SaltThroneHeir

The perfumed seneschal

34 posts in this topic

10 hours ago, Forlong the Fat said:

The most obvious problem is that Varys is not a "Seneschal." 

Not in the literal sense. Buts it's not a far jump 

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23 hours ago, Foot_Of_The_King said:

Not in the literal sense. Buts it's not a far jump 

Yes it is. He's not a metaphorical seneschal, either. For Varys to be the perfumed seneschal, that word has to have almost no meaning. 

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On 6/3/2017 at 0:20 PM, Greywater-Watch said:

Why making things always so complicated?  Reznak is the perfumed seneschal. It is obvious.

It seems obvious. All the others are very obvious. 

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Posted (edited)

On 19/04/2017 at 4:26 AM, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

I think a case can be made for Illyrio.

Seneschal: an officer having full charge of domestic arrangements, ceremonies, the administration of justice, etc., in the household of a medieval prince or dignitary; steward. Origin of seneschal. Middle French. Frankish. Medieval Latin http://www.dictionary.com/browse/seneschal

This appears to be Varys. But Varys is in league with Illyrio who was harboring Dany and Viserys at his manse prior to her betrothal to Khal Drogo.

Thoughts Dany has of Illyrio Mopatis in Chapter III Daenerys GoT is that of distrust. The above describes someone of Varys position, but there is more to Illyrio.  Illyrio uses perfumes too:

"Dany could smell the stench of Illyrio's pallid flesh through his heavy perfumes."

Dany's thoughts betray that she distrusts Illyrio:

"Dany had no agents, no way of knowing what anyone was doing or thinking across the narrow sea, but she mistrusted Illyrio's sweet words as she mistrusted everything about Illyrio."

Intriguingly Tyrion has thoughts of mistrust of Illyrio the "Cheesemonger" in Tyrion Chapter I ADWD:

"Any friend of Varys the Spider is someone I will trust just as far as I can throw him."

With all the organisation and pomp Illyrio goes to (arrange), to provide a ceremony (ceremonies) of Dany and Drogo, administer in justice according to local/cultural customs, having to do with a prince or dignitary (Drogo)....Illyrio with all the strings he is pulling, has to be the perfumed seneschal Dany is warned of by Quaithe.

Edited by Weirwood Ghost

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For what it's worth, Quaithe seems to be using 'beware' to refer to people in this passage in CoK. 

Quote

Last of the three seekers to depart was Quaithe the shadowbinder. From her Dany received only a warning. “Beware,” the woman in the red lacquer mask said.

“Of whom?”

“Of all. They shall come day and night to see the wonder that has been born again into the world, and when they see they shall lust. For dragons are fire made flesh, and fire is power.”

Dany II

 

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Tyrion is the "Perfumed Seneschal" or "the Stinky Steward" in the Prophecy of Ice and Fire. You might like my analysis of the passage, where I discuss his role in Moqorro's Dragon vision (there are four persons of the vision: three dragons, Dany, Aegon "Young Griff', and Jon Snow, and one "advisor" of dubious loyalty, "the Stinky Steward" Tyrion.) It explains how the prophecies and visions we're given in Ice and Fire are all variations on a singular prophecy: the glass candles of the Citadel, Quaithe's Warning, House of the Undying, Azor Ahai/PtwP, etc. (I explore some of them herein, and explore the heart of the prophecy in my new essay series, "Deconstructing the Prophecy of Ice and Fire: the Triune Deity at War with Itself"). If you're interested to know more:

Here's a link to "Moqorro's Dragons: the Fates are Three" which explains Tyrion's role in the Prophecy of Ice and Fire by analyzing Moqorro's Dragon vision in the context of the passage that elucidates Tyrion's role for us:

I ask that you forgive some of the sloppiness of my final thoughts, as I was still forming the conclusions that led me to compose the following analysis:

Here's a link to "Deconstructing the Prophecy of Ice and Fire: the Triune Deity at War with Itself" (it's long, but the conclusion is presented first as a TL;DR, and it's a work in progress). 

 

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On 3/9/2017 at 3:37 PM, SaltThroneHeir said:

My question is about our dear Varys. Could it be him the famous perfumed seneschal ?

It's the boat. The Stinky Steward.

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I think Varys is a red herring, as is what's-his-name in Meereen. The Stinky Steward is just subtle enough to be missed on a passing read but noticeable enough on a re-read.

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On 15.9.2017 at 9:58 PM, ChuckPunch said:

I think Varys is a red herring, as is what's-his-name in Meereen. The Stinky Steward is just subtle enough to be missed on a passing read but noticeable enough on a re-read.

The ship in- and of itself can not be what Quaithe warned Dany off: that's because it gets shipwrecked and then disappears off the pages of the story.

I suppose however you mean that one of the persons on the ship could be the reason for the warning.

But this interpretation runs into a problem:

We have three noteworthy persons on the boat: Tyrion, Jorah, Moqorro. (Four if you count Penny).

Who could be meant by the warning? I think we can agree that Penny is not it. Tyrion then? Yes, Tyrion can be a very dangerous person but - he already is mentioned as the 'Lion' in this prophecy. It does not make much sense to me that Quaithe mentions him twice. Same goes for Moqorro: He already is the dark flame. (Kraken and Dark Flame).

That only leaves Jorah as the one the warning could be about if the boat is meant.

To me Jorah does not seem to be very dangerous for Dany. So I doubt he is it either.

Conclusion: The boat is not the perfumed seneschal.

***

EDIT: additional clue against the ship: the timeline.

Quaithe mentions the Griffin - which means she makes the prophecy at a time when JonCon and Aegon are still on their way to Dany, not away from her.

At that point in time the Selaesori Qhoran is not an issue because Tyrion and Jorah and Moqorro have not even boarded her yet. In fact the Lion likely still is on the riverboat with the Griffin and the Mummer's Dragon.

So if Quaithe has based her warning on Glass Candle visions (which many of us believe she has) then she doesn't really have a reason to have picked up on the Selaesori Qhoran - ship at that point.

 

 

Edited by Amris

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14 hours ago, Amris said:

The ship in- and of itself can not be what Quaithe warned Dany off: that's because it gets shipwrecked and then disappears off the pages of the story.

I suppose however you mean that one of the persons on the ship could be the reason for the warning.

But this interpretation runs into a problem:

We have three noteworthy persons on the boat: Tyrion, Jorah, Moqorro. (Four if you count Penny).

Who could be meant by the warning? I think we can agree that Penny is not it. Tyrion then? Yes, Tyrion can be a very dangerous person but - he already is mentioned as the 'Lion' in this prophecy. It does not make much sense to me that Quaithe mentions him twice. Same goes for Moqorro: He already is the dark flame. (Kraken and Dark Flame).

That only leaves Jorah as the one the warning could be about if the boat is meant.

To me Jorah does not seem to be very dangerous for Dany. So I doubt he is it either.

Conclusion: The boat is not the perfumed seneschal.

***

EDIT: additional clue against the ship: the timeline.

Quaithe mentions the Griffin - which means she makes the prophecy at a time when JonCon and Aegon are still on their way to Dany, not away from her.

At that point in time the Selaesori Qhoran is not an issue because Tyrion and Jorah and Moqorro have not even boarded her yet. In fact the Lion likely still is on the riverboat with the Griffin and the Mummer's Dragon.

So if Quaithe has based her warning on Glass Candle visions (which many of us believe she has) then she doesn't really have a reason to have picked up on the Selaesori Qhoran - ship at that point.

 

 

1 - Penny is a known Littlefinger employee, she is by no means a guaranteed "safe" person or someone who can be trusted. 

2 - You must not have had any crazy exes because Jorah could get very dangerous for Dany if his emotions dictate his decisions. He already displays stalker-like behaviors and has nothing to lose. In moments of desperation he could be wildly unpredictable.

 

On your timeline question; Quaithe making a prediction about the future sort of rules out the meaningfulness of when she made it, right? She is telling Dany people will betray her. The glass candle idea is only a theory, and Quaithe very well may be telling Dany the future events to come. 

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On 19.9.2017 at 9:25 PM, ChuckPunch said:

1 - Penny is a known Littlefinger employee, she is by no means a guaranteed "safe" person or someone who can be trusted. 

2 - You must not have had any crazy exes because Jorah could get very dangerous for Dany if his emotions dictate his decisions. He already displays stalker-like behaviors and has nothing to lose. In moments of desperation he could be wildly unpredictable.

 

On your timeline question; Quaithe making a prediction about the future sort of rules out the meaningfulness of when she made it, right? She is telling Dany people will betray her. The glass candle idea is only a theory, and Quaithe very well may be telling Dany the future events to come. 

1) I did not know that. Cool idea. Do you have text ev?

2) Jorah is neither an ex nor crazy.

3) Yes, the glass candle theory is just that, of course: a theory. But so far I haven't seen another that explains how Quaithe is able to do what she is doing as well as the glass candle theory. Do you have a better one?

Quithe does not tell Dany all those people will betray her. She just tells her to beware. That's not the same. It is much more vague. Which in turn suggests Quaithe does not really have concrete information so has to settle on a more generic warning. Which in turn speaks against a prophetic vision of Quiathe's IMO and more for her just seeing some present happenings through a glass candle and from that extrapolating for what may or may not happen in the future.

Edited by Amris

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15 hours ago, Amris said:

1) I did not know that. Cool idea. Do you have text ev?

2) Jorah is neither an ex nor crazy.

3) Yes, the glass candle theory is just that, of course: a theory. But so far I haven't seen another that explains how Quaithe is able to do what she is doing as well as the glass candle theory. Do you have a better one?

Quithe does not tell Dany all those people will betray her. She just tells her to beware. That's not the same. It is much more vague. Which in turn suggests Quaithe does not really have concrete information so has to settle on a more generic warning. Which in turn speaks against a prophetic vision of Quiathe's IMO and more for her just seeing some present happenings through a glass candle and from that extrapolating for what may or may not happen in the future.

1- Penny's first appearance is the same chapter Joff dies, a pivotal moment in the series and for Tyrion's arc. She is one of the jousting dwarves hired by Petyr. All tinfoil ideas aside this alone means she is associated with Littlefinger (even if just a little) and should not be trusted at all. 

2- Jorah is not clinically insane no. But he definitely has an obsession with Dany. 

3- We really have no idea either way on what Quaithe wants or even who she is. Not really worth discussing IMO until we get more info. 

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12 hours ago, ChuckPunch said:

1- Penny's first appearance is the same chapter Joff dies, a pivotal moment in the series and for Tyrion's arc. She is one of the jousting dwarves hired by Petyr. All tinfoil ideas aside this alone means she is associated with Littlefinger (even if just a little) and should not be trusted at all. 

2- Jorah is not clinically insane no. But he definitely has an obsession with Dany. 

3- We really have no idea either way on what Quaithe wants or even who she is. Not really worth discussing IMO until we get more info. 

1) That's it? Aww. But that's not evidence she is working for Littlefinger :( I had hoped for something substantial.

Penny did not negotiate with Littlefinger when the pair was booked for the Purple Wedding. Her brother made the arrangements alone. And even her brother was not talking with Littlefinger but with an intermediate called Oswell and according to the wiki at least did not know Oswell was a Littlefinger agent.

Also the employment of the pair for the wedding made complete sense (by creating strife) without any additional hypothizing Penny into being a sinister long-term Littlefinger employee.

 

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