Lucius Lovejoy

Endgame roles for all major characters (TV only)

109 posts in this topic

15 hours ago, Lord Friendzone said:

It's outline for certain someone who is author of this baby but it sounds pretty bad. Likely for us, he has departed from of these points by now.

Like George or D&D care that much about who is pissed or not. People were pissed after Ned's death, Red Wedding and will continue to be. This is GoT/ASoIaF. If it makes sense, George is capable of doing anything he wants but far poignant would be letting them live throught this mess, being even more miserable. D&D they like to do things for shocking value.

For those fans who understand Jon - we know the Iron Throne is not a good thing and he wouldn't view this way either. There is this presuamption that whoever wins the game, is getting cookie or cake at the end. Whoever is up there (if there is any throne at all) is gonna be miserable getting together devasted lands after the war. I mean George himself stated that LOTR and that ending is something he aspire to do with ASoIaF, so that would mean many character live but suffer as the result of things they went through. some of them might never be the same. I can see that with Arya, Bran, Jon, Dany and others.

R+L=J was always for his personal struggle first and foremost, after all these books are about people in the midst of war, politiics, schemes and how it impact them, learning from it and go on. At least the main characters, some other died. Prophecy (he plays a par), personal struggle and maybe if these leaks are true might even for the iron throne but it ain't a victory. So jon on the iron throne is not really a cheesy fanservice but rather tough and unpleasant responsibility.

What percentage of the audience do you think is likely to interpret such ending as miserable tragedy?  

 I know that Lotr had a bittersweet ending, but I didn't exactly start crying for Aragorn who was to rebuild and entire war ridden kingdom and go on to fight Harad for decades. And I didn't exactly cry for Sam either who was although shaken by Frodo's passing to Valinor, set down to rebuilt Hobbition and start a family and see his children grow up and rise, and even though they both lost and suffered Legolas and Gimli remained friends.

I don't see people (or myself) breaking down in tears if the end is about anybody taking the Iron throne and attempting to rebuild the kingdoms in any political order.  Because even though it's not an easy task and the kingdoms bled in the Great War, it's a new hope, a new start, and ultimately sweet tops the bitter part. People (or myself) won't cry for Arya's season 1 innocence or Sanaa's season 1 dreams and hopes if they see them alive (reunited?) and healthy enough to have a chance for a new start. Yes they will never be the same, and yes horrible things happened to them, but as long as they are alive, there's a prospect for a happier future and that's not a tragic ending. So no, in my opinion, characters staying alive at the end of the series is not tragic. What happened to them along the way was often tragic but a chance for a new start is always a sweet ending. The bitter part is all the characters who died and are yet to die until the tragic things are over and there's light at the end of the tunnel. Bittersweet is not borderline depressing and tragic. 

 

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15 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

But there will be virtually no "secondary" characters in the endings. Those who survive s8 will be key players also in the books.

http://www.cinemablend.com/television/It-Official-Game-Thrones-Spoil-Ending-George-R-R-Martin-Books-70847.html

Luckily, we’ve been talking about this with George [R.R. Martin] for a long time... and we know where things are heading. So, we’ll eventually meet up at pretty much the same place where George is going. There might be a few deviations along the route, but we’re heading towards the same destination.

The deviations are those that you mention, like Hodor's...but the ending, s8's last episodes are the same- More than just spirit.

Jorah, Jaime, Tormund, Brienne are all secondary characters etc. There will be someone at the end and some of them for sure.

I've seen various interviews, pretty much it follows George but even George probably doesn't knw endings for some characters. Like detailed. Few deviations looks like a lot by looks of it. Context of certain will be different, some character who are important in the books are not even on the show or dead.

4 hours ago, RhaenysB said:

What percentage of the audience do you think is likely to interpret such ending as miserable tragedy?  

 I know that Lotr had a bittersweet ending, but I didn't exactly start crying for Aragorn who was to rebuild and entire war ridden kingdom and go on to fight Harad for decades. And I didn't exactly cry for Sam either who was although shaken by Frodo's passing to Valinor, set down to rebuilt Hobbition and start a family and see his children grow up and rise, and even though they both lost and suffered Legolas and Gimli remained friends.

I don't see people (or myself) breaking down in tears if the end is about anybody taking the Iron throne and attempting to rebuild the kingdoms in any political order.  Because even though it's not an easy task and the kingdoms bled in the Great War, it's a new hope, a new start, and ultimately sweet tops the bitter part. People (or myself) won't cry for Arya's season 1 innocence or Sanaa's season 1 dreams and hopes if they see them alive (reunited?) and healthy enough to have a chance for a new start. Yes they will never be the same, and yes horrible things happened to them, but as long as they are alive, there's a prospect for a happier future and that's not a tragic ending. So no, in my opinion, characters staying alive at the end of the series is not tragic. What happened to them along the way was often tragic but a chance for a new start is always a sweet ending. The bitter part is all the characters who died and are yet to die until the tragic things are over and there's light at the end of the tunnel. Bittersweet is not borderline depressing and tragic. 

 

George has talked about bittersweet ending, which goes well with what LOTR did. We're watching characters grow, learn and move on fro mthose tragic things. After all these things Westeros or people deserves some sort of hope at the end. It would be rather depressing if not. To kill people just for the sake of killing them. Somebody has to pick up the pieces of the broken Westerosi society and bring them tothe better future because while they are alive at the end, they still need to do things after the war. While show might exlude this but George won't. Some sort of Epilogue for our characters because why else Jon or Dany learned not only to lead but to rule? They have to put it to use, didn't they?

I talk to some people about ending because we're nearing towards it. People do have a different ideas of what is tragic or not. I saw some people interpretating as tragic and others just doesn't see this as that tragic. For many Jon and Dany living, ruling ad having kids is not bittersweet or tragic enough. For me it depends on circumstances because living in the post-White Walkers era ain't a dreamland. People literally broken in spirits, many friends and loved ones dead, and tons of responsibilities on their shoulders. Does this sound to you as fanservice or too happy? To me it looks very LOTR-ish or what would George do.

 

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Posted (edited)

3 hours ago, Lord Friendzone said:

Jorah, Jaime, Tormund, Brienne are all secondary characters etc. There will be someone at the end and some of them for sure.

I've seen various interviews, pretty much it follows George but even George probably doesn't knw endings for some characters. Like detailed. Few deviations looks like a lot by looks of it. Context of certain will be different, some character who are important in the books are not even on the show or dead.

My point is that even if they are secondary characters, their roles could be very mportant if they live beyond s7: that means they had a role to play, possible as important as the ones of the big characters, or vital in the development of the ending of the series.

Yes, he probably doesn't know the ending of all his characters but I bet that those who are not main ones and will live beyonf s7, like, let's say, possibly Jorah or Jaime, etc. have an ending that Martin knows and he told the showrunners about it.

Edited by Meera of Tarth

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3 hours ago, Lord Friendzone said:

Jorah, Jaime, Tormund, Brienne are all secondary characters etc. There will be someone at the end and some of them for sure.

I've seen various interviews, pretty much it follows George but even George probably doesn't knw endings for some characters. Like detailed. Few deviations looks like a lot by looks of it. Context of certain will be different, some character who are important in the books are not even on the show or dead.

George has talked about bittersweet ending, which goes well with what LOTR did. We're watching characters grow, learn and move on fro mthose tragic things. After all these things Westeros or people deserves some sort of hope at the end. It would be rather depressing if not. To kill people just for the sake of killing them. Somebody has to pick up the pieces of the broken Westerosi society and bring them tothe better future because while they are alive at the end, they still need to do things after the war. While show might exlude this but George won't. Some sort of Epilogue for our characters because why else Jon or Dany learned not only to lead but to rule? They have to put it to use, didn't they?

I talk to some people about ending because we're nearing towards it. People do have a different ideas of what is tragic or not. I saw some people interpretating as tragic and others just doesn't see this as that tragic. For many Jon and Dany living, ruling ad having kids is not bittersweet or tragic enough. For me it depends on circumstances because living in the post-White Walkers era ain't a dreamland. People literally broken in spirits, many friends and loved ones dead, and tons of responsibilities on their shoulders. Does this sound to you as fanservice or too happy? To me it looks very LOTR-ish or what would George do.

 

The story is already far, far beyond LOTR in terms of tragedy, even if not one single other major character dies, which is very unlikely.  

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4 hours ago, Lord Friendzone said:

 

George has talked about bittersweet ending, which goes well with what LOTR did. We're watching characters grow, learn and move on fro mthose tragic things. After all these things Westeros or people deserves some sort of hope at the end. It would be rather depressing if not. To kill people just for the sake of killing them. Somebody has to pick up the pieces of the broken Westerosi society and bring them tothe better future because while they are alive at the end, they still need to do things after the war. While show might exlude this but George won't. Some sort of Epilogue for our characters because why else Jon or Dany learned not only to lead but to rule? They have to put it to use, didn't they?

I talk to some people about ending because we're nearing towards it. People do have a different ideas of what is tragic or not. I saw some people interpretating as tragic and others just doesn't see this as that tragic. For many Jon and Dany living, ruling ad having kids is not bittersweet or tragic enough. For me it depends on circumstances because living in the post-White Walkers era ain't a dreamland. People literally broken in spirits, many friends and loved ones dead, and tons of responsibilities on their shoulders. Does this sound to you as fanservice or too happy? To me it looks very LOTR-ish or what would George do.

 

Yes, that's what I said, life moves on, people rebuild their homes and families and countries and civilizations. And no, I don't think the show will end it in an apocalyptic note, they will do an epilogue too - in my opinion. 

We seem to be just talking past each other. I agree that George would go for something Lotr-ish (if he ever finished the books, which I highly doubt he will), as he so often said, but then I don't think Lotr had a sad ending. Call it high tolerance level or being a heartless monster, but I think Lotr had a pretty happy ending all things considered. Maybe let's establish again that I was talking about the show at beginning, the show is the one to get excessive when it comes to fan service. 

Speaking of Lotr and tragedy, Lotr is a fairy tale (married to a nature documentary). Asoiaf is realistic, raw, graphic and gory and we are in the heads of the characters. Of course asoiaf is going to come off as more tragic. 

 

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It's a question of who's death would serve the story in any way, or what makes sense for the character's based off of what they've done and what kind of character they are. Green - Survives, Red - Dies, Blue - Unsure

  1. Jon Snow = Dies fighting the WWs or survives and rules the North and/or the Seven Kingdoms.
  2. Daenerys = Dies in fight with WWs or Survives and rules the Seven Kingdoms. I lean more towards her dying north of the wall as they foreshadowed it all the way back in Season 2 when she was in the house of the undying and got to see Drogo and her son north of the wall.
  3. Tyrion = Survives. I just don't see any possible reason to kill off Tyrion after everything he has been through. I believe he'll go on to prove his father and everyone wrong and become one of the most prominent Lannisters in history. Rightfully getting & ruling Casterly Rock against his father's wishes.
  4. Sansa = Sansa isn't a warrior so I don't see her dying.
  5. Arya = Arya would be in green as well if she wasn't a warrior, but she is so it's up in the air whether she'll survive the series.
  6. Gendry = Will be the new head of House Baratheon and will probably be LP of the Stormlands.
  7. Jaime = Might die after killing Cersei, against the WWs, or he'll survive and rejoin the Kingsguard, possibly under Daenerys or Jon Snow if one takes over. Fitting that Jaime would begin his KG service under Aerys and end it under Aerys' daughter or grandson.
  8. Cersei = Is killed by Jaime after she decides to try and burn Kings Landing to the ground.
  9. Davos = Could die against the WWs but I see him surviving 
  10. Littlefinger = You could say that LF will finally get his, but will he? The man may have a weakness in Sansa but I feel like it'd be naive and too cliche for LF to get taken. I believe LF will survive in the books and that may be part of George's "bittersweet" ending. They defeat the WWs and save Westeros from them but a lot of characters we really like will die to make this happen, but rhe man who started it all will live on and never get the justice he desevered like so many people in real life history have. Joseph Stalin, Christopher Columbus, etc all got to live out their lives and never paid for their crimes, and those are people and actions we actually know about. Not many know what LF truly did.
  11. Varys = Isn't a fighter and his death wouldn't really have any impact I expect the spider to survive the series.
  12. Theon = Theon is a wild card. He will most likely out live his sister and may end up ruling the Iron Isles as he is a changed and much better man then he was at the beginning of the series.
  13. Yara = I don't see Yara surviving the series to be honest.
  14. Brienne = Survives, no reason to die.
  15. Podrick = Podrick's has been a pretty minor character
  16. Bronn = I see him surviving the to finally get that castle and wife.
  17. Sam Tarly = He has an important part to play in the war to come, but he's not a fighting so I dn't see him dying.
  18. Gilly = Lives.
  19. The Hound = Could die fighting WWs but it's a 50/50 chance.
  20. Beric = Dies fighting WWs and dies for good
  21. Thoros = Could die but if you want to keep a Priest of Rhllor alive, it'd be him.
  22. Melisandre = She dies. No reason to keep her around after bringing back Jon Snow.
  23. Jorah Mormont = I doubt Jorah will find a cure for greyscale. I feel like he'll try but will ultimately decide to return to Daenerys and will die fighting the WWs
  24. Ellaria & Sand Snakes = *Sigh* do I even need to explain?
  25. Euron Greyjoy = Dies against Daenerys or Theon. If Euron was actually a cool character in the show I'd argue for him sticking around but nope get him out of here unless he suddenly shows up with the dragon horn this upcoming season. Can't believe they didn't give him the Dragon horn in the show that could of given him an edge over Daenerys.

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I don't think it's possible to predict Arya's "end game" without first predicting what the FM plot will amount to, if anything - are they "just another" religious cult with fantastical powers (like presumably the Warlocks), and Arya happened to bump into one of their members which resulted in her acquiring some useful skills?

Or do the FM have a more significant role to play, their meeting "not a coincidence", and her training an essential puzzle piece of destiny or whatever?
In the show, aspects of Jaqen's behavior (in Harrenhall, but of course also his smirk at the end) could imply something resembling the latter.

And if it's the former, the narrative probably should take time to explore the contrast between Arya's "random"/"lucky" supernatural training, and Bran's predestined, prophesized one - if both are to figure into the "end game".

Alternatively, it's also possible that Arya actually isn't gonna be part of any puzzle piece against the WWs, and instead will end up as an independent wild card out for vengeance, and possibly mucking up some alliances with the people on her list - or people she might proceed to add to her list later;
the bitterness over having "missed" Joffrey and Gregor might figure into it;
bonus points for interesting storytelling if her frustration over Gregor being an undead zombie and no longer the entity she wanted to brutally kill, is also additionally gonna figure into her attitudes towards the Wights, Qyburn or whatever's gonna play a role in the LN "endgame".

 

 

Same with Varys and LF (and Sansa by extension) - how can predictions about their "endgame" be made, when it's not even clear what they're up to in the present, and what the extent of their knowledge about the supernatural events and threats is, or the extent of their worldly influence for that matter?


Generally speaking, I'd be disappointed if "the end game" is going to amount to the kind of scenarios people describe in this thread - some epic confrontation with the NK where all the main characters contribute their learned skills and destinies and whatnot to defeat the evil and then rebuild the realm, would be cool in some other book, in some other story;
I think this one's gonna do something more nuanced and unexpected at the end - like retain focus on inter-human conflicts, and the various counterproductive/malicious ways in which people generally react to catastrophes.

Some of the main "good" characters might start sabotaging the efforts against the WWs because they're blinded by their own agenda, and the war might end up being against humans attempting to join or use the WWs for their own purposes, rather than directly against the demons - something that would do justice to the story, themes and worldbuilding all the way until this point.


PS: The ending might be, I dunno... what if Westeros is reclaimed by the Walkers, they all have to emigrate back to Essos where they came from, and it'll be known that they only have 50 years until the Shadow from the East is gonna swallow them all and end everything? I dunno... probably the stupidest part of this post so far, but seriously ANYTHING but some conventional "band together to defeat evil and then rebuild the world" kind of ending would be more satisfying by comparison.

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21 hours ago, Pink Fat Rast said:

PS: The ending might be, I dunno... what if Westeros is reclaimed by the Walkers, they all have to emigrate back to Essos where they came from, and it'll be known that they only have 50 years until the Shadow from the East is gonna swallow them all and end everything? I dunno... probably the stupidest part of this post so far, but seriously ANYTHING but some conventional "band together to defeat evil and then rebuild the world" kind of ending would be more satisfying by comparison.

While I don't see this being the TV ending, nothing would thrill me more than a non-traditional ending like this.  I just don't see it though.

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TV's said to have a similar ending though - also nothing's preventing them from pulling a Lost and also cram the most plot into 2 short seasons, so it's possible at least.

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For those saying it would be pointless to kill Jon again because he died once and using that as logic for why he must or should survive series - LOL. There is plenty of reasons to kill Jon again. For one, he shouldn't be alive anyway. He was DEAD and the only reason he is still around because he was brought back by supernatural powers (which have not been explained how Melissandre managed this).

It may very well be, that, much like Gandalf in LoTR, he was brought back to fulfill a specific purpose (defeating the threat to humanity) and once that purpose is fulfilled, his time in the world will come to an end.

 

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My predictions of endgame roles:

Jon - Has a leading role in the battle against the white walkers, but dies heroically at the end of it. Probably kills the Nights King. DEAD

Daenerys - Will have a leading role in the battle against the white walkers. I'm pretty certain all 3 dragons will die, but I'm a bit uncertain about Dany's own fate. Ao many are predicting she'll die I think there's decent chance she may survive, but she won't be the same. I think she will be alive at end of series, but no longer in a leadership position. ALIVE

Bran - Will provide critical knowledge and his greenseeing and warning powers will hit their peak and be extremely potent weapons in final battle. Important player. I think Bran will lose his magical abilities at the end, but may very well get his legs back. ALIVE

Sansa -  I think she will be a major player in season 7 though in game of thrones, but will ultimately not be very much involved directly in final battle. I think she may have a role in leading some of the people South to safer areas when the WW attack. She will probably end series as Lady of Winterfell but also could get outplayed in the game and end up dead. The fate of both stark girls is hard to predict. UNSURE

Arya - I've never though that Arya's final destiny would be just as some kickass assassin. GRRM has always had more in store for her than that. There's plenty of descriptions of her personality and attributes in the books that point toward her becoming a leader or some kind (not a queen or ruler of country, but some smaller but also important leader role). There's also a very good chance she becomes one of the dragon riders in the final battle. I'm not certain it will be Dany-Jon-Tyrion like most seem to think. Arya is fearless and I think has the right personality to deal with the dragons also. I have even money chance of her living or dying. UNSURE

Brienne - ALIVE

Cersei - DEAD unless D&D decide to pull more crap with this way overused character in the show.

Jaime - Will die heroically, saving many lives. DEAD

Ser Davos - ALIVE

Littlefinger - DEAD

The Mountain - DEAD 

The Hound - I think his destiny will be linked to Arya and Sansa. He will either die protecting them, or will survive the series and serve one or both of them loyally. Could go either way, but he will more likely die. DEAD

Qyburn - DEAD

Sam - ALIVE

Gilly - ALIVE

Ellaria - DEAD

Sand Snakes - DEAD

Meera - ALIVE

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, Gaz0680 said:

My predictions of endgame roles:

Arya - I've never though that Arya's final destiny would be just as some kickass assassin. GRRM has always had more in store for her than that. There's plenty of descriptions of her personality and attributes in the books that point toward her becoming a leader or some kind (not a queen or ruler of country, but some smaller but also important leader role). There's also a very good chance she becomes one of the dragon riders in the final battle. I'm not certain it will be Dany-Jon-Tyrion like most seem to think. Arya is fearless and I think has the right personality to deal with the dragons also. I have even money chance of her living or dying. UNSURE

 

No one loves Arya more than me, but I don't see her as a "leader"...she does her own thing, she inspires some degree of loyalty among people she meets as a lot of people do help her...but I'm not sure that makes her a leader and not just a charismatic sympathetic person.  She has never rallied anyone like Dany or Jon has.  She has tried over and over to create a pack but she remains a lone wolf.  And we know how that ends.  

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Arya is driven by revenge against the evildoers of Westeros - particularly Lannisters and Freys, but I doubt she's too tribal about things, after all she's seen.

An interesting arc for her would be if some of the people she hates joined the alliance against the WWs, and she would start mucking things up by trying to kill them - leaders like Cersei, or any soldiers or military leaders who may have committed an atrocity in the past.
Melisandre is also a target of hers, obviously.


Furthermore, she's adopted the religion of Death, and been invited to train by the FM - on her part that could mean a certain tendency towards nihilism, like some part of her would prefer the idea of the WWs sweeping over everyone over returning to the "tyranny of evil men", this would stand in conflict with her longing for her family and the good times in Winterfell; 
she'd be irrational and hotheaded a lot, as has been the case in the past.

Then, Jaqen smirked when he essentially let a trained FM assassin go rogue, and when he recruited her he knew fully well about her desire for vengeance - and I assume something similar might happen in TWOW;
this could mean that at least a part of the FM cult saw a benefit in training at least one or several assassins who were angry at the world and would go rogue with their acquired skills - who knows what the FM think about death sweeping over everyone, or what their different subsections think if they have any, and how their plans for Arya figured into all of that.


 

So.... yeah. Everyone here complains about S6 being "too Hollywood", but then their ideas about "the endgame" always tend up to be "Hollywood stuff" like Arya will become a leader or assassinate the NK or be Jon's kings guard or something - and that even though the plot so far as set up for far more interesting developments, such as the example above and lots of other, better ones I'm sure.

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Posted (edited)

In the original manuscript of GRRM that he wrote to the publisher Jon, Danny, Tyrion, Bran and Arya survive the books. Since than a lot of the plots have been changed. So there is no guarantee that it will still be true. That being said, GRRM also said a lot of times, that he knows the fate of the main characters and has not changed them (until now). The minor characters such as Jamie, Cercei, Sam and co. may change over time. Sansa is a wild card (wild cards, get it??)  since she did not existed in the first draws of ASOIAF. She was only introduced later to cause drama in the nearly "perfect" Stark family. So who knows where her story ends. 

My predictions:

Jon: Defeats the WW. Learns about his true parentage and has to choose between being Lord of Winterfell and wardener of the north or rule as a King of Westeros. I am pretty sure he will choose the first option since it does not fit to his character to rule in KL. If we have learned anything, then that northeners should not leave the north.Ever. :).ALIVE

Danny: After defeating the WW together with Jon, she will have the oportunity to rule together with Jon in KL. But Jon will betray her, by choosing the north over her and KL (and probably because he is not as much into incest as the Targaryens). But in season 7 they will have sex (before both knows that they are relatives) and she will be pregnant. Thus she can rule without getting married and their son will be the prince who will follow Daenerys when she dies. ALIVE. 

Tyrion: Warden of the Westlands, Lord of Casterly Rock. 

Bran: The next Greenseer. Leaving humanity behind. Not involved in the upcomming "game of thrones". 

Arya: Will leave Westeros, as there is nothing there left for her there (like Frodo in LotR) and sailing in the far far west. ALIVE

Sansa: Dying either at the end of season 7 or at the beginning of season 8. In season 7 she may die by the hands of littlefinger who kills her for betraying him by not conspiring against Jon and Arya.  In season eight maybe by Cerceis wrath.  DEAD

Cersei: Killed by Euron, the valonquar, in season 8. DEAD

Euron:Killed by the WW or Dannys Dragons while he tries to controll them in season 8. DEAD.

Jamie: Killed by the WW in an honorable way by trying to protect the realm. DEAD.

Varis: Killed by his own "little Birds" who are in controll now by Qyburn in season 7 finale. DEAD.

Littlefinger: Killed by Arya Stark in season seven finale for killing either Sansa or because she will find out that he betrayd Ned and caused his death. DEAD.

Sam: Becomes a Maester. Helps Jon defeat the others by some books he finds in the citadel. ALIVE.

The Hound/Brotherhood: They alm die in the battle for Dawn. DEAD

Briene: I don't care. I hate this character. Every second of her either in the books or in the show is a waste of time. Worst character of the entire series. Hopefully off-screen, where it is only reported that her horse threw her off the cliffs because even he was tired of her sh*****.

 

 

Edited by Dragonsbone

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Posted (edited)

2 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

No one loves Arya more than me, but I don't see her as a "leader"...she does her own thing, she inspires some degree of loyalty among people she meets as a lot of people do help her...but I'm not sure that makes her a leader and not just a charismatic sympathetic person.  She has never rallied anyone like Dany or Jon has.  She has tried over and over to create a pack but she remains a lone wolf.  And we know how that ends.  

Arya has never been in a position where she can just *be* Arya Stark since escaping KL. So how can you say she doesn't have leadership qualities? I think she clearly does. Not to mention her direwolf displays exactly those traits as well. 

Edited by DutchArya

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What would be also interesting to see, is if that "you could've killed those more important guys and ended the war" part came up again and she would maybe face some kind of situation where she'd have to choose between the most satisfying action and the most beneficial overall - or, if it's a situation where she can go after the smaller fish later, remember to control her hotheadedness.


Also, she killed a NW deserter - while Gregor's men were attacking villagers for "rebelling".
Of course there's light years of difference between the two, for obvious reasons, but there's a common thread of killing people for switching sides.

Too interesting a "grey shade" to waste.

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5 hours ago, Dragonsbone said:

Briene: I don't care. I hate this character. Every second of her either in the books or in the show is a waste of time. Worst character of the entire series. Hopefully off-screen, where it is only reported that her horse threw her off the cliffs because even he was tired of her sh*****.

LMAO book Brienne isn't too terrible in AFFC, or at least her chapters aren't as tough to read (I liked Septon Meribald) but I hate her on the TV show and don't particularly care for her in the books.  It's not a popular opinion, but cheers.

7 hours ago, Pink Fat Rast said:

Then, Jaqen smirked when he essentially let a trained FM assassin go rogue, and when he recruited her he knew fully well about her desire for vengeance - and I assume something similar might happen in TWOW;
this could mean that at least a part of the FM cult saw a benefit in training at least one or several assassins who were angry at the world and would go rogue with their acquired skills - who knows what the FM think about death sweeping over everyone, or what their different subsections think if they have any, and how their plans for Arya figured into all of that.

So.... yeah. Everyone here complains about S6 being "too Hollywood", but then their ideas about "the endgame" always tend up to be "Hollywood stuff" like Arya will become a leader or assassinate the NK or be Jon's kings guard or something - and that even though the plot so far as set up for far more interesting developments, such as the example above and lots of other, better ones I'm sure.

I think some of the "Hollywood" endgame predictions are predicated on thinking that the show is "Hollywood" and therefore must have a "Hollywood" ending, probably dissimilar in some ways from the books.  For example, I see the Jaqen smirk as being something that D&D liked in the moment even if it made absolutely no sense based on his reaction to her killing Meryn Trant at the end of S5, or in the context of how the FM had been presented up till then.  And I have a lot more faith in D&D then most people here.  I hope you're correct that it's actually a sign of something more.

5 hours ago, DutchArya said:

Arya has never been in a position where she can just *be* Arya Stark since escaping KL. So how can you say she doesn't have leadership qualities? I think she clearly does. Not to mention her direwolf displays exactly those traits as well. 

Strong argument, though unfortunately Nymeria isn't shown on the show or even mentioned gathering her wolfpack.  I'm torn between Arya being frozen dead holding needle in the end, or being queen.  I can see her time with the FM being to learn service, and that this "lone wolf" who knows what it is to be hungry and hunted will become a servant queen for the people in the rebuilding of Westeros following the war for dawn.  I like Queen because it is an unexpected turn, especially after it was supposed to be Sansa's fate.

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Posted (edited)

41 minutes ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

I think some of the "Hollywood" endgame predictions are predicated on thinking that the show is "Hollywood" and therefore must have a "Hollywood" ending, probably dissimilar in some ways from the books.  For example, I see the Jaqen smirk as being something that D&D liked in the moment even if it made absolutely no sense based on his reaction to her killing Meryn Trant at the end of S5, or in the context of how the FM had been presented up till then.  And I have a lot more faith in D&D then most people here.  I hope you're correct that it's actually a sign of something more.

That's true, the chase ending in "No One" (along with Arya inexplicably walking around in broad daylight prior to that) is probably the most glaring, obvious example that whenever you expect some kind of great, intriguing pay-off to a plotline, the show is entirely capable of just serving you schlock instead.

Apparently a lot of people on reddit "lost faith in the show" after it aired, and I believe it's the only episode in the series to have received sub-par ratings based on just the quality and not moral outrage over rape.


So... yeah, a conventional/schlock finale is possible, I wouldn't bet on something more interesting, but there are still reasons to believe it's not unlikely:
-S6 has been noticed by many to have "given the viewers what they wanted" - however, S5 "almost" ended Dorne on an easy happy end and then everything went to shite; and Benioff hinted that Jon's triumphant KitN moment should make audiences feel uneasy based on how things went the last time that happened.
So the idea that this season's unusual amount of "Hollywood idealism" is just putting the viewers at ease to serve them something really grim down the line, is much more than just unfounded wishful thinking, though it's far from a guarantee as well.

-For all the "schlock" in the Waif sequence, the last Jaqen shot is consistent with the way he presented himself when he gave her the coin: when she was talking about her revenge plans and he seemed to be kind of appoving of that rather than immediately going "no you have to let go of everything if you want to join us".
Could've just been a recruitment tactic, or it could mean his lessons during S5-6 weren't entirely honest - of course that wouldn't justify why Arya wasn't protesting based on their dialogue from S2.



PS:
There's also confusion with the whole identity thing:
-in S2, he changed his face, implying that the "Jaqen" personality would never appear again and he had assumed another one
-in S5, he appears with the Jaqen face again, but keeps telling her that it's all an illusion and there actually is no Jaqen - until, finally, this is confirmed when one of them dies and the Waif just becomes the next Jaqen
-in S6, all that seemingly disappears and Jaqen and Waif are individuals again

The whole "faith in the writers" aside, is it even possible at this point to resolve all these contradictions and blow the minds of the audiences with a really satisfying pay-off (that would then lead into some kind of 3rd act presumably)?

Wouldn't be too surprised if it wasn't though ; )

Edited by Pink Fat Rast

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+, they're always saying how the destination is the same as the books but the journey there is different - so unless this "destination" really only refers to like the last half chapter of epilogue, I'd figure if the 3rd act in the book isn't going to be avengers-assemble-against-the-NK, and neither is it gonna be in the show.

Eh, makes sense to me at least

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Posted (edited)

12 hours ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

LMAO book Brienne isn't too terrible in AFFC, or at least her chapters aren't as tough to read (I liked Septon Meribald) but I hate her on the TV show and don't particularly care for her in the books.  It's not a popular opinion, but cheers.

Cheers :D.

But I have to disagree with you. I actually hate Book-Brienne even more. So awfully boring and one-dimensional.  Dont get me started on book-Brienne. I could do a whole "Everything wrong with Brienne thread" :D

Edited by Dragonsbone

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