Baby swapping in Westeros

[Seams]

8 hours ago, Lord Wraith said:

@Seams maybe we can hammer out the Darkstar is Jaeherys via PM or another thread.

Sounds good to me. Let's try PM, if you're game.

[Seams]

On 3/8/2017 at 11:09 PM, Lord Wraith said:

Darkstar as Jaerherys has been something I have been mulling over since the release of the World Book. All the other kids who died or were stillborn are all grouped up then Jaeherys gets like three paragraphs. Ages fit, has the look, and the attitude.

Also he was apparently poisoned by one of Aery's lovers. Darkstar was weaned on venom. Martin is being coy with us again.

Also I think Rhaelle smuggling her baby to the Princess of Dorne and getting it appear to be poisoned seems plausible to me. After all the result was Aerys penance and he stops taking lovers after that. Then a few years later we get Viserys after Aerys became less of an arse.

Also would explain a great deal about Doran's plans if he had a Targaryen hidden away in the mountains of Dorne.

I just re-read that section of the World book. The same page emphasizes the rumors about King Aerys and Joanna Lannister, and says that Rhaella sent away a number of her ladies in waiting because she felt the king was fooling around with them: "Joanna Lannister was not the first lady to be dismissed abruptly from Her Grace's service, nor was she the last."

This turnover in ladies in waiting, and accusations of sleeping with the king, could actually be the pretext for sending off an ally with a hidden baby. I am mindful that not all of the Aerys/Rhaella babies were swapped out, so there may have been some ladies who were really sent away for cause, and others who slipped away under false pretenses.

I think we will need to do a mini-timeline showing Rhaella's pregnancies, stillbirths and the deaths of her babies, Joanna's departures and visits to the court (her original departure was after her marriage in 263 but before 266, which is when Jaime and Cersei were born at Casterly Rock), and Aerys' absences (he went to Casterly Rock in 267 and stayed for "the better part of next year"; in 277 he was kept away for half a year during the defiance of Duskendale). In 272, Aerys asks Joanna whether nursing her now six-year-old children ruined her breasts, so we can infer that the king didn't sleep with Joanna from 266 to 272, at least. (But this may be beside the point, unless the point is to prove that Joanna left King's Landing for reasons other than an affair with the king.)

Bonus if we can figure out which other ladies in waiting were present in Rhaella's circle during this period. Or would a Maester be entrusted with taking away a child to safety? Certainly a Septa would be a good candidate. A Silent Sister?

We may also have to speculate who was killing off Aerys and Rhaella's babies, and what their motive was. When Jaehaerys "died," Aerys suspected a wet nurse and then his own mistress (who is not named). This may involve determining what changed in 276, when Viserys was born robust and healthy and grew up as a survivor until he was "crowned" by Drogo.

And we should look at all the evidence we have about Darkstar. The hint you discovered about being weaned on venom is a great piece of evidence, but there may be other meaningful lines.

Not surprisingly, I have this sneaking suspicion that there is also going to be an Ashara Dayne (lady in waiting to Princess Elia) connection, after Ser Barristan's musing that Dany looks so much like Ashara, just before he notes that Ashara's daughter was stillborn. Ashara was "not long at court" before the 281 tournament at Harrenhal, so she probably wouldn't have been involved in any Darkstar / Jaehaerys swap seven years earlier.

I've also noted elsewhere in the forum that I think Good Queen Alysanne may have had a baby out of wedlock during the two "estrangements" that lasted "a year or two" during her marriage to Jaehaerys I (World book, p. 60). Because GRRM seems to use historic events to foreshadow events of the current generation, the fate of a hidden baby from Alysanne's arc could reveal things about contemporary babies.

You know, the Targ women may have had a long history of swapping out babies. If they realized that inbreeding was causing their children to become physically weak and/or insane, they may have had a tradition of secret baby swaps to try to keep their descendants healthy, in spite of the determination of Targ men to keep the bloodline "pure".

[The Commentator]

Oh what an interesting topic.  Baby swapping.

I agree on Darkstar.  He's got possibilities but he's not a full Targaryen.  His hair and the dark streak is very similar to another half-Targ, Prince Baelor.  He was half-Dornish.  Darkstar is a possible Targaryen bastard.  He cannot be legit unless he is the son of Aerys and Rhaella.  Which he is not.  He's a bastard of Aerys with a Dornish woman.

Baby swapping is risky.  The child could lose his or her inheritance.  It might be difficult to prove later on the child's identity.  A bastard does not stand to inherit so it's not a big deal in their case but the parent of a legitimate child would have to have very good reasons to swap babies.  

 

[The Fattest Leech]

5 hours ago, Seams said:

 

You know, the Targ women may have had a long history of swapping out babies. If they realized that inbreeding was causing their children to become physically weak and/or insane, they may have had a tradition of secret baby swaps to try to keep their descendants healthy, in spite of the determination of Targ men to keep the bloodline "pure".

 

This would be hilarious and such poetic justice on top!
A world of illegitimate bastards ruling Planetos instead of the "pure born legits" of an inbred society.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

5 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Oh what an interesting topic.  Baby swapping.

I agree on Darkstar.  He's got possibilities but he's not a full Targaryen.  His hair and the dark streak is very similar to another half-Targ, Prince Baelor.  He was half-Dornish.  Darkstar is a possible Targaryen bastard.  He cannot be legit unless he is the son of Aerys and Rhaella.  Which he is not.  He's a bastard of Aerys with a Dornish woman.

Baby swapping is risky.  The child could lose his or her inheritance.  It might be difficult to prove later on the child's identity.  A bastard does not stand to inherit so it's not a big deal in their case but the parent of a legitimate child would have to have very good reasons to swap babies.  

 

Baelor had all dark hair. There's no parallel between him and Darkstar. A mirroring type argument could be made for Baelor's son Valarr though--he had his mother's (we assume) brown hair with a streak of silver.

Ran said Darkstar is no one's bastard, so the idea of him being Aerys' son but not Rhaella's is out.

[Luddagain]

Baby swapping is important, given that grumpkins get an early mention in GoT. Tyrion is seen as a grumpkin (he may do a switch or too).

There are so many parentless kids that anything is possible.

I am assuming that it was a joke re Catelyn BUT I rather think Robb is the son of Brandon. They MUST have a Stark parent or there would not have been a direwolf for them - so that rules out the Catelyn straying idea - unless Baelish is a Stark YUK. The only possible children that Catelyn could have had that are not Ned's are Robb and Sansa.  I think we can safely assume that Arya, Brandon and Rickon are Ned's

[Lord Wraith]

6 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Baelor had all dark hair. There's no parallel between him and Darkstar. A mirroring type argument could be made for Baelor's son Valarr though--he had his mother's (we assume) brown hair with a streak of silver.

Ran said Darkstar is no one's bastard, so the idea of him being Aerys' son but not Rhaella's is out.

So he is a Faceless Man's bastards?

 

JK that is why I think he could be Jaherys thanks to Ran which puts a end to any bastard theories.

[Lord Wraith]

16 hours ago, Seams said:

Sounds good to me. Let's try PM, if you're game.

I had a bit written before my old laptop/tablet died. Lots of subtle hints that most people wouldn't catch.

8 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

This would be hilarious and such poetic justice on top!
A world of illegitimate bastards ruling Planetos instead of the "pure born legits" of an inbred society.

I admit this makes me lol.

2 hours ago, Luddagain said:

Baby swapping is important, given that grumpkins get an early mention in GoT. Tyrion is seen as a grumpkin (he may do a switch or too).

There are so many parentless kids that anything is possible.

I am assuming that it was a joke re Catelyn BUT I rather think Robb is the son of Brandon. They MUST have a Stark parent or there would not have been a direwolf for them - so that rules out the Catelyn straying idea - unless Baelish is a Stark YUK. The only possible children that Catelyn could have had that are not Ned's are Robb and Sansa.  I think we can safely assume that Arya, Brandon and Rickon are Ned's

I had forgotten about grumpkins stealing kids, also if there hasn't been a swap at the Water Gardens then I will be shocked.

[GloubieBoulga]

On 09/03/2017 at 6:15 PM, Seams said:

I agree with your idea that wildlings and Starks are the same blood, or related, anyway. The Starks may have special blood because of all the old northern kings they defeated (and whose daughters they married) but I agree that there is a common origin for the Starks and the Free Folk, and I think we will learn about it when we learn more about Hard Home.

perhaps also with Rickon and Davos at Skagos. I'm very curious about the goats and their story, I must confess. 

 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

12 hours ago, Lord Wraith said:

So he is a Faceless Man's bastards?

 

JK that is why I think he could be Jaherys thanks to Ran which puts a end to any bastard theories.

LOL! Good one, LW!

Yes, Jaehaerys is the only baby swap that holds up for Darkstar. Otherwise he is the trueborn son of...some people, one of whom was a Dayne.

[The Commentator]

On 3/10/2017 at 4:53 PM, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Baelor had all dark hair. There's no parallel between him and Darkstar. A mirroring type argument could be made for Baelor's son Valarr though--he had his mother's (we assume) brown hair with a streak of silver.

Ran said Darkstar is no one's bastard, so the idea of him being Aerys' son but not Rhaella's is out.

Baelor had a streak of light in his hair.  Maybe George didn't tell our friend Ran everything.  

[Lady Blizzardborn]

2 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Baelor had a streak of light in his hair.  Maybe George didn't tell our friend Ran everything.  

Text on that please? Been a while since I read The Hedge Knight but I don't recall a streak of gold or silver mentioned in his hair.

Ran is the one George calls when he can't remember something about the story or characters, or Planetos. I'm sure he doesn't know absolutely everything but there's no reason he would have said specifically that Darkstar is "no one's bastard" if he didn't know that was true. He's very sparing with his inside info, and so far as I know he's never misled us. 

 

[Aetta]

On 3/9/2017 at 8:37 PM, John Suburbs said:

Maybe GRRM was switched at birth and he really isn't who he thinks he is.

I'm picturing a woman named Ed in a housing project in Bayonne yelling "I need a baby, H.I.!"

ETA-Not exactly swapping, but it's what I pictured nonetheless. She looked like Holly Hunter.

[Pray Harder]

On 3/8/2017 at 11:09 PM, Lord Wraith said:

Darkstar as Jaerherys has been something I have been mulling over since the release of the World Book. All the other kids who died or were stillborn are all grouped up then Jaeherys gets like three paragraphs. Ages fit, has the look, and the attitude.

Also he was apparently poisoned by one of Aery's lovers. Darkstar was weaned on venom. Martin is being coy with us again.

Also I think Rhaelle smuggling her baby to the Princess of Dorne and getting it appear to be poisoned seems plausible to me. After all the result was Aerys penance and he stops taking lovers after that. Then a few years later we get Viserys after Aerys became less of an arse.

Also would explain a great deal about Doran's plans if he had a Targaryen hidden away in the mountains of Dorne.

Maybe THIS is why Doran regards him as the most dangerous man in Dorne?

[Lord Wraith]

16 minutes ago, Pray Harder said:

Maybe THIS is why Doran regards him as the most dangerous man in Dorne?

Certainly could be.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

22 minutes ago, Pray Harder said:

Maybe THIS is why Doran regards him as the most dangerous man in Dorne?

One of several possibilities. We know little enough about Darkstar that it could be a number of things that make him so dangerous. We all know it isn't his sword skills.

[Pray Harder]

2 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

One of several possibilities. We know little enough about Darkstar that it could be a number of things that make him so dangerous. We all know it isn't his sword skills.

Certainly one of the storylines I'm looking forward to in Winds... what is this guy's deal? 

[talvikorppi]

I just feel sorry for all the swapped babies. You know, the ones who took the hit for the precious Targ babies, dying in infancy...

Sorry, OP, but I don't think baby-swapping was established practice. I think the point of the ONLY case of baby-swapping we know for sure of - Jon forcing Gilly to leave her baby behind to take Dalla's baby to safety - isn't meant to illustrate a common baby-swapping practice but to show how Jon has "killed the boy" and is prepared to use his power to do quite horrific things for the greater good as he sees it.

I got TWOIAF for Christmas, and among 300 years of Targ history, there isn't a single hint of baby-swaps. Were they so successful nobody noticed? Swap an infant, swap back a toddler? Just, no. And babies don't all look alike, you know.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

12 hours ago, talvikorppi said:

I just feel sorry for all the swapped babies. You know, the ones who took the hit for the precious Targ babies, dying in infancy...

Sorry, OP, but I don't think baby-swapping was established practice. I think the point of the ONLY case of baby-swapping we know for sure of - Jon forcing Gilly to leave her baby behind to take Dalla's baby to safety - isn't meant to illustrate a common baby-swapping practice but to show how Jon has "killed the boy" and is prepared to use his power to do quite horrific things for the greater good as he sees it.

I got TWOIAF for Christmas, and among 300 years of Targ history, there isn't a single hint of baby-swaps. Were they so successful nobody noticed? Swap an infant, swap back a toddler? Just, no. And babies don't all look alike, you know.

I agree in general with this.

I see it as post-shadowing for Varys' baby swap story. Or...maybe it could qualify as foreshadowing because the switch at the Wall happens before we learn Varys' version of history. It lends potential legitimacy to Varys' tale.

The baby swap was not horrific if it saves little Aemon, because it should save Gilly's child as well...there's no point burning a kid with no king's blood. Granted Jon can't tell anyone at the moment, but the original plan would have kept both children safe.