Manhole Eunuchsbane

NFL Offseason: Trail of Tears or My Cousin Kirky

444 posts in this topic

21 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

*begins slow clap*

Seems like suspending him for a pair is reasonable.

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52 minutes ago, lancerman said:

b ) The Patriots trade him for him, maybe he gets the money he wants, but the Patriots get some type of compensation for him and still have Gilmore who is just as good if not better. 

c) nobody wants to deal for him this year with a draft pick over his head. They get Gilmore and him on the cheap, creating arguably the most stacked secondary in the NFL along with Chung and McCourty and they can allocate resources towards signing Hightower or a RB. 

He has no leverage

I think these are the most likely scenario.  Its possible that a team will trade for him but I don't see what they could offer outside of picks.  It seems more likely that he is stuck here because he has no leverage to hold out, because NO MATTER WHAT after 2017, Butler is a UFA and will be paid huge.  Any team that puts Butler to an offer sheet can be matched by the Pats and from what I have read, signing a Restricted Free Agent who has a first round tender is unusual. 

But if a team does send out an offer sheet, the Pats still could match it, but Butler could still be angry.  

I guess for me I would just LOVE to see a Def back field with Butler, Gilmore, McCourty and Chung/Harmon.  

And supposedly Hightower is meeting with the Jets and and Steelers which are basically "Trolling the Pats 101."  I hope they resign Hightower.

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4 hours ago, Week said:

I need whatever is in your coffee. 

Brady as the Professional Athlete-GOAT/NFL-GOAT/QB-GOAT (Goatx3) - love it. This is truly the Rock that Roi'd.

Except we can't definitively say that Brady is the GOAT.

Why do you Pats fans need to overcompensate so much? 

Is the Brady-Belichick-Trump love triangle making you talk and act like the latter?

I demand answers!!!  

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3 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Except we can't definitively say that Brady is the GOAT.

Why do you Pats fans need to overcompensate so much? 

Is the Brady-Belichick-Trump love triangle making you talk and act like the latter?

I demand answers!!!  

Oh, absolutely agree. Just supporting the enthusiasm of Rock - it's just too good*.

The overcompensation roots back to a oversized victim-complex around the Red Sox (with Patriots, Bruins, and Celtics playing supporting roles due to lack of success in 70-2010s for Bs and 90s-2010s for Cs). From a Bostonian perspective, nobody outside of Boston understood the heartbreak** and then nobody fully appreciated the breakthrough of success***, and then impressiveness**** of the continued success.

Now we're in a loop where anything that doesn't resemble worship pushes (some) fans to further overcompensation which leads to more hate (towards team, fans, city, etc.) - and is a self-bouying cycle.

 

*Assuming it's read with a grain of salt the size of the Kaaba in Mecca.

**Because, sports and there is NEVER enough.

***People probably did

***Because, obnoxious and there is NEVER enough.

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2 hours ago, lancerman said:

It doesn't matter really. I doubt he will hold out. He's not good enough to sit a year and have it not impact him in negotiations. 

The reality is that by signing Gilmore the Patriots signed Butler's replacement if he leaves. Their worst case scenario now is they stay as good as they are now. 

With the 1st rnd tender, these are the likely outcomes. 

a) Someone picks him up for the tender, he loses leverage in negotiations over the draft pick and doesn't get what he wants, the Patriots still have Gilmore who is just as good if not better and they gain a 1st rnd draft pick. 

b ) The Patriots trade him for him, maybe he gets the money he wants, but the Patriots get some type of compensation for him and still have Gilmore who is just as good if not better. 

c) nobody wants to deal for him this year with a draft pick over his head. They get Gilmore and him on the cheap, creating arguably the most stacked secondary in the NFL along with Chung and McCourty and they can allocate resources towards signing Hightower or a RB. 

d) the least likely, he holds out, doesn't play for a year, hurts his negotiation stock, and the Pats still have Gilmore and stay pretty much the same and can use that money to sign talent.

He has no leverage.

I read somewhere this morning that if Butler doesn't at least play the last seven games, then they could tag him again next year with the first round tender, IIRC.  So, yeah, the guy has no leverage.  Don't necessarily like seeing it, as he is nearing 30 and has never "cashed in".  But I guess that's business.

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Nobody is really arguing anything.  I'm certainly not upset at the way anyone has responded to the Pats win.  I am honestly just repeating some of the things I have been watching on various sports shows over the last two months (ie: highlight porn).  

I'm not saying that you can "definitively" say Brady is the GOAT, but I am saying that he is probably the GOAT in terms of QB and a really, really strong case can be made that he is the greatest football player ever, not just QB.  And, yes, some have even stated that he has surpassed Gretzky and/or Jordan as the greatest pro athlete.  Now, for any of those I can have the discussion, but if you do not believe that Brady is any of those things, that's fine; I begrudge nobody their well-reasoned opinions.  

At the same time, if I advance my position that does not mean I am suffering from some sort need to "overcompensate" or "victim complex."  In fact, I was saying the opposite - that because of how satisfied I am over the Pats success over the last 15 years I am really not even remotely bothered anymore by Ballghazi or Spygate or anything like that (except when ESPN splashes it on their scroll or Bill Polian regurgitates the lie that the Pats had been caught recording opposing teams' practices, which leads ESPN to issue an apology... at 3AM...).  Really, I was just saying how happy I was.  

Now, if expressing happiness is so triggering I can stop.  We should discuss less happy things like, you know, the Jets... 

 

 

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1 minute ago, Rockroi said:

At the same time, if I advance my position that does not mean I am suffering from some sort need to "overcompensate" or "victim complex."  

To be clear, this was a description of personal friends/acquaintances/bros in Somerville/Cambridge/Boston bars that I frequented (prior to moving).

1 minute ago, Rockroi said:

In fact, I was saying the opposite - that because of how satisfied I am over the Pats success over the last 15 years I am really not even remotely bothered anymore by Ballghazi or Spygate or anything like that (except when ESPN splashes it on their scroll or Bill Polian regurgitates the lie that the Pats had been caught recording opposing teams' practices, which leads ESPN to issue an apology... at 3AM...).  Really, I was just saying how happy I was.  

Now, if expressing happiness is so triggering I can stop.  We should discuss less happy things like, you know, the Jets... 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0SqFPNTBnv8

Shine on you crazy diamond!

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42 minutes ago, Week said:

Oh, absolutely agree. Just supporting the enthusiasm of Rock - it's just too good*.

The overcompensation roots back to a oversized victim-complex around the Red Sox (with Patriots, Bruins, and Celtics playing supporting roles due to lack of success in 70-2010s for Bs and 90s-2010s for Cs). From a Bostonian perspective, nobody outside of Boston understood the heartbreak** and then nobody fully appreciated the breakthrough of success***, and then impressiveness**** of the continued success.

Now we're in a loop where anything that doesn't resemble worship pushes (some) fans to further overcompensation which leads to more hate (towards team, fans, city, etc.) - and is a self-bouying cycle.

 

*Assuming it's read with a grain of salt the size of the Kaaba in Mecca.

**Because, sports and there is NEVER enough.

***People probably did

***Because, obnoxious and there is NEVER enough.

This. People have to understand Boston was a major sports city with historic franchises. Then WAY WAY back the Red Sox drought started, the Patriots were cannon fodder for the 85 Bears and the rise of Favre in the 90's. The Celtics promising post Bird future was literally killed along with Len Bias. And the Bruins were long past the Orr age. It's different when you had success and lost it. The 90's were a crap time for Boston sports. It was really the high point of the drought. 

So they are very protective of it. 

That said Brady has probably the best claim on being the GOAT of anybody whoever played the sport. Especially in the Super Bowl era. 

Just to give you perspective. Brady played from 2001-2007, missed 2008 due to injury, then resumed from 2009-2016. That's 15 full years of play. He went to the AFCCG 11 times (01, 03, 04, 06, 07, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16). That means 73% of his playing career he brought his team to no less than the semi final round of his sport and was a top 2 in his conference. 7 of those 15 years he brought the to the Super Bowl. S0 46% of the time (or just under half his career) he won his conference and made the finals. And 5 of that 15 he won the Super Bowl. Easy math 33% of his career he was a world champion. 

In edition he has the records for every bulk playoff and Super Bowl passing stats and it's not particularly close. He also holds the record for most playoff wins at 25, which is 9 more than Montana. He has the most division wins by a starting QB. He is also has the record and is going to blow away the record for all time wins. He also has the record for all time comebacks. 

In regular season stats he's top 5 in completions, yards, and TD's with a real path to number 1 overall by the time he retires. He''s currently top 3 for passer rating with the only guys ahead of him (Rodgers and Wilson) both exclusively playing post the 04 rule changes. He's also top 5 in single season passer rating. Top 2 in single season TD's and won of only two along with Manning to have 50 TD's in a season. He's in a 3 way tie for number 2 of all time in interception percentage (everyone in the top 5 is post rule changes). And if QBR matters to you he has the best single season QBR of all time in 2007. 

It's obviously all subjective in any sport. But in football, Brady is the guy you start the argument from.

 

 

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23 minutes ago, Rockroi said:

At the same time, if I advance my position that does not mean I am suffering from some sort need to "overcompensate" or "victim complex."  In fact, I was saying the opposite - that because of how satisfied I am over the Pats success over the last 15 years I am really not even remotely bothered anymore by Ballghazi or Spygate or anything like that (except when ESPN splashes it on their scroll or Bill Polian regurgitates the lie that the Pats had been caught recording opposing teams' practices, which leads ESPN to issue an apology... at 3AM...).  Really, I was just saying how happy I was.  

Now, if expressing happiness is so triggering I can stop.  We should discuss less happy things like, you know, the Jets... 

 

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1 minute ago, lancerman said:

This. People have to understand Boston was a major sports city with historic franchises. Then WAY WAY back the Red Sox drought started, the Patriots were cannon fodder for the 85 Bears and the rise of Favre in the 90's. The Celtics promising post Bird future was literally killed along with Len Bias. And the Bruins were long past the Orr age. It's different when you had success and lost it. The 90's were a crap time for Boston sports. It was really the high point of the drought. 

So they are very protective of it. 

Consider also the impact of ESPN entering the national stage where sports suddenly became 24/7/365 in a way that they never were before. During this time, Boston sports were AWFUL and, rightly, denigrated - that smarted for a proud (obnoxious) and loyal fanbase.

No excuses, of course, just context. :)

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Posted (edited)

57 minutes ago, Week said:

Consider also the impact of ESPN entering the national stage where sports suddenly became 24/7/365 in a way that they never were before. During this time, Boston sports were AWFUL and, rightly, denigrated - that smarted for a proud (obnoxious) and loyal fanbase.

No excuses, of course, just context. :)

Errr... this point I quibble with a little.  And in a strange way.  ESPN was actually HIGHLY supportive of the Boston Sports teams during their rise in the early to mid 90s.  I read the book "Those Guys Have All the Fun" and in it the producers and personalities at ESPN explain that they -during that time (the time that coincides with Boston sports being awful) - they relied HEAVILY on Boston and New York sports teams for stories, advertising and promotions and that because both the Boston and New York teams were so supportive of ESPN during that time ESPN was, shall we say, friendlier to those teams in their coverage.  At almost all times.  

This is not to say I disagree with you totally.  To some degree I agree.  The "Boston Fan As Victim" was all the rage from around 1986 (the last great year in Boston Sports with the Pats and Red Sox making it to the sports' finals and the Celtics winning it that season) to the Pats explosion in 2001,  the prevailing identity of a Boston Sports fan was that of the victim; the "lovable loser" who we should all pity as somewhere in the background this tune played on a loop.  And when something ALMOST great would happen to a Boston Sports team- 1990, Bruins make it to the Stanley Cup Finals; 1996 Pats make it to the Superbowl - EVERYONE would be there as the city came crashing down so as to say "What did you expect: you're from Boston!"  As if the fact that our geography explained how the Sox were swept in the ALDS by the As two seasons in a row (or thereabouts) or how the Celtics' young talent kept dying (Len Bias and Reggie Lewis, RIP).  What do you expect; you're from Boston!  

I would get into arguments with friends over this when they would tell me- nay WARN ME - that I was better off with my teams NOT winning.  Especially the Red Sox. Once the Red Sox won, I was told, then Boston would be "just another city" and Boston, "Just another team;" who cares if the Sox lost AFTER they won it all!  No, this way- with the Sox "Cursed" that made them special.  Win and you were just like everyone else- and every season 31 teams always ended up losers.  

I. Hated. With. Every. Fiber. Of. My. Being. This Time. Period.  

Imagine being told that Iw as better off for having my teams lose?  That "just another team" was somehow a warning?  HOW!!!????  That was the goal- I WANTED to be just like every other team!?  Fuck!  I was so sick and tired of being screwed with; if every year, all but one team lost, what was wrong with- every decade or so - you won and got to be THAT team?!  

I once got into an argument with a friend of mine in High School when we were asked "What would you rather have: Fenway Franks or a World Series Title" and he picked the franks!  And why? Because to him winning a title was something OTHER TEAMS DID!  We were Red Sox fans- losing was a our God Given Right! I never understood this logic.  

And worst of all was this message that Boston was better if we kept losing.  And the Red Sox was the avatar of this stupidity; a team that had suckered its fan bases day-in and day-out since 1917 because they never spent a dime they didn't have to and were the last to integrate; they got juuuuuuussssst enough talent to fool the fans but never enough to win it all. And somehow that made people think they were "cursed."  After that were the Bruins- the "Dynasty That Wasn't" and then the Celtics- the former girl friend who you used to have great times together but now was looking a little, ah, "experienced" (In fact, things were so bad that by 1999 the "Sports teams as ex girlfriends trope was HUGE: Celtics were as described above; Bruins were the crazy ex whose sex was great but were trouble; Past were the loser Ex you could hook up with and it never meant anything; and OF COURSE, the Red Sox were described as the true love that you knew it was meant to be but because of [ -stop PUKE- ] supernatural forces, you just could not make it work... fuck I hated us then).  

And the Pats were BARELY MENTIONED!  Why?  Because they didn't matter!  Yeah, sure, they were my favorite sports team and I actively watched them week in and week out, but it was horrid.  In the late 80s, the games were still blacked out; in the early 90s they went 1-15 with rod Rust and then we were all ssooooooooo impressed with Dick McPherson ... because under him the team went 6-10.  And then we hired a real estate "flipper" as a head coach (Parcels- always buy low and sell high) and almost moved but hey- still alive in 1997! 

And the whole time- as we were losing and suffering - people took PRIDE IN THAT!  Why?  We were being actively mocked TO OUR FACES and the best we could do was say "Yes, I'll open wider; that way you can get that ENTIRE shit sandwich into my mouth!"  Being in Boston in college was a torment because everyone else is from somewhere else and they love telling you how much your team and fandom sucks balls.  But, in a good way, because you lose. And everyone loves a loser.  Winners?  That's something New York teams did.  And did you really want to be like them? Winning... and enjoying the wins?  Winning is so ... other people's problems, AMIRITE?!?!

For me, I remember vividly the last time it happened.  That last time anyone could call the city- collectively - losers.  

The Rams were driving and Warner went back to pass; as usual, the Pats secondary had everyone covered, so Warner, thinking he saw an opening, swept to the right and tried to advance the ball... only... NO!  HE FUMBLED!  And there was defensive back Tebucky Jones who returned it 97 yards for a touchdown!!!!  ZOMG THE PATS ARE GOING TO WIN THE SUPERBOWLLLL!L!L!L!L!L!L!L! !

Only, funny story, the reason nobody was open was because Willie McGinest was holding the fuck out of Marshall Faulk.  So, no TD, no stop, 1st and ten at the 2... 

And in my apartment, my friend Max, from New Jersey, says, "And that ladies and gentlemen is what its like to be a Boston sports fan."  

Only... 

I have said this before- I'm not going back.  Never.  I am never ever EVER again going to take false pride in losing.  Fuck that.  I hate the idea of fans as victims and said as much when the Cubs lost two seasons ago and were VERY happy for them when they won this season.  I want the Browns to win.  I DO!  Same for the Lions, Bears, and Bengals and other teams not necessarily associated with the Wizard of Oz.  I want YOUR TEAM TO WIN!  Believe me when I say that.  I do. 

Because nobody should ever look at a fan and say to them, "What do you expect- your a _____ fan."

Except the Jets. Fuck the Jets.  

 

 

Edited by Rockroi

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:cheers:

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2 hours ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

Seems like suspending him for a pair is reasonable.

A reduction could always be performed if someone is unhappy with the size of the suspensions...

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2 hours ago, Joe Pesci said:

A reduction could always be performed if someone is unhappy with the size of the suspensions...

lt is always nice finding humor in sexual assault isn't it? :bang:

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9 minutes ago, Howdyphillip said:

lt is always nice finding humor in sexual assault isn't it? :bang:

You going to stop watching and supporting the Cowboys and Elliott because of this incident? If you aren't, then get down off your soapbox.

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Posted (edited)

22 minutes ago, Joe Pesci said:

You going to stop watching and supporting the Cowboys and Elliott because of this incident? If you aren't, then get down off your soapbox.

Is that the bar? Please, what a load of shit. 

He's not wrong.

Edited by Week

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5 minutes ago, Week said:

Is that the bar? Please, what a load of shit. 

He's not wrong.

I've got no problem admitting my earlier post was in poor taste. As to your bar, if a person is upset over an offhand joke, then the actual incident should make them reconsider how much stock they place in their team and star player. That's my opinion. If you disagree with that, then that's fine.

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4 minutes ago, Joe Pesci said:

I've got no problem admitting my earlier post was in poor taste. As to your bar, if a person is upset over an offhand joke, then the actual incident should make them reconsider how much stock they place in their team and star player. That's my opinion. If you disagree with that, then that's fine.

I do. The crack back is worse than the joke typically.

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, Joe Pesci said:

I've got no problem admitting my earlier post was in poor taste. As to your bar, if a person is upset over an offhand joke, then the actual incident should make them reconsider how much stock they place in their team and star player. That's my opinion. If you disagree with that, then that's fine.

 

Hear hear. Things have gotten way too serious around here of late. A stupid pun is a stupid pun. If you want to criticize my lame attempt at a joke, fine. The self-righteous shaming is a bit much though. It was a silly little breast joke. 

Edited by Manhole Eunuchsbane

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Posted (edited)

27 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

 

Hear hear. Things have gotten way too serious around here of late. A stupid pun is a stupid pun. If you want to criticize my lame attempt at a joke fine. The self-righteous shaming is a bit much though. It was a silly little breast joke. 

It's more like if your'e gonna joke about some stuff, you better be damn sure you're being funny.

Edited by sperry

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