Viserys meets the dragon

[cgrav]

Is it possible that Viserys's death was required to wake the dragons? Mel talks about the needing to kill two kings, father then son. Even though he was usurped, Viserys was the rightful King in terms of lineage and custom. 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

4 hours ago, cgrav said:

Is it possible that Viserys's death was required to wake the dragons? Mel talks about the needing to kill two kings, father then son. Even though he was usurped, Viserys was the rightful King in terms of lineage and custom. 

Hard to say. There was a decent stretch of time between Viserys' death and the actual hatching. It seems more likely that Drogo and MMD were the primary deaths involved, with the possible additions of the horse, and Dany's essentially offering herself to the flames (only to be rejected like in Joe vs The Volcano). Rhaego's death was closer to the hatching than Viserys' was. 

Mel may or may not know a thing about this. I think she dropped out of the Asshai'i Holistic Technical Institute before getting her degree. If we go with Viserys as a king, then he lacks a son. If we go with Aerys and Viserys, well it doesn't work because Aerys' death was in KL 15 years before and presumably nowhere near the eggs. It would help to find out why Mel thinks they need a father-son duo to pull this off. Maybe because she's trying to hatch it from stone instead of from an egg? 

However...if we eliminate time and location issues, we could technically bring in Rhaegar and Jon as an appropriate dragon launching team.

[cgrav]

1 hour ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

 

Mel may or may not know a thing about this. I think she dropped out of the Asshai'i Holistic Technical Institute before getting her degree. If we go with Viserys as a king, then he lacks a son. If we go with Aerys and Viserys, well it doesn't work because Aerys' death was in KL 15 years before and presumably nowhere near the eggs. It would help to find out why Mel thinks they need a father-son duo to pull this off. Maybe because she's trying to hatch it from stone instead of from an egg? 

I would assume time/location are irrelevant. Of course Drogo/Rhaego also fit this pattern if we do need something more immediate to the hatching.

 Rickon/Eddard can also be construed as Kings, if we want to get into the deep history and themes of reuniting GEotD bloodlines. And if we assume the dragon being woken doesn't have to be the surviving third king.

And I do like the idea of Rhaegar/Jon, with Jon dying a Snow and waking a Targaryen. 

I suspect it's one of those things that comes true in multiple ways. King, dragon, and stone can be pretty subjective terms. Dany represents the most literal fulfillment of the prophecy and Stannis the  false superficial, so we're still waiting in the symbolic one (yeah probably Jon). 

The "two kings" thing is also an astrology reference, as "three kings" refers to Orion's Belt, which is significant in solstice related stuff. My thought is that "waking the dragon" refers ambiguously to both the moon disaster and the end of astronomical winter (which I believe happened simultaneously).

 

[Aetta]

Interesting.  As interesting as the paradox that is Viserys.

As Dany herself noted, Viserys was consumed with nothing but rage once he sold his mother's crown (last straw and all that)....but....

Dany is the 5 ga-zillionth dragon rider in this world's history, she's not special on that front.  Nor were Targs particularly special Dragonlords in Valyria.  So I don't give her amazing props and certainly don't think the dragons are hers to give.  She could not even have hatched them without Mirri.

Viserys would've been a dragon rider, I have no doubt.  Dragons don't really give a shit if you're a nice person.  I also believe he could have been educated enough, given that he taught Dany a few things about his family, to know he could not tame all three dragons unto himself.  Further, I don't think he wanted to keep Dany from being a Targaryen, I think he wanted to keep Dany from losing focus on getting back to Westeros.

The Viserys we know would have mounted his dragon and headed straight for Westeros.  Which is really a very Visenya Targaryan thing to do, to go unleash your badassery. Uh, no I am not saying he's Visenya, I'm saying he is the double inbred blood of the dragon with daddy issues. Recipe for burning the shit out of King's Landing in a blaze of glory.

I don't think a dragon would humble Viserys, I think it would make him a true Dragonlord.  Not all Dragonlords were sugary sweet people, ask Nymeria. And not all Dragonlords won the day, either.

 

 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

1 hour ago, Aetta said:

Interesting.  As interesting as the paradox that is Viserys.

As Dany herself noted, Viserys was consumed with nothing but rage once he sold his mother's crown (last straw and all that)....but....

Dany is the 5 ga-zillionth dragon rider in this world's history, she's not special on that front.  Nor were Targs particularly special Dragonlords in Valyria.  So I don't give her amazing props and certainly don't think the dragons are hers to give.  She could not even have hatched them without Mirri.

Viserys would've been a dragon rider, I have no doubt.  Dragons don't really give a shit if you're a nice person.  I also believe he could have been educated enough, given that he taught Dany a few things about his family, to know he could not tame all three dragons unto himself.  Further, I don't think he wanted to keep Dany from being a Targaryen, I think he wanted to keep Dany from losing focus on getting back to Westeros.

The Viserys we know would have mounted his dragon and headed straight for Westeros.  Which is really a very Visenya Targaryan thing to do, to go unleash your badassery. Uh, no I am not saying he's Visenya, I'm saying he is the double inbred blood of the dragon with daddy issues. Recipe for burning the shit out of King's Landing in a blaze of glory.

I don't think a dragon would humble Viserys, I think it would make him a true Dragonlord.  Not all Dragonlords were sugary sweet people, ask Nymeria. And not all Dragonlords won the day, either.

 

 

That's quite a statement. What exactly makes you think she needed Mirri Maz Duur in order to hatch dragons when dragons were hatched by Valryians for centuries before MMD was even born? Magic had already returned the world. MMD didn't bring it, and there is no indication that her training had anything to do with dragons.

I don't think he cared about Dany much at all. She was a pawn, just as royal women and girls were pawns for ages. He wanted Westeros for himself and for revenge. Dany was a means to an end. If he'd married her she still wouldn't have been important to him as anything but a vessel for producing the next generation of mini-Viserys'.

[Aetta]

24 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

That's quite a statement. What exactly makes you think she needed Mirri Maz Duur in order to hatch dragons when dragons were hatched by Valryians for centuries before MMD was even born? Magic had already returned the world. MMD didn't bring it, and there is no indication that her training had anything to do with dragons.

I don't think he cared about Dany much at all. She was a pawn, just as royal women and girls were pawns for ages. He wanted Westeros for himself and for revenge. Dany was a means to an end. If he'd married her she still wouldn't have been important to him as anything but a vessel for producing the next generation of mini-Viserys'.

Take your pick from this thread (instead of me rehashing here. Yep, lazy), but I'm wit them: 

 

Pawn indeed...completely objectionable in a world with our sensibilities.  In the world of ice and fire, however, it is well established that women take a subservient role, with the exception of Dorne, and I don't think Viserys cares about Dornish law.  Even the most feminist characters in our story are dulled in comparison to real life, modern counterparts.  Again, I don't believe Viserys wanted to strip Dany of her Targ card (elsewise, why not have sold her into slavery long before?) but I sure wasn't saying he wanted to worship her, either.  Visenya and Aegon weren't besties, either, Visenya going so far as to slash Aegon's face. But they were three riders, three dragons and needed each other on the battlefield.  We're talking about a hypothetical wherein the dragons are born and Viserys is alive.  That in and of itself changes the dynamic because the family of two is drawn together by fire and blood.

 

ETA-Think Aerys and Rhaella.  He shit on her. He beat her, he despised her.  Does that mean she was any less royal, any less necessary, or any less important to the future of the realm?

[Lady Blizzardborn]

53 minutes ago, Aetta said:

Take your pick from this thread (instead of me rehashing here. Yep, lazy), but I'm wit them: 

 

Pawn indeed...completely objectionable in a world with our sensibilities.  In the world of ice and fire, however, it is well established that women take a subservient role, with the exception of Dorne, and I don't think Viserys cares about Dornish law.  Even the most feminist characters in our story are dulled in comparison to real life, modern counterparts.  Again, I don't believe Viserys wanted to strip Dany of her Targ card (elsewise, why not have sold her into slavery long before?) but I sure wasn't saying he wanted to worship her, either.  Visenya and Aegon weren't besties, either, Visenya going so far as to slash Aegon's face. But they were three riders, three dragons and needed each other on the battlefield.  We're talking about a hypothetical wherein the dragons are born and Viserys is alive.  That in and of itself changes the dynamic because the family of two is drawn together by fire and blood.

 

ETA-Think Aerys and Rhaella.  He shit on her. He beat her, he despised her.  Does that mean she was any less royal, any less necessary, or any less important to the future of the realm?

Referring people to other threads is totally fine. I can see the fire-protection thing maybe but the egg hatching? Nah. The return of magic seems to have more to do with that. Dragon eggs hatched on their own just fine without sorceresses singing in fires before magic went into hibernation.

Please understand that I'm not trying to judge the story by applying the standards of our time. Dany's value to Viserys as a pawn is entirely appropriate for the setting. He doesn't sell her as a slave because he can trade her for political power in the form of an army. But other than having kept her alive he doesn't show any concern for her as a human being as other brothers might, even while still planning to barter her for their own best advantage.

Aegon treated his wives like equals for the most part, even letting them run the government for him. The dragons made a difference there, but they all grew up with the dragons, so they had an entirely different dynamic with the beasts and with each other than Viserys and Dany would have after the eggs hatch. Targaryens haven't had dragons for more than a century at this point. There are no living people who have actual experience with them, and even the readers have no way of knowing how much of the dragon knowledge in the world is legitimate and how much is apocryphal B.S. Viserys would not understand that having dragons doesn't suddenly make him Aegon the Conqueror reborn, and people are still not going to take him seriously...at least until they are big enough to ride. I don't think the dragons having hatched would fundamentally change the way Viserys views or relates to Dany. And given how much of what he did tell Dany was baloney, I'm not hopeful that he would have a great deal of practical dragonlore stored in his brain.

Aerys and Rhaella are an okay parallel, but he actually treated her decently until he went mad. No his treatment doesn't make her less royal, necessary, or important, but he was clearly showing that she was not important to HIM. That's the better parallel with Viserys. He doesn't see the point of Dany as a partner in anything. 

[Aetta]

On 3/13/2017 at 11:26 PM, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Referring people to other threads is totally fine. I can see the fire-protection thing maybe but the egg hatching? Nah. The return of magic seems to have more to do with that. Dragon eggs hatched on their own just fine without sorceresses singing in fires before magic went into hibernation.

Please understand that I'm not trying to judge the story by applying the standards of our time. Dany's value to Viserys as a pawn is entirely appropriate for the setting. He doesn't sell her as a slave because he can trade her for political power in the form of an army. But other than having kept her alive he doesn't show any concern for her as a human being as other brothers might, even while still planning to barter her for their own best advantage.

Aegon treated his wives like equals for the most part, even letting them run the government for him. The dragons made a difference there, but they all grew up with the dragons, so they had an entirely different dynamic with the beasts and with each other than Viserys and Dany would have after the eggs hatch. Targaryens haven't had dragons for more than a century at this point. There are no living people who have actual experience with them, and even the readers have no way of knowing how much of the dragon knowledge in the world is legitimate and how much is apocryphal B.S. Viserys would not understand that having dragons doesn't suddenly make him Aegon the Conqueror reborn, and people are still not going to take him seriously...at least until they are big enough to ride. I don't think the dragons having hatched would fundamentally change the way Viserys views or relates to Dany. And given how much of what he did tell Dany was baloney, I'm not hopeful that he would have a great deal of practical dragonlore stored in his brain.

Aerys and Rhaella are an okay parallel, but he actually treated her decently until he went mad. No his treatment doesn't make her less royal, necessary, or important, but he was clearly showing that she was not important to HIM. That's the better parallel with Viserys. He doesn't see the point of Dany as a partner in anything. 

Ah yes, and all of this is indeed the paradox that is Viserys.  That moment when he sold Rhaella's crown, that Dany says changed his heart...I wonder if, when they dragons were born, his whole outlook changed and his rage turned from Dany back to where it belonged (at least from his POV): The Lannisters.

I just don't see him disposing of Dany completely. I believe she was target of his rage because she was the only constant in his life.  He (in this hypothetical scenario) would have no choice but to recognize that they had three dragons and two dragonlords between them, I think he would've taken Daenerys to wife.  And she would have had him.  I base that on the fact that she seems to have some lingering remorse later on about him being out of her life, aka dead.

Odd, that it does seem young Aerys was a good man and young Viserys was not.  But Viserys was not a good man because Aerys was not.   

Finally, is Jorah in this scenario?  If he is, he could have played a CRUCIAL part in educating Viserys on how important it was to covet his sister because Westeros is a big bad world that would swallow them both unless they stuck together.

[Lord Lannister]

Honestly the only way Viserys could "chill" is if he had a suitable role model from the start. Darry was old and sickly and couldn't enforce any discipline on the young prince before he died and was left on his own. If someone like Barristan was with him perhaps he wouldn't have grown up so embittered at his fate.

[Springwatch]

On 10/03/2017 at 1:47 PM, GloubieBoulga said:

According to the fact that Daenerys has awaken the future Drogon, and that the baby Rhaego in the belly bound himself to the green-and-bronze egg : 

<snip>

and according to the fact that Viserys tried to steal an egg, I wouldn't be surprised that he awaked the third egg, the white and golden, and bound himself with him. The fact that he was half mad has nothing to do with the un-ability to bind and to ride one dragon. ^^

And perhaps, there is some part of Viserys's soul in the white dragon.

I agree with this. There were three eggs, and three Targs present - Dany, Rhaego and Viserys. And we know that even in stone eggs, the dragons have the ability to reach out - so why not?

But far from chilling out, Viserys became more and more the archetypal mad Targ.

[Lord Varys]

If Viserys had lived to see the dragons he most definitely would have been as awed as everybody else that Dany could hatched. In addition, considering that Drogo and most of the Dothraki would have been gone by then we would most likely have seen a traditional Targaryen incest marriage at this point. Viserys may have gotten much more stable as dragonrider. A lot of the Targaryen madness we know of seems connected to their lack of dragons, and Viserys wasn't even mad in any conventional sense.

[Springwatch]

There would have been tensions all the same. Viserys assumed Dany owed him total obedience as his subject and little sister. Young Dany was willing to go along with this, even as far as marriage.

But Drogon is the dominant dragon. Viserys would resent this, particularly if Dany grew to be an alpha personality under Drogon's influence.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

14 hours ago, Aetta said:

Ah yes, and all of this is indeed the paradox that is Viserys.  That moment when he sold Rhaella's crown, that Dany says changed his heart...I wonder if, when they dragons were born, his whole outlook changed and his rage turned from Dany back to where it belonged (at least from his POV): The Lannisters.

I just don't see him disposing of Dany completely. I believe she was target of his rage because she was the only constant in his life.  He (in this hypothetical scenario) would have no choice but to recognize that they had three dragons and two dragonlords between them, I think he would've taken Daenerys to wife.  And she would have had him.  I base that on the fact that she seems to have some lingering remorse later on about him being out of her life, aka dead.

Odd, that it does seem young Aerys was a good man and young Viserys was not.  But Viserys was not a good man because Aerys was not.   

Finally, is Jorah in this scenario?  If he is, he could have played a CRUCIAL part in educating Viserys on how important it was to covet his sister because Westeros is a big bad world that would swallow them both unless they stuck together.

You make some excellent points here, Aetta. Especially about Dany being a sort of lightning rod for Viserys' frustrations. She was there, she was family, she was safe.

Aerys' madness didn't start becoming evident until after Duskendale, whereas Viserys was showing some tendencies in childhood, even while he was safe and secure. It's possible that Viserys' madness came out earlier in part because of the tension he sensed in his family, and then came out more fully early on because of the instability of his life. If Rhaella had lived she might have been able to keep Viserys' mind from descending into madness quite so quickly.

I would think Jorah would have to be in the scenario. He's there with them at the start. He's there for the entire journey through the Dothraki Sea, and he's there when the dragons hatch. I'm not entirely sure Viserys would listen to Jorah though. He sure didn't listen about the Dothraki culture.

Here's a crazy question: what if Viserys' bonded dragon somehow magically absorbed some of his madness so that Viserys could be calmer? If the dragon acted up, Viserys would have laughed and said that's how dragons are, and probably given him extra treats.

[Aetta]

12 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

5 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

You make some excellent points here, Aetta. Especially about Dany being a sort of lightning rod for Viserys' frustrations. She was there, she was family, she was safe.

Aerys' madness didn't start becoming evident until after Duskendale, whereas Viserys was showing some tendencies in childhood, even while he was safe and secure. It's possible that Viserys' madness came out earlier in part because of the tension he sensed in his family, and then came out more fully early on because of the instability of his life. If Rhaella had lived she might have been able to keep Viserys' mind from descending into madness quite so quickly.

I would think Jorah would have to be in the scenario. He's there with them at the start. He's there for the entire journey through the Dothraki Sea, and he's there when the dragons hatch. I'm not entirely sure Viserys would listen to Jorah though. He sure didn't listen about the Dothraki culture.

Here's a crazy question: what if Viserys' bonded dragon somehow magically absorbed some of his madness so that Viserys could be calmer? If the dragon acted up, Viserys would have laughed and said that's how dragons are, and probably given him extra treats.

 

Now that is a fun idea!  Viserys is still a mega-dick, and so is his dragon.  OK, then he might have turned on Dany, lol.

[Weirwood Ghost]

What if Viserys had the right pheromones, the right vibe, the similar mad gene characteristics as one of the dragons. My 2 dogs have completely different personalities yet they are the same breed. I should've called Ghost "Shadow" because she follows me everywhere.

Viserion is described as cream, which could be a genetic trait:

(In dogs): "Extreme white can occasionally cause problems when it removes large amounts of pigment from the face and ears. The most common problem is deafness (due to lack of pigment in certain parts of the inner ear, which prevents it from functioning properly)". Perhaps deafness could cause a dragon to be either wild or mild. Viserys riding Viserion could be a great match:

Viserys: "No you fucking slut bitch whore dragon I said up not DOWN!"

Viserion: "...........(deaf)"

[Ralphis Baratheon]

I don't think he would be fazed. Viserys saw a Dragon every time he looked in the mirror.

 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

18 hours ago, Weirwood Ghost said:

What if Viserys had the right pheromones, the right vibe, the similar mad gene characteristics as one of the dragons. My 2 dogs have completely different personalities yet they are the same breed. I should've called Ghost "Shadow" because she follows me everywhere.

Viserion is described as cream, which could be a genetic trait:

(In dogs): "Extreme white can occasionally cause problems when it removes large amounts of pigment from the face and ears. The most common problem is deafness (due to lack of pigment in certain parts of the inner ear, which prevents it from functioning properly)". Perhaps deafness could cause a dragon to be either wild or mild. Viserys riding Viserion could be a great match:

Viserys: "No you fucking slut bitch whore dragon I said up not DOWN!"

Viserion: "...........(deaf)"

 I would have loved all of the Viserys dragonriding scenes if they'd gone like that.

ETA: do you think Ghost is deaf? That would be interesting and make the bond with Jon all the more important from Ghost's perspective because Jon is the only human who can "hear" him.