What is Ghost?

[Therae]

1 hour ago, ravenous reader said:

Hi Therae.  I wasn't intending to come across as 'snarky'.  I am honestly perplexed!  Surely, GRRM should've said 'four remained, but one he couldn't sense'...

The use of 'and' seems to indicate something extra, a plus.  Maybe GRRM is being deliberately obtuse in order to confuse us...

By the way, which side of the Wall do you think Ghost is at, considering the mention of the 'dark wood'?

I am genuinely interested -- I have no answers!  

Thanks for that.  

It certainly would have been clearer if he had said "four, but one" -- or even "five, and one." As it is, it's hard not to wonder if he was deliberately obfuscating. Four less one and four plus one are both totally valid takes on "… and" (I'm including the elipses as the actual punctuation here), so it could go either way.

My inclination for the four less one version is because Ghost is aware of what Shaggy and Nymeria are up to at that time:

Far off, he could hear his packmates calling to him, like to like. They were hunting too. A wild rain lashed down upon his black brother as he tore at the flesh of an enormous goat, washing the blood from his side where the goat's long horn had raked him. In another place, his little sister lifted her head to sing to the moon, and a hundred small grey cousins broke off their hunt to sing with her. The hills were warmer where they were, and full of food. Many a night his sister's pack gorged on the flesh of sheep and cows and horses, the prey of men, and sometimes even on the flesh of man himself.

Then he recalls that there are fewer of them than there were:

 Once they had been six, five whimpering blind in the snow beside their dead mother, sucking cool milk from her hard dead nipples whilst he crawled off alone. Four remained … and one the white wolf could no longer sense.

And then, it seemed to me, that he was figuring out where the last of the four was by process of elimination:

On the other side the wind was colder still, the wolf sensed. That was where his brother was, the grey brother who smelled of summer.

When Jon wakes up (still DwD, Jon I), he thinks about knowing Grey Wind is dead (and I can absolutely see what you mean about there being nothing left with both Grey Wind and Robb gone):

The wolf dreams had been growing stronger, and he found himself remembering them even when awake. Ghost knows that Grey Wind is dead. Robb had died at the Twins, betrayed by men he'd believed his friends, and his wolf had perished with him.

So we know for sure he knows Grey Wind is gone. I can only suppose, but not state with absolute certainty, that Ghost also knows Lady is dead because Jon knows it:

Their wolves might have kept them safe, but Lady is dead and Nymeria's lost, they're all alone. (GoT, Jon VII)

And all the wolves that were still in Winterfell when Lady's bones were returned knew, too:

Bran felt all cold inside. "She lost her wolf," he said, weakly, remembering the day when four of his father's guardsmen had returned from the south withLady's bones. Summer and Grey Wind and Shaggydog had begun to howl before they crossed the drawbridge, in voices drawn and desolate. (GOT, Bran VI)

So it's anecdotal, but that's how it comes together for me.  

Regarding the wolf dream and where Ghost is…uuuuummmmIdunnoreally? I think he must be on the south side because both he and Jon have returned to CB by then and I just can't imagine the Watch letting him in and out of the gate every night (however, this might be an opportunity for that teleporter @The Fresh PtwP was talking about). There are those woods they were in when Jon didn't manage to successfully desert right after Ned's execution? But that's all I've got. Well, and I think that the bit about the cave where the sun hides means that he's running west along the Wall, but whether it's to his right or left, I have no idea.

[Clegane'sPup]

9 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

In order to ascertain the meaning of 'on the other side,' we obviously have to figure out if Ghost is north or south of the Wall.  What do you think?

Also, how do you interpret 'the cave of night where the sun had hidden'?

Jon woke up in his chambers when Mormont’s raven landed on his chest and screamed the word Snow.  Ghost was not there.

My guess is that Ghost is hunting south side of the Wall. There are woods south of the wall. The instance that comes to mind is while riding to Mole Town Jon & his men saw newly carved faces on various trees.

I interpret “cave of night where the sun had hidden” simply as nighttime. Depending on the phase of the moon and whether or not my back is to it, all that ahead of me is a huge cave of darkness. Imagine camping in an isolated location. No streetlights, just the moon and the stars (or not) with your flashlight in hand and a lantern lighting the tent.

Perhaps a better analogy is being on a ship looking out at the horizon in the middle of the night. I couldn’t tell where the water met the sky, only darkness and the reflection of the ships running lights bouncing off the black sea.

I’ve read some interesting threads about this dream that takes place in Jon I. For a while, because of the ellipse, I thought the “Four remained ... and one the white wolf could no longer sense.” was referring to the Stark kids. First I thought it was Arya because she is at Braavos, but nixed that because she still has wolf dreams. Some else mentioned Sansa because Lady is dead.

For me, Ghost and the direwolves relationship with the Starks is an interesting topic.  

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

12 hours ago, Therae said:

The math business was a bit undeserved. I have not been snarky, intransigent, or unfriendly, much less implied anyone was stupid, and the passages in question had already been established.

I just wanted to throw in that @ravenous reader reader was being sincere in his math questions and formulations. The four and one business can be different for certain people. Personally, I see it as a total of five but can understand if some people see it differently. 

Anyways, I just wanted to say that the math stuff by RR was sincere and she was not meaning offense. 

12 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

Maybe GRRM is being deliberately obtuse in order to confuse us...

Would we want it any other way?

[White Ravens]

27 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

I just wanted to throw in that @ravenous reader reader was being sincere in his math questions and formulations. The four and one business can be different for certain people. Personally, I see it as a total of five but can understand if some people see it differently. 

Anyways, I just wanted to say that the math stuff by RR was sincere and she was not meaning offense. 

 

 

RR and Therae already worked this out without your help so why get involved now?  For what it's worth it was RR who was insensitive with their wording and they have already done the right thing by apologizing when they got called on it. 

 

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'Four' and 'one'...4 plus 1 = five.  Are you in agreement with the math?

 

It was offensive because it suggests that Therae is not smart enough to understand a very basic math concept when the misunderstanding actually stemmed from GRRM's words being interpreted differently by the two posters involved in the discussion.

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

1 hour ago, White Ravens said:

RR and Therae already worked this out without your help so why get involved now? 

Yup. That's why I wrote the ETA at the bottom of my post. I hadn't noticed another page at the time of my writing of it. 

1 hour ago, White Ravens said:

For what it's worth it was RR who was insensitive with their wording

That was why I wanted to say something. I don't think RR was trying to insult or be insensitive. The "four and one" is confusing and I read RR's post as her actually trying to get on the same page as Therae. As in "are we both in agreement on x + y = z?" 

1 hour ago, White Ravens said:

It was offensive because it suggests that Therae is not smart enough to understand a very basic math concept when the misunderstanding actually stemmed from GRRM's words being interpreted differently by the two posters involved in the discussion.

But I don't think RR was trying to suggest this. Which was why I said something. But there is no issue here to worry about (other than trying to figure out the wording, lol).

I should have clicked on the next page of posts before typing mine own, and for that I apologize. 

[White Ravens]

3 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Yup. That's why I wrote the ETA at the bottom of my post. I hadn't noticed another page at the time of my writing of it. 

 

3 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Apologies for the double quote.

 

Sorry.  I didn't see your ETA when I quoted you.  Every one is trying to get along.  

[ravenous reader]

2 hours ago, White Ravens said:

It was offensive because it suggests that Therae is not smart enough to understand a very basic math concept

No, actually I was trying to clarify a tricky issue using simple terms.  Specifically, I was making the point that GRRM's word 'and' translated into the arithmetical function 'plus', according to my interpretation.  How you interpret that 'and' in conjunction with the preceding elllipsis (...) is actually crucial to how one ends up doing the math.  You are the one who should be holding back your own projections, instead of inserting yourself into the equation -- the 'math' is actually complicated enough as it is; certainly more complicated than you're making it out to be!  Additionally, since you're so concerned with civility, please refrain in future from addressing me indirectly in the third person (that's rude, not to mention underhanded) -- unless it's to credit one of my theories or ideas.

I trust @OtherFromAnotherMother in this matter, since I've conversed with him before on many other occasions when we were getting into the nitty-gritty of some highly complicated and very heated issues, such as who was behind Bran's assassination attempt and the meaning of Bran's coma dream.  He's familiar with my writing style -- and I value his opinion.  

2 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

I just wanted to throw in that @ravenous reader reader was being sincere in his math questions and formulations. The four and one business can be different for certain people. Personally, I see it as a total of five but can understand if some people see it differently. 

Anyways, I just wanted to say that the math stuff by RR was sincere and she was not meaning offense. 

Thanks for the vote of confidence.  Indeed -- I did not mean to cause offense and apologized for the misunderstanding.  

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Would we want it any other way?

With GRRM's damn ellipses...it's very frustrating.   Sometimes those ellipses mean that no-one other than Joffrey could've been behind Bran's assassination attempt; and sometimes, as in this case, even the maths doesn't add up! 

13 hours ago, Therae said:

My inclination for the four less one version is because Ghost is aware of what Shaggy and Nymeria are up to at that time:

Far off, he could hear his packmates calling to him, like to like. They were hunting too. A wild rain lashed down upon his black brother as he tore at the flesh of an enormous goat, washing the blood from his side where the goat's long horn had raked him. In another place, his little sister lifted her head to sing to the moon, and a hundred small grey cousins broke off their hunt to sing with her. The hills were warmer where they were, and full of food. Many a night his sister's pack gorged on the flesh of sheep and cows and horses, the prey of men, and sometimes even on the flesh of man himself.

That is a valid explanation for the discrepancy.  So somehow Ghost knows -- without being able to sense him (very mysterious) -- that Summer is alive, although he's unable to see what he's doing.  Perhaps that's because Summer and Bran are in the 'cave of skulls' (Bloodraven's cavern) which is warded, or alternatively because Summer's north of the Wall vs. the other wolves who are all south of the Wall, which also presents a magical ward.

This raises the question where exactly Bran and Summer were located at the time of Jon's 'weirwood sapling dream'.  Surely, they (Ghost/Jon and Summer/Bran) would have had to be able to sense one another in order to make that dream connection?  Therefore, this implies that the wolves were on the same side of the Wall as each other (i.e. north, since Jon was in the Skirling pass at the time with Ghost); and that despite the ward on the cave, Summer can get around this obstacle because he occasionally hunts outside the cave, accompanied by Bran via skinchanging him.  Assuming the Wall presents a barrier to inter-wolf connection, Bran couldn't have made the connection to Ghost from the Winterfell crypt -- despite saying he talked to Jon and touched Ghost from there.  This means that there's some 'time high jinks' going on and that Bran 'sent' that dream from a future or timeless dimension.

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Then he recalls that there are fewer of them than there were:

 Once they had been six, five whimpering blind in the snow beside their dead mother, sucking cool milk from her hard dead nipples whilst he crawled off alone. Four remained … and one the white wolf could no longer sense.

And then, it seemed to me, that he was figuring out where the last of the four was by process of elimination:

On the other side the wind was colder still, the wolf sensed. That was where his brother was, the grey brother who smelled of summer.

That's very plausible.  I agree with you and @Clegane'sPup that Ghost was likely south of the Wall.  Racing towards the 'cave of night' implies he's heading north for the gate into Castle Black.  On a deeper symbolic level, the 'cave of night' refers to Bloodraven's cave (remember no sunlight or moonlight enters there, and it contains an underground 'sunless sea').  The 'sun' in question hiding out in this 'sunless sea' is Bran himself.  From the wolf's perspective, the 'sun has hidden' because he can't see and/or sense Summer.  Bran's the Summer child with Summer wolf hibernating underground.  That's equivalent to the sun or Winterfell's son hiding in a cave of night.

[Clegane'sPup]

On 3/10/2017 at 7:25 AM, Quellon said:

By now, I think it is clear Ghost is no ordinary direwolf. He's white, he doesn't make the sounds other direwolves make and that excerpt where Jon remarks how he looks like those weirwood faces...this is all meant to allude that Ghost is something supernatural. Or, spawned by something supernatural. So...what may he be really? Or who?

Weeel okee dokee now, that everything is cleared up and Kumbaya is playing in the background maybe the discussion could return to the original post.

Then again, it's always fun to have a bit of Jambalaya thrown in

 

[ravenous reader]

1 minute ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Weeel okee dokee now, that everything is cleared up and Kumbaya is playing in the background maybe the discussion could return to the original post.

Then again, it's always fun to have a bit of Jambalaya thrown in

 

'Kumbaya'?  This is 'The Poetess of the Nennymoans' you're dealing with!

[Therae]

51 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

 

With GRRM's damn ellipses...it's very frustrating.   Sometimes those ellipses mean that no-one other than Joffrey could've been behind Bran's assassination attempt; and sometimes, as in this case, even the maths doesn't add up!

Right? GRRM: the original unreliable narrator.

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Perhaps that's because Summer and Bran are in the 'cave of skulls' (Bloodraven's cavern) which is warded, or alternatively because Summer's north of the Wall vs. the other wolves who are all south of the Wall, which also presents a magical ward

Maybe even a bit of both?

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This raises the question where exactly Bran and Summer were located at the time of Jon's 'weirwood sapling dream'.  Surely, they (Ghost/Jon and Summer/Bran) would have had to be able to sense one another in order to make that dream connection?  Therefore, this implies that the wolves were on the same side of the Wall as each other (i.e. north, since Jon was in the Skirling pass at the time with Ghost); and that despite the ward on the cave, Summer can get around this obstacle because he occasionally hunts outside the cave, accompanied by Bran via skinchanging him. Assuming the Wall presents a barrier to inter-wolf connection, Bran couldn't have made the connection to Ghost from the Winterfell crypt -- despite saying he talked to Jon and touched Ghost from there.  This means that there's some 'time high jinks' going on and that Bran 'sent' that dream from a future or timeless dimension.

Here in the chill damp darkness of the tomb his third eye had finally opened. He could reach Summer whenever he wanted, and once he had even touched Ghost and talked to Jon. Though maybe he had only dreamed that. (CoK, Bran VII)

I think this must have been the sapling dream.

There could be a couple of explanations (well, there could be more than a couple, but this is what I've got). One would be the time hijinx (just as a side note: the direwolves appear to have more or less the same relationship with time as humans, however--in the wolf dream in DwD, Jon I, Ghost has a pretty clear understanding of past and present). And that would almost have to mean future tree Bran was reaching for both Jon/Ghost and Bran-in-the-crypt, which is sort of making my brain hurt. Another, and I think this is more likely, is that there may have been some intervention from Bloodraven to make this conversation happen, because while magical wards may impede direct communication between the direwolves, once you throw weirwood into the mix, all bets (and wards) are off.

The weirwood had his brother's face. Had his brother always had three eyes?

Not always, came the silent shout. Not before the crow.  (CoK, Jon VII)

That doesn't prove it, of course, but at least it's a namedrop; the incident is not completely innocent of 3EC reference, so it might not be completely innocent of 3EC his own self. It's an embarassingly complicated explanation, but I think that this was a conference call facilitated by BR rather than person-to-person (or wolf-to-wolf).

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Racing towards the 'cave of night' implies he's heading north for the gate into Castle Black.  On a deeper symbolic level, the 'cave of night' refers to Bloodraven's cave (remember no sunlight or moonlight enters there, and it contains an underground 'sunless sea').  The 'sun' in question hiding out in this 'sunless sea' is Bran himself.  From the wolf's perspective, the 'sun has hidden' because he can't see and/or sense Summer.  Bran's the Summer child with Summer wolf hibernating underground.  That's equivalent to the sun or Winterfell's son hiding in a cave of night

I like this!

Do you know, I wonder if Bran went through the Black Gate before Ghost returned to Castle Black? If they did, it would be another even better reason for Ghost to know that Summer was on the other side of the wall by DwD.

@OtherFromAnotherMother @White Ravens @Clegane'sPup @ravenous reader

 

And RR, my apologies as well.

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

5 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

With GRRM's damn ellipses...it's very frustrating.   Sometimes those ellipses mean that no-one other than Joffrey could've been behind Bran's assassination attempt; and sometimes, as in this case, even the maths doesn't add up! 

About those ellipses... I've done a little research and think I have found our answer. 

Accordingto grammarbook.com there are two rules when using ellipses. 

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Rule 1. Many writers use an ellipsis whether the omission occurs at the beginning of a sentence, in the middle of a sentence, or between sentences.

A common way to delete the beginning of a sentence is to follow the opening quotation mark with an ellipsis, plus a bracketed capital letter:

Example: "… [A]fter hours of careful thought, we vetoed the bill."

Other writers omit the ellipsis in such cases, feeling the bracketed capital letter gets the point across.

And

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Rule 2. Ellipses can express hesitation, changes of mood, suspense, or thoughts trailing off. Writers also use ellipses to indicate a pause or wavering in an otherwise straightforward sentence.

Examples:
I don't know … I'm not sure.
Pride is one thing, but what happens if she …?
He said, "I … really don't … understand this."

Let's look again at the ellipses in question.

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"Snow," the moon called down again, cackling. The white wolf padded along the man trail beneath the icy cliff. The taste of blood was on his tongue, and his ears rang to the song of the hundred cousins. Once they had been six, five whimpering blind in the snow beside their dead mother, sucking cool milk from her hard dead nipples whilst he crawled off alone. Four remained … and one the white wolf could no longer sense.

It seems to me that in this case George is using the second rule. The first rule would mean that he is omitting something. I don't think that is the case so let's go with the second rule. 

This would indicate that George is expressing one or more of the following: hesitation, change of mood, suspense, and/or thoughts trailing off. 

I think we can eliminate thoughts trailing off because the ellipses would be used at the end of the sentence if this were the case. I don't really see any reason why there would be a hesitation here. Ghost already knows that he cannot sense one of the direwolves so why would he hesitate. I believe the reason for the ellipses is to express a change of mood and suspense. I can certainly see why there would be a change of mood here. Ghost is confident in four wolves but... uncertain because of not being able to sense the last one. 

So how does this help us in our math equation? I believe it means that the ellipses have nothing to do with the math in the phrasing. We can look at the sentence and not be worried about what the ... does to our understanding of the number of direwolves. 

George is using the ... as a change of mood and we can be confident that because he says 'and one' it means 'in addition to'. 'And' is being used to differentiate between the 4 direwolves Ghost can sense and the 1 he cannot. 

 

[ravenous reader]

2 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

George is using the ... as a change of mood and we can be confident that because he says 'and one' it means 'in addition to'. 'And' is being used to differentiate between the 4 direwolves Ghost can sense and the 1 he cannot. 

Who is that one then?

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

8 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Who is that one then?

I don't know. I think I just changed my mind after reading the passage again. Now I think George is making his own rules and the 'and' isn't being used as 'in addition to'. I'm more confused now than I was when I started looking up the rules on ellipses. 

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

@ravenous reader Could the one he can no longer sense be Lady?

There are only 4 living, breathing direwolves left, but he can sense Lady because Sansa is alive. Hmm... maybe.

[Therae]

1 minute ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

I don't know. I think I just changed my mind after reading the passage again. Now I think George is making his own rules and the 'and' isn't being used as 'in addition to'. I'm more confused now than I was when I started looking up the rules on ellipses. 

He could also just be using it to illustrate a brief pause which emphasizes the last bit so that we'll all wonder just what he meant by it.

Like: "four remained [beat, beat, beat] and one he could not sense."

He might have used a comma or a dash instead. I am pretty sure I have seem him use ellipses in places I would have expected a dash, this one included (please don't ask for examples, please, please!).

In any case, I think the meaning (plus vs out of the four) can really go either way. Maybe in Winds he'll have Ghost think about Lady (and probably still not clarify it).  

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

4 minutes ago, Therae said:

He could also just be using it to illustrate a brief pause which emphasizes the last bit so that we'll all wonder just what he meant by it.

Like: "four remained [beat, beat, beat] and one he could not sense."

You're right! That would also mean he is still following the second rule and is expressing hesitation.

I should not have been thinking through Ghost's lens, but rather George's lens.

7 minutes ago, Therae said:

In any case, I think the meaning (plus vs out of the four) can really go either way. Maybe in Winds he'll have Ghost think about Lady (and probably still not clarify it).

I honestly have no idea. I always thought it was Summer he could not sense but never really stopped to count out how many direwolves are in the equation. The more I read it, the more I think he is saying 4, but he can't sense 1 out of the 4.

But then I think, "if that were the case, why wouldn't George just write it like that?"

Gr... banging head against wall emoji.

[ravenous reader]

3 hours ago, Therae said:

And RR, my apologies as well.

It's all good.  I'm glad you told me how you felt, and that I could respond.  

 

27 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

@ravenous reader Could the one he can no longer sense be Lady?

There are only 4 living, breathing direwolves left, but he can sense Lady because Sansa is alive. Hmm... maybe.

I like that idea.

 

34 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

I don't know. I think I just changed my mind after reading the passage again. Now I think George is making his own rules and the 'and' isn't being used as 'in addition to'. I'm more confused now than I was when I started looking up the rules on ellipses. 

Once you start questioning him, you realise he's not all that reliable!

I think GRRM wrote it that way quite deliberately and consciously, because I remember it jarring (in terms of the math) when I first read it.  

 

10 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

why wouldn't George just write it like that?"

Because he -- like Donald Trump -- understands the merit of keeping the audience 'in suspense'!

He makes his living out of being equivocal.

[Therae]

2 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

But then I think, "if that were the case, why wouldn't George just write it like that?"

Gr... banging head against wall emoji.

It's almost like he knew we'd need to keep ourselves busy for a while...

I mean, I really, really don't believe that every single thing in this story is supposed to be mystery, but... <--ha! see what I did there?

Back to Ghost, whether it's four or five, this wolf dream got me wondering about direwolf.net. Do we see Summer (or any of the other direwolves) being aware of all the other wolves? Is it just Ghost who can sense them all? Can they sense him? Bran at least "touches" Ghost, but he doesn't necessarily involve Summer in that.

[ravenous reader]

12 minutes ago, Therae said:

It's almost like he knew we'd need to keep ourselves busy for a while...

I mean, I really, really don't believe that every single thing in this story is supposed to be mystery, but... <--ha! see what I did there?

Back to Ghost, whether it's four or five, this wolf dream got me wondering about direwolf.net. Do we see Summer (or any of the other direwolves) being aware of all the other wolves? Is it just Ghost who can sense them all? Can they sense him? Bran at least "touches" Ghost, but he doesn't necessarily involve Summer in that.

There's this passage in which Summer likewise 'checks in' with his siblings, which is very similar to Ghost's thoughts:

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A Storm of Swords - Bran I

Far below, at the base of the woods, something moved amongst the trees. A flash of grey, quick-glimpsed and gone again, but it was enough to make his ears prick up. Down there beside a swift green brook, another form slipped by, running. Wolves, he knew. His little cousins, chasing down some prey. Now the prince could see more of them, shadows on fleet grey paws. A pack.

He had a pack as well, once. Five they had been, and a sixth who stood aside. Somewhere down inside him were the sounds the men had given them to tell one from the other, but it was not by their sounds he knew them. He remembered their scents, his brothers and his sisters. They all had smelled alike, had smelled of pack, but each was different too.

His angry brother with the hot green eyes was near, the prince felt, though he had not seen him for many hunts. Yet with every sun that set he grew more distant, and he had been the last. The others were far scattered, like leaves blown by the wild wind.

Sometimes he could sense them, though, as if they were still with him, only hidden from his sight by a boulder or a stand of trees. He could not smell them, nor hear their howls by night, yet he felt their presence at his back . . . all but the sister they had lost. His tail drooped when he remembered her. Four now, not five. Four and one more, the white who has no voice.

These woods belonged to them, the snowy slopes and stony hills, the great green pines and the golden leaf oaks, the rushing streams and blue lakes fringed with fingers of white frost. But his sister had left the wilds, to walk in the halls of man-rock where other hunters ruled, and once within those halls it was hard to find the path back out. The wolf prince remembered.

The wind shifted suddenly.

 

[Therae]

Thank you, @ravenous reader! I had a feeling there was something from Summer, but couldn't remember enough to know what to search for.

I see that Summer is a lot more specific with his headcount (four and one more).

I do adore the direwolves.