John Suburbs

Matches that Never Were

46 posts in this topic

Arianne and Renly would have made a very nice match; I'm surprised Robert never pushed for that one more. It would have been a nice peace offering to Dorne (though obviously Doran would have still said no). But Robert doesn't seem to have cared much about what the Dornish thought of him, or cared what Renly ever did. 

Still, a good match. They'd be able to do whatever or whoever else they wanted while uniting the southeast. 

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13 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Those first two are subject to debate. Well-behaved is not the same as kind, and it took some serious danger and trauma to get her using her brains. Sansa was also 12 years old at her wedding. Elia would have been older and more mature.

And power, and money, and influence. There would be plenty of girls willing to trade a handsome guy for even the ugliest Lannister.

That's true but he's the smartest man in Westeros, and not every girl in the seven kingdoms is completely shallow.

You think so? We have a lot of highborn female POV characters to form a sample, do you think any of them would be happy married to Tyrion even with his Casterly Rock claim?

Sansa, Catelyn, Asha, Cersei, Daenerys, Arianne, even Brienne would all hate being married to him. If we're including lowborn girls yeah lots of them would murder their own family to become part of the nobility, marrying a dwarf is a relatively small price to pay.

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Posted (edited)

12 minutes ago, Cataldo said:

You think so? We have a lot of highborn female POV characters to form a sample, do you think any of them would be happy married to Tyrion even with his Casterly Rock claim?

Sansa, Catelyn, Asha, Cersei, Daenerys, Arianne, even Brienne would all hate being married to him. If we're including lowborn girls yeah lots of them would murder their own family to become part of the nobility, marrying a dwarf is a relatively small price to pay.

You consider 9 characters out of a cast of more than 2,000 to be a lot? They aren't even the majority of POV characters. And that's without getting into epilogues and prologues, which skews the scale even more toward male characters.

As to your list...
-Sansa is too young to consider the advantages and still too attached to her little girl dreams when she's forced to marry Tyrion
-Catelyn is already married, then a grieving widow, and then a zombie, and doesn't count
-Asha isn't interested in marrying anybody, but isn't so shallow that she would necessarily reject Tyrion out of hand
-Cersei is his sister and they are not Targaryens
-Daenerys has dragons so she can choose whatever she wants
-Arianne is very concerned with appearances and believes them too easily, I concede that she would never marry Tyrion
-Brienne might be okay with it, she knows exactly how it feels to be mocked for your appearance and failure to conform.

But you're assertion that they would all "hate" being married to him is a bit presumptuous. Those seven women are all very different, and while Tyrion might not be anybody but Tysha's first choice, that doesn't mean being married to him would be horrible...except of course for someone who is so shallow that they can't get over how he looks. I'm not ready to consign all of highborn Westerosi femininity to such a damning judgment at the moment.

 

Edited by Lady Blizzardborn

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And what about Jaime and Cersei? If they did run away together and live as man and wife, would either one of them have been happy in the long run?

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18 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

And what about Jaime and Cersei? If they did run away together and live as man and wife, would either one of them have been happy in the long run?

As long as Cersei was still manipulating Jaime, she would have been happy-ish. Not sure Jaime would have been happy long term. Maybe if he stayed blind to Cersei's true nature. *shrug*

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9 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

You consider 9 characters out of a cast of more than 2,000 to be a lot? They aren't even the majority of POV characters. And that's without getting into epilogues and prologues, which skews the scale even more toward male characters.

As to your list...
-Sansa is too young to consider the advantages and still too attached to her little girl dreams when she's forced to marry Tyrion
-Catelyn is already married, then a grieving widow, and then a zombie, and doesn't count
-Asha isn't interested in marrying anybody, but isn't so shallow that she would necessarily reject Tyrion out of hand
-Cersei is his sister and they are not Targaryens
-Daenerys has dragons so she can choose whatever she wants
-Arianne is very concerned with appearances and believes them too easily, I concede that she would never marry Tyrion
-Brienne might be okay with it, she knows exactly how it feels to be mocked for your appearance and failure to conform.

But you're assertion that they would all "hate" being married to him is a bit presumptuous. Those seven women are all very different, and while Tyrion might not be anybody but Tysha's first choice, that doesn't mean being married to him would be horrible...except of course for someone who is so shallow that they can't get over how he looks. I'm not ready to consign all of highborn Westerosi femininity to such a damning judgment at the moment.

 

-Do you think Sansa as of TWOW would want to go back to being married to Tyrion? I very much doubt it, she will be trying to get rid of that marriage very soon.

-Let's assume this is a younger Catelyn before she married. Would she be happy? I'm sure she'd marry him if her father commanded it, she is dutiful, but I'm pretty sure she'd hate him.

-Asha still has relationships with men, always pretty boys.

-Well, Cersei literally fucks her twin brother and her cousin...

-Technically she can't, Daenerys was more or less forced into marrying Hizdahr who isn't a bad looking guy and she wasn't happy. Also she laughed at Quentyn's marriage proposition and he is just plain looking, not ugly. How do you think she would view marrying Tyrion?

-I don't think so, for all of Brienne's experiences of being mocked she is still only really attracted to men like Renly and Jaime Lannister. She doesn't think much of Hyle Hunt who shows interest in her.

I don't really think it's presumptuous, our female POVs aren't exactly stupid or shallow people except Cersei but there is enough evidence in the text to show they would not be attracted to Tyrion whatsoever.

 

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14 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

And what about Jaime and Cersei? If they did run away together and live as man and wife, would either one of them have been happy in the long run?

Not even a little. Cersei is incapable of any form of healthy long-term relationship with anyone. 

She wanted to be with Jaime and love him forever but also be Rhaegar's wife and queen all while juggling possible side lovers. I don't think Cersei ever truly knew what the hell she wanted; she wanted a lot of things, and all of them contradictory. She would also never give up her name and status for Jaime or anyone. He brings up the option of them running away together once and she basically calls him an idiot. 

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5 minutes ago, Cataldo said:

-Do you think Sansa as of TWOW would want to go back to being married to Tyrion? I very much doubt it, she will be trying to get rid of that marriage very soon.

-Let's assume this is a younger Catelyn before she married. Would she be happy? I'm sure she'd marry him if her father commanded it, she is dutiful, but I'm pretty sure she'd hate him.

-Asha still has relationships with men, always pretty boys.

-Well, Cersei literally fucks her twin brother and her cousin...

-Technically she can't, Daenerys was more or less forced into marrying Hizdahr who isn't a bad looking guy and she wasn't happy. Also she laughed at Quentyn's marriage proposition and he is just plain looking, not ugly. How do you think she would view marrying Tyrion?

-I don't think so, for all of Brienne's experiences of being mocked she is still only really attracted to men like Renly and Jaime Lannister. She doesn't think much of Hyle Hunt who shows interest in her.

I don't really think it's presumptuous, our female POVs aren't exactly stupid or shallow people except Cersei but there is enough evidence in the text to show they would not be attracted to Tyrion whatsoever.

 

No I don't. But Sansa is not every girl in Westeros.

Yes I think Cat could be happy or at least content married to Tyrion, if she hasn't been in love with someone else. Contrary to popular belief, arranged marriages are just as successful as those freely chosen by both people.

Asha having relationships is not the same as marrying. And she might chose a different kind of man for a husband than she does for a fling.

Cersei hates Tyrion because she thinks he's going to kill her. She's not a good test case for this.

Dany was not forced into marrying Hizdhar. She freely chose it. She laughed at Quentyn's marriage proposal because of the cirumstances, not his looks.

Brienne doesn't think much of any man. She's a woman on a mission, and she may well be in love with Jaime which will render all other men subpar to her. But her feelings for Jaime are not because of his looks. She couldn't stand him until he opened up and showed that he wasn't exactly the arrogant, unfeeling jackass he lets the world think he is. Brienne values substance above shine. She just never got close enough to Renly to see that he lacked substance.

Being attracted to someone is not the same as being happy with them. That seems to be what you're missing here. Attraction existed between Doran and Mellario, but it did not make a happy marriage for them. Marriage in a medieval setting is not about attraction, which is considered nice but unnecessary. As long as the people involved treat each other with respect and compassion, happiness or at least contentment is possible without physical attraction. Marriage is about far, far more than just faces and bodies.

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12 minutes ago, Cataldo said:

Do you think Sansa as of TWOW would want to go back to being married to Tyrion? I very much doubt it, she will be trying to get rid of that marriage very soon.

Depending on the alternative, she might. Granted, she's older and wiser and knows there are worse options.

Sansa felt sorry for her little cousin sometimes, but she could not imagine ever wanting to be his wife. I would sooner be married to Tyrion again. (SoS, Sansa VII)

As of WoW:

Spoiler

Upon seeing that Harry the Heir was a handsome fella, the next thing she thinks is:

Joffrey was comely too, though, she reminded herself. A comely monster, that's what he was. Little Lord Tyrion was kinder, twisted though he was. (WoW, Alayne I)

So if Harry hadn't dialed down his lousy attitude, I think she would sooner go back to Tyrion than marry him, either.

 

 

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20 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Being attracted to someone is not the same as being happy with them. That seems to be what you're missing here. Attraction existed between Doran and Mellario, but it did not make a happy marriage for them. Marriage in a medieval setting is not about attraction, which is considered nice but unnecessary. As long as the people involved treat each other with respect and compassion, happiness or at least contentment is possible without physical attraction. Marriage is about far, far more than just faces and bodies.

This may apply to say, someone like Quentyn Martell, but Tyrion is a special case.

Tyrion is a dwarf, he waddles about making a spectacle of himself wherever he goes. He can't help it, but culturally there is a big stigma towards dwarfs in Westeros (and in the real world). Any woman who marries him gets dragged into it by proxy. I mean Sansa doesn't hate Tyrion for his personality, but she hated that he wasn't tall enough to put a cloak around her shoulders, she hated having to be seen in public with him when he was half her height, waddling around without a nose making stupid jokes. 

This is exacerbated by the fact that Tyrion hates himself and has major issues regarding relationships due to his mother dying and his father being Tywin Lannister. I'm sorry but highborn girls won't be content with spending their lives with that kind of embarrassment.

Tyrion as a tragic character and I get the strong impression GRRM will end his story on a very lonely note, never getting the love and affection he desires from a woman, never getting the acceptance and respect he craves from his family. He's been purposefully written for no girl to love him or even be content with him. Even that event with Tysha is hazy, a two week marriage when he was an impressionable 13 year old. She might not have been a whore... but really if you're a homeless orphan and some rich lord offers to marry you you're not really gonna say no, even if he is a dwarf.

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Just now, Cataldo said:

This may apply to say, someone like Quentyn Martell, but Tyrion is a special case.

Tyrion is a dwarf, he waddles about making a spectacle of himself wherever he goes. He can't help it, but culturally there is a big stigma towards dwarfs in Westeros (and in the real world). Any woman who marries him gets dragged into it by proxy. I mean Sansa doesn't hate Tyrion for his personality, but she hated that he wasn't tall enough to put a cloak around her shoulders, she hated having to be seen in public with him when he was half her height, waddling around without a nose making stupid jokes. 

This is exacerbated by the fact that Tyrion hates himself and has major issues regarding relationships due to his mother dying and his father being Tywin Lannister. I'm sorry but highborn girls won't be content with spending their lives with that kind of embarrassment.

Tyrion as a tragic character and I get the strong impression GRRM will end his story on a very lonely note, never getting the love and affection he desires from a woman, never getting the acceptance and respect he craves from his family. He's been purposefully written for no girl to love him or even be content with him. Even that event with Tysha is hazy, a two week marriage when he was an impressionable 13 year old. She might not have been a whore... but really if you're a homeless orphan and some rich lord offers to marry you you're not really gonna say no, even if he is a dwarf.

I agree on Tyrion's ending, but I still disagree that there isn't a single highborn girl in the kingdom who couldn't overlook the appearance and the stigma and live an okay life married to Tyrion.

Again, Sansa is a 12 year old girl. Of course she's going to be hung up on those things. Not a lot of 12 year olds can look beyond what they want, and how they feel, and see deeper truths. Sansa is still all about Sansa then. An older and wiser woman could view things differently.

It's only embarrassing for the shallow, the insecure, and the weak.

I disagree with that assessment. He's been purposely written to show the problems with the culture of Westeros, Tywin Lannister and his pride, and the medieval mindset in general. Why mention love? Medieval marriage was not about love. 

Wow. For Tyrion's sake I hope your assessment of Tysha is absolutely wrong. Instead of a sweet girl you've made her a selfish little mercenary. And by the way, not all homeless orphans would take that deal even if the guy wasn't a dwarf.

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11 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

And by the way, not all homeless orphans would take that deal even if the guy wasn't a dwarf.

They would if they wanted to live. Westeros doesn't have homeless shelters or a welfare system. Girls like Tysha who have no family or husband usually end up dead or in a whorehouse. The idea of a rich lordling taking them as a wife is a dream come true, giving them a comfortable life.

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56 minutes ago, Cataldo said:

They would if they wanted to live. Westeros doesn't have homeless shelters or a welfare system. Girls like Tysha who have no family or husband usually end up dead or in a whorehouse. The idea of a rich lordling taking them as a wife is a dream come true, giving them a comfortable life.

Depends on how they feel about things like selling themselves in return for comfort. It's still whoring, just with a veneer of respectability. Some girls, even in medieval Europe (and by extension Westeros) would prefer to die first.

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It's not a stretch to imagine what a match between Joffrey and Sansa would have been like. Joffrey would have been still alive to marry Sansa, and continued his cruelty. She would have used courtesy as a shield, but perhaps she would have accepted some plots to free her from that monster, especially after she had a child.

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On 3/7/2017 at 10:38 PM, John Suburbs said:

It seems pretty clear that Lyanna would have been pretty miserable with Robert, and Cat would have suffered Brandon as best she could. But what about some of the other matches that were considered but not made?

Cersei and Viserys, or Cersei and Ned or Cersei and Oberyn

Arianne and Viserys

Jaime and Lysa, or Jaime and Elia

Tyrion and Lysa

Tyrion and Lollys

Tyrion and Elia

Littlefinger and Lollys

Disastrous marriages all? Or was there no one destined for a happy marriage other than Ned and Cat?

 

 

  • Cersei and Oberyn would be fine for a while.  Cersei would hate living in Sunspear.  
  • Jaime and Lysa could work.  
  • Tyrion and Elia.  The Martells would not agree to this.  

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5 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Depends on how they feel about things like selling themselves in return for comfort. It's still whoring, just with a veneer of respectability. Some girls, even in medieval Europe (and by extension Westeros) would prefer to die first.

not Tysha, evidently

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3 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:
  •  Tyrion and Elia.  The Martells would not agree to this.  

I'm actually giggling imagining how Elia and the Martells would react watching baby Tyrion grow up into a hideous dwarf, Oberyn would probably poison him

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42 minutes ago, Cataldo said:

not Tysha, evidently

You're assuming her only reason for accepting Tyrion was that it would make her life easier. That may be the case, but it's also possible that she really did love him. She was young and impressionable herself, and he was kind to her, which not many would have been.

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1 hour ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

You're assuming her only reason for accepting Tyrion was that it would make her life easier. That may be the case, but it's also possible that she really did love him. She was young and impressionable herself, and he was kind to her, which not many would have been.

How can you love someone you only knew for 2 weeks? It was a teenage infatuation, Tyrion just romanticises it.

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The chemistry between Ned and Cersei, Jaime and Cat - I enjoy thinking what might have become of that, if it wouldn't have been too late. Ned and Cat are always so dutiful, but with Cersei and Jaime you have them like leaning back for a moment in admiration - and Cersei and Jaime knowing just that. Part of Cersei and Jaime becoming bitter people is about them being unsure whether being loved back. Ned and Cat are obviously not good in hiding their affections and could have turned those Lannister-ambitions into something useful. In their special way the twins are family people and so are Ned and Cat.

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