Towers by the sea

[Lady Blizzardborn]

6 hours ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

There's taking an indirect route, and then there's travelling three times the distance you need to, with only the clothes on your back and the food you can carry, on one horse, as fast as you can, and spending twice as much time in hostile territory...

<snip

Not sure if anyone has covered this but, is there anything in the text that tells us Alys Karstark has any idea whatsoever how to get to Castle Black? Some people really have no sense of direction. Couldn't she have gotten lost?

[Ser Wun Wun]

It definitely has to do with Euron.  I used to think it was him attacking Oldtown, which seems to be the popular opinion for what his next move will be after destroying the Redwyne fleet....but I've rethought things after reading the Aeron Winds chapter.  

Spoiler

Euron has 3 objectives:  Dragons, Iron Throne and Dany.  I don't see how sacking Oldtown helps him secure any of these 3 objectives.  He doesn't give a shit about plunder.  Unless you are banking on some kind of important dragonlore book being there that he wants (which I don't think is the case), I just don't see the motive for him to go there.  The FM might want some book there, I just don't think Euron does.  

I also can't see him simply going east to hasten his retrieval of Dany and the Dragons.  If George intended for Euron to meet Dany in the far east, he would not have sent Victation.  Dany and the Dragons will come to Euron, he doesn't need to go chasing them.  That's the meaning of that whole vision Aeron had where Euron sounded a horn and 'krakens, dragons and sphinxes came to bow before him' imo.

So what does Euron do to pass the time waiting for Dany to come to him?  The most logical answer to that imo, is simply FUCK UP Aegon.  

Aegon is a rival for all of Euron's objectives.  I cannot see Euron just sitting on his hands while Aegon secures Storm's End, the loyalty of Dorne and possibly some Reach lords.  Aegon's path to taking KL is too easy once he beats that army coming down on SE...until you factor in Euron.  I can easily see it:  Arianne and Aegon will be all excited about beating Mace's army...until they get news that Sunspear has been destroyed and Doran is dead.   

Plot wise, Euron is basically like a wrecking ball.  He's already fucked up the Tyrell's, I think Aegon and Dorne are next.  Then he will fuck up Dany and the Dothraki as they attempt to cross the Narrow Sea.  Last I think he will fuck with Jon and humanity in general, as they attempt to deal with the Others.   

So my guess is Sunspear is the target.  Aegon and Dorne are next on Euron's shit list.  

[aryagonnakill#2]

2 hours ago, Ser Wun Wun said:

It definitely has to do with Euron.  I used to think it was him attacking Oldtown, which seems to be the popular opinion for what his next move will be after destroying the Redwyne fleet....but I've rethought things after reading the Aeron Winds chapter.  

  Hide contents

Euron has 3 objectives:  Dragons, Iron Throne and Dany.  I don't see how sacking Oldtown helps him secure any of these 3 objectives.  He doesn't give a shit about plunder.  Unless you are banking on some kind of important dragonlore book being there that he wants (which I don't think is the case), I just don't see the motive for him to go there.  The FM might want some book there, I just don't think Euron does.  

I also can't see him simply going east to hasten his retrieval of Dany and the Dragons.  If George intended for Euron to meet Dany in the far east, he would not have sent Victation.  Dany and the Dragons will come to Euron, he doesn't need to go chasing them.  That's the meaning of that whole vision Aeron had where Euron sounded a horn and 'krakens, dragons and sphinxes came to bow before him' imo.

So what does Euron do to pass the time waiting for Dany to come to him?  The most logical answer to that imo, is simply FUCK UP Aegon.  

Aegon is a rival for all of Euron's objectives.  I cannot see Euron just sitting on his hands while Aegon secures Storm's End, the loyalty of Dorne and possibly some Reach lords.  Aegon's path to taking KL is too easy once he beats that army coming down on SE...until you factor in Euron.  I can easily see it:  Arianne and Aegon will be all excited about beating Mace's army...until they get news that Sunspear has been destroyed and Doran is dead.   

Plot wise, Euron is basically like a wrecking ball.  He's already fucked up the Tyrell's, I think Aegon and Dorne are next.  Then he will fuck up Dany and the Dothraki as they attempt to cross the Narrow Sea.  Last I think he will fuck with Jon and humanity in general, as they attempt to deal with the Others.   

So my guess is Sunspear is the target.  Aegon and Dorne are next on Euron's shit list.  

Just for the record you don't need to put something in spoiler tags unless it is info from a sample chapter.

I don't think he is looking for the book either because he didn't want to hang around the Reach at all, he only did it when his captains had the non violent revolt on the shield islands and he decided to send Victarion instead.

[Makk]

On 3/12/2017 at 0:57 AM, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

Melisandre knows Arya Stark is to marry Ramsay at Winterfell. She sees a grey girl on a dying horse, and she thinks it's Arya, coming to Jon Snow. Since they're talking about Arya fleeing Winterfell, Mance thinks the body of water is Long Lake. Since they've assumed the girl's heading north, that puts the lake to her west.

Now, we know that the girl who fled was actually Alys Karstark, fleeing her own marriage. But look at the map: Long Lake is almost as far away from the Last Hearth as Castle Black. So unless Alys deliberately travelled three times longer than she needed to, it wasn't her either.

I don't know who the girl is, or where, or when, but I'm very fond of the idea that she's actually travelling south, with the body of water to the east. Else why mention those details?

Edit: and I'd love to find out if Alys Karstark's horse actually died in the end.

This is interesting. Are we sure Alys came from Karhold though? She and Cregan could have been with the Karstark retinue that was heading towards Winterfell to meet with Stannis. She needed to learn of the plan somewhere, so is it possible she escaped while they were on the march?

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

8 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Not sure if anyone has covered this but, is there anything in the text that tells us Alys Karstark has any idea whatsoever how to get to Castle Black? Some people really have no sense of direction. Couldn't she have gotten lost?

Maybe. But all she has to do is head north. That's not too hard to figure out. Isn't there a north star in the GoT universe?

2 hours ago, Makk said:

This is interesting. Are we sure Alys came from Karhold though? She and Cregan could have been with the Karstark retinue that was heading towards Winterfell to meet with Stannis. She needed to learn of the plan somewhere, so is it possible she escaped while they were on the march?

Possibly, but then (a) wouldn't the Karstarks have sent more men to recover her than just Cregan? (b) wouldn't it've been mentioned in an Asha or Theon chapter? Alys Karstark running away would've been some tasty gossip, and hard to keep secret.

[Rusty Winchester]

I think the Euron/Oldtown is the most likely explanation, but I can't help but wish for a horde of zombies attacking Pike across a frozen sea.  That just sounds entirely too fun for words.  The only thing I feel confident in is that if Melisandre is interpreting something, she probably done screwed it up. Melisandre is basically the anti Old Nan. Old Nan spins fanciful stories that sound like the crazed ranting's of a true lunatic, but seem to get proved true time and again. Melisandre on the other hand seems to find a way to take actual visions of the future, and turn them into useless garbage that only serves to lead characters in the wrong direction.

[Ygrain]

On 8. 3. 2017 at 2:07 PM, rotting sea cow said:

I saw towers by the sea, submerged beneath a black and bloody tide

Compare with: 

Quote

 

A tall and twisted thing with one black eye and ten long arms, sailing on a sea of blood.

 

IMHO, it's definitely Euron, ad I don't think it would make much sense for him to attack somewhere inland. How would he get to HH and why would he in the first place? If he wanted to destroy the Isle of Faces, perhaps, but then there would be no point in showing the destruction of the castle in the vision. An important port makes more sense, and if it's going to be plot-relevant, we need a PoV character there. Sam in Oldtown, Arianne or Areo in Sunspear, Arya in Braavos. Not sure if Braavos counts as towers and Euron seems more bent on plundering Westeros, so either Oldtown or Suspear. Which one holds more power or loot, and which one would be a heavier blow to the current players?

[rotting sea cow]

29 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Compare with: 

IMHO, it's definitely Euron, ad I don't think it would make much sense for him to attack somewhere inland. How would he get to HH and why would he in the first place? If he wanted to destroy the Isle of Faces, perhaps, but then there would be no point in showing the destruction of the castle in the vision. An important port makes more sense, and if it's going to be plot-relevant, we need a PoV character there. Sam in Oldtown, Arianne or Areo in Sunspear, Arya in Braavos. Not sure if Braavos counts as towers and Euron seems more bent on plundering Westeros, so either Oldtown or Suspear. Which one holds more power or loot, and which one would be a heavier blow to the current players?

I agree. People in this thread started to look for any possible fortress/city/castle with enough towers, wherever they are located. If we really read the books, possibilities are not too many.

[Lost Melnibonean]

4 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Compare with: 

IMHO, it's definitely Euron, ad I don't think it would make much sense for him to attack somewhere inland. How would he get to HH and why would he in the first place? If he wanted to destroy the Isle of Faces, perhaps, but then there would be no point in showing the destruction of the castle in the vision. An important port makes more sense, and if it's going to be plot-relevant, we need a PoV character there. Sam in Oldtown, Arianne or Areo in Sunspear, Arya in Braavos. Not sure if Braavos counts as towers and Euron seems more bent on plundering Westeros, so either Oldtown or Suspear. Which one holds more power or loot, and which one would be a heavier blow to the current players?

If it's Euron and a significant port, rather than purely symbolic, wouldn't King's Landing be another strong candidate? 

[Lord Varys]

If it has to do with Euron it could also be towers standing around on the Arbor. Oldtown only has one significant tower, and one would assume that the vision would have shown that one. The Hightowers themselves could also be symbolized as towers but that would be very convoluted. Still, it is a possibility.

[Makk]

13 hours ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

Possibly, but then (a) wouldn't the Karstarks have sent more men to recover her than just Cregan? (b) wouldn't it've been mentioned in an Asha or Theon chapter? Alys Karstark running away would've been some tasty gossip, and hard to keep secret

There were 6 men and a pack of dogs, I think that is a reasonable sized hunting party.

Cregan Karstark had turned up a day behind his niece. With him came four mounted men-at-arms, a huntsman, and a pack of dogs, sniffing after Lady Alys as if she were a deer. Jon Snow met them on the kingsroad half a league south of Mole's Town, before they could turn up at Castle Black, claim guest right, or call for parley. One of Karstark's men had loosed a crossbow quarrel at Ty and died for it. That left four, and Cregan himself.

I still think what you pointed out is interesting and wonder what it may mean if it wasn't actually her. Potentially real Arya? Jeyne Poole? But it could all be nothing.

[Ygrain]

4 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

If it's Euron and a significant port, rather than purely symbolic, wouldn't King's Landing be another strong candidate? 

Yeah but I think that with Cersei, KL has a different story arc ;-)

[Lost Melnibonean]

36 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Yeah but I think that with Cersei, KL has a different story arc ;-)

Burn them all? 

[Lord Varys]

6 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Burn them all? 

Only if she and Euron come back to take the Iron Throne from Aegon. Then I could see her burning down the city and the precious Iron Throne to spite Daenerys - assuming everything goes to hell for her, first. The idea of Dany's victory is really going to drive her mad, especially after she realizes how wrong she was about the younger, more beautiful queen. It wasn't Margaery, Arianne, or Sansa after all...

But right now - no chance. Not while there isn't enough new wildfire and not while Varys is effectively controlling the city, preparing everything for Aegon.

[Ygrain]

9 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Burn them all? 

Well, what else would be the narrative point of Cersei the Crazy and her obsession with wildfire? If Euron swooped in and wreaked havoc, it would kinda diminish the impact.

[Lost Melnibonean]

10 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Well, what else would be the narrative point of Cersei the Crazy and her obsession with wildfire? If Euron swooped in and wreaked havoc, it would kinda diminish the impact.

Do you think Jaime might stop her first? 

[Ygrain]

4 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Do you think Jaime might stop her first? 

Hm... you mean, repeat the Aerys situation? Perhaps, but would he really learn of the plan beforehands twice? I rather see him find out too late and kill her afterwards. Or, kill her just seconds before they both go in the blaze - IIRC, isn't it mentioned somewhere that they are to leave the world together, just as they entered it?

[Lost Melnibonean]

16 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Hm... you mean, repeat the Aerys situation? Perhaps, but would he really learn of the plan beforehands twice? I rather see him find out too late and kill her afterwards. Or, kill her just seconds before they both go in the blaze - IIRC, isn't it mentioned somewhere that they are to leave the world together, just as they entered it?

I think she says that. I think Aegon lets him take the black. 

[Ygrain]

8 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I think she says that. I think Aegon lets him take the black. 

I don't see Jaime want to...

[rotting sea cow]

4 hours ago, Ygrain said:

I don't see Jaime want to...

Why not? Jaime never lusted for gold or power. He doesn't lust for battle or glory or his sister anymore. He wants duty and some sort of honor. The NW would suit him after being dismissed of the King Guard, which doesn't mean he is heading there.