Areo Hotah and Ser Arys Oakheart

[Ser Snowflake]

I'm not doubting the fighting skills of Areo Hotah. He is a huge man with a big sharp Axe, who is singularly devoted to Prince Doran. I get that.

With that said, I think that he is overrated when it comes to his martial ability. Sure he took down Ser Arys.....but how impressive is it to take down a man who was twice hit by crossbow bolts and knocked off of his horse? He was rising from the dirt when Hotah's axe took off his head.

 Similarly people underestimate Ser Arys' martial ability. We have no idea how good of a fighter he is. Sure Areo sizes him up and thinks that Ser Balon would be tougher, but is it true? Syrio Forel doesn't look like he's a tough fighter, but he took down a bunch of guys in armor, armed only with a stick. Looks can be deceiving.

At the moment of Ser Arys' death, he had sworn to support Myrcella as Queen of the 7K, a foolish act for sure, but once he made that pledge, he was bound by his oath to die defending her.....and that is just what he did. Once Arianne's foolish plot got discovered, the Kingsguard Knight had no choice but to charge the crossbow men to defend his queen. KG do not surrender and should never let their Sovereigns be taken alive. That is what cowards like Ser Borros Blount do.

 Ser Arys performed his KG duty with zero hesitation and went out like a boss. Arianne thinks that he was foolish, but what does she know of chivalry and knighthood in general? Ser Balon would have died in the same manner if he was in the same situation. Ser Arys was outnumbered and covered by foes who had ranged weapons.

Areo may be tougher....we just don't know. If the two warriors would have fought in single combat, we would know with certainty who is the tougher fighter.

What do you think?

[aryagonnakill#2]

It's a fair assessment, but I think the fact that Arys makes bad decisions would probably count against him.  Perhaps he would tire himself early, perhaps he would leave himself open, etc etc.  Experience counts and people have very high opinions of Hotah.  I think Darkstar will do him in tho.

[James Steller]

Arys, despite his sincerest efforts, is ultimately ruled by his emotions. It makes him vulnerable.

And since we're talking about Balon as well, the man is the son of a marcher lord, and a veteran of the Blackwater. I don't doubt for a second that he will provide harder to kill than Arys, and frankly I hope he survives the story to serve a king who deserves his service.

[Dorian Martell's son]

4 hours ago, The Pimp that was Promised said:

What do you think?

How can fictional fighters be "overrated?" I mean, technically, gregor is overrated as he lost to a 40+ year old Oberyn who had been drinking. Jaime, the vaunted kingslayer was bested by a 15 year old boy. The author will have his characters do what they do. That is all  

[Ser Snowflake]

1 hour ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

How can fictional fighters be "overrated?" I mean, technically, gregor is overrated as he lost to a 40+ year old Oberyn who had been drinking. Jaime, the vaunted kingslayer was bested by a 15 year old boy. The author will have his characters do what they do. That is all  

You ask how can fictional fighters be overrated? Given what we know about two fighters, one can come to a fair conclusion on who would probably win in a one on one. I'm pretty sure Pod would beat Hot Pie, or Sandor would beat Tommen based on what we know about the characters. In my OP, I was referring to most of the poster's low opinion of Arys' fighting ability and high opinion of Areo Hotah's ability based upon an encounter in AFFC.

I don't think there is enough textual evidence to favor one over the other in a single combatbecause the said fight was not a fair fight, and I suspect that Arys wanted to die because he was ashamed of his participation in the Dornish Princess's stupid plot.

 

Gregor went up against the Red Viper, one of the most renown fighters in the world. The man founded his own sellsword Company and was known for dueling. All things considered, the two combatants were evenly matched in a classic match of size vs speed.

The Kingslayer didn't lose in a single combat with Robb....he got lured into a trap by a superior commander and lost a battle. Jaime would have destroyed Robb one on one

[The Mountain That Flies]

17 hours ago, James Steller said:

Arys, despite his sincerest efforts, is ultimately ruled by his emotions. It makes him vulnerable.

And since we're talking about Balon as well, the man is the son of a marcher lord, and a veteran of the Blackwater. I don't doubt for a second that he will provide harder to kill than Arys, and frankly I hope he survives the story to serve a king who deserves his service.

Agreed. Balon's resume (which also includes nearly winning the archery contest at the Hand's Tourney) is a lot more impressive than Arys', and Hotah's estimation is likely correct.

As to the OP, I would assume Hotah is a bit overrated because we have no record of him being tested since he came to Dorne, but that's not really definitive proof. I don't know enough about medieval combat to speculate about the effectiveness of a giant axe in a 1v1 duel, but it would seem to me that someone could do to Horah what Oberyn did to Gregor, though Hotah is likely a smarter fighter than the Mountain.

[Dorian Martell's son]

11 hours ago, The Pimp that was Promised said:

You ask how can fictional fighters be overrated? Given what we know about two fighters, one can come to a fair conclusion on who would probably win in a one on one. I'm pretty sure Pod would beat Hot Pie, or Sandor would beat Tommen based on what we know about the characters. In my OP, I was referring to most of the poster's low opinion of Arys' fighting ability and high opinion of Areo Hotah's ability based upon an encounter in AFFC.

I don't think there is enough textual evidence to favor one over the other in a single combat because the said fight was not a fair fight, and I suspect that Arys wanted to die because he was ashamed of his participation in the Dornish Princess's stupid plot.

I see that.  Arianne thought Arys wanted to die. That is what the author wanted to convey to the readers

11 hours ago, The Pimp that was Promised said:

Gregor went up against the Red Viper, one of the most renown fighters in the world. The man founded his own sellsword Company and was known for dueling. All things considered, the two combatants were evenly matched in a classic match of size vs speed.

The Kingslayer didn't lose in a single combat with Robb....he got lured into a trap by a superior commander and lost a battle. Jaime would have destroyed Robb one on one

With Gregor and Oberyn, we never see the viper fight, and we only see gregor fight once, from a distance. All we really know about both of them is what the author gives us a back story. The same goes for Jaime. We  see him fight in a tourney and lose, and we see him ambush Ned, but as a solo fighter, all we have that he is skilled is what the author tells. So that is why I don't think we can say a character is an overrated fighter

[cgrav]

"Chance" happens to fictional characters as much as real people. Skill only goes so far and certainly doesn't compensate for bad decisions.

On the other hand, you can just as easily say that the best fighter is the one who survives. As far as treachery and chance are concerned,  "All's fair".

[Ser Snowflake]

3 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

I see that.  Arianne thought Arys wanted to die. That is what the author wanted to convey to the readers

With Gregor and Oberyn, we never see the viper fight, and we only see gregor fight once, from a distance. All we really know about both of them is what the author gives us a back story. The same goes for Jaime. We  see him fight in a tourney and lose, and we see him ambush Ned, but as a solo fighter, all we have that he is skilled is what the author tells. So that is why I don't think we can say a character is an overrated fighter

Good point about Jaime. We never really see him do anything martial (outside of defeating Bran at the battle of the abandoned tower)...he got unhorsed by Sandor, he lost to a girl in single combat, lost a battle to a green boy fighting his first battle, lost sparring matches to ser Addam and Ser Payne....etc.

His highlights off screen is Only a little better....Crossing swords with the Smiling Knight and cutting through Robb's personal guard seems impressive......too bad we never get to see that.

[Dorian Martell's son]

8 minutes ago, The Pimp that was Promised said:

His highlights off screen is Only a little better....Crossing swords with the Smiling Knight and cutting through Robb's personal guard seems impressive......too bad we never get to see that.

Exactly. He talks about he would beat the mountain, loras or any other hot as shit fighter, but what we see is him getting beat and captured.

[cgrav]

8 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Exactly. He talks about he would beat the mountain, loras or any other hot as shit fighter, but what we see is him getting beat and captured.

I think part of the arc is that Jaime's a bit past his prime. It helps set up the identity crisis that consumes the rest of his plot. And maybe he's as amazing as reputed, but his circumstances certainly aren't playing to his strengths as a fighter. 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

If Arys was so concerned with protecting Myrcella he should have been with her, making sure no one took a shot at her. What he did was suicide by cop, in a manner of speaking. He couldn't return to King's Landing, and he couldn't abandon his KG position, so he took the third option.

Hotah's abilities are a moot point.

Single combat doesn't determine who is tougher, which is a subjective thing anyway and has different meanings. If both combatants are having a good day then single combat will determine who is quicker, who has the most stamina, who is stronger maybe, and eventually who is more deadly. 

[Lord Wraith]

7 hours ago, The Pimp that was Promised said:

Good point about Jaime. We never really see him do anything martial (outside of defeating Bran at the battle of the abandoned tower)...he got unhorsed by Sandor, he lost to a girl in single combat, lost a battle to a green boy fighting his first battle, lost sparring matches to ser Addam and Ser Payne....etc.

His highlights off screen is Only a little better....Crossing swords with the Smiling Knight and cutting through Robb's personal guard seems impressive......too bad we never get to see that.

However we get Barristan and other telling us Jaime was incredibly good. Jousting is not swordfighting. Also just losing to Brienne with your hands tied after being in a dungeon for a year is not indicitive of his skill IMO.

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Some of them had been training for the fighting pits when Daenerys Targaryen took Meereen and freed them from their chains. Those had had a good acquaintance with sword and spear and battle-axe even before Ser Barristan got hold of them. A few might well be ready. The boy from the Basilisk Isles, for a start. Tumco Lho. Black as maester's ink he was, but fast and strong, the best natural swordsman Selmy had seen since Jaime Lannister. Larraq as well. The Lash. Ser Barristan did not approve of his fighting style, but there was no doubting his skills. Larraq had years of work ahead of him before he mastered proper knightly weapons, sword and lance and mace, but he was deadly with his whip and trident. The old knight had warned him that the whip would be useless against an armored foe … until he saw how Larraq used it, snapping it around the legs of his opponents to yank them off their feet. No knight as yet, but a fierce fighter.

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Brienne remembered her fight with Jaime Lannister in the woods. It had been all that she could do to keep his blade at bay. He was weak from his imprisonment, and chained at the wrists. No knight in the Seven Kingdoms could have stood against him at his full strength, with no chains to hamper him. Jaime had done many wicked things, but the man could fight! His maiming had been monstrously cruel. It was one thing to slay a lion, another to hack his paw off and leave him broken and bewildered.