Lucius Lovejoy

Endgame roles for all major characters (TV only)

195 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

6 hours ago, Dragonsbone said:

You are talking about books, I was talking about television. As I said, one could find a lot of arguements why Danny and Jon could happen (feudal system; not concidered Incest; it is normal in those times and so on and so forth). And I am not saying that it would be unreasonable. I am just saying that you won't see it happening on television. Maybe the show does not have to diverge from the books here, because one of them will die.

 if that makes you feel better, i don't think both Jonrya and Jonsa is happening in the show either,

all of Jon and Arya's relationship have been wiped out in the show and they rarely think of each other too, (arya isn't the reason why jon died and etc.)

(OH AND DONT READ THIS IF YOU DONT WANT TO BE SPOILED:) and its obvious that dany/jon is going to happen since the spoilers in the internet says so...

i just think Jonrya happening in books is entirely possible, but this is not a book thread so  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Edited by RevaM

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Posted (edited)

11 hours ago, Lord Friendzone said:

It might not end this way but Jon will marry someone from his family and my money are on Dany. She has one more marriage to have and guess who is that guy? Jon as she says - if she is to rule,she has to marry to gain alliance. Little did she knew that she won't marry for politics but for love.

Why would Jon break up with Dany? Furst of all he's not against incest as some people think he is. He thinks about Arya when thinking about Ygritte's body, wonder how skinny Arya is. I could mention other examples, but it should be pretty clear that he has no problem for it. He also has Targaryen genes and Dany is relatively a stranger to him. If Dany is pregnant by then, he'll marry her because he knows what it's like to be a bastard. It's much more complex than what you just described.

bruh, you're doing the same mistake as i did, this is a TV only thread. For Show Jon, arya is non-existent 

Edited by RevaM

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Posted (edited)

On 5/29/2017 at 2:30 AM, SecretWeapon said:

she stopped dyeing at season 6. S6 + S7 + S8 = 23 episodes and 3 years.

She got Jean Gray but only she (and her team) knows how many she lost because of it.

she still had her hair dyed for almost the entire season 6

the last episode of season 6 doesn't count, so no it doesn't make it 3 years

and what exactly did she loose? playing jean grey was if nothing but an advantage for her. i personally think that she expanded her rep from a child star who is and will be only known for a famous show she was once a part of to a talented actress in hollywood...and emma stone constantly dyes her hair to red  yet she still got to play many roles. i just don't think having your hair dyed to red will damage your chances of getting a role just sayin'

Edited by RevaM

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45 minutes ago, RevaM said:

 if that makes you feel better, i don't think both Jonrya and Jonsa is happening in the show either,

all of Jon and Arya's relationship have been wiped out in the show and they rarely think of each other too, (arya isn't the reason why jon died and etc.)

(OH AND DONT READ THIS IF YOU DONT WANT TO BE SPOILED:) and its obvious that dany/jon is going to happen since the spoilers in the internet says so...

i just think Jonrya happening in books is entirely possible, but this is not a book thread so  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Yes I have read the spoilers. I mentioned in my earlier response that Jon and Danny will fall in love in season 7. But when Jon finds out about his parentage, that will be it. I don't know if he will be forced to end it or if one of them will die. I honestly have no Idea how it will play out in season 8. I am just dead sure that they will not end up together at the end of the show and live happily ever after

 

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Posted (edited)

On 5/30/2017 at 10:50 AM, Dragonsbone said:

Yes I have read the spoilers. I mentioned in my earlier response that Jon and Danny will fall in love in season 7. But when Jon finds out about his parentage, that will be it. I don't know if he will be forced to end it or if one of them will die. I honestly have no Idea how it will play out in season 8. I am just dead sure that they will not end up together at the end of the show and live happily ever after

 

yeah i mean, jon/dany apparently will have sex in s7 but i don't think they'll end up being together and have their HEA(i think Dany will die at childbirth)

another thing is why i'm not convinced jon/dany will be an endgame is because GRRM never even intended them to be a couple in the first place...I know i'm using book/original outline references again but those refs can be very helpful (for me at least ) when i try to figure out the ending for asoiaf/GoT.

also like sansa, dany isn't really the type jon would be interested in but that's again from the books

I personally never liked what D&D has done since the talysa/jeyne switch and i hated D&D even more since the sansa/jeyne switch. they really did mess up the characters (they made ooc), they messed up one of the main relationships that the books had, they messed up the story and etc. Generally  speaking, imho D&D screwed up pretty badly and i'm 100% that many things in the show will not mirror the books...(the main principle/aspect will be the same but many things will be very different)

Maybe Jon/dany will happen in the show but not in the books...idk... i mean GRRM did tell them the ending but i'm sure it was vague and not concise since by the look of it D&D improvised everything. if that's the case then i fully support grrm because if he did tell them the ending in details then we can consider that grrm and his books have lost. 

Generally speaking, i always fancied the idea of Jon being the great other's champion/being the tragic hero and dany being AA/TPTWP and i have always hoped that grrm would avoid the cliche ending of them falling in love and rather have them be against each other. that would truly a be a song of ice and fire wouldn't it?

idk about you but its been like 2 years since i stopped considering the show as a reliable source. the show has become a very poorly written fan fiction now and the only difference is that they have grrm's blessing and enough cha-ching to make an adaptation on small screen.

Edited by RevaM

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13 hours ago, Dragonsbone said:

You are talking about books, I was talking about television. As I said, one could find a lot of arguements why Danny and Jon could happen (feudal system; not concidered Incest; it is normal in those times and so on and so forth). And I am not saying that it would be unreasonable. I am just saying that you won't see it happening on television. Maybe the show does not have to diverge from the books here, because one of them will die.

And, Books and show version of Jon has same morals, principles and characteristics for the most part.

We won't se it happening, Did you by any chance had a chance to watch the next season? Because unless you did, I wouldn't make these judgements. Death is possibly in both the books and show.

6 hours ago, RevaM said:

bruh, you're doing the same mistake as i did, this is a TV only thread. For Show Jon, arya is non-existent 

And tv is based on what? Yes, the books. The morals, principles or characteristics are matching with their book counterparts for the most part.

Show have been downplaying Arya for a reason because they won't be together - but doesn't mean Jon will be 100% against any relationship with Dany post reveal. By that time he'll have strong feelings for her, she' is a relative stranger to him = in season 7 they are getting closer to each other on many levels. It will make him question many things but I don't think he'll leave her, much less if they do have a child. Jon knows wat it's like to be live a life of a bastard.

4 hours ago, RevaM said:

yeah i mean, jon/dany apparently will have sex in s7 but i don't think they'll end up being together...

another thing is why i'm not convinced jon/dany will be an endgame is because GRRM never even intended them to be a couple in the first place...I know i'm using book/original outline references again but those refs can be very helpful (for me at least ) when i try to figure out the ending for asoiaf/GoT.

George never intended for them to be a couple? Oh yes, that's why e have countless of hints, foresdadowing, connections between two characters that never met before. Cheeky George with this, almost fooled us. ^_^

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also like sansa, dany isn't really the type jon would be interested in but that's again from the books

Jon is pretty much except few things (not entirely happy about them) same as the books version. Dany is not his type. I guess independent, strong willed, badass, ruthless, killer is not a type for Jon. I don't know about you but that is exactly his type in the books or on the show.

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I personally never liked what D&D has done since the talysa/jeyne switch and i hated D&D even more since the sansa/jeyne switch. they really did mess up the characters (they made ooc), they messed up one of the main relationships that the books had, they messed up the story and etc. Generally  speaking, imho D&D screwed up pretty badly and i'm 100% that many things in the show will not mirror the books...(the main principle/aspect will be the same but many things will be very different)

This is where we can agree but then D&D wanted to give her agenda unlike Bran but to include her this way was not a good idea. Sansa took various arcs Jeyne Westrling or Alys Karstark.

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Maybe Jon/dany will happen in the show but not in the books...idk... i mean GRRM did tell them the ending but i'm sure it was vague and not concise since by the look of it D&D improvised everything. if that's the case then i fully support grrm because if he did tell them the ending in details then we can consider that grrm and his books have lost. 

If it happens in the show, it will happen in the books, Why do you think they had a meeting with George to know where the story is going. George planned it since the beginning but who knows how it'll end. Much like Shireen's death, Hodor's death the context could be different. Where to meet, under which circumstances but these two will be allies and very likely lovers.

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Generally speaking, i always fancied the idea of Jon being the great other's champion/being the tragic hero and dany being AA/TPTWP and i have always hoped that grrm would avoid the cliche ending of them falling in love and rather have them be against each other. that would truly a be a song of ice and fire wouldn't it?

idk about you but its been like 2 years since i stopped considering the show as a reliable source. the show has become a very poorly written fan fiction now and the only difference is that they have grrm's blessing and enough cha-ching to make an adaptation on small screen.

You want Jon being OCC and going against everything George did for his character? Years of development just beng thrown into a garbage bin. I would hope that George will do him justice in regards to his progression. He might not be Jon Snow we knew but to make him enemies with Dany is just sucha bad idea I only heard from those who dislike Dany or any relationship between them. That's not the story we're seeing and were is heading, or where it should. For Jon to become part of those who want to destroy all the humanity.

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6 hours ago, RevaM said:

another thing is why i'm not convinced jon/dany will be an endgame is because GRRM never even intended them to be a couple in the first place...I know i'm using book/original outline references again but those refs can be very helpful (for me at least ) when i try to figure out the ending for asoiaf/GoT.

Even using the published books, there are plenty of references hinting at Jon/Dany. 

 

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also like sansa, dany isn't really the type jon would be interested in but that's again from the books

I have no idea what you mean. It's true that Jon thinks contemptuously of the type of princess who sits up in a tower brushing her hair and waiting to be rescued, i.e. Sansa. Does that sound at all like Dany, khaleesi and sacker of multiple cities? He slobbered all over "lonely, lovely and lethal" Val. That description equally applies to Dany. Also, Jon is struck by Val's beauty, and Val is a blond whose hair turns pale silver (!!!) in the moonlight.

Not really his type? Dany is 100% his type: a headstrong, bold, and ruthless woman of action. Dany's ruthlessness won't bother him; if anything, he'll find it a turn-on, as he does with Val. That Dany is beautiful like Val--likely far more beautiful, given Dany's reputation for beauty in the books--is a bonus. In fact, Jon's attraction to the wildling "princess" Val could well foreshadow a later attraction to the khaleesi-slash-Targ-princess Dany.

 

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Generally  speaking, imho D&D screwed up pretty badly and i'm 100% that many things in the show will not mirror the books...(the main principle/aspect will be the same but many things will be very different)

Maybe Jon/dany will happen in the show but not in the books...idk... i mean GRRM did tell them the ending but i'm sure it was vague and not concise since by the look of it D&D improvised everything.

No, D&D have said all along that "key elements" of the books will be the same in the show. If the two lead characters falling in love isn't a key element, I don't know what is.

If Dany and Jon fall in love in the show, they most assuredly will in the books.

D&D have also said that the ending will be the same as in the books, and they've had the ending mapped out for a very long time.

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The portion of this fandom currently engaging in mental gymnastics in order to refute the looming possibility of a Jon/Dany coupling are fighting a losing battle. If it's happening in the show, it's happening in the books. And it was always going to happen in the books.

Get ready for a rude awakening.

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Posted (edited)

2 hours ago, Lord Friendzone said:

George never intended for them to be a couple? Oh yes, that's why e have countless of hints, foresdadowing, connections between two characters that never met before. Cheeky George with this, almost fooled us.

 like what?? the blue rose that grew in any icy wall that dany thought smelled sweet in the house of the undying? ned also thought the blue rose smelled sweet does that mean he'll marry jon? that just indicates that lyanna's son is currently at the wall, it doesn't indicate any marriage or whatsoever. (if this wasn't your point, then i'm sorry its just this is the most popular "proof" jon/dany supporters like to provide)

i know dany and jon have parallels and few foreshadowings but so does jon and arya and if anything, jon and arya have way more foreshadowings that jon/dany.

2 hours ago, Lord Friendzone said:

You want Jon being OCC and going against everything George did for his character? Years of development just beng thrown into a garbage bin. I would hope that George will do him justice in regards to his progression. He might not be Jon Snow we knew but to make him enemies with Dany is just sucha bad idea I only heard from those who dislike Dany or any relationship between them. That's not the story we're seeing and were is heading, or where it should. For Jon to become part of those who want to destroy all the humanity.

what do you mean by going "into a garbage bin" and be OOC? 

and jon being the Others champion is completely plausible in my opinion and isn't trash. george said that the other's are not what they seem, honestly if we think of it...we don't know anything about the other's OR about their intentions:

"The Others are not dead. They are strange, beautiful… think, oh… the Sidhe made of ice, something like that… a different sort of life… inhuman, elegant, dangerous."-GRRM

yes they are dangerous, but no entirely black. what if rhollor is the bad guy while the others just want to protect their land from rhllor's champion??? how can we say that the other's are purely evil when we dont even know their motifs? yes the others aren't the biggest fans of humans and they want them off their lands but that doesn't mean they're evil.why didn't they attack the entire wildling force? why did they let 1/3 of the watch get away when they had the complete ability to kill all of them?  why did they leave craster alone? 

there are so many possibilities that can make a good story. The North's magic vs the South's dragon, Other's champion (jon) vs AA/TPTW (dany), ice vs fire, Others vs dragons and etc. 

and i'm not throwing away the possibility of jon/dany falling in love, i think that's plausible too but so is jon/val and jon/arya. 

50 minutes ago, Newstar said:

I have no idea what you mean. It's true that Jon thinks contemptuously of the type of princess who sits up in a tower brushing her hair and waiting to be rescued, i.e. Sansa. Does that sound at all like Dany, khaleesi and sacker of multiple cities? He slobbered all over "lonely, lovely and lethal" Val. That description equally applies to Dany. Also, Jon is struck by Val's beauty, and Val is a blond whose hair turns pale silver (!!!) in the moonlight.

Not really his type? Dany is 100% his type: a headstrong, bold, and ruthless woman of action. Dany's ruthlessness won't bother him; if anything, he'll find it a turn-on, as he does with Val. That Dany is beautiful like Val--likely far more beautiful, given Dany's reputation for beauty in the books--is a bonus. In fact, Jon's attraction to the wildling "princess" Val could well foreshadow a later attraction to the khaleesi-slash-Targ-princess Dany

okey. congrats, you got me off guard there, i forgot to edit that (oops)

val and arya also are jon's type and are closer to him geographically than dany. dany still has a lot to do  in mereen, do you think she'll drop all that and go to the wall to fuck jon? arya is most likely heading to the wall, heck val is already at the wall, while dany is busy in mereen jon will start a relationship with either of those 2, its not like he's going to wait for his aunt to show up.

but dany has a type too, she likes confident, hunky men that are full of themselves like darrio or drago. jon doesn't fit to the category.

+the last thing i'll ever wish for jon is to end up with the pompous, arrogant and presumptuous person like daenerys.

and do you think dany will be even happy to find out that he has a nephew who has better claim to the throne than she does???heck that means jon is the heir not dany and she cant do anything about it. dany isn't just going to give up her right to some nephew is she? there will be conflict. and its not going to be pretty. its not like the moment they'll see each other there will fall in love at first sight, then be the badass power couple of westeros and defeat the evil and finally get married and have their HEA. no. its not grrm like.

50 minutes ago, Newstar said:

No, D&D have said all along that "key elements" of the books will be the same in the show. If the two lead characters falling in love isn't a key element, I don't know what is.

If Dany and Jon fall in love in the show, they most assuredly will in the books.

D&D have also said that the ending will be the same as in the books, and they've had the ending mapped out for a very long time.

the outline never said they will fall in love, and grrm said he is sticking to his original plan countless times. maybe he changed it, maybe he didn't, who knows? i sure don't! i may depend on the outline a bit too much and i may be wrong but i really prefer Jon vs Dany than a cliche Jon/Dany romance.

the fact that they haven't even met yet and somehow they have to get to know each other and fall in love in 2 books really turns me off. the romance will be forced and rushed, and i don't think george will have the time to start a romance between 2 people who haven't even met!!  and he has so many plots to cover!!! he'd rather have jon fall in love with someone he already knows and loves and has a chemistry with (val or arya) but that is MY HUMBLE OPINION and that is MY WISHFUL THINKING. I COULD BE WRONG. but if jon/dany will happen i will be greatly disappointed. 

 

2 hours ago, Lord Friendzone said:

If it happens in the show, it will happen in the books, Why do you think they had a meeting with George to know where the story is going. George planned it since the beginning but who knows how it'll end. Much like Shireen's death, Hodor's death the context could be different. Where to meet, under which circumstances but these two will be allies and very likely lovers.

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YES EXACTLY he has planned everything from the beginning and Jon/Dany is not one of them!!! if you read the original outline you'll see that there is no mention of jon/dany falling in love. that's my main reason why i think jon/dany wont be the endgame material(in the books)

 

2 hours ago, Lord Friendzone said:

And tv is based on what? Yes, the books. The morals, principles or characteristics are matching with their book counterparts for the most part.

the things you mentioned never happened in the show, and this is a TV show only thread so that's why i told you that.

 

2 hours ago, Lord Friendzone said:

Show have been downplaying Arya for a reason because they won't be together - but doesn't mean Jon will be 100% against any relationship with Dany post reveal. By that time he'll have strong feelings for her, she' is a relative stranger to him = in season 7 they are getting closer to each other on many levels. It will make him question many things but I don't think he'll leave her, much less if they do have a child. Jon knows wat it's like to be live a life of a bastard.

wasn't dany a barren?

Edited by RevaM

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Posted (edited)

37 minutes ago, RevaM said:

okey. congrats, you got me off guard there, i forgot to edit that (oops)

val and arya also are jon's type and are closer to him geographically. dany still has a lot to do and in mereen, do you think she'll drop all that and go to the wall to screw jon? arya is heading to the wall, heck val is already in the wall, while dany is busy in mereen jon will start a relationship with either of those 2, its not like he's going to wait his aunt to show up.

Book Arya is still in Essos with no sign of leaving anytime soon. If Jon/Dany is preposterous because Dany is still in Essos, then Jon/Arya is equally preposterous for the same reason.

In the show, there is no Val--meaning she's unimportant in the grand scheme of things in the books--and Jon will fall in love with Dany. That suggests that he will fall in love with Dany in the books, a "key element" in the show and therefore in the books.

 

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but dany has a type too, she likes confident, hunky men that are full of themselves like darrio or drago. jon doesn't fit to the category.

Jon is plenty arrogant in the books. It gets him into trouble a few times. And while we don't know how attractive he is supposed to be, other than his similarity to the plain Ned, he certainly seems like catnip to the ladies, with Melisandre, Val, and even Alys Karstark flirting with him in ADWD.

Even though we're looking at a sample size of two when it comes to Dany's men, one could equally say that judging from Drogo and Daario, Dany likes alpha warrior types who are great in bed, and Jon Snow certainly fits the bill.

Lastly, it wasn't just Daario's swagger or looks that drew Dany; it was the little kindnesses he showed her.

 

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+the last thing i'll ever wish for jon is to end up with the pompous, arrogant and presumptuous person like daenerys.

One person's presumptuous and arrogant is another person's bold and confident, and Jon seems to prefer bold, confident women. 

 

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there will be conflict. and its not going to be pretty. 

We know from the show spoilers that this doesn't happen. 

 

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the outline never said [Jon and Dany] will fall in love

The portion of the outline published didn't even cover Dany's invasion, so we have no idea how Jon and Dany will react to each other once they meet. If the show spoilers are to be believed, they will ally with each other rather than see each other as enemies.

If Dany falls in love with Jon before finding out his true parentage, I imagine she'll take it in stride. She grew up expecting to marry her brother, so marrying her nephew is no big deal, and she was perfectly happy to be khaleesi to Drogo's khal when she was in love with him. Dany has always wanted a family of her own first and foremost, so finding out that her lover, whom she loves deeply and whom she respects as a leader, is related to her and has a claim that trumps hers--relieving her of the burden of ruling--may be the best news she's ever had.

 

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YES EXACTLY he has planned everything from the beginning and Jon/Dany is not one of them!!! if you read the original outline you'll see that there is no mention of jon/dany falling in love. that's my main reason why i think jon/dany wont happen

The outline only covered the first book of three, and Dany hadn't left Essos yet, so that's not much of an argument.

It is true that Jon harbours an illicit passion for Arya in the outline, but he does not in the published books to date, and if the TV spoilers are reliable, it will be Dany he falls for and not Arya, suggesting that GRRM ultimately changed his mind about the Jon/Arya plot, just as he changed his mind about various elements of the plot outline that were scrapped in the books: Tyrion burning down Winterfell, Arya going to the Wall, Sansa birthing Joffrey's heir, etc. Tyrion didn't fall in love with Arya in the books, even though he did in the outline and nor does he seem likely to do so, given that GRRM gave ASOIAF Tyrion a lost love plotline as well as unrequited lust for another Stark girl, so why would Jon fall in love with Arya in future books?  

GRRM's ending may have been the same all along, but he may never have intended Arya and Jon to end up together, which would allow him to scrap the planned Jon/Arya romance just as he scrapped the planned Jon/Arya/Tyrion love triangle without altering his original ending (which seems likely to have been Jon and Dany together on the throne).

Edited by Newstar

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Posted (edited)

Just now, Newstar said:

Book Arya is still in Essos with no sign of leaving anytime soon. If Jon/Dany is preposterous because Dany is still in Essos, then Jon/Arya is equally preposterous for the same reason.

 

UMMM no? In TWOW chapter arya is already planning to leave the FM+ bravoos is wayyy closer to westeros than mereen is, so yes arya is geographically closer.

 

Just now, Newstar said:

Jon is plenty arrogant in the books. It gets him into trouble a few times. And while we don't know how attractive he is supposed to be, other than his similarity to the plain Ned, he certainly seems like catnip to the ladies, with Melisandre, Val, and even Alys Karstark flirting with him in ADWD.

Even though we're looking at a sample size of two when it comes to Dany's men, one could equally say that judging from Drogo and Daario, Dany likes alpha warrior types who are great in bed, and Jon Snow certainly fits the bill.

Lastly, it wasn't just Daario's swagger or looks that drew Dany; it was the little kindnesses he showed her.

 

LOL remind me, when did melisandre try to seduce jon in the books? that is only show wise. 

dario is experienced with the ladies and sarcastic and funny and attractive and dany seems to favour that the most in men whereas jon is sullen, even if he is cute, he is now way close to darrio's valyrian features that dany loves so much or drogo's hunkiness 

Just now, Newstar said:

We know from the show spoilers that this doesn't happen. 

you get me awfully confused, are we discussing the books or the show? please make up your mind, i (and some other people) no longer count the show as a reliable source and the only reason why i'm still here is because, you and the other poster started to debate on jon/dany and you constantly keep switching to either books or the show to prove your point while i only use the books.

if the books were the same as the show then in this forum they wouldn't have separated the two things from each other.

also the show spoiler=/= the books 

Just now, Newstar said:

The portion of the outline published didn't even cover Dany's invasion, so we have no idea how Jon and Dany will react to each other once they meet. If the show spoilers are to be believed, they will ally with each other rather than see each other as enemies.

If Dany falls in love with Jon before finding out his true parentage, I imagine she'll take it in stride. She grew up expecting to marry her brother, so marrying her nephew is no big deal, and she was perfectly happy to be khaleesi to Drogo's khal when she was in love with him. Dany has always wanted a family of her own first and foremost, so finding out that her lover, whom she loves deeply and whom she respects as a leader, is related to her and has a claim that trumps hers--relieving her of the burden of ruling--may be the best news she's ever had.

you're forgetting that jon is the heir to the throne and maybe he doesn't wish to marry dany

Just now, Newstar said:

The outline only covered the first book of three, and Dany hadn't left Essos yet, so that's not much of an argument.

It is true that Jon harbours an illicit passion for Arya in the outline, but he does not in the published books to date, and if the TV spoilers are reliable, it will be Dany he falls for and not Arya, suggesting that GRRM ultimately changed his mind about the Jon/Arya plot, just as he changed his mind about various elements of the plot outline that were scrapped in the books: Tyrion burning down Winterfell, Arya going to the Wall, Sansa birthing Joffrey's heir, etc. Tyrion didn't fall in love with Arya in the books, even though he did in the outline and nor does he seem likely to do so, given that GRRM gave ASOIAF Tyrion a lost love plotline as well as unrequited lust for another Stark girl, so why would Jon fall in love with Arya in future books?  

GRRM's ending may have been the same all along, but he may never have intended Arya and Jon to end up together, which would allow him to scrap the planned Jon/Arya romance just as he scrapped the planned Jon/Arya/Tyrion love triangle without altering his original ending (which seems likely to have been Jon and Dany together on the throne).

if he did change his mind then he wouldn't have constantly told us he knows who is going to marry/fall in love from the get go, he wouldn't have told us he had always known JON'S, ARYA'S and TYRION'S arcs from the get go (and what a coincidence, a lot of things were written in the outline about them huh?), and if he scrapped jon/arya then he had the perfect opportunity to say that "no, it isn't happening" multiple times when he was asked about it. the fact that he didn't outwardly deny jon/arya says a lot already.

also, i've mentioned that many times on other threads, the main things did happen but in a different way. the main key plots have happened in a different way. (people like cat, ned, robb were doomed to die from the beginning)

Martin started his novels with jon/arya in his mind. he even said that most of his foreshadowings are in the 1st book.

 

P.S: if you want to debate on that, create a thread or something or send me pm or whatever, cause i think we're going off topic here. 

Edited by RevaM

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43 minutes ago, RevaM said:

if he did change his mind then he wouldn't have constantly told us he knows who is going to marry/fall in love from the get go, he wouldn't have told us he had always known JON'S, ARYA'S and TYRION'S arcs from the get go (and what a coincidence, a lot of things were written in the outline about them huh?)

He obviously didn't consider Tyrion falling in love part of Tyrion's arc, since that part has changed from the outline, so if he has always known Tyrion's arc, Tyrion's love for Arya was not part of that arc, since he scrapped it. Why would Jon's love for Arya in the outline therefore necessarily be a part of theirs?

The Jon/Tyrion/Arya love triangle was also apparently not part of Tyrion, Jon or Arya's arc, since GRRM claimed he has always known these characters' arcs but still saw fit to scrap the love triangle which was presumably an important part of their arcs (since he went to the trouble of mentioning it in the outline). Why, then, would Jon falling in love with Arya not be considered expendable as well? 

Jon, Tyrion and Arya were three of the main five in the outline. GRRM has claimed to have always known their arcs.

Tyrion was supposed to fall madly in love with Arya, something that seems pretty important to his character arc. That didn't happen, and in light of Tysha and Sansa it's safe to say it won't happen. 

Jon and Tyrion were supposed to enter into a deadly rivalry as a result of this. That didn't happen, and again in light of Tysha and Sansa it's safe to say it won't happen.

So either Tyrion's love for Arya and the love triangle were not considered part of Tyrion's arc, or GRRM was lying when he said that he has always known Tyrion's arc. We know that GRRM avoids outright lying to his fans, so it seems likely that the former is true.

Given all this, then, why must Jon fall in love with Arya in the books? GRRM could consider Jon's outline love for Arya as inessential to their arcs as just as he considered Tyrion's unrequited love for Arya inessential to his.

We know with a fair amount of certainty that Tyrion's unrequited love for Arya was changed for the books. Why assume Jon's love for Arya was not changed as well?

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Posted (edited)

Just now, Newstar said:

He obviously didn't consider Tyrion falling in love part of Tyrion's arc, since that part has changed from the outline, so if he has always known Tyrion's arc, Tyrion's love for Arya was not part of that arc, since he scrapped it. Why would Jon's love for Arya in the outline therefore necessarily be a part of theirs?

The Jon/Tyrion/Arya love triangle was also apparently not part of Tyrion, Jon or Arya's arc, since GRRM claimed he has always known these characters' arcs but still saw fit to scrap the love triangle which was presumably an important part of their arcs (since he went to the trouble of mentioning it in the outline). Why, then, would Jon falling in love with Arya not be considered expendable as well? 

Jon, Tyrion and Arya were three of the main five in the outline. GRRM has claimed to have always known their arcs.

Tyrion was supposed to fall madly in love with Arya, something that seems pretty important to his character arc. That didn't happen, and in light of Tysha and Sansa it's safe to say it won't happen. 

Jon and Tyrion were supposed to enter into a deadly rivalry as a result of this. That didn't happen, and again in light of Tysha and Sansa it's safe to say it won't happen.

So either Tyrion's love for Arya and the love triangle were not considered part of Tyrion's arc, or GRRM was lying when he said that he has always known Tyrion's arc. We know that GRRM avoids outright lying to his fans, so it seems likely that the former is true.

Given all this, then, why must Jon fall in love with Arya in the books? GRRM could consider Jon's outline love for Arya as inessential to their arcs as just as he considered Tyrion's unrequited love for Arya inessential to his.

We know with a fair amount of certainty that Tyrion's unrequited love for Arya was changed for the books. Why assume Jon's love for Arya was not changed as well?

*HEAVY SIGH* anyway, as i said previously, this debate is going to end badly if we continue here, and as i said this isn't about jon/dany or jon/arya or anything book related and we're going off topic, so we either stop here, or you debate on other threads, or we continue with pm. i don't think its worth bickering since none of use will change our minds and this isn't really the thread's main topic . i already explained my view on this and i even created a thread on this topic with all proofs and explanations and yada yada... but it ended badly...

i'm remained convinced that there is a possibility for jon/arya and i think jon/arya have many good reasons to fall in love and yada yada...but as i said, this isn't even what the thread was about and i don't even know how we diverged so far from the topic. i'm putting the full stop here...you can discuss this with someone else, or feel free to continue with me on pm, if not then its fine too. so yeah that's it from me i guess.

Edited by RevaM

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7 hours ago, RevaM said:

 like what?? the blue rose that grew in any icy wall that dany thought smelled sweet in the house of the undying? ned also thought the blue rose smelled sweet does that mean he'll marry jon? that just indicates that lyanna's son is currently at the wall, it doesn't indicate any marriage or whatsoever. (if this wasn't your point, then i'm sorry its just this is the most popular "proof" jon/dany supporters like to provide)

Not gonna write the whole thing because you can search it yourself around here or elsewhere so just a few things to point out.

It's the where George put it as blue rose is in the part of house of the undying visions which previously included two of her husbands Drogo, what seems like Hizdar or Euron and third one is Jon. Dany dreaming of young man wth a shifting face like shadow, who's been associated with this exact things shifting face, shadow ... Jon. She dreamed about sleeping with someone younger than Jorah, more comey face again pointing to Jon. Dany feeling sad and lonely when she heard wolf howl in the distance, around the time Jon was killed, Funny coincidence, isn't it? Jon vice versa looking at Val's blonde her turning in the moonlight silver and he liked it. Who has a silver hair? Right Dany.

If you serch for these hints or foreshadowings, you'll find them.

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i know dany and jon have parallels and few foreshadowings but so does jon and arya and if anything, jon and arya have way more foreshadowings that jon/dany.

Not on the show, since you ant to be strict about it. Combine both mediums and Jon and Dany do have more. Since show follow books in this. You see where i'm going with this.

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what do you mean by going "into a garbage bin" and be OOC? 

and jon being the Others champion is completely plausible in my opinion and isn't trash. george said that the other's are not what they seem, honestly if we think of it...we don't know anything about the other's OR about their intentions:

"The Others are not dead. They are strange, beautiful… think, oh… the Sidhe made of ice, something like that… a different sort of life… inhuman, elegant, dangerous."-GRRM

yes they are dangerous, but no entirely black. what if rhollor is the bad guy while the others just want to protect their land from rhllor's champion??? how can we say that the other's are purely evil when we dont even know their motifs? yes the others aren't the biggest fans of humans and they want them off their lands but that doesn't mean they're evil.why didn't they attack the entire wildling force? why did they let 1/3 of the watch get away when they had the complete ability to kill all of them?  why did they leave craster alone? 

there are so many possibilities that can make a good story. The North's magic vs the South's dragon, Other's champion (jon) vs AA/TPTW (dany), ice vs fire, Others vs dragons and etc. 

By making Jon joing the side that wants to kill all the humanity. That is the white walkers goal but here you mix books and the show you previously gave me slap on the wrist for.. That would throw his character development into the garbage bin and make him act out of character. He can be more cunning, ruthless and darker but not to this extent.

Show made it look like living vs dead not R'hllor vs the Other, George warned us about religion and ASOIAF story. You really want Jon and Dany to go against each oher but sorry that is a terrible idea and your further comments on her just proves that you simply hate her. A lot of Jon stans wants this. Jon and Dany togo against each other, try to kill one another.

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and i'm not throwing away the possibility of jon/dany falling in love, i think that's plausible too but so is jon/val and jon/arya. 

okey. congrats, you got me off guard there, i forgot to edit that (oops)

val and arya also are jon's type and are closer to him geographically than dany. dany still has a lot to do  in mereen, do you think she'll drop all that and go to the wall to fuck jon? arya is most likely heading to the wall, heck val is already at the wall, while dany is busy in mereen jon will start a relationship with either of those 2, its not like he's going to wait for his aunt to show up.

 

Two romances in the space of two books? Interesting but Val is Jon's version of Daario. Arya has Gendry at least on the show and you can tell show is not going into Jon and Arya direction. I was a fan of Jon and Arya but that was until houe of the undying visions.

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but dany has a type too, she likes confident, hunky men that are full of themselves like darrio or drago. jon doesn't fit to the category.

Jon is confident, warrior, alpha male, leader, charismatic. Seriously this is so old argument against them and disproven so many times.

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YES EXACTLY he has planned everything from the beginning and Jon/Dany is not one of them!!! if you read the original outline you'll see that there is no mention of jon/dany falling in love. that's my main reason why i think jon/dany wont be the endgame material(in the books)

 

the things you mentioned never happened in the show, and this is a TV show only thread so that's why i told you that.

Does it look like Jon/Tyrion/Arya triangle is in the books or on he show? Original outline was changed since then and this was jsut the beginning for George. He obviously had in mind other things, twisted it and which have resulated in including Gendry and Ygritte who are a bit like Jon and Arya. Certain aspects of them for sure and included all those hints, foreshadowings just for the fun? I don't think so. Whatever happens on he show, key relationships such as this, events like deaths will happen in the books. Why do oyu think George had numerous meetings with them over the future of Game of Thrones/A Song of Ice and Fire.

 

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wasn't dany a barren?

That's what she thinks but we know she probably had a miscarriage at the end of ADWD, on the show they're going again into dragons being her only children. She will get pregnant but with the right guy.

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Well this has turned in an unexpected direction... I never should have innocently asked for someone to explain JonSa to me...

On ‎5‎/‎29‎/‎2017 at 5:48 PM, Dragonsbone said:

You can argue about all the possibilities and even bring reasonable arguements for your case, but I guarantee you (not meant arrogant), that neither a marriage between Jon and Arya, nor Jon and Sansa and neither Jon and Danny will happen. There is no fucking way, this show will end up with the major hero ending up on incest. Before you argue that none of these is actual incest, you may be right but it is still a marriage/relationship under relatives which most americans and europeans at least consider it moraly as incest.

Since this show is

a. written and produced by, and

b. writen and produced for people from the western culture

there is no way whatsoever that the show will end with it. No way. Western cultures are at least very unconfortable with such relationsships. This is still hollywood we are talking about. And this is not a B Movie or an indipendent movie. They like spectacle and drama, but the hero still has to fit with the moral standard of the viewers. I think that Jon and Danny may fall in love in season 7, but when Jon finds out about his parentage, that will be the dealbreaker. 

I 99% agree with you here, but I think there is a loophole for Jon/Dany - either Jon flatly rejects his lineage accepting Ned as his real father or (more likely) Jon is never made aware of his lineage even if other characters know OR Jon finds out his lineage after Dany's death.

8 hours ago, Newstar said:

Even using the published books, there are plenty of references hinting at Jon/Dany. 

 

I have no idea what you mean. It's true that Jon thinks contemptuously of the type of princess who sits up in a tower brushing her hair and waiting to be rescued, i.e. Sansa. Does that sound at all like Dany, khaleesi and sacker of multiple cities? He slobbered all over "lonely, lovely and lethal" Val. That description equally applies to Dany. Also, Jon is struck by Val's beauty, and Val is a blond whose hair turns pale silver (!!!) in the moonlight.

Not really his type? Dany is 100% his type: a headstrong, bold, and ruthless woman of action. Dany's ruthlessness won't bother him; if anything, he'll find it a turn-on, as he does with Val. That Dany is beautiful like Val--likely far more beautiful, given Dany's reputation for beauty in the books--is a bonus. In fact, Jon's attraction to the wildling "princess" Val could well foreshadow a later attraction to the khaleesi-slash-Targ-princess Dany.

 

No, D&D have said all along that "key elements" of the books will be the same in the show. If the two lead characters falling in love isn't a key element, I don't know what is.

If Dany and Jon fall in love in the show, they most assuredly will in the books.

D&D have also said that the ending will be the same as in the books, and they've had the ending mapped out for a very long time.

Agreed that if Jon/Dany have any romance on TV it will happen in the books, even if it's short lived and tragic or long lasting.  The books can accept the incest piece.  The TV show will have to work around it (see my suggestions above).

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