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Sansa knew about Jeynes faith


nadabutso

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Sadly, I think Sansa's been too preoccupied with her own problems to even think about Jeyne. Keep in mind she's been living in terror since her Dad was killed. She's managed to escape from Joffrey, and her forced marriage to Tyrion, but now she's stuck with Littlefinger who murdered her Aunt in front of her, and acts creepy as hell towards her. She can't run way either because (a) she's got nowhere to go (b) she's wanted for regicide.

Jeyne's had it much worse obviously but it's not like Sansa's life has been a picnic.

13 hours ago, Magnar of the Dreadfort said:

Did she gets forced into prostitution? I thought she was just hidden a way for awhile and trained to become (f)Arya 

I definitely read it as she'd been forced into prostitution. The war had barely begun at the time she was taken. There was no way Littlefinger could predict that they might need a Northern girl who was familiar with Winterfell at some point. They needed her away from Sansa and it's typical of Littlefinger that he'd try and make a profit than simply having her killed.

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7 hours ago, Luddagain said:

So far I see nothing to really redeem Sansa as a "good" character. 1-She has taken no risks for another person and has turned a blind eye to many very wrong actions - 2-Lyssa's murder,3- Marillon, 4-Dontos's murder, 5-possibly Sweet Robin, Joffrey's lies.

1-She saved Dantos(a drunk, useless, stranger) from Joffery and it happened right after she promised herself to remain quiet no matter what. and she made that promise because Joffery had a habit of having her beaten black & blue whenever he felt like it.

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The king was growing bored. It made Sansa anxious. She lowered her eyes and resolved to keep quiet, no matter what. When Joffrey Baratheon's mood darkened, any chance word might set off one of his rages.

2-Lyssa tried to kill Sansa while she was insulting her and her dead mother.

3-Marillon tried to rape her and if it wasn't for Lothor Brune he would have done that. He also played his harp and sung as loud as he could to muffle Sansa's screams while Lysa was trying to push her out of the Moon Door.

4-Dontos's murder was not her fault and there was nothing she could to about it. but she feels guilty about him and Marillon and Littlefinger knows it very well:

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"... Do you want more blood on your pretty little hands, my darling?"
Marillion's face seemed to float before her, the bandage pale across his eyes. Behind him she could see Ser Dontos, the crossbow bolts still in him. "No," Sansa said. "Please."

You should take into account that she is wanted for regicide. she has no where to go and no one to trust. Littlefinger has saved her twice and for now is her one and only option to survive and go home. she is at his mercy so she can not question or fight him but that does not mean she is ok with whatever he does.

5-She is not aware of SR's possible poisoning.

6-I agree. in the first book she used to turn a blind eye to Joffery's lies and cruelty because she was a naive and selfish child who wanted her dreams and fantasies to be true so badly.

7 hours ago, Luddagain said:

She rarely thinks about her family, although we begin to see some awakening in the Snow Castle scene. She does not ask about Jeyne Poole or even if Arya has been found.

She thinks about her family a lot. I can provide you with a dozen quotes if you like. one of them is this:

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She missed Septa Mordane, and even more Jeyne Poole, her truest friend. The septa had lost her head with the rest, for the crime of serving House Stark. Sansa did not know what had happened to Jeyne, who had disappeared from her rooms afterward, never to be mentioned again. She tried not to think of them too often, yet sometimes the memories came unbidden, and then it was hard to hold back the tears. Once in a while, Sansa even missed her sister. By now Arya was safe back in Winterfell, dancing and sewing, playing with Bran and baby Rickon, even riding through the winter town if she liked.

 

7 hours ago, Luddagain said:

I hope Sansa is on a redemption arc, but so far I have seen nothing to show that she is one of the good guys.

Just like our other protagonists, She is a grey character. she has flaws and makes mistakes but she also learns and matures. she is not the girl she was in GOT, she has changed. here is a simple but great example of that:

At the beginning of the story she looks down at Jon because he is a bastard:

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Sansa sighed as she stitched. "Poor Jon," she said. "He gets jealous because he's a bastard."

And here is a quote from her last chapter:

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I could close my eyes. The mule knows the way, he has no need of me. But that seemed more something Sansa would have done, that frightened girl. Alayne was an older woman, and bastard brave.

She thinks Alayne is stronger and braver than Sansa because she is a bastard.

 

IMO Her development is one of the best in the story.

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21 hours ago, Sea Dragon said:

That is no problem. How funny that I just said the same thing to another poster here. I need a reread too for some information! I guess we all just remember our own little details? 

I guess so :) 

I remember that chapter was a bit much tbh. After reading it though my main question was what didn't Theon have.

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6 hours ago, winter daughter said:

5-She is not aware of SR's possible poisoning.

6-I agree. in the first book she used to turn a blind eye to Joffery's lies and cruelty because she was a naive and selfish child who wanted her dreams and fantasies to be true so badly.

[...]

IMO Her development is one of the best in the story.

She's definitely aware of SR's possible poisoning. She even orders the maester to continue it (rather dosing him). She does it because she values her life more than his. I can't say I blame her for it.

And yes her character development is one of the best. I prefer Jaime's arc but Sansa is an actually a fun character to read now, as opposed to GoT and ACoK where she was impossible for me to relate to and horrendously annoying, which one expects from a naive, vapid preteen.

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1 hour ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

She's definitely aware of SR's possible poisoning. She even orders the maester to continue it (rather dosing him). She does it because she values her life more than his. I can't say I blame her for it.

She doesn't think about it as poisoning, she thinks it's the only effective solution for his seizures. she does not order it because she wants to murder him. she actually cares about SR:(TWOW spoiler)

Spoiler
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If the gods are good and he lives long enough to wed, his wife will admire his hair, surely. That much she will love about him.

 

and she wants him to be brave and safe:

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Lord Robert's mother had filled him full of fears, but he always took courage from the tales she read him of Ser Artys Arryn, the Winged Knight of legend, founder of his line. Why not surround him with Winged Knights? She had thought one night, after Sweetrobin had finally drifted off to sleep. His own Kingsguard, to keep him safe and make him brave.

 

And I think Littlefinger doesn't want him dead either(not yet). SR is a very valuable pawn and the only excuse he has for staying in the Vale after Lysa's death. He needs him alive for at least one year.

 

I agree about Jamie's arc, it's awesome. I love Sandor's arc too...I think they are very similar in some aspects.

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I wouldn't be surprised if Sansa never asked simply because she to scared of the answer...the quote the OP used is when Sansa is just starting to expect the worse and those expectations of the worst have only been reinforced the longer she spent in KL.  I think she doesn't ask because if she doesn't ask then no one can tell her Jeyne is dead and if no one tells her Jeyne is dead then she can keep pretending Jeyne's fine (and I think she knows she is pretending...I think it's similar to why she doesn't ever ask about Arya - if no one tells her Arya's dead then she can make up whatever story she needs to...she can hope and pretend Arya's fine or in the depths of sadness assume Arya's with their parents).

Basically I think it's a coping mechanism...maybe not a healthy one, but so far decently effective - Sansa hasn't really had the luxury of being able to grieve for any of them anyway so being able to have a *little* bit of hope gives Sansa something "good" to focus on when she can.  Almost like Schrodinger's Cat...they're not *really* dead until someone tells me they're dead and if I don't ask no one will tell me...(I do think not asking about Arya was *slightly* strategic too - no point in continuing to draw Cersei's attention to missing Arya by asking about where Arya is... But on that note, I think the "strategic" idea came later; I don't think Sansa thought of it while the massacre was occurring or even immediately after when she spoke to Cersei.  I think the idea probably came to her after she learned that Cersei didn't know where Arya was either.  Once she learned that no one knew where Arya was, why would she keep drawing their attention to Arya by asking about her? 

But more than anything, I think Sansa just didn't want to know the answer - she wanted to be able to fill in the blanks herself rather than hear Cersei or Joffrey's gloating about her dead and missing friends and family.  When you suspect the answer is "She's dead" would YOU bother asking Cersei?  Cause I sure wouldn't - all she's gonna do is gloat and call you and your friend names and be overall rude and cruel...what's the point of asking Cersei? And that's assuming Cersei wouldn't lie to you and tell you your friend is dead just to get her rocks off!  I wouldn't bother asking anyone about anything if I had been in Sansa's position...she's gonna get lied to and mocked and treated like garbage because she's worried about her friend/sister....I wouldn't bother, I wouldn't get a straight answer and I certainly wouldn't get an *honest* answer so what's the point?

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1 hour ago, winter daughter said:

She doesn't think about it as poisoning, she thinks it's the only effective solution for his seizures. she does not order it because she wants to murder him. she actually cares about SR:(TWOW spoiler)

  Reveal hidden contents

 

and she wants him to be brave and safe:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

And I think Littlefinger doesn't want him dead either(not yet). SR is a very valuable pawn and the only excuse he has for staying in the Vale after Lysa's death. He needs him alive for at least one year.

 

I agree about Jamie's arc, it's awesome. I love Sandor's arc too...I think they are very similar in some aspects.

Point is she's well aware continued dosage might kill him and certainly he's being fed too much now.

“He had a cup not three days past,” Colemon objected.
“And wanted another last night, which you refused him.”
“It was too soon. My lady, you do not understand. As I’ve told the Lord Protector, a pinch of sweetsleep will prevent the shaking, but it does not leave the flesh, and in time . . .”
“Time will not matter if his lordship has a shaking fit and falls off the mountain. If my father were here, I know he would tell you to keep Lord Robert calm at all costs.”

[...]

“Just give him a cup of the sweetmilk before we go, and another at the feast, and there should be no trouble.”
“Very well.” They paused at the foot of the stairs. “But this must be the last. For half a year, or longer.”
“You had best take that up with the Lord Protector.” She pushed through the door and crossed the yard. Colemon only wanted the best for his charge, Alayne knew, but what was best for Robert the boy and what was best for Lord Arryn were not always the same. Petyr had said as much, and it was true. Maester Colemon cares only for the boy, though. Father and I have larger concerns.”

It both feeds Petyr's ambition and protects Sansa.  Like I said I can't blame her for it but she's well aware of what's going on.

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Fair enough, but what about this part of the quote: '... what was best for Robert the boy and what was best for Lord Arryn were not always the same....'

She's right. The lords of the vale are on the verge of revolt as it is. They know boy lords are always a disaster (Roose Bolton said that, but it's probably the common view). They know Robert is too sickly, too emotionally unstable, and too crazily bloodthirsty to be anything but a disaster to the Vale.

So Robert has got to hide all that before some publicly-spirited person bumps him off. But it's not Alayne who's the threat - it's one of his own lords.

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13 hours ago, Yet Another Stark Fan said:

Are you being sarcastic?:huh:  

A. Sansa does not know that Jeyne is alive.

B. Sansa does not know that Petyr owns brothels.

C. It would be counterproductive for Petyr to tell Sansa that her best friend is a sex slave that was forcibly married to a sadist and he had a major role in it.

I have no idea where you are coming from. I never said nor suggested Petyr would tell her the truth. I said she may have asked what happened to Jeyne off page, that's all.

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12 hours ago, GhostNymeria said:

That's debatable, because if that's the case then you could also assume anything could have happened to any POV "off page". If Grrm wanted to have Sansa show concern for Jeyne I think he would have put it on page. Since Grrm choose to point out that Sansa forgot to ask what happend to her sister, I think having Sansa not sharing a second though about Jeyne is supposed to be part of that characterisation as well. 

I'm not assuming it happened, I'm simply not assuming it didn't. The issue here is we don't get a lot of Sansa chapters after she flees Kings Landing and there are a lot of pressing things for GRRM to actually show us. She wouldn't ask it when she first meets him, it would be totally out of place in that scene. I guess if it did happen GRRM could have shown us when they arrive at the fingers but by then it could arguably already be too late to show she cares since the reader would question why she hadn't asked earlier.

The thought about forgetting to ask about Arya is imo a thought where she starts to realise she isn't a good person. It is actually a caring thought.

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1 hour ago, Makk said:

I'm not assuming it happened, I'm simply not assuming it didn't. The issue here is we don't get a lot of Sansa chapters after she flees Kings Landing and there are a lot of pressing things for GRRM to actually show us. She wouldn't ask it when she first meets him, it would be totally out of place in that scene. I guess if it did happen GRRM could have shown us when they arrive at the fingers but by then it could arguably already be too late to show she cares since the reader would question why she hadn't asked earlier.

The thought about forgetting to ask about Arya is imo a thought where she starts to realise she isn't a good person. It is actually a caring thought.

I agree with you that we don't have that many Sansa chapters pre Kings landing, so you have a point. And I also don't think Sansa is selfish character pre Kings landing. I should have expressed myself clearer, but I meant that her self centeredness was supposed to be part of her characterization in the first book. I also think her thought about Arya was caring, but at the same time Grrm is pointing out here that Sansa did forget about Arya. So I definitely agree with you that her though about forgetting to ask about Arya also represents a turning point towards her later character development:)

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26 minutes ago, GhostNymeria said:

I agree with you that we don't have that many Sansa chapters pre Kings landing, so you have a point. And I also don't think Sansa is selfish character pre Kings landing. I should have expressed myself clearer, but I meant that her self centeredness was supposed to be part of her characterization in the first book. I also think her thought about Arya was caring, but at the same time Grrm is pointing out here that Sansa did forget about Arya. So I definitely agree with you that her though about forgetting to ask about Arya also represents a turning point towards her later character development:)

Yep, fair enough, I agree.

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3 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Fair enough, but what about this part of the quote: '... what was best for Robert the boy and what was best for Lord Arryn were not always the same....'

She's right. The lords of the vale are on the verge of revolt as it is. They know boy lords are always a disaster (Roose Bolton said that, but it's probably the common view). They know Robert is too sickly, too emotionally unstable, and too crazily bloodthirsty to be anything but a disaster to the Vale.

So Robert has got to hide all that before some publicly-spirited person bumps him off. But it's not Alayne who's the threat - it's one of his own lords.

Well given that she has was just lectured about HtH, her potential betrothed, I'd have to say it's both that SR needs to be under control and it doesn't really matter if he dies because Harry exists and it only makes her more powerful sooner.

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5 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Point is she's well aware continued dosage might kill him and certainly he's being fed too much now.

I see your point. In that situation she seems more concerned about Robin's status as Lord of the Eyrie than his health.

I think she is caught between a rock and a hard place. we know maester Colemon has tried other treatments but none of them were helpful. she is aware of its harms but the other option is to let him suffer from seizures. and he has not started bleeding from the nose yet so maybe that's the reason she is not alarmed.

I still believe she cares about SR and has no intention to kill him.

And I think I should've expressed my self better in my first post. I wanted to say if Littlefinger has a plan to kill the boy, she is not aware of it.

"Petyr arched an eyebrow. "When Robert dies. Our poor brave Sweetrobin is such a sickly boy, it is only a matter of time. When Robert dies, Harry the Heir becomes Lord Harrold,.."

 

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I don't think Sansa has any idea what happened to Jeyne for two main reasons. 1) As others have said I don't remember Sansa ever having another thought about Jeyne. If she has, it hasn't been very often and definitely not a deep thought where she actually tries to figure out what happens to her. 2) Even if she did have a thought, I'm not convinced she could've figured it out. In her defense, there's no reason for her to know. Plus, she hasn't even figured out the part she played in Ned's death, which she has much more evidence of. So I can't expect her to figure out Jeyne's fate.

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I am not a huge Sansa fan but i will certainly give her Ser Dontos as an act of genuine kindness and a little courage. He interaction with Sandor is complex but probably positive.

I also do not think she has done anything wrong about Sweet Robin either - she was right and was behaving a a sensible mother/older sister to a Lord. He HAD to become strong and stay alive to get down the mountain. Lyssa should have sent him to Stannis or Eddard as a squire/page. Sansa is playing the sensible parent role . She is being Ned who let Bran climb despite the risks, rather than even her mother who left alone might have babied Bran a little as Lyssa did Robert.

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Winter daughter

Each of our characters are faced with moral/ethical choices. Sansa has yet to really face one, but is perhaps about to re SR.  We will know if she is good or bad depending upon her actions. If she assists LF to kill her cousin, she will be fully on the dark side, rather than just a scared mixed up teen.

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3 hours ago, Maxxine said:

1) As others have said I don't remember Sansa ever having another thought about Jeyne. If she has, it hasn't been very often and definitely not a deep thought where she actually tries to figure out what happens to her.

She does think about Jeyne a couple of times later:

A Clash of Kings -- Sansa II

She missed Septa Mordane, and even more Jeyne Poole, her truest friend. The septa had lost her head with the rest, for the crime of serving House Stark. Sansa did not know what had happened to Jeyne, who had disappeared from her rooms afterward, never to be mentioned again. She tried not to think of them too often, yet sometimes the memories came unbidden, and then it was hard to hold back the tears.

A Clash of Kings -- Sansa V
Sansa knew most of the hymns, and followed along on those she did not know as best she could. She sang along with grizzled old serving men and anxious young wives, with serving girls and soldiers, cooks and falconers, knights and knaves, squires and spit boys and nursing mothers. She sang with those inside the castle walls and those without, sang with all the city. She sang for mercy, for the living and the dead alike, for Bran and Rickon and Robb, for her sister Arya and her bastard brother Jon Snow, away off on the Wall. She sang for her mother and her father, for her grandfather Lord Hoster and her uncle Edmure Tully, for her friend Jeyne Poole, for old drunken King Robert, for Septa Mordane and Ser Dontos and Jory Cassel and Maester Luwin, for all the brave knights and soldiers who would die today, and for the children and the wives who would mourn them, and finally, toward the end, she even sang for Tyrion the Imp and for the Hound. He is no true knight but he saved me all the same, she told the Mother. Save him if you can, and gentle the rage inside him. 

A Feast for Crows -- Alayne II
Despite herself, Alayne found herself warming to the older girl. She had not had a friend to gossip with since poor Jeyne Poole.

The first reference pretty much tells you the tale.  She has no idea where Jeyne is, and tries to avoid thinking about them (or the other people she's lost) because it makes the charade she has to keep up too hard.  By the time she ends up with Littlefinger in ASOS, it's unclear whether she remembers specifically who Jeyne was handed over to (it's not like she has these key moments in her life written down to peruse at leisure, unlike us, the readers).

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Thanks for all the replys! I understand that she can't really help Jeyne in the position she is in but I would think that she atleast is curious about where Jeyne might be? Some may argue that best friends are even closer to each other than siblings (I think this is true with Sansa and Arya). Often when people experience trauma they go over that experience over and over again, I would doubt that she forgot/surpressed the memory of her best friend and most surely not who took her away. She also protested to the Queen when she Baelish volountered to take her so I expect she already knew that Baelish is a shady guy. 

 

 

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