Lucius Lovejoy

Endgame roles for all major characters (TV only)

108 posts in this topic

48 minutes ago, Pink Fat Rast said:

It's a bit hard to tell what Sansa's arc is supposed to be at this point - in the show, that is.

The pattern so far seems to be:
-starts with naive, idealistic notions of glamorous royalty / court life - is disillusioned by getting to live in a decadent one instead. Executed well.
-adopts the naive notion that a few successful lies and sporting a black swan personality makes her a master manipulator who can crush the Boltons from within - turns out she was completely dependent on LF. Executed.. yeah.

So both times a certain fantasy gets crushed.
Now she's apparently living out the fantasy of being a worshipped lady commanding armies to victory - and she thinks she may have some control over LF now that he revealed his cards / apologized to her or something.

So maybe that's another "genre fantasy" that'll get crushed and finally turn her into a pragmatist or someone seeking power that isn't dependent on armies or (male) protectors (except that's also Arya's thing, in a different form);
or, she's already a cynical pragmatist?


Started out as a bit of an asshole, but stopped being asshole at the end of S1 and hasn't been since.
Was also rather morally callous when she had no problem with Joffrey cutting Mycah (kind of comparable to Daenerys in relation to Drogo maybe) - now is morally "hardened", and maybe even has a reckless solipsistic streak when it comes to getting her justice?


So I'm not sure what really "should" happen next or at the end - though I know that sentencing LF to death over some bullshite is one of the things that shouldn't :D

If I had to guess at this moment, I'd say endgame Lady of Winterfell or dead.

I don't see many other paths for her at this point. Even ending up as Lady of the Vale and marrying Robin Arryn seems farfetched in the show; TV Sweetrobin doesn't care about Sansa and only agreed to send soldiers because she was his cousin and he felt obligated to do so.

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2 hours ago, Newstar said:

The problem is that the scene with Tyrion and the dragons was preceded by Tyrion going out of his way to point out that the dragons are sufficiently intelligent that they don't attack people who do not pose a threat. It was almost as if the writers were making sure the audience didn't read anything into the dragons not eating Tyrion.

Missandei presumably visited them in the catacombs or before that. It was convinient so they can join magically Dany and Drogon during Battle of Meereen. Maybe this was the purpose for it. Still wonder how will Tyrion impact the war or maybe his role is needed after it?

Quote

I guess it depends on whether or not GRRM wants to continue the Targ legacy in the form of a baby Targ heir, or get rid of the Targs for good. If there is a baby, though, that baby will probably survive and grow up to be the next king or queen.

I guess, their sex and the whole prophecy and rumoura about it sounds like baby will be the result. Then one of bith could die in theory but do not wish this. George really likes them, so House on the bring of being extinct, only known Targaryen thinks she won't have a living children, Jon being hidden Targaryen. They have to think of future and George even let Rhaegar and Lyanna to have a son. Future could be as important as the war itself and for their legacy and work to just vanish would be a shame.

1 hour ago, Pink Fat Rast said:

It's a bit hard to tell what Sansa's arc is supposed to be at this point - in the show, that is.

The pattern so far seems to be:
-starts with naive, idealistic notions of glamorous royalty / court life - is disillusioned by getting to live in a decadent one instead. Executed well.
-adopts the naive notion that a few successful lies and sporting a black swan personality makes her a master manipulator who can crush the Boltons from within - turns out she was completely dependent on LF. Executed.. yeah.

So both times a certain fantasy gets crushed.
Now she's apparently living out the fantasy of being a worshipped lady commanding armies to victory - and she thinks she may have some control over LF now that he revealed his cards / apologized to her or something.

So maybe that's another "genre fantasy" that'll get crushed and finally turn her into a pragmatist or someone seeking power that isn't dependent on armies or (male) protectors (except that's also Arya's thing, in a different form);
or, she's already a cynical pragmatist?


Started out as a bit of an asshole, but stopped being asshole at the end of S1 and hasn't been since.
Was also rather morally callous when she had no problem with Joffrey cutting Mycah (kind of comparable to Daenerys in relation to Drogo maybe) - now is morally "hardened", and maybe even has a reckless solipsistic streak when it comes to getting her justice?


So I'm not sure what really "should" happen next or at the end - though I know that sentencing LF to death over some bullshite is one of the things that shouldn't :D

Her arc has gone this way of being naive, manipulated and then to be a sarcastic or a cynical pragmatic. Her future seems to me to be in the North because she always wanted out of there. Although, I don't know about marriages considering her past experiences with this.

Sentencing LF to death is not a bad but we need more context for it. Balish fucked up Starks for a long time and Sansa's arc was leading up to slaying a giant in the snowy castle. That snowy castle could be Winterfell.

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She wanted out of WF at first, but after everything that's happened her ending up in WF would no longer be "dramatic irony", it'd be a straightforward happy ending.

I was trying to contemplate what the most "pay-offey" 3rd act would be for her, i.e. one that would give narrative purpose to what's come before and hopefully even patch up the mess from S5 - not so much "what's the most likely based on the hints".


Sure, "LF execution" would depend on context, but I'm still hoping that was a plant and won't happen :D

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On Sat Apr 08 2017 at 6:38 AM, Dragonsbone said:

Cheers :D.

But I have to disagree with you. I actually hate Book-Brienne even more. So awfully boring and one-dimensional.  Dont get me started on book-Brienne. I could do a whole "Everything wrong with Brienne thread" :D

Lol I thought book Brienne was less arrogant, presumptuous, and single minded - but maybe that's because we were in her head and got to hear her admit that Jaime was a better fighter.  Also I liked her scenes with Septon Meribald and book Podrick.  I definitely would love for you to start a Brienne hate thread (though I can't imagine the moderators would).

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Really great stuff here reading through - thanks @Lord Friendzone, @Newstar, @DutchArya, @Pink Fat Rast, @Adam_Up_Bxtch and others.  Unfortunately Windows 10 crapped out on me so I'm responding on my phone making it tough to read/quote.  I think the point has been clearly made and I agree that the show bludgeons you with a sledgehammer when it wants to foresbadow something important, however a lot of it happens in the same season (like with Shireen) so I don't think it necessarily precludes Arya from becoming queen.  I really like the idea of Gendry and Davos - two men from Flea Bottom - rising to King and Hand, and with Arya you finally have the Baratheon/Stark pairing and as discussed Arya fulfills pretty much all of what book Varys describes about book Aegon - only her education was natural and not some lab experiment.  I agree the mode of her leaving the FM will be different in the books.

I'm not sure how SanSan could be developed on the show because Sansa's arc does seem to be leading elsewhere ("virgin queen" Elizabeth I style) but Sandor could conceivably die protecting her.  I like the idea of him being involved in turning Arya from being a killing machine to a more honorable force for good.  With the way he left things with the BwB I am not sure if he is same old Sandor or kinder, gentler Sandor, but if its the latter then him helping Arya get balanced might be nice.

As for Sansa ordering LF executed and Arya being her headsman I do not like it all - the one who sentences should swing the blade.  Sansa could hang LF herself (since I couldn't imagine either her or Arya beheading him).  But I don't think this act of service (Valar Doehaeris) to Sansa disqualifies Arya from being queen or in some other position of authority over Sansa in the future.

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Posted (edited)

51 minutes ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

Lol I thought book Brienne was less arrogant, presumptuous, and single minded - but maybe that's because we were in her head and got to hear her admit that Jaime was a better fighter.  Also I liked her scenes with Septon Meribald and book Podrick.  I definitely would love for you to start a Brienne hate thread (though I can't imagine the moderators would).

There's no question that TV Brienne is a tough customer who's proud of her skills and who's not shy about it, but she's also about 10 years older than Book Brienne. It makes sense that an older Brienne would be more confident, a better fighter than her book equivalent, and ultimately more brutal, which is why TV Brienne kills people without thinking about it, and why it's such a big deal when Brienne makes her first kill. TV Brienne has also been putting up with bullshit from men about her looks and her fighting skills for 10 years longer than Book Brienne has, so it makes sense that she'd be a lot more cynical, a lot more bitter, and a lot more hostile than Book Brienne.

 

15 minutes ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

As for Sansa ordering LF executed and Arya being her headsman I do not like it all - the one who sentences should swing the blade.  Sansa could hang LF herself (since I couldn't imagine either her or Arya beheading him).  But I don't think this act of service (Valar Doehaeris) to Sansa disqualifies Arya from being queen or in some other position of authority over Sansa in the future.

Well, it doesn't disqualify her--she could always change her mind about Sansa's fitness to lead, I guess--but it does that she'll be playing second fiddle to Sansa for the foreseeable future, and that's a situation that's unlikely to change unless Sansa dies. Nor would Arya ever challenge Jon's authority as KITN. If Jon and Sansa die, of course, all bets are off, but I think they would have to die for her to become a leader in her own right, since she has accepted their authority.

I think this is the reason why a lot of diehard Arya fans want Sansa dead: Arya won't be able to shine on her own and to take her place as a Stark leader unless Sansa is dead. 

Edited by Newstar

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10 minutes ago, Winter's Cold said:

How can Sansa remain Lady of Winterfell if Bran doesn't die?

Convinient way would be Bran not wanting Lord of Winterfell status and concentrate on being 3ER.

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Posted (edited)

52 minutes ago, Winter's Cold said:

How can Sansa remain Lady of Winterfell if Bran doesn't die?

He is the rightful heir and I think he will be Lord of Winterfell.

but if he remains single(because of his possible inability) then Sansa could remain Lady of Winterfell.

 

Edited by winter daughter

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Bran's gonna run the 7 Kingdoms - INTO THE GROUND, the way things developed recently; he needs to go.

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8 minutes ago, Winter's Cold said:

How can Sansa remain Lady of Winterfell if Bran doesn't die?

I guess he's a tree forever. And apparently he can't be a lord because he's crippled and to magical. Seriously though, if anyone is going to be lord/lady of Winterfell by the end, it's Bran. When it is all over, it's not like he's going to be like "I guess I'll go back to my lonely cage now":P 

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Posted (edited)

Quote

The Book Tyrells will be wiped out. And so on

Disagree! Marge will die, but I don't see why her brothers must. Loras wasn't there because he just had to die, but because they wanted to use his sexuality, most likely. Why would it be important to wipe out the Tyrells? I think Loras might join the fight against the WW. He could die there, but that still doesn't mean his brothers have to. Anyways that's books only.

 

My predictions:

  1. Jon Snow = LIVES Maybe at Dragonstone? Maybe stay KITN? King's Landing really doesn't suit him.
  2. Daenerys = DIES dramatically
  3. Tyrion = LIVES Casterly Rock, I agree
  4. Sansa = LIVES probably, is a lady somewhere, possibly Casterly Rock with Tyrion?
  5. Arya & Gendry = LIVE Not sure Gendry is still a part of this, but sure they are cute. Could just be King and Queen of the Stormlands. Brienne is head of their guard.
  6. Bran LIVES I think he continues to be 3ER. He is not of this world IMO
  7. Jaime = DIES in Brienne's arms
  8. Cersei = DIEEEEEEES most likely by gold hand
  9. Davos = DIES, heroically
  10. Littlefinger = DIES
  11. Varys = I got nothing.
  12. Theon = LIVES King of the Iron Islands
  13. Yara = DIES Killed by Euron in a disgusting way
  14. Brienne = LIVES
  15. Podrick = LIVES
  16. Bronn = DIES fighting the WW since we need cannon fodder anyway
  17. Sam Tarly & Gilly = LIVE happily ever after
  18. The Hound = DIES heroically, agreed
  19. Melisandre = DIEEEEES Burn, witch, burn
  20. Jorah Mormont = Idk Survives the greyscale but could be killed by White Walkers.
  21. Ellaria & Sand Snakes = DIE in the war between humans at any case
  22. Euron Greyjoy = DIES Killed by Theon
Edited by ftheking

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3 hours ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

As for Sansa ordering LF executed and Arya being her headsman I do not like it all

Gotta agree. Although, I'm bias as hell because i'm a big LF fan and I wanna see all his work lead to something for him that doesn't involve his death. No matter how you may feel about him you gotta admit he's put in work to get where he's gotten. I wanna see some bad guys survive, except the Sand Snakes & Ellaria Sand just killed them all please.

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Posted (edited)

3 hours ago, Lord Friendzone said:

Convinient way would be Bran not wanting Lord of Winterfell status and concentrate on being 3ER.

Bingo.

54 minutes ago, Adam_Up_Bxtch said:

Gotta agree. Although, I'm bias as hell because i'm a big LF fan and I wanna see all his work lead to something for him that doesn't involve his death. No matter how you may feel about him you gotta admit he's put in work to get where he's gotten. 

I think Littlefinger has always been doomed, and if he has to meet his end, it had better be at the hands of the Starks. Sansa should do it herself, though.

Quote

Why would it be important to wipe out the Tyrells?

So that the Tarlys can end up with the Reach? The Tyrells originally came to power after the Gardeners, who had ruled the Reach for many years, were wiped out. Makes sense that the same would eventually happen to them.

Edited by Newstar

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1 hour ago, ftheking said:

Disagree! Marge will die, but I don't see why her brothers must. Loras wasn't there because he just had to die, but because they wanted to use his sexuality, most likely. Why would it be important to wipe out the Tyrells? I think Loras might join the fight against the WW. He could die there, but that still doesn't mean his brothers have to. Anyways that's books only.

 

My predictions:

  1. Jon Snow = LIVES Maybe at Dragonstone? Maybe stay KITN? King's Landing really doesn't suit him.
  2. Daenerys = DIES dramatically
  3. Tyrion = LIVES Casterly Rock, I agree
  4. Sansa = LIVES probably, is a lady somewhere, possibly Casterly Rock with Tyrion?
  5. Arya & Gendry = LIVE Not sure Gendry is still a part of this, but sure they are cute. Could just be King and Queen of the Stormlands. Brienne is head of their guard.
  6. Bran LIVES I think he continues to be 3ER. He is not of this world IMO
  7. Jaime = DIES in Brienne's arms
  8. Cersei = DIEEEEEEES most likely by gold hand
  9. Davos = DIES, heroically
  10. Littlefinger = DIES
  11. Varys = I got nothing.
  12. Theon = LIVES King of the Iron Islands
  13. Yara = DIES Killed by Euron in a disgusting way
  14. Brienne = LIVES
  15. Podrick = LIVES
  16. Bronn = DIES fighting the WW since we need cannon fodder anyway
  17. Sam Tarly & Gilly = LIVE happily ever after
  18. The Hound = DIES heroically, agreed
  19. Melisandre = DIEEEEES Burn, witch, burn
  20. Jorah Mormont = Idk Survives the greyscale but could be killed by White Walkers.
  21. Ellaria & Sand Snakes = DIE in the war between humans at any case
  22. Euron Greyjoy = DIES Killed by Theon

Looks like you're expecting Kings Landing and the Iron Throne to be destroyed and the seven kingdoms to go back as the seven kingdoms.  Is that correct?  Do you think Jon/Dany have an heir?

@Adam_Up_Bxtch yeah if LF has to die I'd prefer it to be something of an "oh shit, I didn't plan for that" type moment - like at the hands of a White Walker.  I secretly kind of hope he gets what he wants and deflowers Sansa, but that's really only because I loved Aiden Gillen as Mayor Carcetti on "The Wire."

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There are really two LF images around, sometimes based on different scenes:

-the lecherous, treasonous liar and schemer who betrays the good characters and does everything for petty, contemptible reasons (i.e. a Iago type)
-the enigmatic shadowy mastermind, who can know almost everything that's going on, is almost several steps ahead, and strives towards some kind of epic end goal for not entirely understood reasons.


This 2nd image is based on scenes like the chaos speech (which almost seemed to have metaphysical overtones), the cryptic "chessmaster exchanges" with Varys, and some others.


So the 1st Littlefinger would deserve a death like the one from the leaks - he's made into a position where he's a possible future husband of the queen, and now his "endgame" is gonna be some final petty intrigue between the related throne contenders, but the Starks aren't having any of it and finally the creepy bastard gets his! 

For the 2nd Littlefinger, that would be an immensely disappointing "end game" to play, and way to go - for reasons that probably don't need to be further explained.

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3 hours ago, ftheking said:

Disagree! Marge will die, but I don't see why her brothers must. Loras wasn't there because he just had to die, but because they wanted to use his sexuality, most likely. Why would it be important to wipe out the Tyrells? I think Loras might join the fight against the WW. He could die there, but that still doesn't mean his brothers have to. Anyways that's books only.

 

My predictions:

  1. Jon Snow = LIVES Maybe at Dragonstone? Maybe stay KITN? King's Landing really doesn't suit him.
  2. Daenerys = DIES dramatically
  3. Tyrion = LIVES Casterly Rock, I agree
  4. Sansa = LIVES probably, is a lady somewhere, possibly Casterly Rock with Tyrion?
  5. Arya & Gendry = LIVE Not sure Gendry is still a part of this, but sure they are cute. Could just be King and Queen of the Stormlands. Brienne is head of their guard.
  6. Bran LIVES I think he continues to be 3ER. He is not of this world IMO
  7. Jaime = DIES in Brienne's arms
  8. Cersei = DIEEEEEEES most likely by gold hand
  9. Davos = DIES, heroically
  10. Littlefinger = DIES
  11. Varys = I got nothing.
  12. Theon = LIVES King of the Iron Islands
  13. Yara = DIES Killed by Euron in a disgusting way
  14. Brienne = LIVES
  15. Podrick = LIVES
  16. Bronn = DIES fighting the WW since we need cannon fodder anyway
  17. Sam Tarly & Gilly = LIVE happily ever after
  18. The Hound = DIES heroically, agreed
  19. Melisandre = DIEEEEES Burn, witch, burn
  20. Jorah Mormont = Idk Survives the greyscale but could be killed by White Walkers.
  21. Ellaria & Sand Snakes = DIE in the war between humans at any case
  22. Euron Greyjoy = DIES Killed by Theon

Predictable everything, I do not think that sansa will live in the family home that made her suffer so much, the lannister, her place is in winterfell or somewhere in the north.Arya and gendry together as everyone thinks since they had something of Chemistry in the series but forget that Gendry is (besides being a bastard) a very secondary character in the GRRM book, anyway.

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Posted (edited)

The bastard Gendry as king in the end?. Please be a very secondary character in the book as for GRRM to put him on the iron throne.

Edited by The Prince who was not pro

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3 hours ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

Looks like you're expecting Kings Landing and the Iron Throne to be destroyed and the seven kingdoms to go back as the seven kingdoms.  Is that correct?  Do you think Jon/Dany have an heir?

I always though the iron throne should be melted, it seems like an evil symbol, yeah. Now we can expect it's needed for Valyrian steel weapons. So seven kingdoms is probably the best way to go and  we already seem to be headed there with the king in the north and the Iron Islands... I don't hope King's Landing will be destroyed completely. I hate to wish misfortune on fictional smallfolk and there is something cool about a city named King's Landing, although it's glory days lie in the past.

I'm not really comfortable with the Jon/Dany ship, so I don't want to think much about it... Anyway Dany is not able to have children anymore, magical healing would be required. Of course Jorah might find a superpowerful red priest on his greyscale quest and hook Dany - and Theon - up!

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1 hour ago, The Prince who was not pro said:

Predictable everything, I do not think that sansa will live in the family home that made her suffer so much, the lannister, her place is in winterfell or somewhere in the north.Arya and gendry together as everyone thinks since they had something of Chemistry in the series but forget that Gendry is (besides being a bastard) a very secondary character in the GRRM book, anyway.

I think GRRM came up with Arya's ending long before he'd dreamed up Gendry, so I'd be surprised if it played out that way in the books at least. 

I think Arya and Gendry ending up together could work. I don't think the end of GOT is going to be like the end of the Harry Potter books where everyone is paired off, though. If Arya does sail into the sunset at the end of GOT, though, maybe Gendry can go with her.

On the "west of Westeros" theory...I forgot to mention it before, but I believe one of the GOT writers said that Season 4 foreshadows a lot about the ending of the show (or words to that effect). Even though the show has usually ended with "ice" or "fire" (Jon and Dany's storylines), Season 4 is the only season to date that deviated from the pattern. Season 4 ended with Arya sailing off to Braavos. Could GOT end the same way, with Arya sailing off to parts unknown?

Season 4 was the first season the writers wrote with knowledge of major plot points, character relationships, etc. past ADWD, so it makes sense that the writers would load it up with foreshadowing of the ending. Just thinking it through, though, I can't think of that many things in Season 4 that jumped out at me as potentially significant foreshadowing for the ending, other than Arya's ending. There is this bit, though, from Jojen, Bran and Meera's conversation in Season 4 while they're captives:

Jojen (looking around): This...this isn't the end...not for you...not yet.

Meera: How will we know the end?

Jojen (looks at his hand, which in his vision is on fire): You'll know.

I think most fans interpreted this as Jojen knowing that he'd get blown up by a firebomb in 4x10, but Meera had already killed him by the time the firebomb blew up his body. Could this be a reference to Bran and/or Meera's deaths by fire?

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