What is the Others plan?

[The Great and Mighty Poo]

8 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Lord Varys

You do like your sweeping statements of opinion presented as fact. Who are you (or I) to decide what is realistic or sensible in the context of a magical system that we know very little about? Who decides whether Hodor's mental state cannot be caused by Bran alone, without the link to the Black Gate?

I guess I am not totally against it being the Black Gate that he holds. But again, your assertions that Bran has to stay in the cave because Bloodraven and the Children stayed there have no basis in evidence. The Children were driven North of the Wall over the millenia. And Bloodraven had to find them to learn the art of greenseeing, hence his journey to the cave.

Bran is young enough not be bonded to a tree yet, and can choose where he wants to settle. Once the Wall falls, that could be anywhere.

As for deciding what makes sense in his escape from the cave and what doesn't, well, again, that's just your opinion. A journey down the river for a few hundred miles, coming out closer to the Wall or perhaps even beyond it sounds quite feasible. Or perhaps it emerges at Hardhome, where he takes a ship to Eastwatch or even Skagos.

Or maybe an orverland journey, protected by his magic.

The truth is, we don't know what he will be capable of at that point.

There are some quotes further up that basically foreshadow hardhome getting attacked. A really interesting way for that to happen if it was a cause effect by Bran and company. 

 

Just a random thought I had(sounded better in my head) when I read that part.

[Free Northman Reborn]

The point is, if Hodor can make it to the Black Gate in this scenario, then it must by necessity involve a journey to get there, whether overland or underground. So if Hodor can get there, why not Bran along with Hodor?

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Lord Varys

You do like your sweeping statements of opinion presented as fact. Who are you (or I) to decide what is realistic or sensible in the context of a magical system that we know very little about? Who decides whether Hodor's mental state cannot be caused by Bran alone, without the link to the Black Gate?

Well, for one the very fact of the nature of the weirwood and their magic as described in ADwD. That establishes that the trees perceive time differently. 

Spoiler

And it is no stretch at all to realize that Hodor's damage must come from him being forced to perceive just as the trees are. Not just see it the way they do - as a greenseer can - but really perceive it. 

Now, it might be that there are other ways something of that sort might happen but you must admit that the Black Gate is by way the best candidate for that.

Spoiler

I'm also pretty sure it will be Bran who is doing the actual holding, not Hodor. He will be using his body. Hodor will become more and more a part of Bran as he is slowly reducing him to be nothing but his second body. Skinchangers merge with with their animals, and thus Bran is also merging with Hodor.

 

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I guess I am not totally against it being the Black Gate that he holds. But again, your assertions that Bran has to stay in the cave because Bloodraven and the Children stayed there have no basis in evidence. The Children were driven North of the Wall over the millenia. And Bloodraven had to find them to learn the art of greenseeing, hence his journey to the cave.

I'm was talking about the meta-level here. Imagine you are George, and you are writing the story you would like to read. Wouldn't it make so much more sense not to cripple Bran, not to make the last greenseer some Targaryen bastard, and not to have him travel at the far end of the world to get his lessons - rather than, say, underneath Winterfell itself? Or in the Neck?

It was George who decided that the Children and the last greenseer had to be beyond the Wall. He made that world.

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Bran is young enough not be bonded to a tree yet, and can choose where he wants to settle. Once the Wall falls, that could be anywhere.

We don't really know what process began when he ate the weirwood paste. And we don't know whether greenseers can be (really) powerful while they are not literally connected to a tree.

The fact that the First Men of old made short work of the Children and their greenseers despite the fact that the latter seem to be pretty powerful makes a lot more sense if they were actually immobile and always hiding beneath a weirwood grove. Then you only need to find one of those, destroy all the weirwoods, and dig the helpless greenseer out to kill him. And one assumes that's how the First Men and the Andals took care of them.

If they could run away they would have been literally invincible.

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As for deciding what makes sense in his escape from the cave and what doesn't, well, again, that's just your opinion. A journey down the river for a few hundred miles, coming out closer to the Wall or perhaps even beyond it sounds quite feasible. Or perhaps it emerges at Hardhome, where he takes a ship to Eastwatch or even Skagos.

The very idea of a navigable underground river isn't very believable. And how utterly convenient would it be if such a river wouldn't force the people using it (on what boat, exactly, the Children don't make boats and ships) not once to swim or dive because the cave is getting too narrow. Bran can neither swim nor dive. He should not even survive it for long if he falls into cold weather under the present weather conditions.

And a river to Hardhome? Have you checked how far that would be? What comes next? A flying carpet? A helicopter?

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Or maybe an orverland journey, protected by his magic.

Nothing indicates greenseer can create anti-Others energy shields. 

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The truth is, we don't know what he will be capable of at that point.

We can make pretty good guesses, though.

39 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

The point is, if Hodor can make it to the Black Gate in this scenario, then it must by necessity involve a journey to get there, whether overland or underground. So if Hodor can get there, why not Bran along with Hodor?

If Bran leaves the cave again he will be hunted. But Hodor, Meera, and Jojen are considerably less important. And again - Bran can be everywhere if he wants to, especially if Hodor and some weirwoods are around. He doesn't have to move his body to be with other people or talk to them. Why on earth to you think he got the abilities he got?

I'm not completely opposed to Bran returning to Winterfell, perhaps even in another body, a whole body in which he can grow old as a healthy man. There might be no longer a need for a human greenseer after the Others are destroyed and then he actually could become the Lord of Winterfell.

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

18 hours ago, Orphalesion said:

I assume it's not so much the material but the magic inherent in the wall that keeps the Ohters north.

Yes, a Wall of Stone (assuming the same dimensions) would have been infinitely better, but would also have been infinitely more difficult to create. We can assume that after the Long Night there weren't enough Children and/or Giant left to create a magical, giant stone wall, so Ice had to do. It's farily hard in such large quantities.We know that the Children are able to manipulate water.

Also, unless I'm completely forgetting something the Others haven't been portrayed as possessing specific mastery over ice beyond what you noted, so an Ice barrier would, from what we know, be effective against them. After all stone/metal barriers are effective against humans.

I don't think the Others created the Wall, it clearly keeps them from going south. If they had created it they would have included a sort of backdoor for them to slip through if needed.

I don't have time right now to read all the latest in this thread, but I do want to point something out: we don't actually know that the Wall presents anything more than a physical barrier to the Others. We've never seen one try and fail to pass it.

The only thing we can say is that the Wall presents an inconstant barrier to mind powers: Jon can't sense Ghost when he's on the other side, and it seems like the wights in AGOT can't pass through under their own steam, i.e. they need to be carried through while unconscious. (Like in that old sci-fi short story "Arena", which I believe was made into a Star Trek episode or some shit.)

Which raises two interesting questions:

1. How come Bran can communicate with Theon from beyond the Wall? I'd assume it's an underground weirwood connection, except that Bloodraven says eventually Bran's sight won't be tied to the trees.

2. How did the wights reanimate south of the Wall, and what was animating them? A time-lapsed spell? Their own malign consciousness? Or something else?

[Free Northman Reborn]

9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, for one the very fact of the nature of the weirwood and their magic as described in ADwD. That establishes that the trees perceive time differently. 

  Reveal hidden contents

And it is no stretch at all to realize that Hodor's damage must come from him being forced to perceive just as the trees are. Not just see it the way they do - as a greenseer can - but really perceive it. 

Now, it might be that there are other ways something of that sort might happen but you must admit that the Black Gate is by way the best candidate for that.

  Reveal hidden contents

I'm also pretty sure it will be Bran who is doing the actual holding, not Hodor. He will be using his body. Hodor will become more and more a part of Bran as he is slowly reducing him to be nothing but his second body. Skinchangers merge with with their animals, and thus Bran is also merging with Hodor.

 

I'm was talking about the meta-level here. Imagine you are George, and you are writing the story you would like to read. Wouldn't it make so much more sense not to cripple Bran, not to make the last greenseer some Targaryen bastard, and not to have him travel at the far end of the world to get his lessons - rather than, say, underneath Winterfell itself? Or in the Neck?

It was George who decided that the Children and the last greenseer had to be beyond the Wall. He made that world.

We don't really know what process began when he ate the weirwood paste. And we don't know whether greenseers can be (really) powerful while they are not literally connected to a tree.

The fact that the First Men of old made short work of the Children and their greenseers despite the fact that the latter seem to be pretty powerful makes a lot more sense if they were actually immobile and always hiding beneath a weirwood grove. Then you only need to find one of those, destroy all the weirwoods, and dig the helpless greenseer out to kill him. And one assumes that's how the First Men and the Andals took care of them.

If they could run away they would have been literally invincible.

The very idea of a navigable underground river isn't very believable. And how utterly convenient would it be if such a river wouldn't force the people using it (on what boat, exactly, the Children don't make boats and ships) not once to swim or dive because the cave is getting too narrow. Bran can neither swim nor dive. He should not even survive it for long if he falls into cold weather under the present weather conditions.

And a river to Hardhome? Have you checked how far that would be? What comes next? A flying carpet? A helicopter?

Nothing indicates greenseer can create anti-Others energy shields. 

We can make pretty good guesses, though.

If Bran leaves the cave again he will be hunted. But Hodor, Meera, and Jojen are considerably less important. And again - Bran can be everywhere if he wants to, especially if Hodor and some weirwoods are around. He doesn't have to move his body to be with other people or talk to them. Why on earth to you think he got the abilities he got?

I'm not completely opposed to Bran returning to Winterfell, perhaps even in another body, a whole body in which he can grow old as a healthy man. There might be no longer a need for a human greenseer after the Others are destroyed and then he actually could become the Lord of Winterfell.

Regarding the Meta argument:

The main reason Bran had to go North of the Wall is the same reason Rickon went to Skagos. Namely that they had to be out of the way for the events in the North to unfold.

You couldn't have Bran sitting in Winterfell all this time, while the Boltons took occupation of it. Bran and Rickon had to be as far removed from the main sequence as events as possible, in order to play no part in it until the appointed time.

[Free Northman Reborn]

3 minutes ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

I don't have time right now to read all the latest in this thread, but I do want to point something out: we don't actually know that the Wall presents anything more than a physical barrier to the Others. We've never seen one try and fail to pass it.

The only thing we can say is that the Wall presents an inconstant barrier to mind powers: Jon can't sense Ghost when he's on the other side, and it seems like the wights in AGOT can't pass through under their own steam, i.e. they need to be carried through while unconscious. (Like in that old sci-fi short story "Arena", which I believe was made into a Star Trek episode or some shit.)

Which raises two interesting questions:

1. How come Bran can communicate with Theon from beyond the Wall? I'd assume it's an underground weirwood connection, except that Bloodraven says eventually Bran's sight won't be tied to the trees.

2. How did the wights reanimate south of the Wall, and what was animating them? A time-lapsed spell? Their own malign consciousness? Or something else?

Bloodraven could communicate with Bran too while Bran was in Winterfell. Just like he controlled the mother direwolf to head to Winterfell and warged into Mormont's raven at Castle Black.

[Leo of House Cartel]

15 hours ago, devilish said:

 I won't go in detail about my beliefs regarding the others, how they were created and what kickstarted their return. It would take me pages to write. What I do know that the so called necromancers appeared in Westeros at a rather delicate stage of the realm and since their arrival they did nothing but causing more deaths. The war was pretty straightforward. With lion fighting against wolf until both were too weak to hold the Stag and the Rose from taking power. In Renly the kingdom would have had a king that loves politics and see value in enemies bending the knee. Yet, no Melisandre had to back the weakest and more stubborn of all 5 kings, which in turn would kill the strongest candidate for peace, causing this war to descend into a bloodshed. Stannis campaign costed a quick end to the war, most of the Stormland's army, Balon's death which brought Euron's return and possibly more deaths in the North. With Stannis cycle close to an end I won't be surprised if Melisandre backs a sour Jon Snow who will, most probably, add to the death tally among the NW who betrayed him, the Wildlings whom he will lead to battle and the Bolton loyalists, weakening the North further.

All the resurrected are basically doing the same thing from Lady Stoneheart to Sir Robert Strong who will probably keep the single most destructive living person in Westeros alive (Cersei)

For a religion who is aware of the return of the Others and their power over the death, they do seem like adding more bodies for them to resurrect. Which sort of contradicts what they are 'fighting against'

Well said. 

[Lord Varys]

4 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

The main reason Bran had to go North of the Wall is the same reason Rickon went to Skagos. Namely that they had to be out of the way for the events in the North to unfold.

Bran and Rickon could have hidden at any place in the North, chiefly the Neck. The Boltons didn't go in there now, or did they? And Rickon could have been just as safe in the Last Hearth, Widow's Watch, or White Harbor if George had wanted it so. If Lord Wyman can fake Davos' death he could also hide Rickon.

But that's simply not the story George wants to tell. Rickon was sent to Skagos because he wants to tell another story, a story where the Bolton situation is going to be resolved long before returns to the mainland of Westeros.

4 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

You couldn't have Bran sitting in Winterfell all this time, while the Boltons took occupation of it. Bran and Rickon had to be as far removed from the main sequence as events as possible, in order to play no part in it until the appointed time.

That certainly could have worked. Say, they would have hidden at the deepest level of the crypts, only to stumble on a hidden glamored door opening up to a cave system where the Children of the Forest still dwell. That could have easily been in Winterfell itself. Roose is now controlling Winterfell but nobody investigated the crypts from top to bottom.

Bran can now join the fray at any moment he wishes. He does not have to show up in person to do stuff. Just as we don't have to meet in person to talk about the series thanks to modern technology.

And, again, I'm not completely opposed to the idea that Bran might come back after all is said and done. But it would make much sense for him to do what he can where he is right now instead of going on a stupid journey again.

Spoiler

You have to keep in mind that the TV show seems to have really struggled with this Bran concept. They had him be physically there in visions of the past, and so forth, but once that part was over they, most likely, didn't want to use him as speaking through tree faces (something they don't want to do, anyway, it seems) or through the mouths of other people.

But George's Bran clearly has a different story, and seems to be on a more subtle path.

[cgrav]

7 hours ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

 

2. How did the wights reanimate south of the Wall, and what was animating them? A time-lapsed spell? Their own malign consciousness? Or something else?

It was bitter cold when they attacked, so I'd guess that the reanimating force came over top of the wall. The Others can't get through, but it seems that their aura can get around it a little ways. Maybe their magic, like Mel's, is bolstered by the Wall.

The Wall is also described as giving off its own cold (among many other instances of personification), so it could be that it's relationship with the NW is not 100% friendly, or the ward has some loophole. 

And being that the Wall does appear to have some will of its own, its magic is probably more a matter of behavior than logical rules.

[Free Northman Reborn]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Bran and Rickon could have hidden at any place in the North, chiefly the Neck. The Boltons didn't go in there now, or did they? And Rickon could have been just as safe in the Last Hearth, Widow's Watch, or White Harbor if George had wanted it so. If Lord Wyman can fake Davos' death he could also hide Rickon.

But that's simply not the story George wants to tell. Rickon was sent to Skagos because he wants to tell another story, a story where the Bolton situation is going to be resolved long before returns to the mainland of Westeros.

That certainly could have worked. Say, they would have hidden at the deepest level of the crypts, only to stumble on a hidden glamored door opening up to a cave system where the Children of the Forest still dwell. That could have easily been in Winterfell itself. Roose is now controlling Winterfell but nobody investigated the crypts from top to bottom.

Bran can now join the fray at any moment he wishes. He does not have to show up in person to do stuff. Just as we don't have to meet in person to talk about the series thanks to modern technology.

And, again, I'm not completely opposed to the idea that Bran might come back after all is said and done. But it would make much sense for him to do what he can where he is right now instead of going on a stupid journey again.

  Hide contents

You have to keep in mind that the TV show seems to have really struggled with this Bran concept. They had him be physically there in visions of the past, and so forth, but once that part was over they, most likely, didn't want to use him as speaking through tree faces (something they don't want to do, anyway, it seems) or through the mouths of other people.

But George's Bran clearly has a different story, and seems to be on a more subtle path.

Look I obviously completely disagree. I just wonder what your response will be when Bran departs from the cave at the end of the next book. Will it be that that story makes total sense in hindsight, or will it be that Martin should rather have kept Bran in the cave.

I think it is utterly obvious that Bran is not sticking around in the cave for long. Bloodraven himself gave an indication of the duration of his apprenticeship. Maybe 1 year. Maybe 5. And we know that with the skipping of the 5 year gap, the 5 years just became 1. Just like Littlefinger's original assessment of the time required for Cersei to ruin King's Landing changed from 5 years to 1.

 

[Tom Cruise]

Bran isn't staying in the cave.  

 

Back to the door that Hodor's Hodor....  I think the Black Gate is a good option, but I also think the ironwood door to the crypts of winterfell is a good option too.  Can't you just imagine all the old dead kings of winter trying to get out of the crypts, freaking everyone the eff out in the process.  Hold that door!

Sorry, i'm just obsessed with the crypts of Winterfell.  They are the gates to hell afterall...

[aryagonnakill#2]

22 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That doesn't change that you can talk colloquially about a gate as a door, right? 

That would provide us with no explanation of the 

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'Hold the door' conundrum. Hodor holding some non-weirwood door is not going to shatter his mind throughout time.

 

Bran isn't out of the mix in that cave. Far to the contrary, actually. He is more powerful (and much safer) than anybody else. And Bran is not going to play a role in the political field. He is a cripple, and the Northmen do not follow cripples. Nor do they like wargs or other skinchangers.

I believe the weirwood roots dip into the crypts no?

[Lord Varys]

6 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Look I obviously completely disagree. I just wonder what your response will be when Bran departs from the cave at the end of the next book. Will it be that that story makes total sense in hindsight, or will it be that Martin should rather have kept Bran in the cave.

I think it is utterly obvious that Bran is not sticking around in the cave for long. Bloodraven himself gave an indication of the duration of his apprenticeship. Maybe 1 year. Maybe 5. And we know that with the skipping of the 5 year gap, the 5 years just became 1. Just like Littlefinger's original assessment of the time required for Cersei to ruin King's Landing changed from 5 years to 1.

If George has Bran successful leave the cave on some underground river boat or has has return unmolested/alive through dozens of feet of snow and very cold temperatures I will see that as very bad and ridiculous writing. He couldn't sell that in a believable fashion to me.

Winter has come and now the Others should rule the lands with impunity. The idea that a small cripple and his companions could avoid them doesn't make any sense

If it is one year then Bran would not have ended his apprenticeship by the time the series is over. The books only cover weeks and a few months now, not years.

Bloodraven apparently connected with the trees after he finished his apprenticeship, right? Why didn't Bloodraven the greenseer not return to the Watch if you expect Bran to return to Winterfell?

And don't use Bloodraven's age as an excuse. When the man disappeared in 252 AC he was just in his seventies. He could have been back at Castle Black with his vast new knowledge on his 80th nameday.

[Lord Varys]

1 minute ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

I believe the weirwood roots dip into the crypts no?

Not sure what you are meaning by that.

[aryagonnakill#2]

Just now, Lord Varys said:

Not sure what you are meaning by that.

I know that the weirwood roots go into the cave that Bran and co. are in now, and that Hodor brushes up against them.  I thought I remember the same thing from the crypts.  If the Weirwoods unique time properties are required for the event being discussed, than maybe the weirwood roots entering the WF crypts can still provide that.

[Lord Varys]

Just now, aryagonnakill#2 said:

I know that the weirwood roots go into the cave that Bran and co. are in now, and that Hodor brushes up against them.  I thought I remember the same thing from the crypts.  If the Weirwoods unique time properties are required for the event being discussed, than maybe the weirwood roots entering the WF crypts can still provide that.

Ah, okay, but why the hell should Hodor ever again go in those caves, or 

Spoiler

hold their doors (either against forces trying to get it or coming out)?

I don't remember anything about weirwood roots showing up in the crypts, but even if they did - then being there certainly wouldn't be the only feature necessary for the event to happen.

Spoiler

I expect Hodor actually literally/physically merging with the Black Gate, essentially becoming a tree. Keep in mind that this magical gate apparently is sort of sentient/intelligent. It is, most likely, not Bloodraven speaking through it but rather some sort of magical consciousness. And perhaps that has grown weaker overtime and needs either a blood sacrifice (Hodor) to prevent the Others from passing it and the Wall.

 

[cgrav]

57 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

 

I think it is utterly obvious that Bran is not sticking around in the cave for long. Bloodraven himself gave an indication of the duration of his apprenticeship. Maybe 1 year. Maybe 5. And we know that with the skipping of the 5 year gap, the 5 years just became 1.

 

I think that line is actually a little humor by GRRM, referring to how long the next book might take. 

Either way, Bran will not finish his apprenticeship. Bloodraven will die before Bran is "ready", if only because that's how mentor relationships work in literature. Nobody is ready for their ultimate challenge, and that's what makes the story interesting and meaningful.

I'd say it's also valid to wonder if Bran needs to physically leave the cave for his POV to be active elsewhere, whether through greensight or skinchanging.

[Lord Varys]

What little we have heard about TWoW in relation to Bran's plot makes it rather unlikely that Bloodraven is going to die soon. Bran doesn't even know who that guy actually is (and neither do readers who don't read the Dunk & Egg stories).

One has to wonder why the hell Bloodraven is there in the first place. If all it takes to learn the stuff Bran has to learn Bloodraven showing him how to connect to the trees then wouldn't have been the Children enough? Why put a bastard son of Aegon the Unworthy into those caves as the last greenseer if he is going to die quickly?

Spoiler

The show completely dropped the background of the wizard guy, never caring all that much about the magical and mythical aspects of the story. They could afford to kill him the way they did. But I don't see George treating his Bloodraven the same way.

 

[cgrav]

9 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

 

One has to wonder why the hell Bloodraven is there in the first place. If all it takes to learn the stuff Bran has to learn Bloodraven showing him how to connect to the trees then wouldn't have been the Children enough? Why put a bastard son of Aegon the Unworthy into those caves as the last greenseer if he is going to die quickly?

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It cements the connection between the weirwoods and "fire and blood" within the larger system of symbols. Being a Dragon, Warg, and Greenseer all together shows us that they are all just sides of the same die. 

It's also well-hypothesized that the different prominent bloodlines associated with magic are meant to converge again (hence Jon's fortuitous parentage), and Bloodraven sort of foreshadows that. 

[Lord Varys]

54 minutes ago, cgrav said:

It cements the connection between the weirwoods and "fire and blood" within the larger system of symbols. Being a Dragon, Warg, and Greenseer all together shows us that they are all just sides of the same die. 

It's also well-hypothesized that the different prominent bloodlines associated with magic are meant to converge again (hence Jon's fortuitous parentage), and Bloodraven sort of foreshadows that. 

I don't think it makes sense to reduce Bloodraven to some sort of weird foreshadowing of Jon Snow, especially since we have as of yet no hint that Jon will ever become as magically powerful as Bran (who isn't a crossbreed of 'special magical bloodlines'). 

I don't expect Bloodraven necessarily to live until the end of the story but I doubt he has been introduced just to be killed in TWoW. Especially not 

Spoiler

in the ridiculous way we got in the show.