretty stupid to think Rhaegar would be keeping her in King's Landing. Brandon does not stop to think, to consider, to analyze. He goes off half-cocked and screws everything up for everybody else. It's a damn lucky thing that Lyanna was beyond Aerys' reach or Brandon's actions might have gotten her killed too.

Aetta made no mention of the BS Dany was fed. As to the lackeys, what lackeys? They only had lackeys for a few years, and then the lackeys they had stole from them after Willem Darry died. Everything she knows she learned from Viserys, and we can assume a good deal of it was wrong, but that's not what Aetta was talking about. Barristan implies in his private thoughts that it was a love story. He's not sugar-coating things for the queen in his thoughts.

Robert thinks Lyanna was raped. Brandon thought so. The kids have heard stories from people who don't know a thing, and you can bet their father doesn't talk about that so all they have is rumors from the ignorant. But no one else in the story puts it that way. Ned doesn't. Catelyn doesn't. Cersei doesn't. Barristan doesn't. Jaime doesn't. Tywin doesn't. Oberyn doesn't. Doran doesn't. Littlefinger doesn't. Varys doesn't. The people who were alive during the events do not make any particular Rhaegar-the-rapist judgments...only Robert does because he can't even bear to imagine that Lyanna might have been willing. 

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