What is the Others plan?

[Lord Varys]

34 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

Your hidden comment sounds very interesting and plausible.

Thanks, the more detailed explanation goes something like this

Spoiler

Meera ends up going back home, perhaps with Jojen in tow - who may or may not make it, possibly sacrificing himself to save Meera and Hodor. The Others pursue them to the Black Gate (or wait there for them) and after Bran (with his powers back from the cave or through Hodor) opens it he connects with it/or even merges with it in an attempt to close it again while the Others and wights are trying to get through. If the whole 'blood sacrifices to weirwood trees to strengthen the greenseers and their magic' becomes a thing then Hodor's life itself might then strengthen the gate for a while, to keep it shut even if the Others are on the other side.

Only something like that can, I think, explain how a future event should break Hodor's mind in the past the way it apparently did. We know that weirwoods perceive time differently, for them past, present, and future are one. Thus a person actually merging with or becoming a weirwood tree (at the end of his or her life) could actually suffer from some sort of echo from the future sound throughout his entire temporal existence. When you are one with a weirwood your own past, present, and future might also be one in you, and people most likely can't cope with such an experience. Especially if it is very traumatic.

In Hodor's case we would have the whole 'Hold the door' future event being so strong that it essentially destroyed his mind throughout his entire past.

Bran trying to possess Hodor in the past (like done in the TV show) makes little sense. That should not work, and even if it did, it should not have such a devastating effect. And unlike the show Hodor apparently was always the way he was in the books, suggesting that the 'future echo' destroyed his mind all the way down to infancy, or perhaps even since before he was born.

And in light of the fact that this seems to be a very crucial plot point in the entire series, something that George clearly planned and is working towards since the very first book (suggesting that this isn't exactly a small and colorful detail), we can be reasonably sure that it must be connected to a major event. Quite possibly the beginning of the end of the Wall, or something leading up to that.

If the Black Gate ever gets destroyed or breached the spells in the Wall might no longer work. I'm pretty sure that door is the heart of the Wall (if it has one), and there is no coincidence that Stannis chose the Nightfort as his seat in ASoS. We are going to see that place again, and one hopes that Stannis and Mel finally take their seat their in TWoW.

[aryagonnakill#2]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Thanks, the more detailed explanation goes something like this

  Hide contents

Meera ends up going back home, perhaps with Jojen in tow - who may or may not make it, possibly sacrificing himself to save Meera and Hodor. The Others pursue them to the Black Gate (or wait there for them) and after Bran (with his powers back from the cave or through Hodor) opens it he connects with it/or even merges with it in an attempt to close it again while the Others and wights are trying to get through. If the whole 'blood sacrifices to weirwood trees to strengthen the greenseers and their magic' becomes a thing then Hodor's life itself might then strengthen the gate for a while, to keep it shut even if the Others are on the other side.

Only something like that can, I think, explain how a future event should break Hodor's mind in the past the way it apparently did. We know that weirwoods perceive time differently, for them past, present, and future are one. Thus a person actually merging with or becoming a weirwood tree (at the end of his or her life) could actually suffer from some sort of echo from the future sound throughout his entire temporal existence. When you are one with a weirwood your own past, present, and future might also be one in you, and people most likely can't cope with such an experience. Especially if it is very traumatic.

In Hodor's case we would have the whole 'Hold the door' future event being so strong that it essentially destroyed his mind throughout his entire past.

Bran trying to possess Hodor in the past (like done in the TV show) makes little sense. That should not work, and even if it did, it should not have such a devastating effect. And unlike the show Hodor apparently was always the way he was in the books, suggesting that the 'future echo' destroyed his mind all the way down to infancy, or perhaps even since before he was born.

And in light of the fact that this seems to be a very crucial plot point in the entire series, something that George clearly planned and is working towards since the very first book (suggesting that this isn't exactly a small and colorful detail), we can be reasonably sure that it must be connected to a major event. Quite possibly the beginning of the end of the Wall, or something leading up to that.

If the Black Gate ever gets destroyed or breached the spells in the Wall might no longer work. I'm pretty sure that door is the heart of the Wall (if it has one), and there is no coincidence that Stannis chose the Nightfort as his seat in ASoS. We are going to see that place again, and one hopes that Stannis and Mel finally take their seat their in TWoW.

Spoiler

What I found myself wondering about was the lack of an actual "door" anywhere north of the wall.  Seemingly it can't happen anywhere other than WF or the gate.  I still think there is the possibility it will happen in the crypts given Hodors hesitance to go in that one time and the possibility of a secret entrance, but you raise a very interesting possibility.  What gives support to your theory is the line about weirwoods existing without time or outside of time or however it went.

 

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

Just a quick thought: why the hell is the Wall made of ice?

Why wouldn't men build it out of stone? Winterfell's made of stone, and we presume it's built to defend against the Others.

Why would ice especially deter the Others? They're made of ice.

And we know that the Others can work ice like we work stone or metal.

I know people have speculated that the Others are actually the ones who built the Wall, but why the hell aren't we absolutely certain of that? It just occurred to me that it doesn't really make sense any other way.

[rotting sea cow]

16 hours ago, Makk said:

So why didn't he intercept Sam while he was sailing down the East or West coast? It would have been a lot easier to catch him there rather than attacking and then finding him in an entire city.

Well, there are many possibilities to explain this from "it makes a better story" to "you cannot see everything with a glass candle"

 

18 hours ago, Orphalesion said:

Interestingly in all the speculations on WHY the Others are returning now (natural cycle, the impending long winter) and including the extremely stupid ones (a sept being built in Winterfell or no/not enough Starks being present) the idea that the Others have recognized that the Night's Watch has dwindled and degenerated into a small band/cult of convicts and might see their hour to strike at hand doesn't often come up, or at least not nearly as often as the other theories.

There was a good thread not long ago. My take is the Others were never fully away, coming back a few times, testing the defenses, etc. Now that the NW is at its historical minimum, that Dragons are gone, etc. they thing they have their best chance.

[cgrav]

6 hours ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

Just a quick thought: why the hell is the Wall made of ice?

Why wouldn't men build it out of stone? Winterfell's made of stone, and we presume it's built to defend against the Others.

Why would ice especially deter the Others? They're made of ice.

And we know that the Others can work ice like we work stone or metal.

Well how would a person react to a 700 foot wall made of people? I'd stay far, far away.

I'd think that being ice is why it has the power to stop them. It's made of the same magic they are, so it holds sway over them. I've speculated that the Wall/Black Gate is the Great Other, meaning that withholding the Others is a choice or duty of the thing itself. 

[Orphalesion]

6 hours ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

Just a quick thought: why the hell is the Wall made of ice?

Why wouldn't men build it out of stone? Winterfell's made of stone, and we presume it's built to defend against the Others.

Why would ice especially deter the Others? They're made of ice.

And we know that the Others can work ice like we work stone or metal.

I know people have speculated that the Others are actually the ones who built the Wall, but why the hell aren't we absolutely certain of that? It just occurred to me that it doesn't really make sense any other way.

I assume it's not so much the material but the magic inherent in the wall that keeps the Ohters north.

Yes, a Wall of Stone (assuming the same dimensions) would have been infinitely better, but would also have been infinitely more difficult to create. We can assume that after the Long Night there weren't enough Children and/or Giant left to create a magical, giant stone wall, so Ice had to do. It's farily hard in such large quantities.We know that the Children are able to manipulate water.

Also, unless I'm completely forgetting something the Others haven't been portrayed as possessing specific mastery over ice beyond what you noted, so an Ice barrier would, from what we know, be effective against them. After all stone/metal barriers are effective against humans.

I don't think the Others created the Wall, it clearly keeps them from going south. If they had created it they would have included a sort of backdoor for them to slip through if needed.

[rotting sea cow]

14 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I don't buy that interpretation in the deeper meaning. Did the NW stay true during the reign of the Night's King, when Runcel Hightower left the Wall to his bastard son, when they murdered Jeor Mormont?

Well, we can see the Night King story as the first attempt to break the NW if indeed the "corpse queen" is related to the Others. Not for nothing the first  (?) king-beyond-the-Wall, Joramun, appeared at the same time. My head cannon tells me that every time there is heightened Others activity, the wildings raise a king. There are many indigenous people who have similar anarchist culture and only join for war or existential threats.

Now, the vows of the NW read suspiciously lightbringer-ish

14 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That doesn't make any sense. The Horn of Joramun is supposed to cause a magical earthquake. Unless we think an earthquake caused at the coast of the Reach is going to affect the Wall all that much I don't buy that theory. Besides, it is quite clear that whoever hid the stuff at the Fist - the obsidian was the important stuff, not the horn - didn't do it along time ago. The black clothing indicating a black brother wasn't rotten or anything.

Considering that Ghost found the stuff it might have been Benjen who hid it

I wouldn't discard the horn as important, even I could buy it's Joramun but I also find anticlimactic that someone randomly, far away and unrelated to the current struggles at the Wall, blow the horn and bring the Wall down, whilst the Others sit idle. Nah....

14 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

They most likely acted because they wanted to weaken the NW but also because they wanted to prevent Mormont from stopping Mance's exodus. They clearly counted on the wildlings weakening (or destroying the NW). Then everything would have been much easier for them.

Indeed, this was the plan, which again points to clear strategic thinking by the Others and made me wondering about thire next steps and realizing that blowing horns without any previous showdown makes little sense.

14 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

We know there were Lord Commanders who left the Wall taller than it was when they took over. I imagine the Wall in the days of Brandon the Builder being hardly more than some sort of magical fence, perhaps 10-20 feet high. Giants may have helped with the building of the thing but it is a pretty long wall, and if there is any truth to the suffering during the Long Night then there wouldn't have been many workers around in the decades afterwards.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/The_Wall/

14 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

See above. Those ice spiders could come in handy.

It is indeed a possibility

14 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

And we should also expect them to capture some of Cotter Pyke's (and Lysene) ships at Hardhome, have wights crawl through the Gorge (or cross the Bridge of Skulls after the Weeper has crossed it with an army, destroying the Shadow Tower in the process), and build some rafts and the like to get a considerable amount of wights (and Others) across the Bay of Ice to Sea Dragon Point and other thinly populated areas in the region. There they could raise a large enough army of wights by killing people to take the Wall by surprise.

I'm also uneasy with the notion of wights and/or Others crossing or bypassing the Wall before it becomes clear that its magic is debilitating. Otherwise, why not makes zombies of the entire Mance's host? There were more than 30 thousands of wildings, plenty to overwhelm the NW.

 

 

[rotting sea cow]

11 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Thanks, the more detailed explanation goes something like this

  Reveal hidden contents

Meera ends up going back home, perhaps with Jojen in tow - who may or may not make it, possibly sacrificing himself to save Meera and Hodor. The Others pursue them to the Black Gate (or wait there for them) and after Bran (with his powers back from the cave or through Hodor) opens it he connects with it/or even merges with it in an attempt to close it again while the Others and wights are trying to get through. If the whole 'blood sacrifices to weirwood trees to strengthen the greenseers and their magic' becomes a thing then Hodor's life itself might then strengthen the gate for a while, to keep it shut even if the Others are on the other side.

Only something like that can, I think, explain how a future event should break Hodor's mind in the past the way it apparently did. We know that weirwoods perceive time differently, for them past, present, and future are one. Thus a person actually merging with or becoming a weirwood tree (at the end of his or her life) could actually suffer from some sort of echo from the future sound throughout his entire temporal existence. When you are one with a weirwood your own past, present, and future might also be one in you, and people most likely can't cope with such an experience. Especially if it is very traumatic.

In Hodor's case we would have the whole 'Hold the door' future event being so strong that it essentially destroyed his mind throughout his entire past.

Bran trying to possess Hodor in the past (like done in the TV show) makes little sense. That should not work, and even if it did, it should not have such a devastating effect. And unlike the show Hodor apparently was always the way he was in the books, suggesting that the 'future echo' destroyed his mind all the way down to infancy, or perhaps even since before he was born.

And in light of the fact that this seems to be a very crucial plot point in the entire series, something that George clearly planned and is working towards since the very first book (suggesting that this isn't exactly a small and colorful detail), we can be reasonably sure that it must be connected to a major event. Quite possibly the beginning of the end of the Wall, or something leading up to that.

I like this notion much better. Bran trying to save both the Wall and his friends and fails in both cases, debilitating the Wall and crushing Hodor's mind. There is a good message there.

 

11 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

If the Black Gate ever gets destroyed or breached the spells in the Wall might no longer work. I'm pretty sure that door is the heart of the Wall (if it has one), and there is no coincidence that Stannis chose the Nightfort as his seat in ASoS. We are going to see that place again, and one hopes that Stannis and Mel finally take their seat their in TWoW.

It is odd with the Black Gate. We never heard of it again in after ASOS, not even in flashbacks. We don't have confirmation that Stannis ever visited the Nightfort or that Sam showed him the Black Gate. Even as the builders worked hard to make accommodations for Selyse, she never made attempt to go there. Strange and stranger.

[Lord Varys]

11 minutes ago, rotting sea cow said:

Well, we can see the Night King story as the first attempt to break the NW if indeed the "corpse queen" is related to the Others. Not for nothing the first  (?) king-beyond-the-Wall, Joramun, appeared at the same time. My head cannon tells me that every time there is heightened Others activity, the wildings raise a king. There are many indigenous people who have similar anarchist culture and only join for war or existential threats.

Not sure if this was the case during the rule of Gendel and Gorne, the Horned Lord, and Bael the Bard.

And even in the days of Joramun the Others would have been less powerful than during the Long Night. And we really don't know who or what the corpse queen was, and I'd be actually pretty surprised if we ever found out. That is not important. Bran should find out what the Others are, what they want, how they can be defeated, and what transpired during the Long Night and the War for the Dawn. That's important. The Night's King is at best some sort of epilogue to the whole thing.

11 minutes ago, rotting sea cow said:

Now, the vows of the NW read suspiciously lightbringer-ish.

Sure, winter comes with darkness in Westeros, TWoIaF effectively confirms this and ADwD already hinted at it. In winter, the days grew shorter. It is no surprise that light, dawn, fire, and warmth feature rather heavily in the NW vow.

11 minutes ago, rotting sea cow said:

I wouldn't discard the horn as important, even I could buy it's Joramun but I also find anticlimactic that someone randomly, far away and unrelated to the current struggles at the Wall, blow the horn and bring the Wall down, whilst the Others sit idle. Nah....

Indeed. I'm pretty sure that horn is either a red herring or pretty much irrelevant.

11 minutes ago, rotting sea cow said:

I'm also uneasy with the notion of wights and/or Others crossing or bypassing the Wall before it becomes clear that its magic is debilitating. Otherwise, why not makes zombies of the entire Mance's host? There were more than 30 thousands of wildings, plenty to overwhelm the NW.

Perhaps that was the plan after they had reached the Wall and were all stuck there. Keep in mind that winter wasn't yet there, possibly reducing the power of the Others even beyond the Wall. We don't know how many wights they have right now. They might have expected Mance to take care of the NW, claiming his dead as well as the dead Watchmen as wights. Just as they are right now doing with the surviving wildlings.

Presumably they don't make a move to get father down south because they can, as of yet, not do that or feel they are not yet ready.

13 minutes ago, rotting sea cow said:

I like this notion much better. Bran trying to save both the Wall and his friends and fails in both cases, debilitating the Wall and crushing Hodor's mind. There is a good message there.

The whole thing could actually be connected to the Horn of Winter, now that I think about it. Bran could find out where it is and send out Hodor, Meera, and Jojen to find it and bring it down to the Watch, to safety. That would even make more sense if it happened to be at a place between the cave and the Wall.

13 minutes ago, rotting sea cow said:

It is odd with the Black Gate. We never heard of it again in after ASOS, not even in flashbacks. We don't have confirmation that Stannis ever visited the Nightfort or that Sam showed him the Black Gate. Even as the builders worked hard to make accommodations for Selyse, she never made attempt to go there. Strange and stranger.

Yeah, that's odd, possibly a consequence of the scrapping of the five year gap. I'd assume that Sam did not got around to show the Black Gate to Stannis, but if Stannis returns alive from Winterfell he most likely will take his seat there. Enough time passed (and enough work was done at the Nightfort) for it to be (somewhat) hospitable by now. And depending what happens at Castle Black right now, the Watch might actually be forced to move the headquarters elsewhere. If there is open fighting in Castle Black more buildings might be destroyed.

Selyse apparently wanted to be where the action is. And while Stannis is away that was clearly Castle Black.

[Orphalesion]

14 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Not sure if this was the case during the rule of Gendel and Gorne, the Horned Lord, and Bael the Bard.

I agree with this. Similar to how the Night's Watch has lost it's original purpose by the time GoT starts so I think the King beyond the Wall might have started out as a defense against the Others, but has over time gained mundane properties and become the title of any Wildling strong enough to unite a significant amount of the Free Folk for whatever motivation. It's only their cultural bias agains thereditary power that prevented the creation of a longer lasting power structure.

Kind of like early medieval Eastern Europe were many political entities rose and died with their creators.

[Leo of House Cartel]

17 hours ago, devilish said:

 

Regarding the Red Priests (like all necromancers)

In my opinion they are pretty misguided and their visions are nothing but the product of darkness. Think about it. If the god of light has power on raising people from the death then surely he would have raised Nissa Nissa. Azor was his champion, Nissa was his beloved etc. So why do the Lord of Light would give the likes of Jon Snow and Lady Stoneheart a gift that he wasn't willing to give to his champion's lover?

Now as a wise man once said. A tree is distinguished by its fruit. What did Melisandre did throughout the entire war? It helped the most stubborn, weakest and less liked candidate to beat the only person capable to end this war quickly. That pushed the Rose in bed with the lions and together they massacred Stannis army in Blackwater's bay and also indirectly forced Bolton/Frey hand to mastermind the Red Wedding massacre.

Her magic might or might not have eliminated Balon, leading the path to Euron. 

After defeated the wildlings (the only good thing he did) Stannis fixated in invading the North, further weakening a region who suffered so much already, for a crown he's got no real chance to take.

That does sound alot of bodies for the necromancers to raise am I right? 

Now lets see what would have happened if Melisandre wasn't there

a- Stannis would probably stay in Dragonstone grumbling
b- The wolf and the lion would keep fighting, further weakening themselves
c- Once they are too weak to fight. Renly would march his horde to KL. He would probably kill Cersei's children, take Cersei, Jamie and Tyrion as hostage and force everybody to bend the knee. Robb might even be able to keep his crown as long as its cerimonial

Less deaths, a stronger Westeros ie whose in a better shape to fight the others.

What about the resurrected people?

There's Lady Stoneheart, whose causing multiple deaths in the Riverlands. There's Sir Robert Strong who will make sure that the single most destructive force in Westeros (Cersei) will remain safe, which means more treachery from her side and a possible Rose vs Lion war. Soon enough we might have a resurrected Jon Snow who will probably hang those who betrayed him (the NW will be further weakened) and them try to rally the weakened North against Roose Bolton (more living against living and more deaths)

Great analysis!

The Red Faith itself could be accused of inadvertently propegating common belief in the power of The Others. Considering "The Great Other" aspect of the religion, every worshiper The Red God would have a belief and connection to The Great Other, and perhaps The White Walkers.

Varys's "Power Resides Riddle" could also tie in: If the various forms of magic gain power through people's strength of faith, then all this talk of a Great Other could inadvertently be heightening both awareness and power of The White Walkers magic.

Now aside from the old Northern tales of the Long Night and the Bloodstone Emperor fables from the far east, the faith of Red R'hllor represents the only other large scale system of belief known to us which features an ice based antagonist. Should the forces of winter make a bold enough statement south of The Wall, it would be interesting to see how many followers of R'hllor might choose to convert to worship of The Great Other. Certain Red Priests could have the idea of "The evil being we recognise as a dark god has revealed their self to us before the Red God, thus, The Great Other must be the only God!"

I am a proponent of the idea that The Others are somehow manipulating several events south of The Wall. The Red Faith might be a good place to start. If Mel's fire visions can be gatecrashed by Bloodraven, who could of course be in cahoots with The White Walkers, then who's to say some Other party may be able to do the same thing. Every Red Priest who ever saw legit visions in their flames may have been influenced by a third party. Why, all the visions of R'hllor seen by The Red Priests over the centuries may have been sent by The Great Other/White Walkers/Bloodraven.

It is certainly interesting that Thoros of Myr spent a lot of time in a Weirwood cave! 

[Free Northman Reborn]

It is a Black Gate, not a Black Door. There is no door there.

I think the door in question may be the door to the crypts, as someone else said above. Else some other door, somewhere South of the Wall. Of course, if one doesn't want Bran to return to the North itself (because it messes up your theories if the Prince of Winterfell gets back into the mix), then a theory where Hodor dies at the Wall - robbing Bran of his mode of transport, thus necessitating a scenario where he remains in the cave - would appeal to you.

[cgrav]

17 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

It is a Black Gate, not a Black Door. There is no door there.

I think the door in question may be the door to the crypts, as someone else said above. Else some other door, somewhere South of the Wall. Of course, if one doesn't want Bran to return to the North itself (because it messes up your theories if the Prince of Winterfell gets back into the mix), then a theory where Hodor dies at the Wall - robbing Bran of his mode of transport, thus necessitating a scenario where he remains in the cave - would appeal to you.

So far we've seen Hodor open two doors that were too heavy for anyone else: the crypts and the trap to the highest part of Queenscrown. They both have a theme of moving between realms, first from the underworld to the surface and then into the symbolic heavenly realm. Both happen around the time Bran experiences an intensification of his abilities. 

So whenever Hodor opens a physical door it's a metaphor for Bran opening a magical door. And going with the idea of the gate-opener having to die, I imagine Bran's next/final ascent to deity-like powers will be the death of Hodor. Willl he open a door into himself and let Bran inhabit his head for good? Or will it be some other physical barrier, and what will Bran's accompanying epiphany be?

[devilish]

1 hour ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

Great analysis!

The Red Faith itself could be accused of inadvertently propegating common belief in the power of The Others. Considering "The Great Other" aspect of the religion, every worshiper The Red God would have a belief and connection to The Great Other, and perhaps The White Walkers.

Varys's "Power Resides Riddle" could also tie in: If the various forms of magic gain power through people's strength of faith, then all this talk of a Great Other could inadvertently be heightening both awareness and power of The White Walkers magic.

Now aside from the old Northern tales of the Long Night and the Bloodstone Emperor fables from the far east, the faith of Red R'hllor represents the only other large scale system of belief known to us which features an ice based antagonist. Should the forces of winter make a bold enough statement south of The Wall, it would be interesting to see how many followers of R'hllor might choose to convert to worship of The Great Other. Certain Red Priests could have the idea of "The evil being we recognise as a dark god has revealed their self to us before the Red God, thus, The Great Other must be the only God!"

I am a proponent of the idea that The Others are somehow manipulating several events south of The Wall. The Red Faith might be a good place to start. If Mel's fire visions can be gatecrashed by Bloodraven, who could of course be in cahoots with The White Walkers, then who's to say some Other party may be able to do the same thing. Every Red Priest who ever saw legit visions in their flames may have been influenced by a third party. Why, all the visions of R'hllor seen by The Red Priests over the centuries may have been sent by The Great Other/White Walkers/Bloodraven.

It is certainly interesting that Thoros of Myr spent a lot of time in a Weirwood cave! 

 I won't go in detail about my beliefs regarding the others, how they were created and what kickstarted their return. It would take me pages to write. What I do know that the so called necromancers appeared in Westeros at a rather delicate stage of the realm and since their arrival they did nothing but causing more deaths. The war was pretty straightforward. With lion fighting against wolf until both were too weak to hold the Stag and the Rose from taking power. In Renly the kingdom would have had a king that loves politics and see value in enemies bending the knee. Yet, no Melisandre had to back the weakest and more stubborn of all 5 kings, which in turn would kill the strongest candidate for peace, causing this war to descend into a bloodshed. Stannis campaign costed a quick end to the war, most of the Stormland's army, Balon's death which brought Euron's return and possibly more deaths in the North. With Stannis cycle close to an end I won't be surprised if Melisandre backs a sour Jon Snow who will, most probably, add to the death tally among the NW who betrayed him, the Wildlings whom he will lead to battle and the Bolton loyalists, weakening the North further.

All the resurrected are basically doing the same thing from Lady Stoneheart to Sir Robert Strong who will probably keep the single most destructive living person in Westeros alive (Cersei)

For a religion who is aware of the return of the Others and their power over the death, they do seem like adding more bodies for them to resurrect. Which sort of contradicts what they are 'fighting against'

[Lord Varys]

18 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

It is a Black Gate, not a Black Door. There is no door there.

That doesn't change that you can talk colloquially about a gate as a door, right? 

18 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

I think the door in question may be the door to the crypts, as someone else said above.

That would provide us with no explanation of the 

Spoiler

'Hold the door' conundrum. Hodor holding some non-weirwood door is not going to shatter his mind throughout time.

 

18 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Else some other door, somewhere South of the Wall. Of course, if one doesn't want Bran to return to the North itself (because it messes up your theories if the Prince of Winterfell gets back into the mix), then a theory where Hodor dies at the Wall - robbing Bran of his mode of transport, thus necessitating a scenario where he remains in the cave - would appeal to you.

Bran isn't out of the mix in that cave. Far to the contrary, actually. He is more powerful (and much safer) than anybody else. And Bran is not going to play a role in the political field. He is a cripple, and the Northmen do not follow cripples. Nor do they like wargs or other skinchangers.

[Free Northman Reborn]

10 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That doesn't change that you can talk colloquially about a gate as a door, right? 

That would provide us with no explanation of the 

  Hide contents

'Hold the door' conundrum. Hodor holding some non-weirwood door is not going to shatter his mind throughout time.

 

Bran isn't out of the mix in that cave. Far to the contrary, actually. He is more powerful (and much safer) than anybody else. And Bran is not going to play a role in the political field. He is a cripple, and the Northmen do not follow cripples. Nor do they like wargs or other skinchangers.

He is the Prince of Winterfell. Titled as such. And witnessed as being alive by the Norrey in the Mountains. Accompanied by the heirs to one of the Great Houses of the North, the Reeds. And cripple or not, once Old Gods worshipping Northmen see a living Old God, manipulating the powers of nature like nothing seen in thousands of years, well, they won't care that he can't swing a sword. He is more powerful than any warrior.

Of course he won't have heirs. That's why his heir will likely be Rickon, in the end.

[Lord Varys]

46 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

He is the Prince of Winterfell. Titled as such. And witnessed as being alive by the Norrey in the Mountains. Accompanied by the heirs to one of the Great Houses of the North, the Reeds. And cripple or not, once Old Gods worshipping Northmen see a living Old God, manipulating the powers of nature like nothing seen in thousands of years, well, they won't care that he can't swing a sword. He is more powerful than any warrior.

But he and the Reeds didn't go to any Northern house. If George wanted to play another version of the hidden prince trope with Bran one would assume he wouldn't have crippled him in the first place, nor would he have him go to a place far away where he is trained as a sorcerer. Instead, he would have trained with Howland Reed, or with some Children of the Forest still living somewhere in the North. There was no inherent reason to have go beyond the Wall for that.

Bran is trained to see a much larger picture - the survival of mankind itself - not continue the petty politics of Westeros. Remember what suffering Bran could have prevented had Bloodraven not erased the memory of Jaime and Cersei in his mind? But he did because the greater good demanded that he got Bran. The North, the Iron Throne, and civil wars in Westeros don't matter if there is no new greenseer. Without him, everything is lost anyway. And Bran will now learn the truth behind all those legends and stories. He will learn what is actually at stake. 

In light of all that, Winterfell and the Iron Throne will be completely irrelevant.

Even if Bran wanted to influence people and command them, it would be much easier and much more impressive if he presented himself as an old god by speaking through the faces in the weirwoods. That way he could easily enough command everyone in the North, even the Boltons, without (necessarily) giving away his true identity. What do you expect the average Northman is going to do when the faces in the weirwoods suddenly began talking...? That should have about the same effect as Thoros resurrecting the dead...

And a Bran in Winterfell or somewhere else in the North might be powerful, but he would be still physically weak and could be easily killed. Why risk all that if he can do everything he wants to do from beyond the Wall? The Children care for him and protect his body as nobody else can.

[Free Northman Reborn]

7 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

But he and the Reeds didn't go to any Northern house. If George wanted to play another version of the hidden prince trope with Bran one would assume he wouldn't have crippled him in the first place, nor would he have him go to a place far away where he is trained as a sorcerer. Instead, he would have trained with Howland Reed, or with some Children of the Forest still living somewhere in the North. There was no inherent reason to have go beyond the Wall for that.

Bran is trained to see a much larger picture - the survival of mankind itself - not continue the petty politics of Westeros. Remember what suffering Bran could have prevented had Bloodraven not erased the memory of Jaime and Cersei in his mind? But he did because the greater good demanded that he got Bran. The North, the Iron Throne, and civil wars in Westeros don't matter if there is no new greenseer. Without him, everything is lost anyway. And Bran will now learn the truth behind all those legends and stories. He will learn what is actually at stake. 

In light of all that, Winterfell and the Iron Throne will be completely irrelevant.

Even if Bran wanted to influence people and command them, it would be much easier and much more impressive if he presented himself as an old god by speaking through the faces in the weirwoods. That way he could easily enough command everyone in the North, even the Boltons, without (necessarily) giving away his true identity. What do you expect the average Northman is going to do when the faces in the weirwoods suddenly began talking...? That should have about the same effect as Thoros resurrecting the dead...

And a Bran in Winterfell or somewhere else in the North might be powerful, but he would be still physically weak and could be easily killed. Why risk all that if he can do everything he wants to do from beyond the Wall? The Children care for him and protect his body as nobody else can.

Ah, but that presumes that Winterfell will not be the Heart of the war against the Others. Which I think it obviously will in fact be. With Bran at the center, on a weirwood throne in the warm Godswood, with Jon as his military commander and de facto leader of the human forces, and Rickon as his eventual heir when Jon becomes King on the Iron Throne after the War is won.

The cave will not last much longer. The ward is failing, and Bloodraven will soon die. Note that Martin wrote in Dance: 

"The ward upon the cave mouth still held; the dead men could not enter" 

Suggesting that at some point it will no longer hold. Bran will have to flee to Winterfell, where his eternal base of power will be - for thousands of years in the future, once he merges with the Winterfell Heart Tree at the end of his life.

[Lord Varys]

42 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Ah, but that presumes that Winterfell will not be the Heart of the war against the Others. Which I think it obviously will in fact be. With Bran at the center, on a weirwood throne in the warm Godswood, with Jon as his military commander and de facto leader of the human forces, and Rickon as his eventual heir when Jon becomes King on the Iron Throne after the War is won.

But why aren't the Children then not hiding beneath Winterfell? Why is Bloodraven not an ancient Stark sitting on some weirwood throne down there? Why did Bran go into the far north?

The greenseers seem to need a powerful weirwood grove to amass power, not just a single weirwood. It is made clear early on that the grove of nine weirwoods near Castle Black is a much more powerful and ominous place than the average godswood. Winterfell just has one weirwood.

42 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

The cave will not last much longer. The ward is failing, and Bloodraven will soon die. Note that Martin wrote in Dance: 

"The ward upon the cave mouth still held; the dead men could not enter" 

If the ward fails then Bran will be killed, too. This is not a badly written TV show and the Others are not stupid. If they attack this place they will have wights gathered at any possible entrance, back door included. And the chance that Bran go on a merry little tour on underground river with some kind of boat - like Tyrion toured the Rhoyne - is a scenario for some sort of cartoon but not for a fantasy novel for adults.

But back to that 

Spoiler

'Hold the door' setting.

Do you really think some irrelevant door like the crypt door of Winterfell or 'any other door' will have the repercussions on Hodor's mind we are expect to see? That doesn't make any sense. This is a detail that was in George's mind since the very beginning of the story, the very moment he invented Hodor. That is a very important moment for the entire series, and most likely connected to something the Others, the Children, and the weirwood magic.

[Free Northman Reborn]

44 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

But why aren't the Children then not hiding beneath Winterfell? Why is Bloodraven not an ancient Stark sitting on some weirwood throne down there? Why did Bran go into the far north?

The greenseers seem to need a powerful weirwood grove to amass power, not just a single weirwood. It is made clear early on that the grove of nine weirwoods near Castle Black is a much more powerful and ominous place than the average godswood. Winterfell just has one weirwood.

If the ward fails then Bran will be killed, too. This is not a badly written TV show and the Others are not stupid. If they attack this place they will have wights gathered at any possible entrance, back door included. And the chance that Bran go on a merry little tour on underground river with some kind of boat - like Tyrion toured the Rhoyne - is a scenario for some sort of cartoon but not for a fantasy novel for adults.

But back to that 

  Reveal hidden contents

'Hold the door' setting.

Do you really think some irrelevant door like the crypt door of Winterfell or 'any other door' will have the repercussions on Hodor's mind we are expect to see? That doesn't make any sense. This is a detail that was in George's mind since the very beginning of the story, the very moment he invented Hodor. That is a very important moment for the entire series, and most likely connected to something the Others, the Children, and the weirwood magic.

Lord Varys

You do like your sweeping statements of opinion presented as fact. Who are you (or I) to decide what is realistic or sensible in the context of a magical system that we know very little about? Who decides whether Hodor's mental state cannot be caused by Bran alone, without the link to the Black Gate?

I guess I am not totally against it being the Black Gate that he holds. But again, your assertions that Bran has to stay in the cave because Bloodraven and the Children stayed there have no basis in evidence. The Children were driven North of the Wall over the millenia. And Bloodraven had to find them to learn the art of greenseeing, hence his journey to the cave.

Bran is young enough not be bonded to a tree yet, and can choose where he wants to settle. Once the Wall falls, that could be anywhere.

As for deciding what makes sense in his escape from the cave and what doesn't, well, again, that's just your opinion. A journey down the river for a few hundred miles, coming out closer to the Wall or perhaps even beyond it sounds quite feasible. Or perhaps it emerges at Hardhome, where he takes a ship to Eastwatch or even Skagos.

Or maybe an orverland journey, protected by his magic.

The truth is, we don't know what he will be capable of at that point.