CERSEI'S Trial: The Mountain VS !!!!!!!! - realistic way forward?

[Beautiful Bloody Sword]

8 hours ago, devilish said:

A badly burnt but still fully functional Loras would be bad ass. His skills with the sword are at par with Jamie's + his cockiness would vanish replaced by hate towards a queen who sent him to his death based on lies. Its fitting for a round 2 between the two especially since he'll be badly burnt just like the Hound who saved his life first time round

Loras is not on par with a two handed Jaime, not even close. Garlan Tyrell is well established as a better sword than Loras, and Garlan is not as good as Jaime. 

[The Fresh PtwP]

3 hours ago, Beautiful Bloody Sword said:

Loras is not on par with a two handed Jaime, not even close. Garlan Tyrell is well established as a better sword than Loras, and Garlan is not as good as Jaime. 

I agree Loras isn't on par with Jaime, although I think it is close.

How do you know Garlan isn't as good as Jaime?

[Sator]

On ‎3‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 6:49 PM, snow is the man said:

Her trial is only three days (I think) from the time we see kevan die. I don't think aegon's invasion will make that much of a difference in a week.

True, but surely the murder of the both the Grand Maester and the Regent will throw the schedule back a bit, if only to make room for the funerals.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

21 hours ago, Sator said:

True, but surely the murder of the both the Grand Maester and the Regent will throw the schedule back a bit, if only to make room for the funerals.

Depends. The High Sparrow might insist it goes ahead anyway.

 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

6 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Depends. The High Sparrow might insist it goes ahead anyway.

 

With the star witness against Margaery murdered, he would have reason to insist on her trial going forward. It makes it look like her family took him out so she'd walk. 

[TeethGrinder]

I also think it will be a non-event. The Dornish contingent will immediately see Cersei lied about Gregor though.

Cleganebowl isn't impossible and I do it's foreshadowed at some point but it would take a lot of pieces convienantly falling into place. 

[chrisdaw]

It's really obvious and takes a whole 3 lines to explain. Theodan fights for the Faith, that is the whole reason why the character was introduced. Ungregor is going to tear him apart, this isn't anti-climactic because Cersei's trial isn't a climax, not for Ungregor, not for Cersei and not for the Faith. The climax is Cleganebowl, the purpose of this duel is to build Ungregor up as all invincible so that when Sandor and the other six bring him down it's all the more epic, and when Sansa puts her life in their hands it's all the more courageous.

[snow is the man]

3 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

With the star witness against Margaery murdered, he would have reason to insist on her trial going forward. It makes it look like her family took him out so she'd walk. 

his testimony is already there. I doubt the faith would suddenly say because he isn't here we can't use what he said. And the high sparrow is more interested in cersei's trial in truth. She is the one he wants to make an absolute example of to show that noone is above his law. margaery's crime's pale in comparison to cersei's.

[Bonkers]

On 11/03/2017 at 2:42 AM, zandru said:

Clearly, you aren't writing from the United States ... this would have been an out-patient procedure here, or overnight stay at best, with a minimum of $1,500 deductible, regardless of how severe the break was... I hope you're doing better now!

 

LOL, no I am in Australia. All paid for in public hospital under Medicare - our public healthcare system.  Even the ambulance $1174 fee was waived.  I was kept in the hospital as I was so smashed up inside they had to keep me in until swelling went down....the only upside was the drugs, nurse assistance and a toilet on wheels!!!  (commode).  Thanks, I am slowly managing to get around, but I am soooo over it!  Just me and my 6 year old little girl...she is my life saver!

[Bonkers]

3 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

With the star witness against Margaery murdered, he would have reason to insist on her trial going forward. It makes it look like her family took him out so she'd walk. 

OMG.... I never considered that!  Dang, with Pycelle dead I hope I still get my answer about the Moon-tea, cause that is bugging me LOL

[Bonkers]

41 minutes ago, TeethGrinder said:

I also think it will be a non-event. The Dornish contingent will immediately see Cersei lied about Gregor though.

Cleganebowl isn't impossible and I do it's foreshadowed at some point but it would take a lot of pieces convienantly falling into place. 

THIS!  Wheels within wheels....can't wait to see Cersei try manage all the problems she has created haha

[snow is the man]

I think alot of people forget that the high sparrow and his followes will not care that pycelle died. It isn't like a "real" court like many countries today have. It doesn't matter that pycelle is dead they know what he said and would repeat it with perhaps extra stuff in it. Also Pycelle wasn't very important to cersei's trial if I remember and that is the one the high sparrow wants above all.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

2 hours ago, snow is the man said:

his testimony is already there. I doubt the faith would suddenly say because he isn't here we can't use what he said. And the high sparrow is more interested in cersei's trial in truth. She is the one he wants to make an absolute example of to show that noone is above his law. margaery's crime's pale in comparison to cersei's.

He hasn't testified during trial though. He would have had an opportunity to recant his statement if false, or to firm it up if true.

Margaery's crime is high treason, same as some of Cersei's. Marg just didn't have anyone killed that we know of.

I think the High Sparrow would take either one. A queen is a queen, and either queen being punished makes his point that no one is above the law. 

2 hours ago, snow is the man said:

I think alot of people forget that the high sparrow and his followes will not care that pycelle died. It isn't like a "real" court like many countries today have. It doesn't matter that pycelle is dead they know what he said and would repeat it with perhaps extra stuff in it. Also Pycelle wasn't very important to cersei's trial if I remember and that is the one the high sparrow wants above all.

I think you are assuming that the HS and his followers won't care that Pycelle was murdered. If he'd just died in his sleep that would be one thing, but there's no question it was murder, and that makes the Tyrells look responsible, which in turn makes Margaery look guilty.

We haven't seen a trial of the faith yet. It may run very similar to the courts of medieval Europe, in which case Pycelle would have been called to testify in Marg's trial, and the fact that someone bumped him off before he could do so looks fishy.

 

[aryagonnakill#2]

2 hours ago, snow is the man said:

his testimony is already there. I doubt the faith would suddenly say because he isn't here we can't use what he said. And the high sparrow is more interested in cersei's trial in truth. She is the one he wants to make an absolute example of to show that noone is above his law. margaery's crime's pale in comparison to cersei's.

Cersei is accused of fathering Tommen as a bastard, and Tommen legalized the faith militant.  Should Cersei be convicted, Tommens order becomes mute.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

6 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

Cersei is accused of fathering Tommen as a bastard, and Tommen legalized the faith militant.  Should Cersei be convicted, Tommens order becomes mute.

That's a very interesting point. Seems the HS has little choice but to make sure she wins then. 

[Dain]

On 3/10/2017 at 10:44 AM, zandru said:

On 3/10/2017 at 0:13 PM, devilish said:

A badly burnt but still fully functional Loras would be bad ass. His skills with the sword are at par with Jamie's + his cockiness would vanish replaced by hate towards a queen who sent him to his death based on lies. Its fitting for a round 2 between the two especially since he'll be badly burnt just like the Hound who saved his life first time round

IIRC the descriptions of his injury have him barely alive. I believe he's either fine (it was all a ruse and he was never burned) or he's in really bad shape with burns over much of his body. Far more severe than the Hound's relatively minor injuries that covered a small portion of his body. If he does manage to survive, he won't be fighting anytime soon, certainly won't be fighting well.

I'd also argue that his skills were not on par with Jamie's, who is widely known as one of the best fighters (or used to be) alive. I think most of his renown came from fighting at tourneys. He fought in the Battle of the Blackwater and then (maybe) the Dragonstone Siege. He must be good to be appointed to the KG, and Jaime notes how he's just like he was at that age. But he's no great warrior, like Jaime was. He is, afterall, "a knight of summer, and Winter is Coming."

[Dain]

1 hour ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

Cersei is accused of fathering Tommen as a bastard, and Tommen legalized the faith militant.  Should Cersei be convicted, Tommens order becomes mute.

You're right, in fact doesn't Kevan say that they all (Lannisters and Tyrells) need her to be exonerated or they're all out of power. He was talking about the Tyrells and Lannisters, not the Faith though. Not sure how that'd play into it.

On second thought, the Faith is in power and the HS believes that power is by mandate of the people. In many regards, he's right. They have a fanatic following and seem to have a fair portion of the smallfolk behind them.  The HS might not care about this technicality. Power is power.  HS has an army and a voice amongst the smallfolk. If he could ally with a few lords, he's be well-positioned to stand against anyone that cared to challenge their legitimacy.

The fact that Tommen's proclamations are no longer valid might be lost on the smallfolk, anyway. They see the Faith as protectors of the smallfolk - half of its army is comprised of smallfolk. 

[Bonkers]

Regarding Loras, I think he is fine.  A few hints make me believe he has taken the Redwyne fleet to Highgarden past Dorne.  There is the Septons escorting Cersei to confess to the HS who start to talk about him (and is quickly shushed - although I don't think Loras' name is mentioned), and the epilogue to Dance when Mace says his 'sons' will take back the Shields.  Loras isn't directly mentioned but the wording makes me think that the Small Council are aware of Loras' trip by this stage, and that Garlen and he will fight - while Willis remains at Highgarden.  No direct evidence, but that's my sense of it.

[devilish]

4 hours ago, Dain said:

IIRC the descriptions of his injury have him barely alive. I believe he's either fine (it was all a ruse and he was never burned) or he's in really bad shape with burns over much of his body. Far more severe than the Hound's relatively minor injuries that covered a small portion of his body. If he does manage to survive, he won't be fighting anytime soon, certainly won't be fighting well.

I'd also argue that his skills were not on par with Jamie's, who is widely known as one of the best fighters (or used to be) alive. I think most of his renown came from fighting at tourneys. He fought in the Battle of the Blackwater and then (maybe) the Dragonstone Siege. He must be good to be appointed to the KG, and Jaime notes how he's just like he was at that age. But he's no great warrior, like Jaime was. He is, afterall, "a knight of summer, and Winter is Coming."

Medieval management is very unfair. The first born inherits everything and the others, well, they have to arrange around that. Noblemen would know about that and would invest as much as they could on their children upbringing because he knows that free lunch will end once he's dead. Orders such as the Knights of St John was littered by 2nd-3rd sons, same as the Church. Their father would invest heavily on their education and on winning influence in such organizations for the sole reason to make sure he'll secure his children's future when he's gone

Loras is a third son. His chances of ever becoming LP of the Reach are reduced to nil and his training would probably reflect that. It would be more focused on giving service to his father, brother and nephew rather then managing. He'll be the one training the LP children in sword fighting (because he's one of the family + he's well educated) and he'll be the one to risk his neck in a war (because a Tyrell must do it and no sane family would risk the LP for that) . His alleged sexual orientation (whether justified or not) will also have a bearing on training. His father would want to get rid of a kid like that to avoid scandal. In medieval times that would mean two things either the church or a military order (ex the templars

Its not all doom and gloom though. Loras is blessed of coming from a rich family which means that he'll enjoy the best tutors and the best armour. He was also born in a region (South Reach, part of Dorne and the Stormlands) which produced great fighters from Robert to Selmy, from Sir Arthur to the White Bull. In few words Loras should be a great swordsman and yet he's not treated as so. Is it down to unfair criticism or is it down to more?

I think its both. Loras is a great fighter and that was evident during the melee at Bitterbridge were 116 knights from the Reach and the Stormlands fought for Renly's favour. Loras reach the final until he was beaten by Brienne in a 'dishonorable way'. He also kills Robar Royce and Emmon Cuy who are hardly weaklings, having both served in Renly's rainbow guard.

However his fight against Brienne also show Loras weakness. Training tells only part of the story. A great swordsmen must also have a certain attitude too. He must be humble enough never to underestimate his opponent or worse, play around him. A wounded animal is unpredictable + in a time of war you need to get rid of the opponent quickly as you cant risk being surrounded. I think that Loras major weakness was his cockiness. That's fair enough in tournaments as tournaments have rules. However in something more serious things rules goes out of the window and an opponent cant afford being cocky. As you said, Loras is a knight of summer.  

Which leads us to the next question. Is Loras still a knight of summer? We know that at dragonstone he suffered from grievous injuries. That's on hell of a baptism of fire isn't it? Loras prior Dragonstone would have no chance against the Mountain. I am not that certain now though

 

[aryagonnakill#2]

6 hours ago, Dain said:

You're right, in fact doesn't Kevan say that they all (Lannisters and Tyrells) need her to be exonerated or they're all out of power. He was talking about the Tyrells and Lannisters, not the Faith though. Not sure how that'd play into it.

On second thought, the Faith is in power and the HS believes that power is by mandate of the people. In many regards, he's right. They have a fanatic following and seem to have a fair portion of the smallfolk behind them.  The HS might not care about this technicality. Power is power.  HS has an army and a voice amongst the smallfolk. If he could ally with a few lords, he's be well-positioned to stand against anyone that cared to challenge their legitimacy.

The fact that Tommen's proclamations are no longer valid might be lost on the smallfolk, anyway. They see the Faith as protectors of the smallfolk - half of its army is comprised of smallfolk. 

Well your right that we don't really know how the HS views that stuff, but he would be taking an awfully big risk, especially since he already completely humiliated Cersei, which I think proves the point about no one being above the law.  Whoever winds up on the throne only has to wait a few months for everything to settle down and he will be the 1 in control again, the HS only got any power to begin with because of all the turmoil.

Army is also a pretty loose term for his forces at this point.  Mace Tyrell has an army, the HS has a band of at most a couple hundred people.  We know he has support in the Riverlands, but that is because of all the terrible things that happened there.  I'm not sure we really know how the general population feels about him, I believe there were protests when he arrested Margery.  The people of Kings Landing suffered through the siege, but now they are doing just fine and thus there are probably many who just want things back the way they were, including wine and prostitutes.