Calibandar

Comics XIII

80 posts in this topic

seven to eternity volume 1 was ok. I think it could have done with 2 more issues for me to get a real feel for the book. I'm glad i read it as a trade as I would have dropped the comic with issue 2 which i found a confusing mess - the artwork and colours made it hard to distinguish all the characters that were suddenly introduced (besides the giant flying crocodile) and the fighting in general left me cold, Which is a shame ad the artwork is generally nice (and i know from avengers and x-force that Opena can do action) so I'm putting it down to Remender not writing a convincing battle and stage directions. The powers are original and visually impressive though and I like the set up for the villain and the fact the book seems more about how to safely dispose of a tyrant than the fight to defeat him.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hmm...I'm reading Seven to Eternity monthly and I'm loving it. The art and the world building are both top-notch, imo.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Nictarion said:

Hmm...I'm reading Seven to Eternity monthly and I'm loving it. The art and the world building are both top-notch, imo.

It might be an issue with the trade reprint but everything is very dark from the inks to the colours in a way that reminds me a lot of David Finch's work (maybe it's the same inker/colorist).

The world building in terms of how the Mud king is in charge is good - I'm just feeling like it's too soon for me to know what the series will be about. It seemed like they spent the first issue introducing characters that, for the time being, aren't part of the story anymore besides Adam. It's only 4 issues old though. I'll probably give the next trade a go.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The second to last issue of Clean Room is out, and it's both fairly creepy and kind of quiet, especially compared to #16. Still, it's on a good pace and the artist is still filling in nicely.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, Kalbear said:

The second to last issue of Clean Room is out, and it's both fairly creepy and kind of quiet, especially compared to #16. Still, it's on a good pace and the artist is still filling in nicely.

I thought this was going to be an ongoing? The latest issue ended with "to be continued" instead of concluded too...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Nictarion said:

I thought this was going to be an ongoing? The latest issue ended with "to be continued" instead of concluded too...

Season 1 is going to finish at issue 18. Season 2 will start soon after.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was thinking this might have been an April fools' joke but several comic sites are reporting it.

It's a strange one as I'd say the problem is more with Marvel's approach to storytelling in general of late but I do wonder if there is an undercurrent of readers not liking new characters (particularly if they supplant ones they like). I get the impression there's a significant number of comic readers who do like the old characters and hopefully it's more a case of the old characters not being diverse than the readers not liking diversity? It's impossible to tell without some surveys being done on why people aren't buying them.

They don't seem to mention Hydra America but maybe they are including cap as a nazi as resistance to diversity too? Can't rule it out with Marvel.

Anyway it's the usual problem of them blaming the lack of sales on not having a white male lead as opposed to wondering about whether the storytelling and art and general execution might be a failing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's simple. DC and Marvel are in the same bind. They know they can't keep selling comics written by the same creators, in the same format (single issues), by the same means (comics shops) to the same people (pretty much literally the same ones who've been reading for the last two decades). So they make moves that are intended to bring in non-traditional audiences (younger, more diverse characters and creators, digital sales, etc.) 

But at the first sign that those moves aren't a complete success, they get cold feet, blame the market, and run back to what they know. Particularly, oddly, if the comics don't sell in comic shops, which they are not designed to do.

It's the same story as Hollywood: every time a female-led or minority-led film fails, it's 'audiences don't want diversity! Quick, get Tom Cruise's agent on the phone.'

Safety, familiarity, these are tempting to media companies. The only answer is to support diversity when you can.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The issue here is not diversity being bad, but rather the means Marvel chose to promote diversity were simply misguided and doomed to fail in the long run- simply killing off or shoving aside it's main heroes and putting minorities as their replacements. In some cases writing deeply forced stories to justify it (who can forget the "epic" issue in which Jane Foster Thor fights the Absorbing Man? Or the origin story of the new Nick Fury? Ugh).

In the last 5 years Marvel killed off or set aside Wolverine, Bruce Banner, Tony Stark and Thor (and also Prof. Xavier, Cyclops, Hank Pym, Nick Fury and War Machine), turned Captain America into a Nazi and Hawkeye into the murderer of a fellow Avenger. Sooner or later there would be consequences.

Ms. Marvel and Miles Morales are popular, but that's because they're not replacing anyone. If they had killed off Carol or 616 Peter you really think they would be just as popular as they are now? Not a chance.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, mormont said:

It's simple. DC and Marvel are in the same bind. They know they can't keep selling comics written by the same creators, in the same format (single issues), by the same means (comics shops) to the same people (pretty much literally the same ones who've been reading for the last two decades). So they make moves that are intended to bring in non-traditional audiences (younger, more diverse characters and creators, digital sales, etc.) 

But at the first sign that those moves aren't a complete success, they get cold feet, blame the market, and run back to what they know. Particularly, oddly, if the comics don't sell in comic shops, which they are not designed to do.

It's the same story as Hollywood: every time a female-led or minority-led film fails, it's 'audiences don't want diversity! Quick, get Tom Cruise's agent on the phone.'

Safety, familiarity, these are tempting to media companies. The only answer is to support diversity when you can.

Yeah - I suspect they'll be getting Tom Cruise on board for any future Ghost in the shell movies.

The annoying thing is that they aren't saying "let's abandon white male leads" when books like "solo" and "foolkiller" (although I'm so indifferent to those characters I don't even know what their current ethnicities are) fail. SpiderGwen seems to be a success but that again could be because she isn't displacing Spider-man.

I agree that some of their books are long term investments if they want a different audience. And, as you say, a different audience is probably also reading comics in a different way than physical copies. A bit like how it took Marvel a bit of persistence to get into the graphic novel format - it wasn't an overnight success for them and took a while (probably because they didn't have that much to sell in terms of content).

4 hours ago, Winterfell is Burning said:

The issue here is not diversity being bad, but rather the means Marvel chose to promote diversity were simply misguided and doomed to fail in the long run- simply killing off or shoving aside it's main heroes and putting minorities as their replacements. In some cases writing deeply forced stories to justify it (who can forget the "epic" issue in which Jane Foster Thor fights the Absorbing Man? Or the origin story of the new Nick Fury? Ugh).

In the last 5 years Marvel killed off or set aside Wolverine, Bruce Banner, Tony Stark and Thor (and also Prof. Xavier, Cyclops, Hank Pym, Nick Fury and War Machine), turned Captain America into a Nazi and Hawkeye into the murderer of a fellow Avenger. Sooner or later there would be consequences.

Ms. Marvel and Miles Morales are popular, but that's because they're not replacing anyone. If they had killed off Carol or 616 Peter you really think they would be just as popular as they are now? Not a chance.

I think is definitely the way they should be looking at it. Introducing new characters by having them replace popular ones is arguably the worst way to do so because people who love those characters feel like they've had this other character thrust upon them. Ms Marvel and Miles are good examples in the sense they weren't really replacing them. At this stage I think the female Hawkeye would also be accepted and that's because she shared the book and title with Hawkeye (although I'm kidding myself in thinking Hawkeye is an A lister).

The upcoming generations book could have been a good way to introduce these characters rather than probably retconning a lot of them out.

The frustrating thing is that it really is true that it's hard to create a new character that lasts for Marvel or DC. Unless Rob Liefeld creates them, of all people.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, red snow said:

 

 

The frustrating thing is that it really is true that it's hard to create a new character that lasts for Marvel or DC. Unless Rob Liefeld creates them, of all people.

 

Yeah, that is ultimately the root of the problems- new characters rarely manage to become big, and most of the older ones are white.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Winterfell is Burning said:

Yeah, that is ultimately the root of the problems- new characters rarely manage to become big, and most of the older ones are white.

Which is why I think Marvel had good intentions but simply executed it badly. I've no idea why comic readers are so resistant against new characters though. sometimes it's not even "new" characters in the sense there seemed to be a window of time in which superheros could be embraced - if you weren't popular at the time then you're done.

I guess Vertigo, Image and some creator owned characters have made it but they tend not to be superheroes either.

Maybe a reverse approach would help by having new characters appear in film/tv first? Or at least make much better use of the characters that are established, like they are with Black Panther. There's several X-men (which always seems to have done the "best" job - possibly because of the mutant metaphor) they could push with greater focus or a solo book. When slapstick and Solo have their own comics I can't see how even Jubillee would be off-limits.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, Winterfell is Burning said:

The issue here is not diversity being bad, but rather the means Marvel chose to promote diversity were simply misguided and doomed to fail in the long run- simply killing off or shoving aside it's main heroes and putting minorities as their replacements. In some cases writing deeply forced stories to justify it (who can forget the "epic" issue in which Jane Foster Thor fights the Absorbing Man? Or the origin story of the new Nick Fury? Ugh).

In the last 5 years Marvel killed off or set aside Wolverine, Bruce Banner, Tony Stark and Thor (and also Prof. Xavier, Cyclops, Hank Pym, Nick Fury and War Machine), turned Captain America into a Nazi and Hawkeye into the murderer of a fellow Avenger. Sooner or later there would be consequences.

Ms. Marvel and Miles Morales are popular, but that's because they're not replacing anyone. If they had killed off Carol or 616 Peter you really think they would be just as popular as they are now? Not a chance.

Some of these things are not like the others. Professor X hasn't been replaced. (And he dies all the time.) Neither has Cyclops. Hank Pym hasn't been directly replaced: the new Wasp is his daughter but she's the Wasp, not any of the many legacy identities Hank leaves lying around like old t-shirts. War Machine is a legacy hero himself, really. And I believe Nick Fury, original flavour, isn't dead? He was briefly thought to be in Original Sin but it was an LMD, because it's always an LMD.

And the fact is, legacy heroes have been around for most of comics history. Since FF #1, in fact - featuring a new Human Torch. Before that, in DC comics. There's nothing wrong with legacy heroes. Of course, some of them catch on, and some don't. Again, quite normal. She-Hulk caught on. Ms./Captain Marvel (Carol Danvers) caught on. One was created alongside the original, one replaced the dead original. On the other hand, Julia Carpenter Spider-Woman never really caught on despite appearing alongside Spider-Man, but Jessica Drew Spider-Woman did, as has Spider-Gwen.

So I'm unconvinced that legacy heroes are the problem, whether or not they replace the originals. But more to the point, even if replacing the originals is a problem, it's a necessary evil. Launching completely new character concepts is hard, whether or not those characters are diverse. Most don't catch on, including white male characters: and they don't catch on for the same reason some legacy heroes don't - to give them the spotlight, you often need to sideline the classic heroes. But the classic heroes, being products of their time, are not diverse. So you run into the same problems. You get nowhere.

Incidentally, going back to those original quotes, apparently they're based on discussions Marvel have had with... traditional comic book shop owners. Kind of making my point for me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, red snow said:

Maybe a reverse approach would help by having new characters appear in film/tv first?

Worked nicely for Harley Quinn and X-23.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Red Tiger said:

Worked nicely for Harley Quinn and X-23.

Exactly. If the aim is to bring in new readers then using another medium is probably a good start. Legion could be a good place but in terms of getting younger readers cartoons are the way forward. It's how i got into comics in the 90s and I read anything with the core x-men in them and usually looked out for spidey guest stars like Blade.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, mormont said:

Some of these things are not like the others. Professor X hasn't been replaced. (And he dies all the time.) Neither has Cyclops. Hank Pym hasn't been directly replaced: the new Wasp is his daughter but she's the Wasp, not any of the many legacy identities Hank leaves lying around like old t-shirts. War Machine is a legacy hero himself, really. And I believe Nick Fury, original flavour, isn't dead? He was briefly thought to be in Original Sin but it was an LMD, because it's always an LMD.

And the fact is, legacy heroes have been around for most of comics history. Since FF #1, in fact - featuring a new Human Torch. Before that, in DC comics. There's nothing wrong with legacy heroes. Of course, some of them catch on, and some don't. Again, quite normal. She-Hulk caught on. Ms./Captain Marvel (Carol Danvers) caught on. One was created alongside the original, one replaced the dead original. On the other hand, Julia Carpenter Spider-Woman never really caught on despite appearing alongside Spider-Man, but Jessica Drew Spider-Woman did, as has Spider-Gwen.

So I'm unconvinced that legacy heroes are the problem, whether or not they replace the originals. But more to the point, even if replacing the originals is a problem, it's a necessary evil. Launching completely new character concepts is hard, whether or not those characters are diverse. Most don't catch on, including white male characters: and they don't catch on for the same reason some legacy heroes don't - to give them the spotlight, you often need to sideline the classic heroes. But the classic heroes, being products of their time, are not diverse. So you run into the same problems. You get nowhere.

Incidentally, going back to those original quotes, apparently they're based on discussions Marvel have had with... traditional comic book shop owners. Kind of making my point for me.

I haven't said all those characters were replaced. My point is that Marvel is getting rid of too many major characters in a short period of time and being surprised that people weren't all that fond of the new books.

And replacing the popular heroes with new ones taking their mantle isn't a "necessary evil", it's just misguided because in the long run the older heroes will always be back and the new ones will be sidelined or forgotten. It isn't new- Marvel already tried that shit in the 80's and didn't work there either.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
51 minutes ago, Winterfell is Burning said:

I haven't said all those characters were replaced. My point is that Marvel is getting rid of too many major characters in a short period of time and being surprised that people weren't all that fond of the new books.

And replacing the popular heroes with new ones taking their mantle isn't a "necessary evil", it's just misguided because in the long run the older heroes will always be back and the new ones will be sidelined or forgotten. It isn't new- Marvel already tried that shit in the 80's and didn't work there either.

I agree with this.

I am reading Silk and I enjoy it greatly, but Marvel wisely keeps her in the background and lets the character develop on her own, rather than shoving her down other fans' throats.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Winterfell is Burning said:

I haven't said all those characters were replaced. My point is that Marvel is getting rid of too many major characters in a short period of time and being surprised that people weren't all that fond of the new books.

I get that's what you're saying, but my point is that this looks like a false trend, both because a lot of these character deaths/sidelinings are unrelated to each other or to the legacy heroes, and because this level of character death/sidelining is actually pretty normal for superhero comics. Hence the references to Professor X dying all the time and the number of LMDs Nick Fury Sr. goes through.

6 hours ago, Winterfell is Burning said:

And replacing the popular heroes with new ones taking their mantle isn't a "necessary evil", it's just misguided because in the long run the older heroes will always be back and the new ones will be sidelined or forgotten. It isn't new- Marvel already tried that shit in the 80's and didn't work there either.

You were literally just complaining about War Machine being killed off. War Machine exists solely because Marvel in the 80s decided to sideline Tony and make Rhodey the new Iron Man. Now, Rhodey is so well established you're upset that he got killed. (So am I!)

So it did work in the 80s. It worked in the 60s too, and the 70s, the 90s, the 00s and now, for Marvel and for DC too. Replacing older heroes is where we got Barry Allen, Monica Rambeau, Carol Danvers, John Stewart, Rachel Grey, and dozens of others. Of course there were also failures in each of those decades too, as there are now. But the point is, replacing the old character with a new version (or the old team with a new one) is a comic book standard. Sometimes it's clearly temporary, sometimes it's a way of launching new characters. Always it's a necessary evil: it has to be done to freshen up stale comics lines. That's what Marvel needs: freshness. That, and quality creators being allowed to do their thing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

War Machine wasn't created to be Tony's replacement, he only became Iron Man 50 issues after being first introduced, and with a different writer. Carol Danvers wasn't created to be Mar-vell's replacement either.

Monica Rambeau was created as a replacement, and the result she wasn't used for decades after her creator left, and never really became a major name.

DC really is a different case than Marvel because there were always a dozen Flashes or Green Lanterns running around at any given time, and generally speaking, the characters are more archetypal and less about the man in the suit- thus in DC you're reading about The Flash and Green Lantern, while at Marvel you're reading about Peter Parker and Tony Stark.

Plus, DC is a good example of what happens to replacement heroes: Wally was his own man for decades, popular and well-accepted by the fans, but sooner or later you get a Geoff Johns saying "I WANT THINGS JUST LIKE IN MY CHILDHOOD! I WANNA!" and Barry was shoved aside and stayed in Limbo or underused for many years.

Edited by Winterfell is Burning

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.