Lucius Lovejoy

Endgame roles for all major characters (TV only)

172 posts in this topic

41 minutes ago, Lord Friendzone said:

Arya was said to survive in the original outline, favourite of George's wife (don't mean much but still) but writting series post ASOIAF but then George would have to finish it. Let's be honest, at this point many of fans give up that books will never be finished and show will give us ending. Considering show could go but hopefully won't go different way.

I think for the principal characters--Starks, Dany, Lannister siblings--the endings will be exactly the same in the show as in ASOIAF. For the Pods and Bronns of the story, I suspect GRRM hasn't given D&D any guidance as to where they end up (based on Werthead's description of the 2013 meeting with GRRM), so D&D are on their own there. 

Even if the story about GRRM planning a post-ASOIAF Braavos story with an adult Arya is untrue--I heard it from the user Prince_Cade on Reddit--it seems unlikely that GRRM ever planned on killing off Arya. 

Quote

 

Sansa shares more traits with Elizabeth than Jon does. Jon is only bastard as Elizabeth were. Good article about it. 

http://history-behind-game-of-thrones.com/warofroses/sansa-elizabeth-of-york

 

As far as I know, Elizabeth of York was never a bastard. Elizabeth I, although her parents were married at the time, was retroactively declared a bastard when Henry VIII had his marriage to Anne Boleyn annulled.

Also, Sansa has no claim to the throne, which is the reason Henry Tudor married Elizabeth of York. A better Elizabeth of York figure, assuming Jon as the Henry Tudor figure, would be Myrcella, Shireen, or even Dany herself.

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7 minutes ago, Newstar said:

I think for the principal characters--Starks, Dany, Lannister siblings--the endings will be exactly the same in the show as in ASOIAF. For the Pods and Bronns of the story, I suspect GRRM hasn't given D&D any guidance as to where they end up (based on Werthead's description of the 2013 meeting with GRRM), so D&D are on their own there. 

Even if the story about GRRM planning a post-ASOIAF Braavos story with an adult Arya is untrue--I heard it from the user Prince_Cade on Reddit--it seems unlikely that GRRM ever planned on killing off Arya. 

I sure as hell hope so but some people are sceptical if D&D given that George might or might not finish this saga. It looks to me, and Iam not the only one that George fall out of love with ASOIAF or is no no rush to finish it because show will do it for him or he simply doesn't care too much for it. Either way, yeah Sandor for example is clearly evidence George himself is in the dark where his arc will go. Because I doubt wight hunt witll be a thing in the books among other things. I do wondr for example with Cersei, how is her arc gonna end because show totally omittted valonqar part of prophecy and now people don't know what will happen with her in the books.

Quote

As far as I know, Elizabeth of York was never a bastard. Elizabeth I, although her parents were married at the time, was retroactively declared a bastard when Henry VIII had his marriage to Anne Boleyn annulled.

Also, Sansa has no claim to the throne, which is the reason Henry Tudor married Elizabeth of York. A better Elizabeth of York figure, assuming Jon as the Henry Tudor figure, would be Myrcella, Shireen, or even Dany herself.

I am not the best expert of English history but I thought Elizabeth of York was declared a bastard. I always view Sansa as the closest out of main characters to Elizabeth of York. Dany is closest to  Henry Tudor exiled, heri to ancient dynasty, reclaiming England and Westeros etc. Although ,Jon shares some parallels with him too. Much like in Lord of the Rings Jon and Bran shares parallels with Frodo or Jon with Gandalf elements of being reborn, Dany and Jon with Aragorn. Jon Northemen ,descendant of ancient house, guarding realms. Dany was even compared with her dragons to Aragorn and Andúril by George. Either way, not like George will copy the ending of War of Roses but just funny tidbit about characters and where the inspirations came from.

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Elizabeth of York was declared a bastard by her uncle Richard III, when he usurped the throne from the prince(s) in the tower by claiming Edward and Elizabeth Woodville's marriage was not lawful;  Henry Tudor and Parliament then undeclared the same and made her legitimate again.

Sansa can't be Elizabeth of York unless she marries the king, thus, uniting Westeros again.  

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Posted (edited)

2 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

Elizabeth of York was declared a bastard by her uncle Richard III, when he usurped the throne from the prince(s) in the tower by claiming Edward and Elizabeth Woodville's marriage was not lawful;  Henry Tudor and Parliament then undeclared the same and made her legitimate again.

Sansa can't be Elizabeth of York unless she marries the king, thus, uniting Westeros again.  

Sansa can't be Elizabeth of York because she has no claim to the throne. If ASOIAF's succession struggle is going to end with a marriage uniting competing claims, it will be between Targs. My guess? Jon marries Dany, Dany dies birthing the heir, and Jon never remarries.

 

2 hours ago, Lord Friendzone said:

I do wondr for example with Cersei, how is her arc gonna end because show totally omittted valonqar part of prophecy and now people don't know what will happen with her in the books.

It could be that she gets valonqar'd in the show just as in the books and that D&D only left out that part of the prophecy because it was too obvious.

Edited by Newstar

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57 minutes ago, Newstar said:

Sansa can't be Elizabeth of York because she has no claim to the throne. If ASOIAF's succession struggle is going to end with a marriage uniting competing claims, it will be between Targs. My guess? Jon marries Dany, Dany dies birthing the heir, and Jon never remarries.

No, it¨s not just a claim but her character and what George took as inspiration. You got plenty of detailed in depth analysis on how Elizabeth and Sansa are a lot alike, unlike Jon. Not meaning just gender. Who knows maybe Sansa marrries Jon and we'll be totally wrong. :dunno:

Quote

It could be that she gets valonqar'd in the show just as in the books and that D&D only left out that part of the prophecy because it was too obvious.

Like Tyrion obvious? Jaime gets off to fight white walkers. He's pretty much done with her, that leaves Tyrion or Arya. I have to include Arya because valonqar like prince is in the prophecy gender neutral.

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Posted (edited)

18 hours ago, Lord Friendzone said:

No, it¨s not just a claim but her character and what George took as inspiration. You got plenty of detailed in depth analysis on how Elizabeth and Sansa are a lot alike, unlike Jon. Not meaning just gender. Who knows maybe Sansa marrries Jon and we'll be totally wrong. :dunno:

Like Tyrion obvious? Jaime gets off to fight white walkers. He's pretty much done with her, that leaves Tyrion or Arya. I have to include Arya because valonqar like prince is in the prophecy gender neutral.

Arya, Tyrion and Jaime are all either in the north or headed north as of the end of Season 7. They'll all be fighting the WWs one way or another. One of them is going to have to track south again to deal with Cersei. I don't see why it couldn't be Jaime as easily as Tyrion or Arya.

The show seems to have built up more of a connection between Cersei and Arya, so she could be the one.

Edited by Newstar

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On ‎4‎/‎17‎/‎2017 at 3:59 PM, Lucius Lovejoy said:

Queen Elizabeth I also wasn't a virgin, but was still referred to as the Virgin Queen for choosing not to marry or have children as she was married to her country and her subjects were her children.

We have no conclusive evidence to proof whether Queen Elizabeth was technically a virgin or not. It all remain speculation to historians as whether she lose her virginity to Robert Dudley, Thomas Seymour, or other dudes.

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  • Jorah - Lord Commander of the Night's Watch
  • Tyrion - Hand of the Queen to Daenerys Targaryen
  • Daenerys - Queen of Westeros and Essos
  • Gendry - Lord of Storm's End
  • Arya - Dead in the Riverlands
  • Jon - Dead, fertilizing the Gift after he was eaten by Drogon and came out digested at the other end
  • Sansa - Joined the Silent Sisters
  • Bran - Green Seer
  • Samwell - Maester at the Wall
  • Dolorous Edd - Dead
  • Bron - Died of frostbite
  • Jaime - Died with Brienne in Casterly Rock

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I have some opinions regarding how the books are going to end, but the same things and relationships aren't happening in the show.

I think either Jon or Arya are going to die, I can't see both of them surviving, and maybe it's Jon that saves Arya from herself,these two have a really strong connection in the books and are constantly thinking about each other, In the show we see Arya's attachment to needle but we don't see Jon saying anything that shows he misses Arya(at least not that I can remember).

and that has me questioning my prediction,So I think maybe he chooses to save arya and somehow turns his back on dany in the process.
maybe Arya wanting revenge on KL and jon stopping her,accidently killing her then goes to a remote place out of grief(after defeating the WWs of course) or arya dies at the WW battle and jon sacrifices himself to bring her back, something dramatic like that,but again based on the show we will probably see a dramatic death scene between jon and dany in the end not these two. but Arya's gotta heal from all those trauma somehow.
Sansa lives and rules some place.
Bran becomes a tree or something.
Tyrion lives and helps westeros back to glory after WW fight.
Jaime dead
Cersei dead ,probably jaime and cersei die at the same time but its too predictable
bronn lives
Sand snakes and Ellaria death (at least some them)
Greyjoys death except for theon, but I'm hoping Yara makes it.
Olenna not sure
Gendry lives and rules Stormlands
Brienne dead
Sandor not sure,probably plays a role in the war to come and redeems himself
Honestly I haven't given much thought about what happens to everyone else except Jon and Arya, my favorite characters,
 

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Posted (edited)

  • Daenerys Targaryen - Empress of Westeros, the Dothraki, and the Bay of Dragons
  • Jon Snow - Permanently dead from a case of sword in the belly.
  • Tyrion - Proprietor of a house of prostitution in Lys after signing away Casterly Rock to the sellswords.
  • Arya - Died in the riverlands while trying to complete her list.  Her list is incomplete.
  • Jorah - Commander of the Night's Watch
  • Theon - Died from infection. 
  • Ramsay - Dead
  • Roose - Dead
  • Fat Walda - Dead
  • Sansa - Married to Shaga and expecting triplets
  • Jaime - Forced to join the Night Watch.  He's the new cook at the wall.
  • Gendry - Forced to join the Night Watch.  He's the new smith at the wall.
  • Drogon - Enjoying his new home at Dragonstone. 
  • Ghost - Gone wild on the other side of the wall. 
  • Nymeria - Caught by the Freys and now adorn one wall of old Walder's bed chamber.
  • Bran - Living a quiet life in Greywater Watch, married to Meera.  They can't have children but they have Hodor and Summer.
  • Bronn - Wightified by the Others and later burned to ash by Drogon at the Trident. 
  • Cersei - Dead.  Killed by No one.
  • Sandor - Living a quiet life in the salt pans.
  • Greyworm - Still the commander of the Unsullied.
  • Missandei - Adviser to Her Majesty, Empress Daenerys.
  • Brienne - Died at Casterly Rock
  • Sam Tarly - Flunked out of the Citadel.  Opened a restaurant at Flea Bottom.  Gilly is the waitress.
  • Craster's son - King Beyond the Wall
  • Val - Killed by Euron
  • Stannis - Killed by Roose
  • Davos - Got hired as the new sailing instructor at Oldtown Sailing School. 
  • Asha - Head of House Greyjoy, paramounts of the iron islands.
  • Barristan - Dead
  • Illyrio - Master of Coin for the Empire
  • Varys - Retired.  Living in Pentos.
  • Rickon - Dead
  • Sweet Robert Arryn - Lord of the Vale
  • Roslyn and Edmure - still married but lost Riverrun, Edmure is now a simple fisherman.
  • Edd Tollett - MIA
  • Penny - married to Patchface
  • Mance Rayder - Dead.  Killed by Stan. 
  • Mellisandre - Scrubbing floors at the renovated "Inn of the Kneeling Man".
  • Jaquen - Left the House of Black and White.  Opened his own medical practice in Braavos specializing in facial reconstruction.  The name of the practice is Hagar & Qyburn, LLP.
  • Bowen Marsh - still steward at the wall
  • Euron - Ashed by Drogon
Edited by Annalee

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Jon Snow is the Song of Ice and Fire.  When the song ends, so must he.  On the other hand, while the song goes on so must he.

(This is the critical "bitterness" in the ending.  Humanity must survive the WW (not even GRRM would do otherwise).  The only way to balance that out is if the most important character, Jon, dies.  Also fits with the Christ motif for Jon. Also, Jon died.  His own death must finally come, for that debt to be repaid.)

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If it's right that Jon must die, it follows that Dany must live and lead.

Except that, finally, she we will lead as a fully-fledged leader and, crucially, without any supernatural forces - just with her own accumulated wisdom.

All the dragons will die and magic will vanish from the world (a la LoTR).

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That, in turn, would make it likely that Bran will either die or go to some magical place, rather than become Lord of Winterfell.

Also, Arya's story must tie back into Jon's.  So Arya will also die.  I like the idea of her killing the Night's King, perhaps with Jon - in a "we're not coming back" kind of scene.

That would leave Sansa as the sole survivor of the Starks. This would kind of 'complete' and redress the whole female suffering of Catelyn, Arya, Sansa, Lysa and even Lyanna.

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Just caught up with the leaks.  In summary (and all reference to "dead" = permanently, irreversibly, finally dead):

1.  JON - dies.  Kills NK.  Stays a Snow to the end - neither Stark nor Targaryen.  Dies just like Rhaegar does.

2.  DANY - lives.  Never remarries.  Has a son by Jon.  Wise queen in a kind of federation, with separate rule for each separate kingdom (humility of the North).

3.  BRAN - dies (may pass into a timeless state where death has no meaning).  Last greenseer/3ER.  He probably built the wall in the past, but does not need to build a new one as magic dies.

4.  SANSA - QITN.

5.  CERSEI - Valonqar'd.

6.  JAMIE - survives, Lord of Casterly Rock.

7.  ARYA - dies with Jon.

8.  TYRION - lives, running kingdom with Dany, "Hand" and brother to Dany --- Tyrion and Dany become the "good" version of Cersei and Jamie, but without the sex.

9.  YARA - Queen of the Iron Islands.

10.  THEON - dead.

11.  JORAH - dead.

12.  DRAGONS - dead.

13.  WW - dead.

14.  RELIGIONS/MAGIC (The Faith, R'hllor, FM) - dead.

15.  MELISANDRE - dead.

16.  DAVOS - dies, somehow ends up tied up with the Jon/Arya deaths.

17.  GHOST - see 1.

18.  NYMERIA - see 7.

19.  GENDRY - King of Stormlands.

20.  EURON - dead.

21.  BERIC - dead. See 14.

22.  LADY STONE HEART - dead. Ditto.

23.  TORMUND - lives.

24.  BRIENNE - lives.

25.  BENJEN - dead. See 13 and 14.

26.  SANDOR - dead.  Somehow ties up with Arya/Jon/Davos.

27.  LITTLEFINGER - long dead in Season 7.

28.  VARYS - dead (Tyrion essentially replaces him).

29. QYBURN - dead. See 5.

30.  SAM and GILLY - live.

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The only confidence that I have is that Sam and Gilly survive.

 

Gilly is related to the whitewalkers and may know more about them but nobody has ever thought to question her.

I think Sam and Gilly will rule the Reach.

I also think King Robert's curse is a touch of foreshadowing. That means Sansa, Arya and Bran all survive. It would also suggest that Jon and Theon also survive.

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3 hours ago, Mandzipop said:

The only confidence that I have is that Sam and Gilly survive.

 

Gilly is related to the whitewalkers and may know more about them but nobody has ever thought to question her.

I think Sam and Gilly will rule the Reach.

I also think King Robert's curse is a touch of foreshadowing. That means Sansa, Arya and Bran all survive. It would also suggest that Jon and Theon also survive.

Yes, I liked this theory when I first saw it! I really hope it's true, especially Arya, Bran and Sansa.

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Posted (edited)

On 19/04/2017 at 11:52 PM, Newstar said:

The show seems to have built up more of a connection between Cersei and Arya, so she could be the one.

I think in the show, with the way they've constructed Arya's arc, she simply has to be the one to end Cersei (and the Mountain). 

Unless her story arc takes a pretty massive twist and she ends up in a role there's been no foreshadowing of in the show, then Arya seems pretty destined to continue working down her list, which Cersei belongs right at the top of. I think Arya is going to find out more about both Littlefinger and Cersei's plots which have impacted her family. Bran may even be involved in revealing some of this when they reunite. She'll end Littlefinger in Season 7 (despite him not being on her list right now) and then Cersei in Season 8. She'll kill the Mountain before Cersei, but that could be either at end of S7 or during S8.

I think Cersei still has one massive play to make yet also, which will likely result in the death of many of her enemies. D&D love Lena and we already know she is signed on for Season 8 - I think they definitely have plans to send her out with a bang. Show wise, Cersei is undoubtedly the primary antagonist. Littlefinger is responsible for a hell of a lot, but Cersei is ra much more important character than him in show and basically the two of them are responsible for starting this whole thing. Cersei had Robert killed, imprisoned Ned, crowned her son and stole the regency,  despite Ned being named Protector of the realm by King Robert. Meanwhile, Littlefinger had Lysa kill Jon Arryn and probably was the one who suggested to Joffrey that Ned must die, knowing the war that would follow when that happened.

Lannister soldiers involved in Red Wedding, Polliver, Rorge, Meryn Trant, even Walder Frey...all minor characters. They were just foreplay. Arya's big climax kill in the show simply has to be Cersei. 

Show Jaime on the other hand, while his arc is inextricably linked with Cersei, it doesn't have to end with him killing her. I think Jaime's end game seems more destined toward him finally letting go of Cersei. I think a combination of Cersei's own deplorable actions and his conflicted feelings toward Brienne will lead to Jaime abandoning his sister to do the right thing. I think he may even command the Lannister forces in the war against the White Walkers. They've already tried to show him as a decent battle commander (riverrun).

They have stretched the Jaime-Cersei relationship way past the books as it is. It's just really difficult to see show Jaime ever willingly killing his sister. Abandoning her and leaving her to her own fate, yes.

If Arya does not kill Cersei in the show, then it's really hard to work out what her main role will be. I can't see her just abandoning her thirst for vengeance without a second thought even after reuniting with her family. 

Edited by Gaz0680

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Posted (edited)

En 05/02/2017 a las 3:05 AM, Aemon Targaryen dijo:

Sólo se encontró con las fugas. En resumen (y toda referencia a "muerto" = permanente, irreversible, por último muerto):

1. JON - muere. Muertes NK. Se mantiene una nieve hasta el final - ni tampoco Stark Targaryen. Muere al igual que lo hace Rhaegar.

2. DANY - vidas. Nunca se vuelve a casar. Tiene un hijo de Jon. reina sabia en una especie de federación, con el artículo separado para cada reino separado (humildad del Norte).

3. BRAN - muere (puede pasar a un estado sin tiempo donde la muerte no tiene sentido). Última greenseer / 3ER. Probablemente construida la pared en el pasado, pero no tiene que construir uno nuevo como la magia muere.

4. SANSA - QITN.

5. Cersei - Valonqar'd.

6. JAMIE - sobrevive, señor de Roca Casterly.

7. ARYA - muere con Jon.

8. TYRION - vidas, corriendo reino con Dany, "mano" y hermano de Dany --- Tyrion y Dany se convierten en la "buena" versión de Cersei y Jaime, pero sin el sexo.

9. YARA - Reina de las Islas del Hierro.

10. THEON - muertos.

11. Jora - muertos.

12. dragones - muertos.

13. WW - muertos.

14. RELIGIONES / MAGIC (La Fe, R'hllor, FM) - muerto.

15. MELISANDRE - muertos.

16. DAVOS - muere, de alguna manera termina atado con las muertes Jon / Arya.

17. FANTASMA - ver 1.

18. nymeria - ver 7.

19. GENDRY - Rey de Stormlands.

20. EURON - muertos.

21. Beric - muertos. Ver 14.

22. SEÑORA STONE HEART - muertos. Ídem.

23. Tormund - vidas.

24. BRIENNE - vidas.

25. Benjen - muertos. Ver 13 y 14.

26. SANDOR - muertos. De alguna manera ata con Arya / Jon / Davos.

27. Meñique - muerto hace mucho tiempo en la temporada 7.

28. Varys - muertos (Tyrion es sustituido esencialmente).

29. Qyburn - muertos. Ver 5.

30. SAM y GILLY - vivir.

That ending is very bad.

Edited by The Prince who was not pro

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I wouldn't guess the fate of any character because no one is safe...but I'm fairly certain that Dany will die.

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7 hours ago, The Prince who was not pro said:

That ending is very bad.

Not that bad.  

1.   NK, WW, Cersei, Qyburn, Littlefinger, Melisandre, Euron are all baddies (least so Melisandre, but still - the princess sacrifice), so their deaths are hardly tragic.

2.  Bran will cause serious damage with his powers (as he already has with Hodor), as well as saving the world.  After such knowledge as he has and will have, he cannot remain a normal person anyhow.  This has already started, and apparently gets a lot more obvious in Season 7 judging by the leaks about Bran and Meera.

3.  Jon (and Ghost) should already be dead -- there is no justification for why Jon has come back unchanged. In a sense, this is already a "cheat" by the author.  Jon himself did not want to come back and orders. Melisandre not to bring him back again. The tragedy of Jon's death will, of course, increase as he falls in love with Dany and, like his father Rhaegar, does not get to raise his son as a father - that will instead be done by someone else.

(Incidentally, I speculate that the reason why Rhaegar apparently broke his oaths and was so rash with Lyanna was that he had sought the AA prophecy to be fulfilled for so hard and so long, had tried to will it into existence, had failed miserably and had given up .... and then, just when he stopped trying, he falls in love with Lyanna and suddenly he knows that he is the father of the one who was promised and that it is this love that will make AA .... and sort of does it self-sacrificingly almost.  The paradox is similar to Borges' story about Judas being Jesus' truest disciple -- knowing that without him taking up the role of bad guy, the destined history will not happen.  I strongly feel that this kind of paradox resonates with Rhaegar --- that he is not such a simplistic figure, but there is this deep tragic sense of him being uniquely tuned into "fate" and similarly "fate" fucking with him in a particularly perverse way.)

4.  Humanity in general, Dany, Tyrion, Jamie (having completed his character arc into a good person and having killed his sister for the sake of the realm), Brienne, Sansa, Yara, Sam, Gilly, Tormund -- is a long list of survivors.  It almost seems too happy an ending!

5.  But that is balanced by how the tragedy of Jon also ties in with, I think, Arya, Bran, Davos, Sandor at the least. Ultimately, this tragedy is related to the fact that the Starks are somehow partly or indirectly responsible for the WW (dating back to the FM).  Bran and Jon must pay this price .... this is one reason why Jon ultimately remains a Stark.  It is Jon, Bran and Arya who pay the price.

(Incidentally, there is an interesting theory that the basis of the FM was not (just) to kill slaves in the Valyrian mines, but to kill them in a way that would prevent Valyrian blood magic bringing them back to work as slaves .... that is, that the Valar Morghulis (All men must die) was a gift because it avoided being hellishly brought back to suffer.  If this is true, then the FM could be wanting to kill Jon, who has robbed the many-faced god of a life by being brought back to life .... In that sense, Valar Morghulis has a particular resonance and must apply to Jon ... but, Valar Dohaeris, his service to the world continues.)

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