Jon's Queen Consort Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 1 hour ago, Phedra said: Thank you! I know it's quite judgemental, but I don't associate emotional intelligence with dark grey characters and generally with people who lack empathy. And Arya seems to go into that sort of direction. Do you really believe that Arya is a dark grey character? Because to me she seems like a wounded child. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philokles Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 1 hour ago, Phedra said: Thank you! I know it's quite judgemental, but I don't associate emotional intelligence with dark grey characters and generally with people who lack empathy. And Arya seems to go into that sort of direction. Arya is one of the most empathetic characters in the entire series. Pretty much everything she does that are construed as bad things are done from indignation at the atrocities and injustices committed against others. Add to that her random acts of kindness to strangers at no benefit to herself and often significant risk of harm - from rescuing Weasel, Jaqen, Rorge and Biter from being burnt alive to coming to Sam's aid in Braavos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phedra Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 6 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said: Do you really believe that Arya is a dark grey character? Because to me she seems like a wounded child. While that's true, being a child and a product of one's own harsh environment doesn't justify murderous tendencies. Her chapters are a good read but I can't say as much about her person and she's not headed towards a redemption arc either... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phedra Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 10 minutes ago, Horse of Kent said: Arya is one of the most empathetic characters in the entire series. Pretty much everything she does that are construed as bad things are done from indignation at the atrocities and injustices committed against others. Add to that her random acts of kindness to strangers at no benefit to herself and often significant risk of harm - from rescuing Weasel, Jaqen, Rorge and Biter from being burnt alive to coming to Sam's aid in Braavos. Random acts of kindness won't wash the fact that she's bloodthirsty. She killed that singer and he posed no threat to her or someone dear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rotting sea cow Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 11 minutes ago, Phedra said: While that's true, being a child and a product of one's own harsh environment doesn't justify murderous tendencies. Indeed, it doesn't justify it but it makes it understandable. I don't think many would be able to keep their minds sane after being forced to witness torture. 11 minutes ago, Phedra said: Her chapters are a good read but I can't say as much about her person and she's not headed towards a redemption arc either... She is just a child! How can you ask redemption from a child? Dareon assessination was unjustifiable, indeed, but she got her punishment for it. Sure, she still needs to grow and balance life and death, but Arya is hardly an unemphatic character. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowCat Rivers Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 22 minutes ago, Phedra said: Random acts of kindness won't wash the fact that she's bloodthirsty. She killed that singer and he posed no threat to her or someone dear. Random acts of kindness may not wash away the bad deeds, but the specific acts of kindness towards random people negate, by proof by contradiction, the assertion that she lacks empathy. This is not to say that you should like her, though, but simply, that the specific argument is invalid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philokles Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 33 minutes ago, Phedra said: she's not headed towards a redemption arc either... Quite right. She has done nothing to require redemption. 41 minutes ago, Phedra said: Random acts of kindness won't wash the fact that she's bloodthirsty. She killed that singer and he posed no threat to her or someone dear. Ned must be such an evil character for executing Gared and the three other deserters that year by that logic. Dareon deserted the Night's Watch - his life is forfeit. And he was not just any old deserter - he left Sam, Gilly, Aemon and the child to die, ignored the pressing need of the NW for more men despite knowing about the imminent invasion of the Others and this was all despite being given the cushiest job of them all in the Watch. You may not like desertion being a capital offence, but by Westerosi standards (and even our world's standards within the last century) that is the norm. Arya acted the way she did because as every tenet of her upbringing told her that was the right thing to do. That is forgetting that Dareon was only sent to the wall because he raped someone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostNymeria Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 1 hour ago, Phedra said: Thank you! I know it's quite judgemental, but I don't associate emotional intelligence with dark grey characters and generally with people who lack empathy. And Arya seems to go into that sort of direction. I disagree that she lacks empathy. There are many instances where she shows a lot of empahty, especially towards the smallfolk. Out of the Starks I would say she and Jon are the most empathic characters. Do you mean she lacks empathy towards the people she have killed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LindsayLohan Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 Question: Does anyone Hoster Blackwood's age? Cause that kid is wicked smaaaht. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a black swan Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 1 hour ago, Horse of Kent said: Arya is one of the most empathetic characters in the entire series. Pretty much everything she does that are construed as bad things are done from indignation at the atrocities and injustices committed against others. Add to that her random acts of kindness to strangers at no benefit to herself and often significant risk of harm - from rescuing Weasel, Jaqen, Rorge and Biter from being burnt alive to coming to Sam's aid in Braavos. I can't even deal with how awesome this place has been lately. So many FACTS being stated so artfully regarding Arya. I just read all these posts all and content. @ShadowCat Rivers @GhostNymeria @Jon's Queen Consort @rotting sea cow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostNymeria Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 1 hour ago, Phedra said: Random acts of kindness won't wash the fact that she's bloodthirsty. True. But random acts of bloodthirstiness won't wash away the fact that she's empathetic and kind either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
One-eyed Misbehavin Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 In order Arya,Jojen,Missandei I think Arya is still being underrated even though she is towards the top on most of these. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostNymeria Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 1 hour ago, Horse of Kent said: Arya is one of the most empathetic characters in the entire series. Pretty much everything she does that are construed as bad things are done from indignation at the atrocities and injustices committed against others. Add to that her random acts of kindness to strangers at no benefit to herself and often significant risk of harm - from rescuing Weasel, Jaqen, Rorge and Biter from being burnt alive to coming to Sam's aid in Braavos. Yes this is so true .And don't forget when Gendry and Hotpie got captured by the Mountain and co. She watched it, hidden and from a safe distance, but decided to let herself get captured as well. She did this knowing her capture would mean an uncertain future, that she could get killed and that the Lannisters were looking for her. All because she thought she couldn't abandon "her pack". She could easily have gotten away and continued towards Riverrun by herself, but their well-being was more important to her than her own. A lot of readers seem to only focus on her "bad" characteristics and completely ignore her other sides. I don't like all her actions, but I don't see how it makes her worse than the other main characters. She's truly a prime example of a grey character. She have done unselfish things that could be considered heroic, and she has also done very questionable things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philokles Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 1 hour ago, DutchArya said: I can't even deal with how awesome this place has been lately. So many FACTS being stated so artfully regarding Arya. I just read all these posts all and content. @ShadowCat Rivers @GhostNymeria @Jon's Queen Consort @rotting sea cow 24 minutes ago, GhostNymeria said: Yes this is so true .And don't forget when Gendry and Hotpie got captured by the Mountain and co. She watched it, hidden and from a safe distance, but decided to let herself get captured as well. She did this knowing her capture would mean an uncertain future, that she could get killed and that the Lannisters were looking for her. All because she thought she couldn't abandon "her pack". She could easily have gotten away and continued towards Riverrun by herself, but their well-being was more important to her than her own. A lot of readers seem to only focus on her "bad" characteristics and completely ignore her other sides. I don't like all her actions, but I don't see how it makes her worse than the other main characters. She's truly a prime example of a grey character. She have done unselfish things that could be considered heroic, and she has also done very questionable things. I'd class her as relatively light grey, like the other Stark kids and Dany. They make mistakes and do the wrong thing occasionally, but their heart is in the right place and they are still learning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostNymeria Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 1 hour ago, DutchArya said: I can't even deal with how awesome this place has been lately. So many FACTS being stated so artfully regarding Arya. I just read all these posts all and content. @ShadowCat Rivers @GhostNymeria @Jon's Queen Consort @rotting sea cow The same to you. And kudos for always supporting your arguments with plenty of textual evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pray Harder Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 Just reading the title of the thread, the first name that popped into my head was Big Walder. Forgot about Missandei, she's got to be extremely gifted but she's much less interesting than the future Lord of the Crossing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
talvikorppi Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 On Friday, March 10, 2017 at 0:51 PM, Lame Lothar Frey said: Bran Stark Willa Manderly Big Walder Frey Arya Stark Missandei from Naath Myrcella Baratheon Rickon Stark Edric Dayne Shireen Baratheon Robin Arryn Why no Little Walder on the list, he's the same age as Big Walder. Aah, he'd dead, natch. Missandei is certainly a linguistic genius. Myrcella is very good at Cyvasse (=tactical, even strategic thinking). Shireen knows her history. Arya is streetwise and smart, as is Big Walder, though he also sees the bigger picture. Bran is having to learn to be wise beyond his years but still sometimes fails that high bar. Rickon Stark is too young (but doesn't strike me as particularly smart), Sweetrobin is spoiled and stupid. Ned Dayne seems nice and fairly intelligent, Wylla Manderley might be too old for this, she certainly knows her mind... Top three: Missandei, Myrcella, Big Walder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
talvikorppi Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 8 hours ago, LindsayLohan said: Question: Does anyone Hoster Blackwood's age? Cause that kid is wicked smaaaht. I'm not sure but I think he's around 15-16. Certainly older than Sansa. Jaime, who takes him as a hostage, certainly doesn't treat him like a little kid. He treats/thinks of his "squire" (hostage) Little Lew Piper, who's 12-13, as a kid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowCat Rivers Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 15 hours ago, DutchArya said: I can't even deal with how awesome this place has been lately. So many FACTS being stated so artfully regarding Arya. I just read all these posts all and content. @ShadowCat Rivers @GhostNymeria @Jon's Queen Consort @rotting sea cow Thanks! 6 hours ago, talvikorppi said: ... Shireen knows her history. ... Nothing against Shireen, I actually quite like her, but I have the strong suspicion that the bolded claim is a show-only invention. But, since I could be wrong, can you please direct me to the book quotes that could provide evidence to this assertion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Springwatch Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 Arya is super bright, but she does make a few bad mistakes. I don't fault her for this, she's young and had everything to learn about the darker side of life. Empathy too - if she had in fact felt empathy with Rorge and Biter, she would never have let them go - they are monsters inside and out. For the rest, Missandei is streets ahead of everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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