Why is Jon Snow the favourite Stark (usually)?

[Philokles]

1 hour ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

It does not take re-writing the story to make Brandon look like the hot-headed dumbass he was. Hoster Tully, not the nicest guy himself, was upset about Brandon's actions and referred to him as a gallant fool.

As I said, he acted rashly.

 

1 hour ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Rhaegar's abduction of Lyanna could not have been the first time a woman was taken by someone who had no right to her. As a matter of fact we know that an Arryn girl was taken by one of the mountain clans in the Vale. While they never found the Arryn girl, in Lyanna's case recompense could have been demanded, and likely would have been given, without starting a war.

And you think that the Arryns just let her be taken, made no effort to get her back and get retribution?

There is no recompense short of Rhaegar's head on a platter that would be fitting. The sensible move would have been to return North and call the banners. Effectively leading to the same war as actually happened but with Rickard and Brandon leading the Northern forces instead of/along with Ned.

 

1 hour ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Brandon did not go looking for recompense. He didn't even ask for his sister back. He went into the Red Keep screaming for Rhaegar to "come out and die." That is high treason. It doesn't matter how upset he was. It doesn't matter how he thought Lyanna was being treated. He committed high treason in the castle of an insane king whose favorite entertainment was burning people with magical fire! That is the absolute stupidest thing anyone could possibly have done!

What do you think he wanted Rhaegar dead for? That was the only recompense that would come close to satisfaction for his crime. I'm sure in Brandon's mind he was planning to take Lyanna home, if she still lived, once he was finished with Rhaegar.

 

1 hour ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

It's also pretty stupid to think Rhaegar would be keeping her in King's Landing. Brandon does not stop to think, to consider, to analyze. He goes off half-cocked and screws everything up for everybody else. It's a damn lucky thing that Lyanna was beyond Aerys' reach or Brandon's actions might have gotten her killed too.

Yes, he isn't the sharpest tool in the box.

 

1 hour ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Aetta made no mention of the BS Dany was fed. As to the lackeys, what lackeys? They only had lackeys for a few years, and then the lackeys they had stole from them after Willem Darry died. Everything she knows she learned from Viserys, and we can assume a good deal of it was wrong, but that's not what Aetta was talking about. Barristan implies in his private thoughts that it was a love story. He's not sugar-coating things for the queen in his thoughts.

Darry, Jorah, etc and the opinions they solidified in Viserys' head.

If you are thinking of the Barristan quote that I think you are it only says Rhaegar loved Lyanna, not Lyanna loved Rhaegar.

 

1 hour ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Robert thinks Lyanna was raped. Brandon thought so. The kids have heard stories from people who don't know a thing, and you can bet their father doesn't talk about that so all they have is rumors from the ignorant. But no one else in the story puts it that way. Ned doesn't. Catelyn doesn't. Cersei doesn't. Barristan doesn't. Jaime doesn't. Tywin doesn't. Oberyn doesn't. Doran doesn't. Littlefinger doesn't. Varys doesn't. The people who were alive during the events do not make any particular Rhaegar-the-rapist judgments...only Robert does because he can't even bear to imagine that Lyanna might have been willing. 

Exactly. The consensus from those who don't know better is that Rhaegar raped Lyanna. Very few of those on that list of yours think about Lyanna and Rhaegar altogether on page, and even fewer about whether Lyanna was willing or not.

[Aetta]

5 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

 

Aetta made no mention of the BS Dany was fed. As to the lackeys, what lackeys? They only had lackeys for a few years, and then the lackeys they had stole from them after Willem Darry died. Everything she knows she learned from Viserys, and we can assume a good deal of it was wrong, but that's not what Aetta was talking about. Barristan implies in his private thoughts that it was a love story. He's not sugar-coating things for the queen in his thoughts.

Robert thinks Lyanna was raped. Brandon thought so. The kids have heard stories from people who don't know a thing, and you can bet their father doesn't talk about that so all they have is rumors from the ignorant. But no one else in the story puts it that way. Ned doesn't. Catelyn doesn't. Cersei doesn't. Barristan doesn't. Jaime doesn't. Tywin doesn't. Oberyn doesn't. Doran doesn't. Littlefinger doesn't. Varys doesn't. The people who were alive during the events do not make any particular Rhaegar-the-rapist judgments...only Robert does because he can't even bear to imagine that Lyanna might have been willing. 

Snipped by me, though what I snipped of your post=also brilliant.

I'll push the envelope even further....had Rhaegar actually kidnapped and raped Lyanna, Brandon Stark STILL had no standing to threaten the Prince's life.  Brandon's actions threatened the whole of the North, a kingdom that Lyanna, as a woman, was not even seen fit to rule in favor of a man.

I think what we're confusing lies in perspective.  We can ALL understand Brandon's outrage, even is it was based in a really really faulty assumption.  Are we fundamentally understanding Aerys's duty to protect his issue and his Seven Kingdoms from some punk that saunters in and threatens his rulers?

For the record, I never called Brandon a villian.  I called him lots of things, but a villain I did not.  I think he was impulsive to his own detriment and could have never known the utter devastation that his actions affected.  In his mind, he wasn't trying to usurp the throne.  IN AERYS'S MIND, HE WAS.  

GRRM>>>student of history.  Mary Stuart never threatened EIR's life.  But her actions were of substantial enough threat that the throne had to act.  Further, Mary was seen as a liability in her homeland, and if we take what little we have from Northern POVs, we see that Brandon Stark was gaining quite the rep as a Wild Wolf.  Is that a healthy moniker for a future Lord?  I think our author wanted to let us know that this kid needed a double dose of Ritalin.

 

 

[Aetta]

3 hours ago, Horse of Kent said:

 

There is no recompense short of Rhaegar's head on a platter that would be fitting. The sensible move would have been to return North and call the banners. Effectively leading to the same war as actually happened but with Rickard and Brandon leading the Northern forces instead of/along with Ned.

 

 

Oh....my.  This was not a Dornish princess.  It was the third born DAUGHTER of Rickard Stark.  Sure, if an Umber "raped" her, then Rickard-I repeat, Rickard-should have his head.  But the 2nd in line for the Iron Throne-that is, the defacto Commander in Chief of tens if not hundreds of thousands of forces-head on a platter or calling the banners?  I am sorry to be so callous but as to point out that her virtue was just not that valuable. 

The banners were ultimately called because the Lords Paramount of the North and Stormlands (and the Vale, really) were directly threatened with death-we're comparing that to "assault" of a girl with no real claim to anything?

[Aetta]

3 hours ago, Horse of Kent said:

Exactly. The consensus from those who don't know better is that Rhaegar raped Lyanna. Very few of those on that list of yours think about Lyanna and Rhaegar altogether on page, and even fewer about whether Lyanna was willing or not.

I will infer that Oberyn was not pissed off that Rhaegar raped someone, he was pissed off that his sister was set aside. I will infer that neither Jorah nor Barristan thought Rhaegar was a rapist, as the author has every opportunity to write that into their conversations with Dany....they did tell Dany that Aerys was a jerk face. I will infer that Jaime doesn't believe Rhaegar was a rapist, based on his memories of him in KL and his desperation to join Rhaegar at the Trident, whereas he cleary hated Aerys raping Rhaella. I will infer that Jon Connington doesn't think Rhaegar was a rapist.  And I will infer, at the very least, that Houses Tyrell, Velaryon, Blackwood, Tarly, etc etc etc didn't see Lyanna as being important enough for them to foresake their Prince & King.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

Jon Con was just pissed Rhaegar didn't run off with him. He thought every woman (and man for that matter) in the Seven Kingdoms was in love with his Silver Prince. However history is written by the victors as they say. To infer that Lyanna willingly ran off with Rhaegar would be an insult to House Stark and more importantly to the King, Robert.

[Philokles]

12 hours ago, Aetta said:

Oh....my.  This was not a Dornish princess.  It was the third born DAUGHTER of Rickard Stark.  Sure, if an Umber "raped" her, then Rickard-I repeat, Rickard-should have his head.  But the 2nd in line for the Iron Throne-that is, the defacto Commander in Chief of tens if not hundreds of thousands of forces-head on a platter or calling the banners?  I am sorry to be so callous but as to point out that her virtue was just not that valuable. 

The banners were ultimately called because the Lords Paramount of the North and Stormlands (and the Vale, really) were directly threatened with death-we're comparing that to "assault" of a girl with no real claim to anything?

You seriously believe that the rape of a daughter of one of the most important people in the Kingdom is no big deal? Laughable. As history proved, pissing off the Starks and their allies had the potential to bring down the Targs.

If the value of a female relative was that small, it is strange that there a handful of examples that I can think of just off the top of my head where justice became their brothers' main objective in life, regardless of the perpetrator's relative status. You tell Oberyn, Doran, Jon and Wyman that their sisters/cousins lives mean nothing.

 

12 hours ago, Aetta said:

I will infer that Oberyn was not pissed off that Rhaegar raped someone, he was pissed off that his sister was set aside. I will infer that neither Jorah nor Barristan thought Rhaegar was a rapist, as the author has every opportunity to write that into their conversations with Dany....they did tell Dany that Aerys was a jerk face. I will infer that Jaime doesn't believe Rhaegar was a rapist, based on his memories of him in KL and his desperation to join Rhaegar at the Trident, whereas he cleary hated Aerys raping Rhaella. I will infer that Jon Connington doesn't think Rhaegar was a rapist.  And I will infer, at the very least, that Houses Tyrell, Velaryon, Blackwood, Tarly, etc etc etc didn't see Lyanna as being important enough for them to foresake their Prince & King.

Most of those people couldn't care less about Lyanna Stark. Those that would met Rhaegar on his return from the ToJ.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

21 hours ago, Horse of Kent said:

As I said, he acted rashly.

And you think that the Arryns just let her be taken, made no effort to get her back and get retribution?

There is no recompense short of Rhaegar's head on a platter that would be fitting. The sensible move would have been to return North and call the banners. Effectively leading to the same war as actually happened but with Rickard and Brandon leading the Northern forces instead of/along with Ned.

What do you think he wanted Rhaegar dead for? That was the only recompense that would come close to satisfaction for his crime. I'm sure in Brandon's mind he was planning to take Lyanna home, if she still lived, once he was finished with Rhaegar.

Yes, he isn't the sharpest tool in the box.

Darry, Jorah, etc and the opinions they solidified in Viserys' head.

If you are thinking of the Barristan quote that I think you are it only says Rhaegar loved Lyanna, not Lyanna loved Rhaegar.

Exactly. The consensus from those who don't know better is that Rhaegar raped Lyanna. Very few of those on that list of yours think about Lyanna and Rhaegar altogether on page, and even fewer about whether Lyanna was willing or not.

Rashly would be going to Aerys and demanding anything when Brandon had no standing to demand anything. What he did was way beyond rash. Even if Aerys had been sane, what Brandon did was monumentally stupid.

I'm sure the Arryn's did try to get her back, but they apparently did not do so in a manner that ended up with their house all but extinct.

Execution is not the standard medieval punishment for rape. The sensible move would have been to return to the North and leave the issue in Rickard's hands as Rickard was the one with the authority to demand his daughter's return and recompense for any harm done her. Rickard, unlike Brandon, would not have demanded Rhaegar's death.

As to recompense, the loss of her virginity could be considered made right, in a way, by the payment of an amount equal to her dowry, or greater. Another possibility would be Rhaegar being forced to take Lyanna as a second wife, and while not an ideal situation it could certainly be arranged. He couldn't have anymore children by Elia and the High Septon would take that into account along with the fact that no one would fault Rhaegar for wanting or requiring a second son. The heir and the spare is an extremely old custom, with solid reasoning behind it. 

My point on Barristan being that no man rapes a woman he loves. A one-sided love story is still a love story...just a rather pathetic one.

You missed something with my list. None of those people think of Rhaegar as the kind of egocentric, power-hungry, asshole who would rape a woman. If he forced Lyanna he would force someone else. He'd possibly have a history. Even if he didn't in general "seem" like an asshole, there would be someone who thought something was off with that guy--not those closest too him as they'd be blinded by their own affection and loyalty, but human nature would have someone saying in retrospect "I always knew there was something not quite right with that guy," even if they hadn't known any such thing. We get ZERO characters doing that.

18 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Jon Con was just pissed Rhaegar didn't run off with him. He thought every woman (and man for that matter) in the Seven Kingdoms was in love with his Silver Prince. However history is written by the victors as they say. To infer that Lyanna willingly ran off with Rhaegar would be an insult to House Stark and more importantly to the King, Robert.

Insult or not, it's 50% likely to be the case.

The fact remains that only Brandon and Robert think of Rhaegar as being willing to harm anyone, and Lyanna in particular.

Brandon thinking that would either stem from his knowing something about Rhaegar that literally no one else knew (unlikely), or thinking about what he would do if he kidnapped a girl (possible), or being told that his sister was in danger...and the only person I can think of who would have done that is one Brandon should have known better than to trust (50/50 and that would be Littlefinger).

We all know why Robert thought it.

And anyway she could have gone unwillingly and still not been remotely harmed.

[Aetta]

5 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Rashly would be going to Aerys and demanding anything when Brandon had no standing to demand anything. What he did was way beyond rash. Even if Aerys had been sane, what Brandon did was monumentally stupid.

I'm sure the Arryn's did try to get her back, but they apparently did not do so in a manner that ended up with their house all but extinct.

Execution is not the standard medieval punishment for rape. The sensible move would have been to return to the North and leave the issue in Rickard's hands as Rickard was the one with the authority to demand his daughter's return and recompense for any harm done her. Rickard, unlike Brandon, would not have demanded Rhaegar's death.

As to recompense, the loss of her virginity could be considered made right, in a way, by the payment of an amount equal to her dowry, or greater. Another possibility would be Rhaegar being forced to take Lyanna as a second wife, and while not an ideal situation it could certainly be arranged. He couldn't have anymore children by Elia and the High Septon would take that into account along with the fact that no one would fault Rhaegar for wanting or requiring a second son. The heir and the spare is an extremely old custom, with solid reasoning behind it. 

My point on Barristan being that no man rapes a woman he loves. A one-sided love story is still a love story...just a rather pathetic one.

You missed something with my list. None of those people think of Rhaegar as the kind of egocentric, power-hungry, asshole who would rape a woman. If he forced Lyanna he would force someone else. He'd possibly have a history. Even if he didn't in general "seem" like an asshole, there would be someone who thought something was off with that guy--not those closest too him as they'd be blinded by their own affection and loyalty, but human nature would have someone saying in retrospect "I always knew there was something not quite right with that guy," even if they hadn't known any such thing. We get ZERO characters doing that.

Insult or not, it's 50% likely to be the case.

The fact remains that only Brandon and Robert think of Rhaegar as being willing to harm anyone, and Lyanna in particular.

Brandon thinking that would either stem from his knowing something about Rhaegar that literally no one else knew (unlikely), or thinking about what he would do if he kidnapped a girl (possible), or being told that his sister was in danger...and the only person I can think of who would have done that is one Brandon should have known better than to trust (50/50 and that would be Littlefinger).

We all know why Robert thought it.

And anyway she could have gone unwillingly and still not been remotely harmed.

I shall give thanks and praise for the lovely Tony Teflon addressing our argument in a video tonight.  He lays out a succinct and concise argument to back up my original post on this thread:  Brandon Stark is the poster boy for how NOT to air grievances.

Never did get around to seriously answering the thread topic:  Jon Snow is the favorite Stark b/c GRRM wrote his character to be just that, and admits that he wrote the Starks in as his protagonists.  Jon is the Ponyboy Curtis of our story.

My favorite Stark is Bran b/c I think his abilities are the driver for the end game.  

I liked Sodapop because Rob Lowe.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

On 13/3/2017 at 10:09 PM, Darkstream said:

Wow, you really do have trouble comprehending what people say to you. I'll try again.

I'm sorry, but you don't have the right to tell me what I'm allowed to respond to on a public forum. Like I said, if you cannot handle the scrutiny that comes with posting inaccurate and bias comments, then you shouldn't post them on a public discussion board.

I never said anything rude or inappropriate to you. If you find the truth, and getting called out on your bs offensive, that is your issue, not mine.

The only time you have responded me was in order to attack me without reading what I have written. For you it might not be offensive but for me it is. 

And since you don't like what I think there is no reason why you should quote or refer to me.

[Darkstream]

13 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

The only time you have responded me was in order to attack me without reading what I have written. For you it might not be offensive but for me it is. 

And since you don't like what I think there is no reason why you should quote or refer to me.

Please stop it already. You are not some poor victim, and I never attacked you. I simply pointed out that what you want to represent as fact, is only your bias opinions and wishes. If you don't want to be called out on such things, I suggest that you consider the content and wording of your comments before you post them.

Look, I have no desire to attack or offend you. Yes, I usually only respond to posts that I disagree with. If I responded to every post that I liked or did agree with, I would have a substantially higher post count then even you have.

I think you are a valuable member of these forums, and have come across many of your posts in the past, which I consider to be very well thought out, intelligent, and insightfull comments. Unfortunately, and what is frustrating for me to read, is that when it comes to Jon, and anything that effects him, you tend to let your bias influence your thoughts, and throw all reason out the window.

I sincerely hope that we can both act like mature adults, and move past this.

[King Ned Stark]

From a writer that is well known for his "unreliable narrotor" POV's, why do we take it as fact that Brandon did indeed ride into Kings Landing "shouting for Rhaegar to come out and die"?

The only person who says this is a drunken Jaime remembering a fifteen year old memory of when he was a sixteen year old.  He also seemed to have more than a bit of envy for Rhaegar and Ned, why couldn't this extend to Brandon?  Perhaps that is what he dreams about doing to someone who (Robert) dishonors his sister.  Or perhaps it was Targaryen propaganda to roll up the Stark alliance.

Not saying that isn't how it went down, I just don't count it as fact.

It seems little, if anything, from the past actually happened the way Westerosi remember or say it did.

[Bhotharh]

I think it stems partly from introductory character bias (compare butterbumps!'s Thread on the readers' perception of Sansa and Ned in AGOT):

• In the very first chapter we see him convince Ned to let his siblings keep the direwolf pups, all the while drawing attention to his loathed status as the bastard.
• His interactions with his siblings and his uncle show that he genuinely loves his family.
• Bran and Arya look up to him.
• He is one of the underdogs, and don't we all love to root for those?
• After being called out on his bullying by Donal Noye he comes off his high horse and actively tries to befriend the other recruits.

By then he is firmly established as one of the good guys. If somewhat brooding, he is nevertheless a nice and smart boy who knows how to argue a point to the benefit of his friends (Sam) and family. He is less judgemental than Ned, Cat and Sansa. He heeds the advise of reasonable authority figures, as opposed to Arya. Even though he is as capable, respected and well loved (by almost all) as Robb, his path in life is nowhere as clear.

Other reasons might be:

• The reader is more interested in the plot on and beyond the Wall than the politics of the south.
• He stays at the Wall. There are no drastic changes where a whole new scenery with another trillion characters is thrown our way (the Vale, Braavos).
• His direwolf ist different from the other pups. He is probably half a Targaryen. He could be TPTWP. Mystery!
• His surviving siblings are children. Maybe it is easier for adult readers to relate to characters who are more or less grown ups (in universe).
• He is a POV character, it is easier to like and love those. I wonder who would be in the lead if we had Robb's POV.
• He is Lord Snow and he knows how to kiss.

 

[Lord Lannister]

So yet another "why don't people like what I do" thread? Le sigh.

[Darkstream]

14 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

So yet another "why don't people like what I do" thread? Le sigh.

A thread that is eight pages long. It seems that people enjoy discussing this, and like the thread. You don't like these threads, fine, no need to click on them and post hypocritical comments.

[Lord Lannister]

1 hour ago, Darkstream said:

A thread that is eight pages long. It seems that people enjoy discussing this, and like the thread. You don't like these threads, fine, no need to click on them and post hypocritical comments.

Please, explain how my comment is hypocritical.

[Darkstream]

31 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

Please, explain how my comment is hypocritical.

Isn't it obvious? Your bitching about people liking something that you don't. While using the phrase "why don't people like what I do", to do so.

And for the record, I somewhat agree with your sentiment on this matter, but respect others people's right to indulge in these types of threads if they so choose.

[ravenous reader]

On 3/25/2017 at 1:58 PM, Darkstream said:

Unfortunately, and what is frustrating for me to read, is that when it comes to Jon, and anything that effects him, you tend to let your bias influence your thoughts, and throw all reason out the window.

The duel continues...

Maybe you should rather discuss why Robert Baratheon is a coward...

[Darkstream]

1 hour ago, ravenous reader said:

The duel continues...

Maybe you should rather discuss why Robert Baratheon is a coward...

Sure, because I don't believe that his reasons for wanting to assassanate Danny where utilitarian, I feel like he was afraid of the threat that was facing him personally.

And if you're implying that I have a bais against Robert, I don't. I am a big fan of his character, but don't let that sway what I think are his motives.

[ravenous reader]

1 minute ago, Darkstream said:

Because I don't believe that his reasons for wanting to assassanate Danny where utilitarian, I feel like he was afraid of the threat that was facing him personally.

And if you're implying that I have a bais against Robert, I don't. I am a big fan of his character.

OK.  No need to get defensive; I was just pulling your legs.

That's a good development -- finally you and and your favorite opponent will have something to agree on!

[Darkstream]

Just now, ravenous reader said:

OK.  No need to get defensive; I was just pulling your legs.

I know, I didn't mean to come of as defensive. Just explaining myself. 

Just now, ravenous reader said:

That's a good development -- finally you and and your favorite opponent will have something to agree on!