SaltThroneHeir

The perfumed seneschal

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10 hours ago, Forlong the Fat said:

The most obvious problem is that Varys is not a "Seneschal." 

Not in the literal sense. Buts it's not a far jump 

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23 hours ago, Foot_Of_The_King said:

Not in the literal sense. Buts it's not a far jump 

Yes it is. He's not a metaphorical seneschal, either. For Varys to be the perfumed seneschal, that word has to have almost no meaning. 

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On 6/3/2017 at 0:20 PM, Greywater-Watch said:

Why making things always so complicated?  Reznak is the perfumed seneschal. It is obvious.

It seems obvious. All the others are very obvious. 

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On 19/04/2017 at 4:26 AM, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

I think a case can be made for Illyrio.

Seneschal: an officer having full charge of domestic arrangements, ceremonies, the administration of justice, etc., in the household of a medieval prince or dignitary; steward. Origin of seneschal. Middle French. Frankish. Medieval Latin http://www.dictionary.com/browse/seneschal

This appears to be Varys. But Varys is in league with Illyrio who was harboring Dany and Viserys at his manse prior to her betrothal to Khal Drogo.

Thoughts Dany has of Illyrio Mopatis in Chapter III Daenerys GoT is that of distrust. The above describes someone of Varys position, but there is more to Illyrio.  Illyrio uses perfumes too:

"Dany could smell the stench of Illyrio's pallid flesh through his heavy perfumes."

Dany's thoughts betray that she distrusts Illyrio:

"Dany had no agents, no way of knowing what anyone was doing or thinking across the narrow sea, but she mistrusted Illyrio's sweet words as she mistrusted everything about Illyrio."

Intriguingly Tyrion has thoughts of mistrust of Illyrio the "Cheesemonger" in Tyrion Chapter I ADWD:

"Any friend of Varys the Spider is someone I will trust just as far as I can throw him."

With all the organisation and pomp Illyrio goes to (arrange), to provide a ceremony (ceremonies) of Dany and Drogo, administer in justice according to local/cultural customs, having to do with a prince or dignitary (Drogo)....Illyrio with all the strings he is pulling, has to be the perfumed seneschal Dany is warned of by Quaithe.

Edited by Weirwood Ghost

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For what it's worth, Quaithe seems to be using 'beware' to refer to people in this passage in CoK. 

Quote

Last of the three seekers to depart was Quaithe the shadowbinder. From her Dany received only a warning. “Beware,” the woman in the red lacquer mask said.

“Of whom?”

“Of all. They shall come day and night to see the wonder that has been born again into the world, and when they see they shall lust. For dragons are fire made flesh, and fire is power.”

Dany II

 

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Tyrion is the "Perfumed Seneschal" or "the Stinky Steward" in the Prophecy of Ice and Fire. You might like my analysis of the passage, where I discuss his role in Moqorro's Dragon vision (there are four persons of the vision: three dragons, Dany, Aegon "Young Griff', and Jon Snow, and one "advisor" of dubious loyalty, "the Stinky Steward" Tyrion.) It explains how the prophecies and visions we're given in Ice and Fire are all variations on a singular prophecy: the glass candles of the Citadel, Quaithe's Warning, House of the Undying, Azor Ahai/PtwP, etc. (I explore some of them herein, and explore the heart of the prophecy in my new essay series, "Deconstructing the Prophecy of Ice and Fire: the Triune Deity at War with Itself"). If you're interested to know more:

Here's a link to "Moqorro's Dragons: the Fates are Three" which explains Tyrion's role in the Prophecy of Ice and Fire by analyzing Moqorro's Dragon vision in the context of the passage that elucidates Tyrion's role for us:

I ask that you forgive some of the sloppiness of my final thoughts, as I was still forming the conclusions that led me to compose the following analysis:

Here's a link to "Deconstructing the Prophecy of Ice and Fire: the Triune Deity at War with Itself" (it's long, but the conclusion is presented first as a TL;DR, and it's a work in progress). 

 

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On 3/9/2017 at 3:37 PM, SaltThroneHeir said:

My question is about our dear Varys. Could it be him the famous perfumed seneschal ?

It's the boat. The Stinky Steward.

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I think Varys is a red herring, as is what's-his-name in Meereen. The Stinky Steward is just subtle enough to be missed on a passing read but noticeable enough on a re-read.

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On 15.9.2017 at 9:58 PM, ChuckPunch said:

I think Varys is a red herring, as is what's-his-name in Meereen. The Stinky Steward is just subtle enough to be missed on a passing read but noticeable enough on a re-read.

The ship in- and of itself can not be what Quaithe warned Dany off: that's because it gets shipwrecked and then disappears off the pages of the story.

I suppose however you mean that one of the persons on the ship could be the reason for the warning.

But this interpretation runs into a problem:

We have three noteworthy persons on the boat: Tyrion, Jorah, Moqorro. (Four if you count Penny).

Who could be meant by the warning? I think we can agree that Penny is not it. Tyrion then? Yes, Tyrion can be a very dangerous person but - he already is mentioned as the 'Lion' in this prophecy. It does not make much sense to me that Quaithe mentions him twice. Same goes for Moqorro: He already is the dark flame. (Kraken and Dark Flame).

That only leaves Jorah as the one the warning could be about if the boat is meant.

To me Jorah does not seem to be very dangerous for Dany. So I doubt he is it either.

Conclusion: The boat is not the perfumed seneschal.

***

EDIT: additional clue against the ship: the timeline.

Quaithe mentions the Griffin - which means she makes the prophecy at a time when JonCon and Aegon are still on their way to Dany, not away from her.

At that point in time the Selaesori Qhoran is not an issue because Tyrion and Jorah and Moqorro have not even boarded her yet. In fact the Lion likely still is on the riverboat with the Griffin and the Mummer's Dragon.

So if Quaithe has based her warning on Glass Candle visions (which many of us believe she has) then she doesn't really have a reason to have picked up on the Selaesori Qhoran - ship at that point.

 

 

Edited by Amris

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14 hours ago, Amris said:

The ship in- and of itself can not be what Quaithe warned Dany off: that's because it gets shipwrecked and then disappears off the pages of the story.

I suppose however you mean that one of the persons on the ship could be the reason for the warning.

But this interpretation runs into a problem:

We have three noteworthy persons on the boat: Tyrion, Jorah, Moqorro. (Four if you count Penny).

Who could be meant by the warning? I think we can agree that Penny is not it. Tyrion then? Yes, Tyrion can be a very dangerous person but - he already is mentioned as the 'Lion' in this prophecy. It does not make much sense to me that Quaithe mentions him twice. Same goes for Moqorro: He already is the dark flame. (Kraken and Dark Flame).

That only leaves Jorah as the one the warning could be about if the boat is meant.

To me Jorah does not seem to be very dangerous for Dany. So I doubt he is it either.

Conclusion: The boat is not the perfumed seneschal.

***

EDIT: additional clue against the ship: the timeline.

Quaithe mentions the Griffin - which means she makes the prophecy at a time when JonCon and Aegon are still on their way to Dany, not away from her.

At that point in time the Selaesori Qhoran is not an issue because Tyrion and Jorah and Moqorro have not even boarded her yet. In fact the Lion likely still is on the riverboat with the Griffin and the Mummer's Dragon.

So if Quaithe has based her warning on Glass Candle visions (which many of us believe she has) then she doesn't really have a reason to have picked up on the Selaesori Qhoran - ship at that point.

 

 

1 - Penny is a known Littlefinger employee, she is by no means a guaranteed "safe" person or someone who can be trusted. 

2 - You must not have had any crazy exes because Jorah could get very dangerous for Dany if his emotions dictate his decisions. He already displays stalker-like behaviors and has nothing to lose. In moments of desperation he could be wildly unpredictable.

 

On your timeline question; Quaithe making a prediction about the future sort of rules out the meaningfulness of when she made it, right? She is telling Dany people will betray her. The glass candle idea is only a theory, and Quaithe very well may be telling Dany the future events to come. 

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On 19.9.2017 at 9:25 PM, ChuckPunch said:

1 - Penny is a known Littlefinger employee, she is by no means a guaranteed "safe" person or someone who can be trusted. 

2 - You must not have had any crazy exes because Jorah could get very dangerous for Dany if his emotions dictate his decisions. He already displays stalker-like behaviors and has nothing to lose. In moments of desperation he could be wildly unpredictable.

 

On your timeline question; Quaithe making a prediction about the future sort of rules out the meaningfulness of when she made it, right? She is telling Dany people will betray her. The glass candle idea is only a theory, and Quaithe very well may be telling Dany the future events to come. 

1) I did not know that. Cool idea. Do you have text ev?

2) Jorah is neither an ex nor crazy.

3) Yes, the glass candle theory is just that, of course: a theory. But so far I haven't seen another that explains how Quaithe is able to do what she is doing as well as the glass candle theory. Do you have a better one?

Quithe does not tell Dany all those people will betray her. She just tells her to beware. That's not the same. It is much more vague. Which in turn suggests Quaithe does not really have concrete information so has to settle on a more generic warning. Which in turn speaks against a prophetic vision of Quiathe's IMO and more for her just seeing some present happenings through a glass candle and from that extrapolating for what may or may not happen in the future.

Edited by Amris

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15 hours ago, Amris said:

1) I did not know that. Cool idea. Do you have text ev?

2) Jorah is neither an ex nor crazy.

3) Yes, the glass candle theory is just that, of course: a theory. But so far I haven't seen another that explains how Quaithe is able to do what she is doing as well as the glass candle theory. Do you have a better one?

Quithe does not tell Dany all those people will betray her. She just tells her to beware. That's not the same. It is much more vague. Which in turn suggests Quaithe does not really have concrete information so has to settle on a more generic warning. Which in turn speaks against a prophetic vision of Quiathe's IMO and more for her just seeing some present happenings through a glass candle and from that extrapolating for what may or may not happen in the future.

1- Penny's first appearance is the same chapter Joff dies, a pivotal moment in the series and for Tyrion's arc. She is one of the jousting dwarves hired by Petyr. All tinfoil ideas aside this alone means she is associated with Littlefinger (even if just a little) and should not be trusted at all. 

2- Jorah is not clinically insane no. But he definitely has an obsession with Dany. 

3- We really have no idea either way on what Quaithe wants or even who she is. Not really worth discussing IMO until we get more info. 

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12 hours ago, ChuckPunch said:

1- Penny's first appearance is the same chapter Joff dies, a pivotal moment in the series and for Tyrion's arc. She is one of the jousting dwarves hired by Petyr. All tinfoil ideas aside this alone means she is associated with Littlefinger (even if just a little) and should not be trusted at all. 

2- Jorah is not clinically insane no. But he definitely has an obsession with Dany. 

3- We really have no idea either way on what Quaithe wants or even who she is. Not really worth discussing IMO until we get more info. 

1) That's it? Aww. But that's not evidence she is working for Littlefinger :( I had hoped for something substantial.

Penny did not negotiate with Littlefinger when the pair was booked for the Purple Wedding. Her brother made the arrangements alone. And even her brother was not talking with Littlefinger but with an intermediate called Oswell and according to the wiki at least did not know Oswell was a Littlefinger agent.

Also the employment of the pair for the wedding made complete sense (by creating strife) without any additional hypothizing Penny into being a sinister long-term Littlefinger employee.

 

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Quaithe probably wanted to warn her not to trust people who follow her just to achieve their goals. All of these came/are coming to her for revenge, power, legitimisation, dragons, betrothal and not because they trully support her like Missandei/Barristan/Greyworm. The perfumed seneschal is probably a warning against Illyrio and Varys. Dany is unaware of Illyrio's double game. 

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Yeah, my 5 cents is on the cheesemonger, him and Varys have invested huge amount of time and effort on installing the mummer's dragon on the throne and Dany's kind of mucked up their scheming many times over, they never intended for Dany to rule but have groomed the young dragon his whole life. 

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On 9/21/2017 at 10:43 PM, ChuckPunch said:

1- Penny's first appearance is the same chapter Joff dies, a pivotal moment in the series and for Tyrion's arc. She is one of the jousting dwarves hired by Petyr. All tinfoil ideas aside this alone means she is associated with Littlefinger (even if just a little) and should not be trusted at all. 

2- Jorah is not clinically insane no. But he definitely has an obsession with Dany. 

3- We really have no idea either way on what Quaithe wants or even who she is. Not really worth discussing IMO until we get more info. 

OMG, I personally feel that if Penny truly is in LF's employ it would be an extraordinary twist!!!  Wow, like really WTF twist!!!  I like Penny, although I find her annoying more oft than not but I like her and I have never doubted her sincerity and her personality and behaviour towards Tyrion doesn't seem to point this way.  Again, she is a mummer!!!  If she was actually pulling this off, this would probably make her one of the best mummers in the history of Planetos lol  I have to admit I would find this twist bitter sweet in many, many ways.

There are tons of theories on Penny, mainly that she could be Tyrion's daughter by Tysha but the math doesn't add up age wise unless she is much younger that Tyrion reckons.  Still I guess she could be Tyrion's daughter with someone else but this wouldn't make a lot of plot sense either.  Now she is pretty destitute when she meets Tyrion in Essos and it is not beyond the realm of imagination that LF could have tracked her back after her brother was killed in Tyrion's stead and "seduce" her with both coin and opportunity for true revenge and the rest is mummery.  The main problem I have with this in the narrative is that I am absolutely positive that Tyrion is going through a nervous breakdown after what happened at the trial and just after, and his own actions and that he is not going to stay that way for much longer.  In fact, according to George (haven't got the quote handy) he will not recover majorly until the latter part of Winds (which means he will) i.e. become still manipulative but less dark, screwed up and vindictive in an irrational manner.  So, if he were to be betrayed, yet again, but the only person he knows has as a friend he would just become totally unable to trust anyone, no matter how innocent they may seem.  His only possible role in the story after something like this would be turning into a cartoon like antagonist out for destruction upon everyone.  I said this bearing in mind that he feels betrayed by Jaime, Sansa even - although on both these cases I think it is clear that he will not allocate full blame in the end; with Jaime, the dream; with Sansa the fact that he knows she could not have acted alone; Bronn, Shae lol.  I just cannot see this being where his arc is going, just as I don't see Arya set on revenge still at the end of the series.  Besides both him and Arya are Martin's favourites and no way he is turning them into the next Ramsay, say.

However, I have to say it would be an awesome, awesome twist and would give "street cred" lol to Penny in my eyes and it would be a warning not to underestimate anyone.

Still, when LF contracted, via an agent or whatever, the dwarfs, fair enough LF had plotted the Purple Wedding but he must have been almost certain that Tyrion would carry the can and die, especially after he made Sansa disappeared and look as in cahoots with her husband.  He had no means to attaching Penny to him to spy upon or kill him or whatever, and there would have been no need.  After he escape, yes he still "needs" him dead for various reasons but how did he tracked him back.  He is a resourceful guy (LF) but, to my knowledge) he doesn't have the network that Varys does, also he would have had to keep tracks on Penny (easier though since she is not in hiding and has a mummers show going) but still.  So overall, I think this is tinfoil but a really interesting and imaginative tinfoil indeed.  Love it!!!

Now, whereas we all agree that all the players have their agendas (or most) and cannot be trusted to have Dany's best interest at heart (maybe with the exception of Jorah, who has already done his betrayal of her) unless their interest is a common one, why are we supposed to believe that Quaithe does???  To me this is the important question.  She is clearly serving some "higher purpose" a la Mel or something different but a bit on that sort of line.  Magic is heavily involved...  If the visions in THOTU are true or literal, Dany turns down the route to the IT and goes North (assumingly to fight the Others), now is Quaithe trying to get her to do this without being side-track by advisers that are more interested in her getting the IT, or keeping her stalled as it were in Essos???  I personally think Quaithe is bad news with capital letters or even more for her own agenda that kraken, lion, griffin, and all of them put together lol  Again, she is certainly wise, so her warnings have some base in reality in that yes they all have their own reasons but it doesn't mean they all wish Dany ill unless she goes against them... but this fact ensures that Dany gets to believe Quaithe.

Another thing to consider in this series is that George seems to point out that prophecies are vague for one thing and tend to mainly come true when the recipient of the prophecy's acts are at least conditioned, if not determined, by them fearing them (Cersei anyone?).  I think that Quaithe is telling Danny what suits Quaithe's or whoever she represents own agenda and doing so by making her fearful of any possible allies, enemies and frenemies alike lol  If I were Dany, apart from, hey the obvious, be careful of anyone who may want your power and/or dragons, be especially aware of mysterious people a la Mirri, especially the ones that appear way more sophisticated in the magical hierarchy...

Edited by Morgana Lannister

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On 2/6/2018 at 6:34 PM, justanotheruser said:

Yeah, my 5 cents is on the cheesemonger, him and Varys have invested huge amount of time and effort on installing the mummer's dragon on the throne and Dany's kind of mucked up their scheming many times over, they never intended for Dany to rule but have groomed the young dragon his whole life. 

Or he has already betrayed Dany first by marrying her to Drogo (which backfired, quite literally lol) and then by trying to put who I am like 90% certain is his son on the IT.  It is too obvious but so were the others (dark flame, lion, griffin etc), so Quaithe was probably right but she is the one I would be worried about!!!

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Varys seems like the likeliest bet to me. Reznak is immediately though of by Dany, which kind of means it can't be him in my mind (or else why be vague about it at all). The ship is subtle enough to be what she meant, but it feels like a deliberate red herring put in. Especially when you consider that the ship was wrecked, Tyrion and Moqorro are already mentioned in the previous remarks, and Dany will already be wary of Jorah. That just leaves Penny, but there's no way that Dany could ever connect Penny to the "perfumed seneschal" unless the name of the ship they traveled on specifically comes up (which seems unlikely).

Furthermore, it seems to me that Quaithe is simply using a glass candle to observe distant events rather than seeing the future (or else she would know that the "griffin" and "mummer's dragon" would never even make it to Dany. Since none of the characters who travel on the ship were even on the Stinky Steward yet, Varys seems like a much safer bet. He's someone who will probably present himself as a friend to Dany (given that he's been grooming her "nephew" for 16 years), but is secretly a Blackfyre supporter who wants to see her out of the way.

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On 30.6.2017 at 5:47 PM, Forlong the Fat said:

The most obvious problem is that Varys is not a "Seneschal." 

Yes, this is as well for me the reason to rule him out.
And he is as well not all the times perfumed, only if he poses as Varys he uses perfumes, if he poses as the gaoler he uses stink etc. The perfume is only part of his disguise, only one part in one special disguise.

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