Lucius Lovejoy

Endgame roles for all major characters (TV only)

195 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

8 hours ago, Lord Friendzone said:

Convinient way would be Bran not wanting Lord of Winterfell status and concentrate on being 3ER.

Maybe after the events of the ending there will be no need for Bran to be a a 3EC....Sansa being the Lady bc Bran doesn't want doesn't make sense. It's not what they want that matters. It's their duty as Starks.

Edited by Meera of Tarth

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Posted (edited)

49 minutes ago, Newstar said:

I think GRRM came up with Arya's ending long before he'd dreamed up Gendry, so I'd be surprised if it played out that way in the books at least. 

I think Arya and Gendry ending up together could work. I don't think the end of GOT is going to be like the end of the Harry Potter books where everyone is paired off, though. If Arya does sail into the sunset at the end of GOT, though, maybe Gendry can go with her.

On the "west of Westeros" theory...I forgot to mention it before, but I believe one of the GOT writers said that Season 4 foreshadows a lot about the ending of the show (or words to that effect). Even though the show has usually ended with "ice" or "fire" (Jon and Dany's storylines), Season 4 is the only season to date that deviated from the pattern. Season 4 ended with Arya sailing off to Braavos. Could GOT end the same way, with Arya sailing off to parts unknown?

Arya sailing west of Westeros as the ending would be very interesting IMO, and would fit her nature. But I don't remember that anyone had said that of s4 being foreshadowing of the ending. 

Quote

Season 4 was the first season the writers wrote with knowledge of major plot points, character relationships, etc. past ADWD, so it makes sense that the writers would load it up with foreshadowing of the ending. Just thinking it through, though, I can't think of that many things in Season 4 that jumped out at me as potentially significant foreshadowing for the ending, other than Arya's ending. There is this bit, though, from Jojen, Bran and Meera's conversation in Season 4 while they're captives:

Jojen (looking around): This...this isn't the end...not for you...not yet.

Meera: How will we know the end?

Jojen (looks at his hand, which in his vision is on fire): You'll know.

I think most fans interpreted this as Jojen knowing that he'd get blown up by a firebomb in 4x10, but Meera had already killed him by the time the firebomb blew up his body. Could this be a reference to Bran and/or Meera's deaths by fire?

Actually, they know the ending from the start (this article is from 2011):

"We've talked through what the final episode, the final season will be."

George has proven through the discussions we've had that he's always known in the rough, broad strokes where this is going to end up," Weiss says."And we think it's going to end up in a way that is uniquely satisfying."

source: http://www.tvguide.com/news/game-thrones-lost-1031645/

And also:

We've been teeing up stuff all the time, since season one. We've known answers to questions since season one, the fates of certain characters. We know we can finish the story, so we're certainly writing with that in mind.

source: http://www.vulture.com/2015/04/game-of-thrones-showrunners-on-changes-from-the-books.html

So, while it's true that the exact ending was known later, they knew almost everything from the start, the main points.

As for Jojen/Meera, well, it could mean that Meera and Bran end tragically with fire?) but I don't think it's the case. Jojen is speaking in general terms, he also says, not you (referring as Bran, not dying), and then, when Meera asks him he says "you'll know" while he is actually experiencing the "I know" magical feeling. And while he says, "not yet" to Bran, it could mean he could die being old. He also says "not you"..that scene has a meaning/foreshadowing for Jojen only IMHO.

And also, the fact there is fire in Jojen's magical vision, doesn't mean he'll die with fire. Fire it's a metaphore for dying in general, not the firebomb of a wight....that would be too direct.

Edited by Meera of Tarth

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Wait, what's supposed to be "west of Westeros" again? I know GRRM has created something there that he's never gonna release or something, but has anyone in-universe actually talked about it at any point?

Why would Arya wanna go sail there all of a sudden? What if it's like ocean 10 times the width of Essos?

Maybe she'll discover Ymaerycos :D

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About the "pulling a Lost" thing, that's interesting because so far the WW origin story reminds me a lot of "fell into light cave".

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Arya sailing west of Westeros as the ending would be very interesting IMO, and would fit her nature. But I don't remember that anyone had said that of s4 being foreshadowing of the ending. (...)

So, while it's true that the exact ending was known later, they knew almost everything from the start, the main points.

They didn't know everything from the start, because they needed to sit GRRM down for a big meeting in April 2013 where they went through post-ADWD material storyline by storyline, character by character, and even then GRRM was pretty candid with them about not even knowing what he was going to do with certain characters and certain storylines. That meeting wouldn't have been necessary if they'd received a broad outline earlier and knew the broad strokes all along.

I can't find the Season 4 quote, but if I do, I'll post it to the thread.

 

Quote

As for Jojen/Meera, well, it could mean that Meera and Bran end tragically with fire?) but I don't think it's the case.

Yeah, it could be interpreted either way. If Season 4 is imbued with deeper endgame meaning, though, that might be an example.

 

1 hour ago, Pink Fat Rast said:

Wait, what's supposed to be "west of Westeros" again? I know GRRM has created something there that he's never gonna release or something, but has anyone in-universe actually talked about it at any point?

In ASOIAF, yes. In GOT, no.

In the world of ASOIAF, "west of Westeros" is the Sunset Sea, which is supposed to be impassable, and nobody knows what lies beyond it. A few have set out to cross it, including a previous KITN (Brandon the Shipwright), but none have ever returned. Rhaenys wanted to fly on her dragon to explore beyond the Sunset Sea, but she died before she got a chance. In AFFC, one of the kingsmoot contenders (Gylbert Farwynd) promised to lead the Ironborn to a land beyond the Sunset Sea, but no one believed him, for obvious reasons.

As for why Arya would want to sail there all of a sudden? In ASOIAF, at least, she dreamed of exploring the world in AGOT, and she later very briefly toyed with the idea of becoming part of an itinerant outlaw band like Wenda the White Fawn (although she immediately dismissed the idea as a dumb pipe dream of the kind Sansa might have). Maybe once everything's settled, when Jon is king (I assume, anyway) and the WW threat has been resolved, she'll want to go exploring again. Some fans think that Arya has gone through so many traumatic experiences in her travels that she'll be happy to have a quiet life in Winterfell with her remaining "pack," but I think Arya would get restless before long. 

 

1 hour ago, Pink Fat Rast said:

About the "pulling a Lost" thing, that's interesting because so far the WW origin story reminds me a lot of "fell into light cave".

GRRM has gone on record about how much he hated the LOST ending. Of course, he also went on record about how much he hated Tolkien resurrecting Gandalf while intending to resurrect Jon, so...

Edited by Newstar

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Posted (edited)

11 minutes ago, Newstar said:

They didn't know everything from the start, because they needed to sit GRRM down for a big meeting in April 2013 where they went through post-ADWD material storyline by storyline, character by character, and even then GRRM was pretty candid with them about not even knowing what he was going to do with certain characters and certain storylines. That meeting wouldn't have been necessary if they'd received a broad outline earlier and knew the broad strokes all along.

Yes, but they knew the ending and the fates of certain characters since season 1. Of course, not the fates of all the characters, but the ones of the characters that would be alive in the ending, because they knew the ending,  knowing what happens to them. The article I posted mentions "Broad strokes". The way I see it, it's like for instance, they know:

eg: Jon fights against the NK, then marries (or not) and ends in the iron throne. Soin s1 they might not know how that happens (the last episodes of s8), how is that battle like, but they already know the impact of the ending on that character and his fate. Same for all the other main characters.

Quote

I can't find the Season 4 quote, but if I do, I'll post it to the thread.

 

Fine, thanks. I'm also interested in that.

Edited by Meera of Tarth

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1 hour ago, Newstar said:

In ASOIAF, yes. In GOT, no.

In the world of ASOIAF, "west of Westeros" is the Sunset Sea, which is supposed to be impassable, and nobody knows what lies beyond it. A few have set out to cross it, including a previous KITN (Brandon the Shipwright), but none have ever returned. Rhaenys wanted to fly on her dragon to explore beyond the Sunset Sea, but she died before she got a chance. In AFFC, one of the kingsmoot contenders (Gylbert Farwynd) promised to lead the Ironborn to a land beyond the Sunset Sea, but no one believed him, for obvious reasons.

As for why Arya would want to sail there all of a sudden? In ASOIAF, at least, she dreamed of exploring the world in AGOT, and she later very briefly toyed with the idea of becoming part of an itinerant outlaw band like Wenda the White Fawn (although she immediately dismissed the idea as a dumb pipe dream of the kind Sansa might have). Maybe once everything's settled, when Jon is king (I assume, anyway) and the WW threat has been resolved, she'll want to go exploring again. Some fans think that Arya has gone through so many traumatic experiences in her travels that she'll be happy to have a quiet life in Winterfell with her remaining "pack," but I think Arya would get restless before long. 

Woah, totally missed all that...

Hm, well if this western edge of the map is this dangerous and mysterious, and something is planned for it (i.e. a bit more than the Frontier in Trek) then maybe it won't just be someone like Arya sailing off to "explore" it?

Maybe she'll get another direction from someone like H'gar just like in S4, which will be the "key" to surviving and passing through whatever there is - or she'll go seeking out Death or something.
But, if you can just explore that area with a Dragon unless you happen to slip on a bathtub before you get to - why should Arya go do it on a sailboat?


Maybe it'll somehow figure into things later - a connection with the Deep Ones, maybe?
 

1 hour ago, Newstar said:

GRRM has gone on record about how much he hated the LOST ending. Of course, he also went on record about how much he hated Tolkien resurrecting Gandalf while intending to resurrect Jon, so...

Well, I'm sure it'll have more meat to it than in the show, if that's what's gonna happen in the first place - in the show it was like 2 scenes that were 1min each; a bit insufficient... just like with smokey.

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6 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Sansa being the Lady bc Bran doesn't want doesn't make sense. It's not what they want that matters. It's their duty as Starks.

No, passing something over to a sibling is completely acceptable. You are falling for Stannis' bs, like wanting all the power for yourself is being a dutiful and responsible person. People just always want the power when they can, so this seldom happens. Jaime did it, of course. Theon does it right now. Lack of greed itsn't suppossed to be one of their character flaws.

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10 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Maybe after the events of the ending there will be no need for Bran to be a a 3EC....Sansa being the Lady bc Bran doesn't want doesn't make sense. It's not what they want that matters. It's their duty as Starks.

For now as for Sansa and Bran reunion, she might continue to be Lady of Winterfell, with Bran concentrating on the great war as much as Jon. These two characters knows best abour what's coming fo them, both are unselfish and have a bigger picture in mind, Bran literally as he has all the knowledge that will be the key.

Bran not wanting Lord of Winterfell status is plausible and he could let Sansa do it. You might not like, I might not like it but it's very likely going to be this way. Bran might not be tied to the tree forever but he'll be 3ER forever. In my opinion he'll outlive everyone and gather all the knowledge. He has responsibility in this regar, his journey, future is meant to be tied to it but that does not mean he'll be in the cave. That's what 3ER/Bloodraven said to him.

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Posted (edited)

4 hours ago, Lord Friendzone said:

For now as for Sansa and Bran reunion, she might continue to be Lady of Winterfell, with Bran concentrating on the great war as much as Jon. These two characters knows best abour what's coming fo them, both are unselfish and have a bigger picture in mind, Bran literally as he has all the knowledge that will be the key.

Bran not wanting Lord of Winterfell status is plausible and he could let Sansa do it. You might not like, I might not like it but it's very likely going to be this way. Bran might not be tied to the tree forever but he'll be 3ER forever. In my opinion he'll outlive everyone and gather all the knowledge. He has responsibility in this regar, his journey, future is meant to be tied to it but that does not mean he'll be in the cave. That's what 3ER/Bloodraven said to him.

While I think D&D forgetting about Bran's claim likely has more to do with keeping Sansa in a position of power for her plot purposes than about Bran's character arc, I think Winterfell is going to look like small potatoes to Bran now that he's an omniscient demigod. There is some speculation that magic will leave the world altogether as part of the defeat of the WW, and that Bran will lose his powers, in which case he may very well want to resume being lord of Winterfell down the line, but I guess we'll see.

I'm not quite sure what TV Sansa will do if survives to the end but she isn't the endgame ruler of Winterfell. Endgame queen is very unlikely. It seems highly unlikely that she'll end up with Tyrion, so Casterly Rock is also out. Willas Tyrell doesn't exist in the show universe, and the show Tyrells seem pretty much doomed in any event. Edmure is still alive and kicking and likely to end up with Riverrun.

Frankly, there doesn't seem to be much else left for her other than Winterfell. Even ending up as Lady of the Vale seems like a stretch at this point, given her short stay there in the show and her lack of relationship with the only heir in the show universe (Robin Arryn).

Speaking of unlikely endgames, I'm not sure how Tyrion is supposed to start up his winery if he's Lord of Casterly Rock and all the wineries are in the Reach.

Edited by Newstar

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On 12. 4. 2017 at 4:53 PM, Newstar said:

While I think D&D forgetting about Bran's claim likely has more to do with keeping Sansa in a position of power for her plot purposes than about Bran's character arc, I think Winterfell is going to look like small potatoes to Bran now that he's an omniscient demigod. There is some speculation that magic will leave the world altogether as part of the defeat of the WW, and that Bran will lose his powers, in which case he may very well want to resume being lord of Winterfell down the line, but I guess we'll see.

I'm not quite sure what TV Sansa will do if survives to the end but she isn't the endgame ruler of Winterfell. Endgame queen is very unlikely. It seems highly unlikely that she'll end up with Tyrion, so Casterly Rock is also out. Willas Tyrell doesn't exist in the show universe, and the show Tyrells seem pretty much doomed in any event. Edmure is still alive and kicking and likely to end up with Riverrun.

Frankly, there doesn't seem to be much else left for her other than Winterfell. Even ending up as Lady of the Vale seems like a stretch at this point, given her short stay there in the show and her lack of relationship with the only heir in the show universe (Robin Arryn).

Speaking of unlikely endgames, I'm not sure how Tyrion is supposed to start up his winery if he's Lord of Casterly Rock and all the wineries are in the Reach.

Not sure she'd want to do anything with Tyrion because they were already married and don't think another marriage will happen between them. Not sure with her what will be her endgame.

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Posted (edited)

Jon Snow: After resurrection becomes a ''Christ'' like figure, he preaches peace for all humanity but views that the only road to peace is by using his flaming sword to go to war against another race of sentient beings the white walkers. In the end Bran will kill him for good.

Daenerys: Is going to be absolutely convinced that she is the prince(ss) that was promised and that she must save the world or just westeros, A quest that she does not really want and in the end this will drive her to go mad. Jon kills her and draws out lightbringer.

Tyrion: Will in the end loose his tongue and maybe even his dick (He will get more deformed before the story ends). Either he will end up as a court jester to the winner of the iron throne or he will serve on the small council. Won't get Casterly Rock.

Sansa: Lady of Harrenthal, Lady Paramount of the Trident.

Arya: She''ll cross of some more people on her list and in the end will either be a faceless man who roams around the world assassin people or she will commit suicide so that she will live on inside Nymeria and her pack.

Bran: Will fuck up the past, the present and the future. Kills Jon.

Jaime: Will get fatally stabbed fighting in a trial by combat with Brienne against the brotherhood without banners. They'll win and escape but before Jaime dies, professes that Brienne is the knight he should have been and knights her before dying (any knight can make a knight), She buries him in the rain (a scene very similar to the beginning of Dunk and Egg).  

Cersei: Gets killed by Brienne.

Littlefinger: Will have Sweetrobin either poisoned to death or has Sweetrobin kidnapped and raped to death by Lyn Corbray. Sansa will have Littlefinger fly in the end.

Too hungover to think of any others

 

Ohh right this was a show only question. Well forget most of these then.

 

 

 

 

Edited by Lord Greenhood

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Posted (edited)

in respons to ops first post: Sansa isn`t a virgin anymore.

Edited by DreadedNorwegian

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Posted (edited)

On 3/20/2017 at 1:54 PM, Lord Friendzone said:

 For many Jon and Dany living, ruling ad having kids is not bittersweet or tragic enough. For me it depends on circumstances because living in the post-White Walkers era ain't a dreamland. People literally broken in spirits, many friends and loved ones dead, and tons of responsibilities on their shoulders. Does this sound to you as fanservice or too happy? To me it looks very LOTR-ish or what would George do.

I love how you put this.  It will be a tragic kingdom at that point.  How do you see MMD's curse playing out with Dany's womb quickening again-Sun rising in the west ect. ect. ect.?

 

 

Edited by A man has no name
New to quoting others...

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On 4/3/2017 at 7:24 PM, Pink Fat Rast said:

I don't think it's possible to predict Arya's "end game" without first predicting what the FM plot will amount to, if anything - are they "just another" religious cult with fantastical powers (like presumably the Warlocks), and Arya happened to bump into one of their members which resulted in her acquiring some useful skills?

Or do the FM have a more significant role to play, their meeting "not a coincidence", and her training an essential puzzle piece of destiny or whatever?
In the show, aspects of Jaqen's behavior (in Harrenhall, but of course also his smirk at the end) could imply something resembling the latter.

And if it's the former, the narrative probably should take time to explore the contrast between Arya's "random"/"lucky" supernatural training, and Bran's predestined, prophesized one - if both are to figure into the "end game".

Alternatively, it's also possible that Arya actually isn't gonna be part of any puzzle piece against the WWs, and instead will end up as an independent wild card out for vengeance, and possibly mucking up some alliances with the people on her list - or people she might proceed to add to her list later;
the bitterness over having "missed" Joffrey and Gregor might figure into it;
bonus points for interesting storytelling if her frustration over Gregor being an undead zombie and no longer the entity she wanted to brutally kill, is also additionally gonna figure into her attitudes towards the Wights, Qyburn or whatever's gonna play a role in the LN "endgame".

WOW! 

That's great! What if the faceless man who walks around as Area Stark is actually not her anymore?  Did she actually survive the battle with the Waif? The smirk by Jaken has to mean something. I can't imagine they spent the better part of an entire season on Arya's training just to have it be an antidote to use when needed.  I've always thought her 'little list' was much more important than a throw away line used more than once.  

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On Sat Apr 15 2017 at 6:52 AM, DreadedNorwegian said:

in respons to ops first post: Sansa isn`t a virgin anymore.

Queen Elizabeth I also wasn't a virgin, but was still referred to as the Virgin Queen for choosing not to marry or have children as she was married to her country and her subjects were her children.

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On 4/14/2017 at 3:53 PM, Lord Friendzone said:

Not sure she'd want to do anything with Tyrion because they were already married and don't think another marriage will happen between them.

Me neither, which is why I said it was "highly unlikely." 

Quote

Not sure with her what will be her endgame.

Lady of Winterfell or dead, I think, although I don't know how Bran would figure into the former.

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7 minutes ago, Newstar said:

Me neither, which is why I said it was "highly unlikely." 

A lot of people or let's say some fans want her with Jon in a marriage. While  Idon't think it'll happen , but it's up there just for the sake of argument.

Quote

Lady of Winterfell or dead, I think, although I don't know how Bran would figure into the former.

If Sansa truly represents Elizabeth of York and Dany Henry Tudor VII ... then we might have our ending for her.. :D In all seriousness, the North (Lady of WF or simply help rebuild the North) or dead. Considering how Tyrion said to her in S03 "Lady Stark , you may survive us yet" she will  develop a thick skin after her experiences with Joffrey, Ramsay and Baelish. It might just be enough for her to survive it, I have bigger concerns over Arya than Sansa.

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Posted (edited)

16 minutes ago, Lord Friendzone said:

A lot of people or let's say some fans want her with Jon in a marriage. While  Idon't think it'll happen , but it's up there just for the sake of argument.

If Sansa truly represents Elizabeth of York and Dany Henry Tudor VII ... then we might have our ending for her.. :D In all seriousness, the North (Lady of WF or simply help rebuild the North) or dead. Considering how Tyrion said to her in S03 "Lady Stark , you may survive us yet" she will  develop a thick skin after her experiences with Joffrey, Ramsay and Baelish. It might just be enough for her to survive it, I have bigger concerns over Arya than Sansa.

Arya was one of the five characters GRRM seemed to give a free pass in his outline, and GRRM apparently once talked about writing a post-ASOIAF series set in Braavos with an adult Arya playing a part, so I'm not overly concerned about her chances.

D&D seemed to tip their hand when they were joking about who gets to kill Sansa off in Season 8. If they really were planning on killing off Sansa in Season 8, would they joke about it? 

If Jon is the legitimate heir to the throne, then he is a more likely Elizabeth of York figure than Sansa, since Henry Tudor married Elizabeth of York because of her claim to the throne, to consolidate his reign.

Edited by Newstar

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56 minutes ago, Newstar said:

Arya was one of the five characters GRRM seemed to give a free pass in his outline, and GRRM apparently once talked about writing a post-ASOIAF series set in Braavos with an adult Arya playing a part, so I'm not overly concerned about her chances.

D&D seemed to tip their hand when they were joking about who gets to kill Sansa off in Season 8. If they really were planning on killing off Sansa in Season 8, would they joke about it? 

If Jon is the legitimate heir to the throne, then he is a more likely Elizabeth of York figure than Sansa, since Henry Tudor married Elizabeth of York because of her claim to the throne, to consolidate his reign.

With D&D joking about Sansa, don't think if it was their plan, they'd be joking about it in such a fashion.

Arya was said to survive in the original outline, favourite of George's wife (don't mean much but still) but writting series post ASOIAF but then George would have to finish it. Let's be honest, at this point many of fans give up that books will never be finished and show will give us ending. Considering show could go but hopefully won't go different way.

Sansa shares more traits with Elizabeth than Jon does. Jon is only bastard as Elizabeth were. Good article about it. 

http://history-behind-game-of-thrones.com/warofroses/sansa-elizabeth-of-york

 

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