LynnS Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 4 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said: I am not joking but I really don't know how to discuss at Heresy. Maybe a simple thread here is better and more people will be able to read it since not everyone read the Heresy threads. I've started this discussion now if you want to join? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Therae Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 12 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said: Ghost knows Grey Wind is dead, but doesn’t seem to know Lady is buried at WF. I took "...four remained...and one he could no longer sense..." to mean he knew that both Grey Wind and Lady were dead, and while he could sense Shaggy and Nymeria, he could not sense Summer...and "...that was where his brother was..." was Ghost basically realizing he could not sense Summer, because Summer was on the other side of the Wall. (I think Ghost is basically the greenseer of the direwolves.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 6 minutes ago, LynnS said: I've started this discussion now if you want to join? You are very kind thank you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zandru Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 5 hours ago, Quellon said: I didn't write that. Sorry! I think I was excerpting a quote within a post and didn't double check to get the right name! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clegane'sPup Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 9 minutes ago, Therae said: I took "...four remained...and one he could no longer sense..." to mean he knew that both Grey Wind and Lady were dead, and while he could sense Shaggy and Nymeria, he could not sense Summer...and "...that was where his brother was..." was Ghost basically realizing he could not sense Summer, because Summer was on the other side of the Wall. (I think Ghost is basically the greenseer of the direwolves.) You could very well be correct. There are quite a few posters who think Summer is the one who can't be sensed. The white wolf ran from it, racing toward the cave of night where the sun had hidden, his breath frosting in the air. At the time the above is happening Jon & Ghost are on the south side of the Wall. On starless nights the great cliff was as black as stone, a darkness towering high above the wide world, but when the moon came out it shimmered pale and icy as a frozen stream. The above is a description of wolf speak for Wall. The wolf's pelt was thick and shaggy, but when the wind blew along the ice no fur could keep the chill out. On the other side the wind was colder still, the wolf sensed. That was where his brother was, the grey brother who smelled of summer. Ghost and Jon are on the south side of the Wall, yet on the other side it was colder and that is where his grey brother who smelled of summer is. My take is Ghost on the south side of the Wall sensed Summer who is on the north side of the Wall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Therae Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 @Clegane'sPup - I think we fundamentally agree; I just got the impression that Ghost knows Summer is north of the Wall because he cannot sense him (and is apparently able to distinguish unable to sense from dead), rather than sensing him north of the Wall. I think for Ghost "grey brother who smelled of summer" is his name for Summer, rather than an indication that he is able to smell summer on him at that moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravenous reader Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 16 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said: Oh RR... I only called the ghosts albinos because ghosts are often associated as being white and wanted to sort of remain on topic by calling them albino... I know they are not actually albino. They are kingly ghosts from the Great Empire with eyes of many colors. Thanks for keeping me on my toes. Ha ha -- we seem to be back with me taking things literally which you intend me taking figuratively, and vice versa. You are right -- albinos, be they human, lemur, dragon, wolf or tree, etc., tend to remind people of ghosts due to their snowy-white color. 45 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said: The Wall, back in SoS kept Jon from sensing Ghost, the Wall in DwD did not stop Ghost from sensing Summer. Curious it is. Hi Pup! You are asking all the right questions As @LynnS has previously speculated, the Wall represents a magical ward which prevents the warg from sensing his wolf, should they find themselves on opposite sides of the barrier. However, the wolves operate on another dimension, and can sense each other, facilitating the link-up for the humans. We're not quite sure what GRRM is trying to imply by this, but he has confirmed in interviews it is a deliberate plot device (which he's coyly deferred to explain, naturally). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravenous reader Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 6 minutes ago, Therae said: Ghost knows Summer is north of the Wall because he cannot sense him Can you provide the quote, please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Therae Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 1 minute ago, ravenous reader said: Can you provide the quote, please. It's the same set of quotes that Clegane's Pup provided two or three posts upthread. I just read it with a different emphasis based on it following "four remained, and one he could not sense." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 1 hour ago, LynnS said: I've started this discussion now if you want to join? I feel silly but I cannot find it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnS Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 23 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said: I feel silly but I cannot find it. Here you go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snow is the man Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 19 hours ago, DutchArya said: Despite the fact there is really nothing in the text that can support your assertion here. Nymeria is also a leader and a dominant female, that unites wolf packs into a huge group with her at the head. What do you mean her pack protected her "to a point"? The pack always seemed to be around arya when it is her POV. But she never stopped people like the mountain from taking her Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quellon Posted March 11, 2017 Author Share Posted March 11, 2017 2 hours ago, zandru said: Sorry! I think I was excerpting a quote within a post and didn't double check to get the right name! No sweat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a black swan Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 20 minutes ago, snow is the man said: The pack always seemed to be around arya when it is her POV. But she never stopped people like the mountain from taking her Was that before or after her prayer in the Harrenhal godswood where she asks to become a wolf? She low level wargs Nymeria at the gates and then starts having her wolf dreams after her escape. Also, how do you know what kind of situation Nym was in when Arya was captured and taken to Harrenhal? Sidenote: Are you going to bother explaining your other comments I replied to? It would be interesting to know why you think all of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weirwood Ghost Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 Father - Ghost Mother - Maiden - Lady Warrior - Grey Wind Smith - Shaggydog Crone - Summer Stranger - Nymeria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luddagain Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 Weirwood You are mixing up contexts. The direwolves have NOTHING to do with the 7 which are constructs of a later age/religion. The direwolves belong to the earlier animistic forms of worship. in any case how could link Bran to a crone and Shaggy to a smith or Jon to a father. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravenous reader Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 On 3/11/2017 at 2:23 PM, Clegane'sPup said: Once they had been six, five whimpering blind in the snow beside their dead mother, sucking cool milk from her hard dead nipples whilst he crawled off alone. Four remained … and one the white wolf could no longer sense. On 3/11/2017 at 3:16 PM, Therae said: It's the same set of quotes that Clegane's Pup provided two or three posts upthread. I just read it with a different emphasis based on it following "four remained, and one he could not sense." 'Four' and 'one'...4 plus 1 = five. Are you in agreement with the math? So who are the five? On 3/11/2017 at 2:34 PM, Therae said: I took "...four remained...and one he could no longer sense..." to mean he knew that both Grey Wind and Lady were dead, So, originally there were 6 wolves. Now, 4 remained, because Grey Wind and Lady are dead, right? So why does GRRM specify 'four plus one'? Quote and while he could sense Shaggy and Nymeria, he could not sense Summer...and "...that was where his brother was..." was Ghost basically realizing he could not sense Summer, because Summer was on the other side of the Wall. (I think Ghost is basically the greenseer of the direwolves.) So if you're in agreement with my math, above, then this doesn't add up. Let me explain: If Ghost knows that Grey Wind and Lady are dead, that leaves 4 wolves including Ghost, not 5, as the text indicates. What is going on? 6 direwolves for 6 children 5 blind Starks plus one 'eyes-wide-open' Snow=6 4 remained is ambiguous... I've interpreted that to refer to the previous sentence, 'once they had been 6...' leading into the next sentence '[Of the 6] 4 remained'. That means 2 wolves are dead, leaving 4: So 4 = Shaggy, Nymeria, Summer and himself (Ghost) The 'plus 1' he couldn't sense = Lady. Part of Lady is alive in Sansa. When a warg dies, part of him/her remains within the wolf; reciprocally, when a wolf dies part of her/him remains within the warg. So, part of Lady is alive in Sansa -- although Ghost can't reach her, because the Wall prevents wolf from reaching warg without the mediating influence of that warg's wolf. Somehow he knows she's alive in some form, although he can't reach her. Grey Wind and Robb are not included because they're both dead. Sad -- but no part of them remains (because Robb was an idiot who shunned and then incarcerated his wolf in pursuit of some misguided vain dream, and allowed both of them to be slaughtered. Extinguished utterly). On 3/11/2017 at 2:57 PM, Clegane'sPup said: The white wolf ran from it, racing toward the cave of night where the sun had hidden, his breath frosting in the air. At the time the above is happening Jon & Ghost are on the south side of the Wall. Are you sure Ghost is south of the Wall here? Where is the 'wood/forest' located? I didn't know there was a wood south of the Wall. I thought Ghost would've hunted in the haunted forest north of the Wall? Quote A Dance with Dragons - Jon I "Snow." An icicle tumbled from a branch. The white wolf turned and bared his teeth. "Snow! " His fur rose bristling, as the woods The white wolf raced through a black wood, beneath a pale cliff as tall as the sky. The moon ran with him, slipping through a tangle of bare branches overhead, across the starry sky. "Snow," the moon murmured. The wolf made no answer. Snow crunched beneath his paws. The wind sighed through the trees. Far off, he could hear his packmates calling to him, like to like. They were hunting too. A wild rain lashed down upon his black brother as he tore at the flesh of an enormous goat, washing the blood from his side where the goat's long horn had raked him. In another place, his little sister lifted her head to sing to the moon, and a hundred small grey cousins broke off their hunt to sing with her. The hills were warmer where they were, and full of food. Many a night his sister's pack gorged on the flesh of sheep and cows and horses, the prey of men, and sometimes even on the flesh of man himself. "Snow," the moon called down again, cackling. The white wolf padded along the man trail beneath the icy cliff. The taste of blood was on his tongue, and his ears rang to the song of the hundred cousins. Once they had been six, five whimpering blind in the snow beside their dead mother, sucking cool milk from her hard dead nipples whilst he crawled off alone. Four remained ... and one the white wolf could no longer sense. "Snow," the moon insisted. The white wolf ran from it, racing toward the cave of night where the sun had hidden, his breath frosting in the air. On starless nights the great cliff was as black as stone, a darkness towering high above the wide world, but when the moon came out it shimmered pale and icy as a frozen stream. The wolf's pelt was thick and shaggy, but when the wind blew along the ice no fur could keep the chill out. On the other side the wind was colder still, the wolf sensed. That was where his brother was, the grey brother who smelled of summer. In order to ascertain the meaning of 'on the other side,' we obviously have to figure out if Ghost is north or south of the Wall. What do you think? Also, how do you interpret 'the cave of night where the sun had hidden'? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Therae Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 @ravenous reader My reading was "four remained...and [of those four,] one he could not sense" as opposed to "four remained...[plus] one." I can't defend it any further than that English usage permits both and my impression is the former, that Ghost is aware both Grey Wind and Lady are dead. The math business was a bit undeserved. I have not been snarky, intransigent, or unfriendly, much less implied anyone was stupid, and the passages in question had already been established. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fresh PtwP Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 I feel Ghost teleporting is relevant to this thread...but don't know how to tie it in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravenous reader Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 4 minutes ago, Therae said: @ravenous reader My reading was "four remained...and [of those four,] one he could not sense" as opposed to "four remained...[plus] one." I can't defend it any further than that English usage permits both and my impression is the former, that Ghost is aware both Grey Wind and Lady are dead. The math business was a bit undeserved. I have not been snarky, intransigent, or unfriendly, much less implied anyone was stupid, and the passages in question had already been established. Hi Therae. I wasn't intending to come across as 'snarky'. I am honestly perplexed! Surely, GRRM should've said 'four remained, but one he couldn't sense'... The use of 'and' seems to indicate something extra, a plus. Maybe GRRM is being deliberately obtuse in order to confuse us... By the way, which side of the Wall do you think Ghost is at, considering the mention of the 'dark wood'? I am genuinely interested -- I have no answers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.