Football - Leicester's Shakespearean Tragedy

[Lord Friendzone]

Obviously a lot of people hate this idea of Wenger staying for one more year but if people like Tuchel, Sampaoli and others do not want to go to Arsenalů after this season. What else should Arsenal board do?

Wenger is for sure a stubborn man who wants to go with the bang and not like this. I don't blame him. for this. One more year is a reasonable idea and it allows transition to be smooth for other coach. Because currently the next coach got more work to do then Conte or Mourinho. New coach=new fresh ideas but Arsenal can also end up in the situation like Man Utd, years of out of top 4. I can also understand fans frustrations of not competing and wanting to win some big trophies. As long as this is really a one year deal, I think this is a reasonable idea. Fans will protest even more and it wil bring more toxic atmosphere to the stands.

18 minutes ago, baxus said:

That's once again because there is no one outside of the starting eleven to offer anything else.

If you have Coutinho, Firmino, Mane, Sturridge and Origi in your offense, you don't get much variation in the style of play. Every once in a while you just need a big and strong centre forward to shake things up a bit and catch opponents on the wrong foot.

I'm not saying Liverpool needs to sing a Duncan Ferguson kind of player, but they do need players who can execute an alternative gameplan once plan A is not working. Parking the bus is a legitimate tactics and the title contending team must be prepared to play against it, just as they must have a response to any unfavourable tactics from their opponents.

We almost won the title with Suarez, Sturridge attack. While I agree variety of options is good to have but also depends on quality. Mane, Coutinho are not striker. Our success always depended on top class strikers. We always had someone from Ian St. John days, Rushie, Beardsley, Fowler, Owen, to Torres and Suarez. Firmino is ideal for Klopp's style but he lack that cutting edge Suarez or others had. Sturridge barely plays and is kinda of selfish which Klopp does not tolerate. Origi is a decent alternative but not a focal point.

As long as we don't have a top class striker, solid defence and a lack of depth. Rumours or Dembele are nice and he would add something different. I'm looking at Morata, Lacazette or even cheeky bid for Aguero. Depends on his situation. 

[Mark Antony]

1 hour ago, baxus said:

That's once again because there is no one outside of the starting eleven to offer anything else.

If you have Coutinho, Firmino, Mane, Sturridge and Origi in your offense, you don't get much variation in the style of play. Every once in a while you just need a big and strong centre forward to shake things up a bit and catch opponents on the wrong foot.

I'm not saying Liverpool needs to sing a Duncan Ferguson kind of player, but they do need players who can execute an alternative gameplan once plan A is not working. Parking the bus is a legitimate tactics and the title contending team must be prepared to play against it, just as they must have a response to any unfavourable tactics from their opponents.

So Benteke? Haaa shame he didnt want to ride the bench. He was a great option to have

[Rorshach]

43 minutes ago, Lord Friendzone said:

Obviously a lot of people hate this idea of Wenger staying for one more year but if people like Tuchel, Sampaoli and others do not want to go to Arsenalů after this season. What else should Arsenal board do?

Wenger is for sure a stubborn man who wants to go with the bang and not like this. I don't blame him. for this. One more year is a reasonable idea and it allows transition to be smooth for other coach. Because currently the next coach got more work to do then Conte or Mourinho. New coach=new fresh ideas but Arsenal can also end up in the situation like Man Utd, years of out of top 4. I can also understand fans frustrations of not competing and wanting to win some big trophies. As long as this is really a one year deal, I think this is a reasonable idea. Fans will protest even more and it wil bring more toxic atmosphere to the stands.

Dunno about this. 

Of course Wenger doesn't want to go out like this, but it's a situation of his own making, and turning it around may very well be beyond him. Not only does he have to convince the players that they're better off with him - which may or may not be difficult - but he also has to demonstrate to a growing portion of the Arsenal fans that he has what it takes to actually challenge for something. At this point in time, there seems to be little faith among the faithful that things will improve, and that in turn creates a hostile atmosphere where failure on the pitch translates into unrest - which surely influences the squad and the manager.

In other words: Wenger may want to go out with a bang, but the longer he stays the bigger the wimper is likely to become.

[Consigliere]

Another issue is, will the likes of Sanchez and Ozil renew their contracts if Wenger stays on for another year? I doubt it as it is just going to be more of the same. Wenger's managerial tactics are a bit dated. As one Arsenal fansite put it: He's become an analog manager in a digital world. Even if Arsenal refuse to sell, I believe these two players and maybe Giroud as well enter the last six months of their contract next January which means they would be free to sign pre-contract agreements with other clubs and leave for free. I don't see the point of keeping Wenger on for one more year. Whether next season or the following, a new manager will still have alot of work to do. Might as well start the rebuilding process asap. Arsenal will need to review their wage structure as well if they want to attract and keep hold of top class talent.

[Lord Friendzone]

28 minutes ago, Rorshach said:

Dunno about this. 

Of course Wenger doesn't want to go out like this, but it's a situation of his own making, and turning it around may very well be beyond him. Not only does he have to convince the players that they're better off with him - which may or may not be difficult - but he also has to demonstrate to a growing portion of the Arsenal fans that he has what it takes to actually challenge for something. At this point in time, there seems to be little faith among the faithful that things will improve, and that in turn creates a hostile atmosphere where failure on the pitch translates into unrest - which surely influences the squad and the manager.

In other words: Wenger may want to go out with a bang, but the longer he stays the bigger the wimper is likely to become.

It's also fault of Kroenke(who is a poor owner look at Nuggets, Avalanche or Rams) or board of Arsenal. Wenger stubborness is just a part of the problem at Arsenal. They're run as a company, not a football club. How can manager have his say whether he stays of goes? Set aside Ferguson due to his legacy, who else can do that? They're accepting second best, money from UCL and not really care for trophies. They let it go to this stage. Everything lies on Wenger who seems to be the only football brain in that board, all the blame goes on him. Players also have to look in the mirror for their attitude. Wenger took a lot of hits for them and this is their thank you? Things went south when David Dean left the club, he was sort of person that was above Wenger and made things happen.

Unrest will continue as long as Wenger is there. Some people had enough of this and don't care whether they'll finish or not in top4. All I am saying is that one year deal seems like sort of a reasonable idea, if they can prepare things to go smoother and not last minute decision. That might do more damage then good. While Wenger is not challenging fot the title but also can offer them stability. They need to learn from Man Utd in a way that preparing the team better and choosing the right guy. Especially, if it means and looks that Tuchel or Allegri might not want to come yet. If this is what Wenger has on his mind and not just his own pride, then \i agree. But I'm not an Arsenal fan. so might view is of someone that is looking form the neutral point of view.

[mormont]

I've defended Wenger often, but at this point even I think it's time for him to go. He's been an outstanding manager, but he isn't achieving what he needs to with Arsenal. The problem is, he seems to have lost his focus. He didn't just want to win: he wanted to do it while refusing to spend big, playing a particular way, showing loyalty to his players and sticking to his methods. And you can do some of those things, but not all of them at once. He seems to have come around on transfers and wages, being willing to spend more, but he's dug right in on loyalty despite that not being rewarded. Too many of the players at Arsenal are, or are playing like, mid-table players. They're either not good enough or not willing to do what it takes to achieve their potential. And that's ultimately on the manager.

I can understand the temptation to give him one last shot, particularly if an upgrade isn't available right now, but unless it comes with a pre-contrct agreement on Wenger's successor, it seems likely to be a mistake.

[Rorshach]

Obviously, there's no guarantees that a new manager will mean better results. And I agree that the owner and the board have to shoulder the blame - they should prehaps have had a plan for succession ready. 

As for one more year - what could happen? The "rosy" picture is Wenger stabilizing the club, leaving it in a good shape for a well-chosen and well-prepared replacement. Another possibility, less appealing, is the fans and players losing faith even more, unrest growing, Arsenal falling out of CL (or Europe) altogether, making them less attractive, and the rebuilding job gets harder. 

Considering how uninspired Arsenal have looked of late, I think sooner rather than later would be the best solution. It is, however, by no means a safe bet.

Also, as an aside, me being an Everton supporter also mean I'm sort-of-objective

[Mexal]

I don't see anything positive out of Wenger staying another year and I don't think it gives anyone confidence in the performance of the team. It's a waste and while he might just get back in the top 4 through sheer luck, we're going to be in a similar position as we were in the last 5 years. It's frustrating. I know a new manager might not change much and it may make us worse, but like with the Bengals in the NFL, there comes a time when change needs to happen to facilitate a new era. It's that time now and it frustrates me that neither Wenger nor the board recognizes that.

[A Horse Named Stranger]

Well, Ranieri is on the market, so if they part with Wenger he might be the best option for them. As for Tuchel his contract runs out in 2018, but for all I know he and Dortmund are scheduled to discuss an extension this summer. 

[Lord Friendzone]

Ranieri doesn't have the best track record when it comes to longevity, Arsenal should target someone younger. Not someone like Howe who is too inexperienced for this job. Often mentioned but needs to go to club like Southampton, Everton or West Ham, and prove himself there. Then afetr few years can eventually move to a bigger club. If he continues to be successful.

If Arsenal fail to qualify for UCL and it looks this way fof them, then it might help them next season. Wenger can do more harm than good but also new coach doesn't guanrantee immediate success.

[Consigliere]

I don't think Ranieri is the right man. Apart from his fairytale season with Leicester, I don't see anything in his managerial record to suggest that he can elevate Arsenal to genuine league and CL contenders. At the end of the day, it will be Wenger who decides whether he stays or goes. The only thing I think that might force the boards hand into not offering him an extension is if Arsenal finish outside the top 4 this season. Wenger's staunch belief in not spending big in comparison to other clubs of Arsenal's stature works out very well for the owners. The impression I get is that the board are quite happy with the way things have been going for the past decade - keeping that CL money rolling in is the most important thing to them while actually challenging for the league and/or CL would be considered a bonus.

[baxus]

3 hours ago, Lord Friendzone said:

We almost won the title with Suarez, Sturridge attack. While I agree variety of options is good to have but also depends on quality. Mane, Coutinho are not striker. Our success always depended on top class strikers. We always had someone from Ian St. John days, Rushie, Beardsley, Fowler, Owen, to Torres and Suarez. Firmino is ideal for Klopp's style but he lack that cutting edge Suarez or others had. Sturridge barely plays and is kinda of selfish which Klopp does not tolerate. Origi is a decent alternative but not a focal point.

As long as we don't have a top class striker, solid defence and a lack of depth. Rumours or Dembele are nice and he would add something different. I'm looking at Morata, Lacazette or even cheeky bid for Aguero. Depends on his situation. 

Suarez is the kind of player who can whip up a goal out of thin air, the kind who can break the parked bus rather easily (compared to most other players) with either a goal or an assist, which blows the game wide open. There's not a single player like that on the market at the moment.

I started watching Liverpool in Fowler/Owen days, so I can't speak about those before, but Suarez was definitely the best striker I've seen playing for Liverpool. I'll always regret not seeing him and Torres play together. THAT would've been a blast!

2 hours ago, Mark Antony said:

So Benteke? Haaa shame he didnt want to ride the bench. He was a great option to have

Benteke definitely was a great option to have. Seeing him leave was definitely a shame. The guy scored 10 league goals or close enough (just checked, over 1529 minutes of league game time he scored 9 and set up 4 goals), mostly coming off the bench, playing in a system not suited for him. Had Klopp adapted a bit to include him, he would've likely scored more, and could've even stayed at the club.

That being said, I blame neither Benteke for wanting to leave nor the club for letting him. Sometimes it just doesn't work out and it's best to part company than to drag it on and ruin it for everyone.

[A Horse Named Stranger]

16 minutes ago, Consigliere said:

I don't think Ranieri is the right man. Apart from his fairytale season with Leicester, I don't see anything in his managerial record to suggest that he can elevate Arsenal to genuine league and CL contenders. At the end of the day, it will be Wenger who decides whether he stays or goes. The only thing I think that might force the boards hand into not offering him an extension is if Arsenal finish outside the top 4 this season. Wenger's staunch belief in not spending big in comparison to other clubs of Arsenal's stature works out very well for the owners. The impression I get is that the board are quite happy with the way things have been going for the past decade - keeping that CL money rolling in is the most important thing to them while actually challenging for the league and/or CL would be considered a bonus.

Didn't Ranieri pretty much assemble Mourinho's title winning Chelski squad? And I think Arsenal might be in for a rebuild. They pretty much need almost a complete new defense (apart from Koschielny). They lack a really good second centre back, I have no idea if Mertesacker is still up to that task, when he comes back from his injury. And him and Cech are on their last legs, so they probably won't be around for 3 or 4 more years anyway. It looks like Sanchez (and possibly Özil) wanting to leave. Which would mean they lose quality. Though Özil is from Arsenal's point of view probably somewhat the most frustrating player to have. You know he has the skills, but there are so many games in which he is just not using them.

Thinking about it, Arsenal and Liverpool look pretty similar with their centre backs. Both have one real quality player for that position (Koscielny and Matip), and a second one, who is good, but not exceptional and a bit one dimensional (Mustafi and Lovren), who really need their better halves. 

 

[mormont]

Cech is 34. He probably has at least two more seasons at the very top level and I wouldn't be surprised to see him turning out for a lower level team in 2021.

[polishgenius]

45 minutes ago, baxus said:

Suarez is the kind of player who can whip up a goal out of thin air, the kind who can break the parked bus rather easily (compared to most other players) with either a goal or an assist, which blows the game wide open. There's not a single player like that on the market at the moment.

Well, there are. They aren't as good, or as proven good, as Suarez (apart from arguably Alexis Sanchez, who I can't see signing for Liverpool), but then neither was Suarez when he signed for Liverpool. Especially if they do hang on to the CL spots, but they do have money and allure even if not, cheeky bids for the likes of Lacazette, Mauro Icardi or hell even Dries Mertens who's proved a revelation in the striker spot this season wouldn't go amiss.

But heck, even a player in the mould of Giroud would improve Liverpool greatly. Someone who can play with his back to goal, but with his feet (mini-Lewandowski, basically...).

[Consigliere]

56 minutes ago, Notone said:

Didn't Ranieri pretty much assemble Mourinho's title winning Chelski squad?

I wouldn't go as far as saying pretty much. Yes, a number of players bought under Ranieri formed the core of Chelsea's subsequent title winning campaigns but Mourinho brought in as many players who were crucial to those first two title wins as well. Tbh, I think that under Ranieri Arsenal would, at best, be no worse off than they have been for the past decade i.e. finishing in top 4 without challenging and just making up the numbers in the CL.

[Jeor]

The Wenger situation is a tricky one. I also think that it's probably the right time for him to go, as supporters' faith in him being able to turn things around is at an all-time low. If he announced he were going, the negativity would disappear, supporters would get behind him for one last FA Cup run and there's still ample time to prepare for signing another manager and getting their off-season dealing lined up.

However, while I disagree with it, I can understand the board not wanting to dump him unless they have a solid replacement lined up. The two names I've heard are Allegri and Simeone, and Simeone is probably not going to be available for a little while yet. They seem the best of the available managers in that they've both won league titles recently, have experience with managing superstars, they know European football and are comparatively young. If they can't get either of those, I can understand the board waiting until they can nab the right person even if I don't think it's the best thing for the club.

I just hope the board have got one of those two (or someone similar) lined up. If they're going to extend Wenger for one more year, they better have someone lined up and ready to take over.

[Consigliere]

Schweinsteiger has agreed to join Chicago Fire on a one year deal. Always been a huge fan of his and a bit sad to see him leave. Too bad things didn't work out at United. Unfortunately, all those injuries in recent years took their toll and he hasn't been fully fit in years. Good luck to him in the MLS.

[DJDonegal]

I first called for Wenger to leave the club five years ago (checked my Tweets to confirm). At that point he had gone eight years without winning a title, so I think I'd been fair in giving him time to do something.

Two FA Cups have not and do not change my mind, and nor would a third win in four years do so even if it means crushing two big teams between now and the end of the Cup Final.

I'm 31 this year and Arsenal haven't won a title since I've legally been able to drink (18 where I live). He is the only constant through that entire period as Kroenke didn't join the board until 2008, and his takeover was completed in 2011.

[A Horse Named Stranger]

On 20.3.2017 at 7:45 PM, mormont said:

Cech is 34. He probably has at least two more seasons at the very top level and I wouldn't be surprised to see him turning out for a lower level team in 2021.

Yes. But if Sanchez and Özil were really to leave, and Arsenal was unable to find suitable replacements after missing out on the CL, I don't see them winning anywhere near winning the league in the near future (with Cech). You can say, those are realtively big ifs. In that case I also wouldn't rule out Cech saying, ok folks, I really lack the motivation to play on without the prospect of winning. E.g. I am not so sure Buffon would still be around, if Juve did not offer him a chance to collect silverware. Talking about Buffon, which reminds me...

On 16.3.2017 at 9:31 PM, mormont said:

People say this kind of thing a lot, but honestly? A player who looks at the current 'keeper and says 'I have no chance of dislodging that guy', doesn't have the correct mentality to play at a big club. Big club players should all believe that they should be in the team. It's just that for 'keepers, the stakes are higher because there are fewer chances to force your way in.

van der Sar was a bit in the opposite situation of CIllessen. When he was at Juve and they brought in Buffon as their new designated new #1, he (wisely) avoided that showdown and left a big club and went to Fulham. It's tough to argue that old Edwin did not have the mentality to play at a big club. Generally speaking, you are right. But with goalkeepers the situation is indeed a bit different. Usually as a backup you only get a chance if the starter picks up an injury or produces quite a few howlers, so that the manager is forced to drop him.