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Tywin's last smile


King Ragnar

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I see no need to sum up the endless evidence that Oberyn poisoned Tywin because obviously you've all read them over and over again. I would just like to add 1 new piece of evidence which I've seen nowhere. 

Tywin's mysterious smile during Jamie's wake is something that made me wonder if it had any significance towards his cause of death. As a result I searched the forums and the internet to find some sort of explanation but I've never found one. Until now. I stumbled upon a poisonous plant (in the real world) called "The Hemlock Water Dropwort'. This plant apparently leaves the victim with a smile on their face.

Could this be the poison Oberyn used?

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21 minutes ago, The Mountain That Flies said:

Does your plant cause bowel issues? The evidence supports this as being the main effect of Oberyn's poison, so if there's a link you could have an argument.

IIRC, Tywin's smile was speculated by Jamie to have been caused by his skin deteriorating quickly, pulling his lips back as it recedes.

There are a few symptoms that align with bowel distress: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oenanthotoxin

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2 hours ago, The Mountain That Flies said:

Does your plant cause bowel issues? The evidence supports this as being the main effect of Oberyn's poison, so if there's a link you could have an argument.

IIRC, Tywin's smile was speculated by Jamie to have been caused by his skin deteriorating quickly, pulling his lips back as it recedes.

It would likely be a magical, Westerosi equivalent so it very well could cause bowel issues.

Awesome find, King Ragnar!

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Poor Tywin.  All he needed was Taco Bell, or the Westerosi equivalent.  The perfect food for when you're hungry, but you're also constipated.  That poison would be rendered useless by the soy/meat/grease power of the Bell.

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3 hours ago, LindsayLohan said:

Poor Tywin.  All he needed was Taco Bell, or the Westerosi equivalent.  The perfect food for when you're hungry, but you're also constipated.  That poison would be rendered useless by the soy/meat/grease power of the Bell.

And a couple packets of fire sauce. 

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Interesting find King Ragnar , its possible  this "Hemlock Water Dropwort" might have influenced GRRM when creating poisons.

I'm a believer in that Tywins bowel trouble was caused by poison , but i never questioned Tywins smile and put it down to decay.

But it does make sense that Oberyn would use a poison which would have this effect , further humiliating Tywin at his own funeral.

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A couple weeks ago I was looking for something and found a part of the text about Tywin's secret smile that only Cersei ever saw. Not sure how accurate that was though since it was in a Cersei chapter.

Well everyone saw this smile so it was no secret. It's certainly ironic that the man who only smiled a few times in life--discounting any secret smiles--is permanently smiley in death. GRRM does love his irony.

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2 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

A couple weeks ago I was looking for something and found a part of the text about Tywin's secret smile that only Cersei ever saw. Not sure how accurate that was though since it was in a Cersei chapter.

I got the impression that only she saw it because it wasn't actually there. ;) As you say, it was her POV, and she did seem to recreate him in her own image after he was too dead to disregard her or be unimpressed with her. 

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It's a shame we'll never know for sure though, I don't think GRRM will ever further explain the circumstances of Tywin's death.

Although in my head it's almost a given that Oberyn poisoned him, eventually with Hemlock Water Dropwort.

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54 minutes ago, King Ragnar said:

It's a shame we'll never know for sure though, I don't think GRRM will ever further explain the circumstances of Tywin's death.

Although in my head it's almost a given that Oberyn poisoned him, eventually with Hemlock Water Dropwort.

Do you happen to know what GRRM has already said about Tywin's death? Just curious. Thanks! :) 

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As per my usual, I will simply point out that it is much more likely Varys poisoned him.  Basilisk blood was stolen from Pycelle before Oberyn ever got to the city, and Pycelle describes it, and its symptoms clearly align with Tywins.

Remember Varys line to Kevan "someone will find a way to blame the Dornish"  or something like that.

Tywin would have been on his guard with Oberyn, yes they had 1 meeting, but since Tywin was the host Oberyn would not have had previous access to the drinks served.  Varys on the other hand controls the cup bearers as we again see in Kevans epilogue, and last again Kevans epilogue proves that Varys would've wanted Tywin dead.

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15 hours ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

As per my usual, I will simply point out that it is much more likely Varys poisoned him.  Basilisk blood was stolen from Pycelle before Oberyn ever got to the city, and Pycelle describes it, and its symptoms clearly align with Tywins.

Remember Varys line to Kevan "someone will find a way to blame the Dornish"  or something like that.

Tywin would have been on his guard with Oberyn, yes they had 1 meeting, but since Tywin was the host Oberyn would not have had previous access to the drinks served.  Varys on the other hand controls the cup bearers as we again see in Kevans epilogue, and last again Kevans epilogue proves that Varys would've wanted Tywin dead.

The poison itself wouldn't have to have been the cause of death. Those crossbow quarrels did the job nicely. The poison could just be a nice bonus, an easter egg if you will. 

Remember that Tyrion poisoned Cersei but not to kill her, only to get her out of the way for a while. Oberyn could easily have decided to make Tywin uncomfortable without actually trying to kill him. 

OR he could have decided to use a slow-acting poison (with Varys as an accomplice perhaps?) so that by the time Tywin died Oberyn would either be out of the city or dead in Tyrion's trial. After all, who would connect a dead man, or a man who hadn't been there in weeks with Lord Tywin's death? 

Tyrion shooting him makes it a moot point, but it's still fun to speculate. And part of me likes the idea that Tywin was already a "dead man" when Tyrion killed him. 

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10 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

The poison itself wouldn't have to have been the cause of death. Those crossbow quarrels did the job nicely. The poison could just be a nice bonus, an easter egg if you will. 

Remember that Tyrion poisoned Cersei but not to kill her, only to get her out of the way for a while. Oberyn could easily have decided to make Tywin uncomfortable without actually trying to kill him. 

OR he could have decided to use a slow-acting poison (with Varys as an accomplice perhaps?) so that by the time Tywin died Oberyn would either be out of the city or dead in Tyrion's trial. After all, who would connect a dead man, or a man who hadn't been there in weeks with Lord Tywin's death? 

Tyrion shooting him makes it a moot point, but it's still fun to speculate. And part of me likes the idea that Tywin was already a "dead man" when Tyrion killed him. 

I know some people think Varys wanted Tyrion to kill Tywin, but I think that he simply didn't care since Oberyn was dead and just as you say people wouldn't jump to the conclusion that a dead man did the deed. Had Tywin died of a poisoning while Oberyn was in the city though... Makes Dorne a lot more likely to declare for Aegon if the Iron Throne has already declared war on them.  Basically I think his first plan got ruined when Oberyn died so Varys just decided "whatever".

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15 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

I know some people think Varys wanted Tyrion to kill Tywin, but I think that he simply didn't care since Oberyn was dead and just as you say people wouldn't jump to the conclusion that a dead man did the deed. Had Tywin died of a poisoning while Oberyn was in the city though... Makes Dorne a lot more likely to declare for Aegon if the Iron Throne has already declared war on them.  Basically I think his first plan got ruined when Oberyn died so Varys just decided "whatever".

That makes sense. And Varys did try to get Tyrion to just leave instead of going to confront Tywin.

I get a kick out of the idea of Varys actually saying that. Maybe with an eye roll. :D

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