What is the Others plan?

[cgrav]

15 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I don't think it makes sense to reduce Bloodraven to some sort of weird foreshadowing of Jon Snow, especially since we have as of yet no hint that Jon will ever become as magically powerful as Bran (who isn't a crossbreed of 'special magical bloodlines'). 

I don't expect Bloodraven necessarily to live until the end of the story but I doubt he has been introduced just to be killed in TWoW. Especially not 

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in the ridiculous way we got in the show.

 

It's more than Jon-related, because they share in a larger theme of unifying forces that are currently presented as opposing. And that's part of his significance, but I don't know yet just what he will do to be more independently significant. No idea when he'll die, but it wouldn't be a very interesting story if the apprenticeship went just as planned. 

It also sort of mirrors Aemon and Jon - a Targ mentoring a Stark. Though it's flipped with Bran, with regard to the trueborn and bastard status of each.

And I certainly don't want to speculate on how he'll die, let alone that it will be the same as the show. Varamyr's death kinda shows us what warg death looks like, so I wouldn't be surprised if BR just slipped into the omnipresence of the weirnet and kept Bran's ear in an Obi Wan fashion.

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, cgrav said:

It's more than Jon-related, because they share in a larger theme of unifying forces that are currently presented as opposing. And that's part of his significance, but I don't know yet just what he will do to be more independently significant. No idea when he'll die, but it wouldn't be a very interesting story if the apprenticeship went just as planned. 

I don't think Bran is an apprentice in any conventional sense. Bloodraven is neither Obi-Wan nor Yoda. He does not have to die for Bran to take over his mission because Bran seems to be already more powerful than Brynden ever was. That means that only Bran might be able to do what Bran can do (talk through the trees, talk through time, make the trees move, and use animals as weapons on a large scale), and Bloodraven could simply stand aside/advise him without him actually dying.

If he dies, though, I'm pretty sure Bran himself will kill him (because they have a conflict how to proceed). A natural death would take a very long time if those rotting former greenseers are any indication, who are still at least partially alive.

 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

What if the Others have no plan? What if they're just winging it?

Other #5: So, what's the plan?

Other #127: What plan? We're supposed to have a plan? Hey Terry! Did you know anything about a plan?

Terry: No. I mean, Puddles said something but he never mentioned any details or anything. 

Other #12: Do you think we need a plan?

Terry: Nah.

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

Why do people think the ridiculous "hold the door" nonsense will actually happen in the book? GRRM didn't confirm that at all

[rotting sea cow]

Didn't see this answer before

On 3/13/2017 at 2:41 PM, Lord Varys said:

Not sure if this was the case during the rule of Gendel and Gorne, the Horned Lord, and Bael the Bard.

We don't know really. Apparently the annals that Sam reviewed said few things about the Others, but they appear less frequently than one would expect. I think it would be interesting to have some stories about it. Same with the situation of the Wall during Aegon conquest.

On 3/13/2017 at 2:41 PM, Lord Varys said:

And even in the days of Joramun the Others would have been less powerful than during the Long Night. And we really don't know who or what the corpse queen was, and I'd be actually pretty surprised if we ever found out. That is not important. Bran should find out what the Others are, what they want, how they can be defeated, and what transpired during the Long Night and the War for the Dawn. That's important. The Night's King is at best some sort of epilogue to the whole thing.

I mean, it can be a real queen to a metaphorical one. It doesn't matter. The important part of the story suggests a connection to the Others and suggests that the NK was making sacrifices to them and debilitating the NW. And the threat was dire enough to warrant an alliance between the wildings and the Starks. And this was not so long after the Long Night. It means to me that the Others have a range of resources to achieve their goals. 

On 3/13/2017 at 2:41 PM, Lord Varys said:

Indeed. I'm pretty sure that horn is either a red herring or pretty much irrelevant.

I'm not sure. First, we had already a herring with the horn that Mel burned. Second, of all belongings that Sam took during his travel to Oldtown, he was able to keep only the horn, meaning it has some importance. And we know that Sam is now with a very queer company, where we expect that relevant things will happen.

Now, the horn is damaged and needs to be repaired before.  Who will do it?

I'm not against to the notion that the horn can bring the Wall down. I'm reluctant to accept that it's the only way or will happen without some previous showdown.

 

On 3/13/2017 at 2:41 PM, Lord Varys said:

Perhaps that was the plan after they had reached the Wall and were all stuck there. Keep in mind that winter wasn't yet there, possibly reducing the power of the Others even beyond the Wall. We don't know how many wights they have right now. They might have expected Mance to take care of the NW, claiming his dead as well as the dead Watchmen as wights. Just as they are right now doing with the surviving wildlings.

Presumably they don't make a move to get father down south because they can, as of yet, not do that or feel they are not yet ready.

I'm reaching to the same conclusion. They don't know yet how to pass the Wall, but they are working on it and soon they will know.

On 3/13/2017 at 2:41 PM, Lord Varys said:

Yeah, that's odd, possibly a consequence of the scrapping of the five year gap. I'd assume that Sam did not got around to show the Black Gate to Stannis, but if Stannis returns alive from Winterfell he most likely will take his seat there. Enough time passed (and enough work was done at the Nightfort) for it to be (somewhat) hospitable by now. And depending what happens at Castle Black right now, the Watch might actually be forced to move the headquarters elsewhere. If there is open fighting in Castle Black more buildings might be destroyed.

yeah, maybe GRRM forgot about it? (same with Robb's will?)

Anyway, it should play a role afterwards. I wonder what Stannis will do after taking Winterfell.

 

 

 

 

[Free Northman Reborn]

14 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I don't think Bran is an apprentice in any conventional sense. Bloodraven is neither Obi-Wan nor Yoda. He does not have to die for Bran to take over his mission because Bran seems to be already more powerful than Brynden ever was. That means that only Bran might be able to do what Bran can do (talk through the trees, talk through time, make the trees move, and use animals as weapons on a large scale), and Bloodraven could simply stand aside/advise him without him actually dying.

If he dies, though, I'm pretty sure Bran himself will kill him (because they have a conflict how to proceed). A natural death would take a very long time if those rotting former greenseers are any indication, who are still at least partially alive.

 

Or, how about the Others break the ward and wipe out the cave dwellers, before Bran can achieve his full power, forcing Bran to flee back South where he can establish his own base of power at Winterfell.

[Lord Varys]

3 hours ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

Why do people think the ridiculous "hold the door" nonsense will actually happen in the book? GRRM didn't confirm that at all

Because it is pretty evident that this is where Hodor's name comes from.

5 minutes ago, rotting sea cow said:

We don't know really. Apparently the annals that Sam reviewed said few things about the Others, but they appear less frequently than one would expect. I think it would be interesting to have some stories about it. Same with the situation of the Wall during Aegon conquest.

We know that Harren's brother was Lord Commander at that time, and that he ten thousand men.

I'd assume that the days of the Kings-beyond-the-Wall where usually times when the wildlings were pretty powerful and united. Mance was trying to flee to safety, the others did not.

5 minutes ago, rotting sea cow said:

I mean, it can be a real queen to a metaphorical one. It doesn't matter. The important part of the story suggests a connection to the Others and suggests that the NK was making sacrifices to them and debilitating the NW. And the threat was dire enough to warrant an alliance between the wildings and the Starks. And this was not so long after the Long Night. It means to me that the Others have a range of resources to achieve their goals. 

One assumes that Craster's custom of sacrificing to and worshiping the Others was quite common during the Long Night, a means by some fools to prolong their lives.

Since the Night's King was supposedly the thirteenth Lord Commander it would not be unlikely if during his days the memory of the Long Night, the Others, and the dark practices during those days was still very much alive. His queen doesn't need to have been a female Other (something that doesn't seem to exist) or a female wight for them to decide to worship the Others. And the Others could still have gone throughout this entire time despite the fact that the Night's King worshiped them.

In fact, it is difficult to believe that the Wall and the NW would have survived if an Other/wight was actually at the Wall at this time, especially considering that the Night's King apparently was able to take over and rule at the Wall. It took the King of Winter and Joramun to end his reign of terror. The NW itself was helpless against him - and many of the men would have participated in his dark practices, etc.

5 minutes ago, rotting sea cow said:

I'm not sure. First, we had already a herring with the horn that Mel burned. Second, of all belongings that Sam took during his travel to Oldtown, he was able to keep only the horn, meaning it has some importance. And we know that Sam is now with a very queer company, where we expect that relevant things will happen.

Well, even if it was the Horn of Winter then it would be very odd to see it bring down the Wall. It could be used then in a naval battle against Euron, perhaps. Maybe even inadvertently, by Sam sounding it while he is on a Hightower ship. But one really doesn't want to know what's going to happen if Sam wakes the giants in the sea and causes a massive seaquake, tsunamis included.

5 minutes ago, rotting sea cow said:

Now, the horn is damaged and needs to be repaired before.  Who will do it?

Can such horns be repaired at all? I mean, if something is broken in there nobody is going to waste time in gluing it back together. And why would anybody even want to do that?

The horn might just be mentioned because it is a token of Sam's friendship with Jon and intricately connected to the dragonless that killed the Others as well as the mysterious person who hid the stuff at the Fist. That could very well have been Benjen Stark.

5 minutes ago, rotting sea cow said:

I'm reaching to the same conclusion. They don't know yet how to pass the Wall, but they are working on it and soon they will know.

It is not just that, also the fact that they might not be as mobile/powerful in summer and autumn than they are now in winter. And if they have no plan how to bring down/don't know it they might just intend to overwhelm it with brute force. If they climb over it (as the wildlings can) - and there is no reason to assume that they can't, since the wights can also be carried through the gates in the Wall - then it should be not that difficult for them to overpower its defenders. If they have a hundred thousands wights they can easily lose half or more of them and still win the day remarkably easy.

5 minutes ago, rotting sea cow said:

yeah, maybe GRRM forgot about it? (same with Robb's will?)

I'm pretty sure he has forgotten about neither, and it is possible that he did not want to include such a scene into AFfC/ADwD where the Others were not supposed to feature all that prominently.

If Stannis has seen the Gate we should find out eventually.

5 minutes ago, rotting sea cow said:

Anyway, it should play a role afterwards. I wonder what Stannis will do after taking Winterfell.

What he said he would - return to the Wall and properly man it, probably with a good portion of whatever Northmen survive the coming battles as well as those sellswords from Essos (if any of those are coming).

He can be pretty sure that his position in the North is secure if he defeats the Boltons. Nobody is going sent an army north in the middle of winter.

18 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Or, how about the Others break the ward and wipe out the cave dwellers, before Bran can achieve his full power, forcing Bran to flee back South where he can establish his own base of power at Winterfell.

And why would Bran then have to go to Winterfell and not to the Wall where he can find the grove with nine weirwoods close by? Again, Winterfell just has one weirwood tree. Last Hearth, Karhold, or whatever weirwoods they have in the Gifts (where there should also be some, considering the people living there were Northmen, worshiping the old gods) would also be closer options.

Keep in mind that it should be of utmost importance now to hold the Wall. This would be done at the Wall, not at Winterfell. If Bran ever left the cave I'd expect him to go to the Wall, not Winterfell. He could eventually go there then, too, I guess, if the Wall falls. But then we would get the same conundrum again - how the hell is Bran going to travel in the middle of winter? I mean, you are aware of the fact that the journey to the cave nearly killed him, right? And that limbs you can't move are affected by the cold much sooner than limbs you can move so that the blood keeps flowing through them. Furs and the like wouldn't help Bran in such a scenario.

[Free Northman Reborn]

23 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

And why would Bran then have to go to Winterfell and not to the Wall where he can find the grove with nine weirwoods close by? Again, Winterfell just has one weirwood tree. Last Hearth, Karhold, or whatever weirwoods they have in the Gifts (where there should also be some, considering the people living there were Northmen, worshiping the old gods) would also be closer options.

Keep in mind that it should be of utmost importance now to hold the Wall. This would be done at the Wall, not at Winterfell. If Bran ever left the cave I'd expect him to go to the Wall, not Winterfell. He could eventually go there then, too, I guess, if the Wall falls. But then we would get the same conundrum again - how the hell is Bran going to travel in the middle of winter? I mean, you are aware of the fact that the journey to the cave nearly killed him, right? And that limbs you can't move are affected by the cold much sooner than limbs you can move so that the blood keeps flowing through them. Furs and the like wouldn't help Bran in such a scenario.

You are assuming an awful lot here.

Firstly, the current ward is on the cave mouth, not on the entire grove. One would imagine that physical barriers as much as magical wards are required for a secure base of power. Furthermore, the cave is only habitable in the long term because it is underground, warm and has a supply of food and water. Something Bran is going to need for another few decades at least. He can't just go and plop down in the middle of some forest clearing and expect to stay there for the duration of Winter. If the cave falls, then Bloodraven would have failed to hold up a ward even despite having to only ward a small opening. So holding an open forest clearing indefinitely would seem a ridiculous notion, even if we ignore the lack of long term shelter and sustenance for Bran's human body.

Next, you continue to assume that Winterfell is no more magical or significant a place than any other castle with a godswood. When it is in fact very possible that Winterfell was the key location where the Others were defeated last time. Also, Bran quite likely has a very personal blood link to the Heart Tree at Winterfell, given the way his visions immediately jumped to it. In fact, the way he tastes the blood from the sacrifice in his first vision of the young Heart Tree, that may even have been Brandon the Builder sacrificed there, to seal the spell that linked Winterfell to the Starks for all eternity. Meaning his direct ancestor - and maybe even the person his spirit inhabited if the theories about him jumping through time have any validity.

So maybe the intention was always that Bran should return to Winterfell once his powers are awakened, in order to reach his full potential. Not to mention that the physical walls of Winterfell can provide a secure retreat against even the largest of assaults, and the castle can provide him with warmth, sustenance and supporting companions even in the heart of Winter.

As for Bran's  travelling. You again ignore the fact that your scenario proposes that Hodor will make it back to the Wall. So why not Bran with him? As for the underground river, one would note that it provides a rather ideal one way transportation mechanism (as we are told it is swift flowing and presumably therefore cannot be traversed against the stream). Hence, it would allow for an explanation why that route was not selected by Bloodraven for Bran's journey North in the first place.

But even an overland journey does not appear unachievable. Honestly, just because you declare it impossible, does not make it so. They made it there the first time around. With Bran now more powerful and able to potentially ward them if they rest next to a weirwood tree, and perhaps even with some Children to assist them, and maybe Bran warging polar bears, mammoths or any other creature he might fancy to carry them South, why would it not be possible this time around?

[Lord Varys]

13 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

You are assuming an awful lot here.

You assume much more, in fact.

13 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Firstly, the current ward is on the cave mouth, not on the entire grove. One would imagine that physical barriers as much as magical wards are required for a secure base of power.

The ward should better protect the entire cave, not just the front entrance (we know there is a back entrance which better is protected, too) since then the wights and Others could simply dig new entrances - which they don't seem to be doing, suggesting that that kind of thing wouldn't work.

13 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Furthermore, the cave is only habitable in the long term because it is underground, warm and has a supply of food and water. Something Bran is going to need for another few decades at least. He can't just go and plop down in the middle of some forest clearing and expect to stay there for the duration of Winter.

But they could build some house there to shelter him, right?

13 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

If the cave falls, then Bloodraven would have failed to hold up a ward even despite having to only ward a small opening. So holding an open forest clearing indefinitely would seem a ridiculous notion, even if we ignore the lack of long term shelter and sustenance for Bran's human body.

I'm not sure it is Bloodraven's magic that protects the cave. It is much more likely, in fact, that this is done by the Children, not Bloodraven. Especially if the Children were the ones who created the Others this would make sense. And we have to keep in mind that as of yet nothing indicates that the Others try to exterminate or kill the Children. They want to extinguish mankind. There were no Children wights amongst the armies of the Others, nor is there any indication that the Others specifically target the Children. They don't want the humans to learn how to kill or oppose them, but that is not the same as them considering the Children their enemies.

The wights in the front of the cave where not there to keep the Children inside but to prevent Bran from reaching it.

13 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Next, you continue to assume that Winterfell is no more magical or significant a place than any other castle with a godswood. When it is in fact very possible that Winterfell was the key location where the Others were defeated last time.

That is actually not very likely. We have no idea how it came to be that the Others disappeared at the end of the Long Night. If there was a battle one would assume that the knowledge about that would not have been lost.

But even if it was one it would be very odd if such a battleground was at Winterfell rather than further down in the South considering that the Others apparently were a threat to all of Westeros, even the entire world. The Last Hero could have been from the Reach or even Dorne, for all we know, and in light of the fact that Brandon the Builder supposedly also helped with the building of Storm's End and the Hightower this is not necessarily all that far-fetched an idea. Brandon could have helped Durran to raise a castle that would keep the Others out in his boyhood.

And then there is the fact that Dawn - possibly 'Lightbringer' if there ever was such a sword - is with the Daynes of Starfall. That doesn't make a lot of sense if the Others were defeated in the North.

13 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Also, Bran quite likely has a very personal blood link to the Heart Tree at Winterfell, given the way his visions immediately jumped to it.

There is no indication that such blood links even are possible. Not to mention that we know why Bran's first vision is of Winterfell and his father - he misses the man. Bloodraven's first visions most likely showed him Shiera and/or Daeron II and himself as a young man during some visit at Raventree Hall. Or perhaps his mother who he might have loved dearly, too.

13 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

In fact, the way he tastes the blood from the sacrifice in his first vision of the young Heart Tree, that may even have been Brandon the Builder sacrificed there, to seal the spell that linked Winterfell to the Starks for all eternity. Meaning his direct ancestor - and maybe even the person his spirit inhabited if the theories about him jumping through time have any validity.

I'd say the tasting of the blood is more a sign that greenseers actually do profit from blood sacrifices to weirwood trees/the old gods, and that this practice has to be revived to make Bran strong.

I don't see any reason to believe that there is a spell that links the Starks to Winterfell for all eternity. What sort of thing should that be?

13 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

So maybe the intention was always that Bran should return to Winterfell once his powers are awakened, in order to reach his full potential. Not to mention that the physical walls of Winterfell can provide a secure retreat against even the largest of assaults, and the castle can provide him with warmth, sustenance and supporting companions even in the heart of Winter.

Then why is there no indication that those are the plans. There is no hint that Bran is ever supposed to leave that place, unlike Arya and Sansa who definitely won't remain in Braavos or the Vale forever.

The idea that the weirwood of Winterfell has anything to offer to Bran that he could not take from where he is now makes little sense. It is just one tree, not many, and it is quite clear that the greenseers of the Children resided beneath entire weirwood groves.

13 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

As for Bran's  travelling. You again ignore the fact that your scenario proposes that Hodor will make it back to the Wall. So why not Bran with him?

As I've said, because he is most likely going to freeze to death on the journey. Not to mention that the Others might hunt him down, but not care so much about Hodor, Meera, and Jojen. Without Bran they could move much faster.

13 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

As for the underground river, one would note that it provides a rather ideal one way transportation mechanism (as we are told it is swift flowing and presumably therefore cannot be traversed against the stream). Hence, it would allow for an explanation why that route was not selected by Bloodraven for Bran's journey North in the first place.

Well, underground rivers don't really exist. They are geological nonsense. There are caves connected groundwater, of course, but there are no large underground rivers who are navigable by boat.

13 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

But even an overland journey does not appear unachievable. Honestly, just because you declare it impossible, does not make it so. They made it there the first time around. With Bran now more powerful and able to potentially ward them if they rest next to a weirwood tree, and perhaps even with some Children to assist them, and maybe Bran warging polar bears, mammoths or any other creature he might fancy to carry them South, why would it not be possible this time around?

If Bran can ward them across that journey, why not the weirwood grove near the Wall? Or the Wall itself for that matter? And again, there is no indication that the greenseers even can ward stuff. As I've said above, that could be the work of the Children.

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Because it is pretty evident that this is where Hodor's name comes from.

Lol, no it's not. Nobody thought of that before the show except for (allegedly) that one guy who shared a lift with GRRM.

I always thought "Hodor" was just - and I can't think of a sensitive way to say this - just "Walder" as pronounced by a retarded person with a speech impediment. Think Down's syndrome, where they generally have a big tongue that affects their speech. Stick your tongue in front of your bottom front teeth and try to say "Walder". It's not that far off.

[Lord Varys]

Just now, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

Lol, no it's not. Nobody thought of that before the show except for (allegedly) that one guy who shared a lift with GRRM.

I always thought "Hodor" was just - and I can't think of a sensitive way to say this - just "Walder" as pronounced by a retarded person with a speech impediment. Think Down's syndrome, where they generally have a big tongue that affects their speech. Stick your tongue in front of your bottom front teeth and try to say "Walder". It's not that far off.

There is a thread here on the board where the whole thing was brought up a few years ago. It is nothing new, really. As usual, I don't have the link but I've seen it.

[Free Northman Reborn]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

You assume much more, in fact.

The ward should better protect the entire cave, not just the front entrance (we know there is a back entrance which better is protected, too) since then the wights and Others could simply dig new entrances - which they don't seem to be doing, suggesting that that kind of thing wouldn't work.

But they could build some house there to shelter him, right?

I'm not sure it is Bloodraven's magic that protects the cave. It is much more likely, in fact, that this is done by the Children, not Bloodraven. Especially if the Children were the ones who created the Others this would make sense. And we have to keep in mind that as of yet nothing indicates that the Others try to exterminate or kill the Children. They want to extinguish mankind. There were no Children wights amongst the armies of the Others, nor is there any indication that the Others specifically target the Children. They don't want the humans to learn how to kill or oppose them, but that is not the same as them considering the Children their enemies.

The wights in the front of the cave where not there to keep the Children inside but to prevent Bran from reaching it.

That is actually not very likely. We have no idea how it came to be that the Others disappeared at the end of the Long Night. If there was a battle one would assume that the knowledge about that would not have been lost.

But even if it was one it would be very odd if such a battleground was at Winterfell rather than further down in the South considering that the Others apparently were a threat to all of Westeros, even the entire world. The Last Hero could have been from the Reach or even Dorne, for all we know, and in light of the fact that Brandon the Builder supposedly also helped with the building of Storm's End and the Hightower this is not necessarily all that far-fetched an idea. Brandon could have helped Durran to raise a castle that would keep the Others out in his boyhood.

And then there is the fact that Dawn - possibly 'Lightbringer' if there ever was such a sword - is with the Daynes of Starfall. That doesn't make a lot of sense if the Others were defeated in the North.

There is no indication that such blood links even are possible. Not to mention that we know why Bran's first vision is of Winterfell and his father - he misses the man. Bloodraven's first visions most likely showed him Shiera and/or Daeron II and himself as a young man during some visit at Raventree Hall. Or perhaps his mother who he might have loved dearly, too.

I'd say the tasting of the blood is more a sign that greenseers actually do profit from blood sacrifices to weirwood trees/the old gods, and that this practice has to be revived to make Bran strong.

I don't see any reason to believe that there is a spell that links the Starks to Winterfell for all eternity. What sort of thing should that be?

Then why is there no indication that those are the plans. There is no hint that Bran is ever supposed to leave that place, unlike Arya and Sansa who definitely won't remain in Braavos or the Vale forever.

The idea that the weirwood of Winterfell has anything to offer to Bran that he could not take from where he is now makes little sense. It is just one tree, not many, and it is quite clear that the greenseers of the Children resided beneath entire weirwood groves.

As I've said, because he is most likely going to freeze to death on the journey. Not to mention that the Others might hunt him down, but not care so much about Hodor, Meera, and Jojen. Without Bran they could move much faster.

Well, underground rivers don't really exist. They are geological nonsense. There are caves connected groundwater, of course, but there are no large underground rivers who are navigable by boat.

If Bran can ward them across that journey, why not the weirwood grove near the Wall? Or the Wall itself for that matter? And again, there is no indication that the greenseers even can ward stuff. As I've said above, that could be the work of the Children.

Lord Varys

A lot to comment on. Something I'd like to mention now, while leaving a lengthier reply for later, is on the significance of Winterfell and your assertion that the Long Night must have wiped out everything in the North for it to be felt as far South as Dorne and the Reach. In fact, it seems from the WOIAF that a number of the Great Houses in the North date back to the Age of Heroes and the Long Night itself. Winterfell was supposedly founded by Bran the Builder, who established the Wall itself. And House Dustin is strongly suggested to have been a House of prominence well before the Starks, being a prominent, established House dating back to when the First Men first migrated into the North.

And similarly, the enmity between Houses Stark and Bolton is said to date back to events that took place during the Long Night itself.

So in short, it seems to be strongly indicated that these Houses were established and lived through the Long Night, in their current locations. So my view is that while many castles fell, some remained  in place and resisted the Others right through the Long Night, even while the Others ventured into the Far South.

 

[Lord Varys]

1 minute ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Lord Varys

A lot to comment on. Something I'd like to mention now, while leaving a lengthier reply for later, is on the significance of Winterfell and your assertion that the Long Night must have wiped out everything in the North for it to be felt as far South as Dorne and the Reach. In fact, it seems from the WOIAF that a number of the Great Houses in the North date back to the Age of Heroes and the Long Night itself. Winterfell was supposedly founded by Bran the Builder, who established the Wall itself. And House Dustin is strongly suggested to have been a House of prominence well before the Starks, being a prominent, established House in the immediate aftermath of the Long Night.

And similarly, the enmity between Houses Stark and Bolton is said to date back to events that took place during the Long Night itself.

So in short, it seems to be strongly indicated that these Houses were established and lived through the Long Night, in their current locations. So my view is that while many castles fell, some remained  in place and resisted the Others right through the Long Night, even while the Others ventured into the Far South.

Winterfell as a castle was (supposedly) built only after the Long Night. Other houses like the Casterlys, Lannisters, Gardeners, Hightowers (and other Reach houses) as well as the ancient Dornish houses are all older. The same would go for many houses in the Riverlands and the Vale. The Durrandons as a house are about as old as the Starks.

But whatever information we have on those ages is both limited and not very accurate. Bran will give us the truth soon enough, presumably.

We can reasonably assume that there were ringforts and the like at the location of Winterfell before Brandon built the castle (if he did that) but there is no good reason to assume that the men living there were (proto-)Starks (especially since Brandon is the alleged founder of the house). If he is descended from this Brandon of the Bloody Blade chap then Brandon the Builder might have been born in the Reach (and that could, perhaps, help explain how it came to be that he helped Durran build Storm's End as a boy only to later settle at Winterfell after he helped build the Wall).

The Barrow Kings and other Northern houses might actually be much older than the Starks. The Starks are house who conquers the entire North, extinguishing and subduing other royal lines in the process.

But the idea that whatever holdfasts the First Men during the Long Night had where as impressive as the large castles are now makes little sense. Winterfell was clearly build and rebuild over the course of many generations, just as many of the other huge structures were (the Wall, the Hightower, Highgarden, etc.).

And you should, of course, keep in mind that a noble or royal house can remain in existence even if its lands are depopulated and its castles destroyed. Thus there may have been ancestors of Brandon the Builder in the Winterfell region who left the place when the Others came only to return later. And the same might have gone for many other castles and lands.

Also keep in mind that there were no real cultural differences in those days. Only First Men were living in Westeros, and the people near Oldtown were pretty much the same as those living in the Vale, the Stormlands, or the North.

But even if you were right and the last great battle/conflict was resolved at or near Winterfell - that has no bearing on what's going to happen in our story. Gil-galad and Elendil also overpowered Sauron militarily at the end of the Second Age. But that doesn't mean Sauron had to (or could) be overpowered militarily at the end of the Third Age, right?

We will learn about the past, and the mistakes made in the past, and history will not repeat itself. If it did then we could stop reading the books after Bran glimpses into the past, watching what transpired during the Long Night.

A very interesting thing in that context is that nothing in the history of the North indicates that the Starks were ever very close to the Children of the Forest. The Stark history begins only after the Long Night, but they don't appear to have been protectors and friends of the Children of the Forest, irregardless of the Pact. They slaughtered the Children and their skinchangers and greenseers who lived with the Warg King on Sea Dragon Point.

Unlike the Gardeners or Durrandons there is no indication that any Children yet lived in the North by the time the Andals came (Gardener, Durrandon, and River kings tried to make alliances with the Children against the new invaders).

This is odd because one should actually assume that there would be still Children in the North (and at Winterfell) if the First Men had actually honored the Pact. It is clear that the Andals destroyed the Children down in the South, but who herded them out of the North? The Northmen and the Starks? If so, why? And when exactly?

 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

5 hours ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

Lol, no it's not. Nobody thought of that before the show except for (allegedly) that one guy who shared a lift with GRRM.

I always thought "Hodor" was just - and I can't think of a sensitive way to say this - just "Walder" as pronounced by a retarded person with a speech impediment. Think Down's syndrome, where they generally have a big tongue that affects their speech. Stick your tongue in front of your bottom front teeth and try to say "Walder". It's not that far off.

And GRRM's alleged response was that the guy had no idea how close he was to being right.

I must be better at pronouncing things with my tongue in front of my bottom teeth, because I still came pretty close to Walder. Yes, I actually did try it. 

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

2 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

And GRRM's alleged response was that the guy had no idea how close he was to being right.

I must be better at pronouncing things with my tongue in front of my bottom teeth, because I still came pretty close to Walder. Yes, I actually did try it. 

Yeah, you gotta kind of make your tongue big as well.

GRRM's alleged response is just that: alleged. (And not remembered by GRRM when someone asked him about it, IIRC.)

All I'm saying is: "hold the door" is terrible, and if we must be subjected to some lame revelation concerning Hodor, I'd rather it not be that.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Just now, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

Yeah, you gotta kind of make your tongue big as well.

GRRM's alleged response is just that: alleged. (And not remembered by GRRM when someone asked him about it, IIRC.)

All I'm saying is: "hold the door" is terrible, and if we must be subjected to some lame revelation concerning Hodor, I'd rather it not be that.

I can agree with that. I'd prefer it be the name of a fine and rare Westerosi whiskey and the poor guy has spent the entire series just trying to get a decent drink.

[cgrav]

I suspect it will be a similar event, but will make more sense than in the show. Hodor has an established door theme, it's just a question of which door it will, if it's even a literal one.

There is an accompanying theme of metaphorical gates dying (screaming hinges), so Hodor seems like an intersection of those two. When the personal and universal themes come together, that's probably a plot climax. 

We also had a giant who tried to break through a gate during the wildling assault.

Looking at it this light, maybe it will be Hodor who blows the Horn. 

Edit: since we're speculating, how do we feel about the possibility of Hodor making the trip back to the Wall, avoiding danger by being wighted and  skinchanged by Bran, who has to force out the Great Other from undead Hodor's head?

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

4 minutes ago, cgrav said:

Spoiler

I suspect it will be a "hold the door" thing, but will make more sense than in the show. Hodor has an established door theme, it's just a question of which door it will, if it's even a literal one.

 

Show spoiler tags please! I don't want to know that stuff!