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NFL Offseason: Trail of Tears or My Cousin Kirky


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6 hours ago, Pony Queen Jace said:

As the Trojans begin to get routed by Baylor I would like to go on the record as saying that Derek Barnett is the best player in this draft.

It's Myles Garrett and it's not particularly close.

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8 minutes ago, briantw said:

It's Myles Garrett and it's not particularly close.

Remember.  This time of year, some people like to be contrarian to be hip and edgy.  Don't know if Jace is going with that or legitimately likes Barnett at 1 through some combination of lack of exposure to other prospects and extreme fandom, but silly season is in full swing.

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1 hour ago, James Arryn said:

Add 49ers legend Dwight Clark to the NFL ALS fraternity. :(

Is there a more horribly brutal degenerative disease? I don't really think so. Sad news.

14 minutes ago, briantw said:

It's Myles Garrett and it's not particularly close.

 

4 minutes ago, JonSnow4President said:

Remember.  This time of year, some people like to be contrarian to be hip and edgy.  Don't know if Jace is going with that or legitimately likes Barnett at 1 through some combination of lack of exposure to other prospects and extreme fandom, but silly season is in full swing.

Oh no, I don't think he should go #1. If he were to go #1 he'd be out of the league in 3 years. But I think he is the best football player because of his beautiful ability to use his hands and flexibility to shake blockers combined with a brilliant first step. With good coaching I think he will be the highest rated player from this draft in five years.

The good coaching bit is the catch though. Still, I mean it when I say that the young man will be a terror off the edge with a functional team.

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10 minutes ago, JonSnow4President said:

Remember.  This time of year, some people like to be contrarian to be hip and edgy.  Don't know if Jace is going with that or legitimately likes Barnett at 1 through some combination of lack of exposure to other prospects and extreme fandom, but silly season is in full swing.

Regardless, Garrett is the best defensive prospect in ages, and easily the best in the draft class given the lack of franchise-caliber QBs.  I've already committed to renouncing my Browns fandom if they don't draft him barring something happening to him prior to the draft.

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1 minute ago, Pony Queen Jace said:

Is there a more horribly brutal degenerative disease? I don't really think so. Sad news.

 

Oh no, I don't think he should go #1. If he were to go #1 he'd be out of the league in 3 years. But I think he is the best football player because of his beautiful ability to use his hands and flexibility to shake blockers combined with a brilliant first step. With good coaching I think he will be the highest rated player from this draft in five years.

The good coaching bit is the catch though. Still, I mean it when I say that the young man will be a terror off the edge with a functional team.

Every scouting report I've read (and my own eyes) say that his first step is meh and he often gets caught counting the snap to compensate.  He lacks length and quick feet, and isn't great at winning if he doesn't win early on with his hands, which will happen less often in the NFL.  

If you put all the players in this draft in a vacuum, I don't see how you think he's best to develop.  If you give them all to Belichick, Garrett, Charlton, Thomas, and Allen are all better linemen, and Harris is probably tied with him. Putting them in a bad coaching environment is the only way I see Barnett being better.  I think he has more technique down, although I still don't think he can beat Garrett's current technique + athleticism.  

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9 minutes ago, JonSnow4President said:

If you put all the players in this draft in a vacuum, I don't see how you think he's best to develop.  If you give them all to Belichick, Garrett, Charlton, Thomas, and Allen are all better linemen, and Harris is probably tied with him. Putting them in a bad coaching environment is the only way I see Barnett being better.  I think he has more technique down, although I still don't think he can beat Garrett's current technique + athleticism.  

I honestly thought Allen was somewhat close to Garrett as a prospect, but the news of the arthritis in his shoulders definitely makes Garrett the easy number one choice in this draft.  That was also before factoring in how Garrett looked like an absolute freak of nature at the Combine, though.  

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5 minutes ago, James Arryn said:

If the 9ers stay at 2, I'm warming up to the idea of Hooker. Special ball skills.

Like him a lot.  Just not at one.  Two, though, he's definitely in the conversation now that Allen is likely dropping a few spots.

As far as Allen goes, if somehow he fell to twelve I'd take him all day, every day.  Doubt he falls that far, though. 

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10 hours ago, JonSnow4President said:

Every scouting report I've read (and my own eyes) say that his first step is meh and he often gets caught counting the snap to compensate.  He lacks length and quick feet, and isn't great at winning if he doesn't win early on with his hands, which will happen less often in the NFL.  

If you put all the players in this draft in a vacuum, I don't see how you think he's best to develop.  If you give them all to Belichick, Garrett, Charlton, Thomas, and Allen are all better linemen, and Harris is probably tied with him. Putting them in a bad coaching environment is the only way I see Barnett being better.  I think he has more technique down, although I still don't think he can beat Garrett's current technique + athleticism.  

 

10 hours ago, briantw said:

I honestly thought Allen was somewhat close to Garrett as a prospect, but the news of the arthritis in his shoulders definitely makes Garrett the easy number one choice in this draft.  That was also before factoring in how Garrett looked like an absolute freak of nature at the Combine, though.  

To me the most useful thing an edge setter/rusher can have is surgical hands and the ability to sink his hips while contorting his body at the waist. He's already got those abilities coming out of college, thinks like strength and not jumping the snap can come in the next few years. I hesitate for once to be too mean, but I haven't watched a single frame of Garrett and paid attention to the kid. He's going to Cleveland, so I am honestly not concerned on any level with how great a player he may have been before he was drafted.

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19 minutes ago, Pony Queen Jace said:

 

To me the most useful thing an edge setter/rusher can have is surgical hands and the ability to sink his hips while contorting his body at the waist. He's already got those abilities coming out of college, thinks like strength and not jumping the snap can come in the next few years. I hesitate for once to be too mean, but I haven't watched a single frame of Garrett and paid attention to the kid. He's going to Cleveland, so I am honestly not concerned on any level with how great a player he may have been before he was drafted.

I look at it the other way.  Professional coaches can teach hand usage.  I'm more concerned about the athleticism that the coaches can channel and a demonstrated work ethic/desire to improve.  Garrett upped his game year to year, even if it didn't necessarily result in higher sack numbers.  For f***'s sake, the guy demands double and triple teams from Alabama caliber O-lineman despite playing on a leg bad enough for him to miss multiple games on BOTH sides of the 'Bama game.  

I've also never seen a guy as immune to getting holding calls.  I've seen him be dragged down horse collar style so hard his feet flew out in front of him and no call.  I've seen him giving piggyback rides. I've seen guys literally just reach around him and pull him to the ground.  A&M has had some pretty good college pass rushers since I've started watching football.  Von Miller never got as many missed calls.  Damontre Moore never did.  Other teams had to cheat to be able to contain him with multiple players at a rate I've never seen. 

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1 hour ago, JonSnow4President said:

I look at it the other way.  Professional coaches can teach hand usage.  I'm more concerned about the athleticism that the coaches can channel and a demonstrated work ethic/desire to improve.  Garrett upped his game year to year, even if it didn't necessarily result in higher sack numbers.  For f***'s sake, the guy demands double and triple teams from Alabama caliber O-lineman despite playing on a leg bad enough for him to miss multiple games on BOTH sides of the 'Bama game.  

I've also never seen a guy as immune to getting holding calls.  I've seen him be dragged down horse collar style so hard his feet flew out in front of him and no call.  I've seen him giving piggyback rides. I've seen guys literally just reach around him and pull him to the ground.  A&M has had some pretty good college pass rushers since I've started watching football.  Von Miller never got as many missed calls.  Damontre Moore never did.  Other teams had to cheat to be able to contain him with multiple players at a rate I've never seen. 

That all sounds like high praise. But like I said, he's going to Cleveland. 

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1 minute ago, Pony Queen Jace said:

That all sounds like high praise. But like I said, he's going to Cleveland. 

Cleveland may actually end up with a formidable defense this year.  They hired Gregg Williams as their coordinator, locked down Collins to a long-term deal, and saw solid years from Ogbah and Shelton last season (Nassib too before he got hurt...he wasn't quite the same after his injury).  They'll be adding the best defensive prospect in years, and have several other high picks that will probably largely be used on defensive players.

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2 minutes ago, briantw said:

Cleveland may actually end up with a formidable defense this year.  They hired Gregg Williams as their coordinator, locked down Collins to a long-term deal, and saw solid years from Ogbah and Shelton last season (Nassib too before he got hurt...he wasn't quite the same after his injury).  They'll be adding the best defensive prospect in years, and have several other high picks that will probably largely be used on defensive players.

This year is probably a bridge too far, unless by formidable you mean "not terrible".  But Garrett is going to be in Cleveland for a lot longer than just one year, and with their vast array of draft capital to spend this year and next, there's every reason to think he'll have plenty of talented young guys around him to grow with. 

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3 minutes ago, briantw said:

Cleveland may actually end up with a formidable defense this year.  They hired Gregg Williams as their coordinator, locked down Collins to a long-term deal, and saw solid years from Ogbah and Shelton last season (Nassib too before he got hurt...he wasn't quite the same after his injury).  They'll be adding the best defensive prospect in years, and have several other high picks that will probably largely be used on defensive players.

Like I said two posts ago, I hesitate to be too mean because I don't want to antagonize you as a fan. But it's Cleveland. They 'should have a formidable defense' after going 7-9 three years ago with their good secondary players and bringing in Paul Kruger. But what happened? They Browned it up and then Sashi was brought in to deconstruct. 

I wouldn't be surprised if the defense was in the mid to low 20's this year. But they'll blow up the process again in 10 months and it'll be another commitment to a rebuild. Garrett will wither on the vine, like all talented young men drafted to that city before him.

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1 minute ago, Maithanet said:

This year is probably a bridge too far, unless by formidable you mean "not terrible".  But Garrett is going to be in Cleveland for a lot longer than just one year, and with their vast array of draft capital to spend this year and next, there's every reason to think he'll have plenty of talented young guys around him to grow with. 

Yeah, perhaps this year is expecting too much too soon, but they're definitely putting together the backbone of a formidable squad.

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17 minutes ago, briantw said:

Cleveland may actually end up with a formidable defense this year.  They hired Gregg Williams as their coordinator, locked down Collins to a long-term deal, and saw solid years from Ogbah and Shelton last season (Nassib too before he got hurt...he wasn't quite the same after his injury).  They'll be adding the best defensive prospect in years, and have several other high picks that will probably largely be used on defensive players.

I think you guys are probably doing a lot of the right things and I think you have reason to be optimistic long term, but right here you're just sounding the almost every bad team's fan in offseason mode, excepting those still setting tires on fire. Any plan that counts on everything going right is almost always designed to disappoint.

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1 minute ago, James Arryn said:

I think you guys are probably doing a lot of the right things and I think you have reason to be optimistic long term, but right here you're just sounding the almost every bad team's fan in offseason mode, excepting those still setting tires on fire. Any plan that counts on everything going right is almost always designed to disappoint.

Eh...I don't expect the team to go from one win to over .500, but I am encouraged that they may have actually hired people who know what the fuck they're doing.

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