nadabutso

Sansa knew about Jeynes faith

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Posted (edited)

15 hours ago, Jak Scaletongue said:

I wouldn't be surprised if Sansa never asked simply because she to scared of the answer...the quote the OP used is when Sansa is just starting to expect the worse and those expectations of the worst have only been reinforced the longer she spent in KL.  I think she doesn't ask because if she doesn't ask then no one can tell her Jeyne is dead and if no one tells her Jeyne is dead then she can keep pretending Jeyne's fine (and I think she knows she is pretending...I think it's similar to why she doesn't ever ask about Arya - if no one tells her Arya's dead then she can make up whatever story she needs to...she can hope and pretend Arya's fine or in the depths of sadness assume Arya's with their parents).

Basically I think it's a coping mechanism...maybe not a healthy one, but so far decently effective - Sansa hasn't really had the luxury of being able to grieve for any of them anyway so being able to have a *little* bit of hope gives Sansa something "good" to focus on when she can.  Almost like Schrodinger's Cat...they're not *really* dead until someone tells me they're dead and if I don't ask no one will tell me...(I do think not asking about Arya was *slightly* strategic too - no point in continuing to draw Cersei's attention to missing Arya by asking about where Arya is... But on that note, I think the "strategic" idea came later; I don't think Sansa thought of it while the massacre was occurring or even immediately after when she spoke to Cersei.  I think the idea probably came to her after she learned that Cersei didn't know where Arya was either.  Once she learned that no one knew where Arya was, why would she keep drawing their attention to Arya by asking about her? 

But more than anything, I think Sansa just didn't want to know the answer - she wanted to be able to fill in the blanks herself rather than hear Cersei or Joffrey's gloating about her dead and missing friends and family.  When you suspect the answer is "She's dead" would YOU bother asking Cersei?  Cause I sure wouldn't - all she's gonna do is gloat and call you and your friend names and be overall rude and cruel...what's the point of asking Cersei? And that's assuming Cersei wouldn't lie to you and tell you your friend is dead just to get her rocks off!  I wouldn't bother asking anyone about anything if I had been in Sansa's position...she's gonna get lied to and mocked and treated like garbage because she's worried about her friend/sister....I wouldn't bother, I wouldn't get a straight answer and I certainly wouldn't get an *honest* answer so what's the point?

You had me at Schrodingers  ;D But yes might be a coping mechanism. I never expected her to ask Cersei about Jeyne because that would make little sense but as she already knows it was Baelish who "escorted" her away. Some time later she finds out everyone that was serving house Stark in Kings Landing was put to death when they stormed the tower of the hand, so she knows Vayon Poole died days before Jeyne was taken away from her room. Can't find the chapter but she specifically thinks of septa mordane who was put to death along with the rest of the Stark household, she doesn't specifically mention Vayon Poole but i expect she includes the head steward when talking about Stark household in Kings Landing. Sansa knows Jeyne wasn't escorted to Vayon Poole  because he is dead so wouldn't it be logical to ask Baelish where he escorted Jeyne? 

Edited by nadabutso

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On 15/03/2017 at 3:27 AM, Luddagain said:

So far I see nothing to really redeem Sansa as a "good" character. She has taken no risks for another person

*cough* Dontos *cough*

Only because she doesn't swing a sword and kills people in that scene doesn't mean she didn't take a risk in helping him. And she had absolutely nothing to gain from doing so.

Ned as well. If Sansa was truly a cold ice princess she would have left Ned to rot in a cell and aligned herself completely with the Lannisters. Instead she pleaded for his life and protested his execution even when she knew how dangerous that was.

Sansa was in a situation in KL in which a single wrong word could have dire consequences, even a skilled fighter couldn't go against all the white cloaks, so fighting isn't an option, only waiting and biding.

But I guess as long as she doesn't pick up a sword and starts reciting creepy revenge poems some people will always dismiss her.

As to the death at the tourney. Sansa in that scene prides herself for not making a scene like Jeyne did (which I don't quite agree with, but that's why I wouldn't go to a actual, medieval tourney)

Jousting was dangerous business and deaths at tourneys happened in the RL Middle Ages, so people tried to adjust to that.

At that point Sansa pretty much blocked out anything that didn't fit with her fairy tale idea of the world and then misplaced blame when things don't run to her expectations, usually on people who were "safe" to hate because she either knew they would forgive her or were part of the Northern world she tried to rid herself of (or both). i.e. Joffrey attacks Arya and her friend, but Joffrey can't do anything bad! That would ruin the fairy tale! So it must have been...Arya,yes! It's safe to hate Arya, because she was Northern and Sansa could be fairly certain of a reconciliation with her sister (at least more so than with Joffrey). Cersei orders Lady's death? But the Queen can't be bad! She's so beautiful and elegant! It was all Ned's fault for killing Lady! And the ugly, fat king's for ordering it! The Mountain spoils the tourney by killing someone? Well Sansa can't do anything about the Mountain and hating him would put her in danger, so it's all really Jeyne! Jeyne spoiled things by starting to cry!   

In any case her not losing her marbles at a tourney is in no way worse than Arya murdering Daeron in cold blood because he did something she didn't approve of.

As to why she doesn't think of Jeyne... Well part of it might be that Sansa, just like Arya is traumatized and in full survivor mode. We know she does think of Arya, Jon, her father and Tyrion. So it's not like she is incapable of warm emotion. 

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7 hours ago, nadabutso said:

She also protested to the Queen when she Baelish volountered to take her so I expect she already knew that Baelish is a shady guy. 

She didn't protest because Baelish was shady, she protested because Jeyne being taken away looked like punishment and she was confused about why Jeyne wasn't being taken to her father.

Quote

Often when people experience trauma they go over that experience over and over again, I would doubt that she forgot/surpressed the memory of her best friend and most surely not who took her away.

"Often", but not Sansa.  She tries not to think about these things; she explicitly says that, and that she doesn't know where Jeyne ended up.

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7 hours ago, Colonel Green said:

She didn't protest because Baelish was shady, she protested because Jeyne being taken away looked like punishment and she was confused about why Jeyne wasn't being taken to her father.

 

I dont think this is true at all. She protested that Baelish was taking her away not that Jeyne was taken away. She asks specifically why Baelish is taking her away and not Ser Boros. In other words she already knew Jeyne is going away but  she wanted ser Boros to escort her. Sansa was present infornt of the small council when Cersei gave the order about relocating Jeyne so she knows what was said.

Lord Petyr leaned forward.  "Ill find a place for her."

"Not in the city", said the queen

"Do you take me for a fool?"

A game of thrones p.527

 That conversation does not sound like they are planning to bring Jeyne to her father and Sansa knows this because they discussed it infront of her! And lets say she thinks Baelish is not a shady dude but rather nice then wouldn't that give her all the more reason to ask Baelish about Jeyne? If that was the case Sansa might think Baelish found her some serving job somewhere in other words asking and hearing the answer might not be to hard.

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Orphalesian

 

I will grant you that Sansa DID show true courage when she rescued Dontos.  It is her strongest act and again when she almost pushed Joffrey off the Tower. I am not entirely convinced that Sansa did not murder Joffrey. Tyrion thinks she did which is why he tipped out the wine.

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Posted (edited)

2 hours ago, nadabutso said:

That conversation does not sound like they are planning to bring Jeyne to her father and Sansa knows this because they discussed it infront of her! 

Sansa was confused. "I don't understand," she said. "Where is Jeyne's father? Why can't Ser Boros take her to him instead of Lord Petyr having to do it?" She had promised herself she would be a lady, gentle as the queen and as strong as her mother, the Lady Catelyn, but all of a sudden she was scared again. For a second she thought she might cry. "Where are you sending her? She hasn't done anything wrong, she's a good girl."
"She's upset you," the queen said gently. "We can't be having that. Not another word, now. Lord Baelish will see that Jeyne's well taken care of, I promise you." She patted the chair beside her. "Sit down, Sansa. I want to talk to you."

The point of the protest is that she doesn't understand why Jeyne's not being taken to her father, not Baelish specifically.

Quote

And lets say she thinks Baelish is not a shady dude but rather nice then wouldn't that give her all the more reason to ask Baelish about Jeyne?

You've now jumped two books ahead, to when Sansa's with Baelish.  We don't know, at this point, whether she remembers that particular detail; she's given no sign that she does, and she outright says she tries not to think about all the people she's lost.

Edited by Colonel Green

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On 2017-03-16 at 2:32 AM, nadabutso said:

You had me at Schrodingers  ;D But yes might be a coping mechanism. I never expected her to ask Cersei about Jeyne because that would make little sense but as she already knows it was Baelish who "escorted" her away. Some time later she finds out everyone that was serving house Stark in Kings Landing was put to death when they stormed the tower of the hand, so she knows Vayon Poole died days before Jeyne was taken away from her room. Can't find the chapter but she specifically thinks of septa mordane who was put to death along with the rest of the Stark household, she doesn't specifically mention Vayon Poole but i expect she includes the head steward when talking about Stark household in Kings Landing. Sansa knows Jeyne wasn't escorted to Vayon Poole  because he is dead so wouldn't it be logical to ask Baelish where he escorted Jeyne? 

Yeah, I never understood why anyone would think she'd bother to ask Cersei anything!  She knew perfectly well Cersei wouldn't give her a straight answer, regardless of what the question was!  And I don't think she's going to ask Baelish about Jeyne either....because she doesn't want to know the answer (and what are the chances she's going to get a straight answer there, either).  But I do have a sneaking suspicion that Baelish will try to reassure Sansa, when word of Ramsay and "Arya's" marriage reaches the Vale, and that Sansa might have enough info to put two and two together and deduce where Jeyne really is. Mind you, it's merely one of a few scenarios I can currently come up with where Sansa turns on Baelish....there's a few different ways it could go down and maybe Jeyne's fate won't have anything to do with it.  But Sansa *knows* Jeyne went with Baelish, she *knows* Vayon Poole died with the rest of the household, and IF Baelish tries to reassure her that it's not really Arya, just some other convenient Northern girl who just happens to be familiar enough with Winterfell to "pass" as Arya...well, Sansa's smarter than most folk give her credit for (and there are only so many places that Baelish could "conveniently" come across a Northern girl familiar with Winterfell and the Starks).  Though I won't discount the possibility that she continues with her coping mechanism and refuses to see the implications.  But I'm really hoping the news of fArya combined with Baelish trying to reassure her it's not *really* Arya is the catalyst for her to put Baelish in his place (hopefully that place is six feet under or a nice swim with the fish!)

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On 3/14/2017 at 2:29 PM, Magnar of the Dreadfort said:

Did she gets forced into prostitution? I thought she was just hidden a way for awhile and trained to become (f)Arya 

 The wedding night scene makes it clear that she was at least trained for sex specifically, even if she wasn't necessarily being prostituted out to multiple clients. 

 

Quote
Ramsay pulled his hand free and slapped her face. "I was told that you'd know how to please a man. Was that a lie?"
"N-no, my lord. I was t-trained."
Ramsay rose, the firelight shining on his face. "Reek, get over here. Get her ready for me."

 

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On 15/03/2017 at 11:17 PM, Universal Sword Donor said:

Well given that she has was just lectured about HtH, her potential betrothed, I'd have to say it's both that SR needs to be under control and it doesn't really matter if he dies because Harry exists and it only makes her more powerful sooner.

Maybe so, but it's way too early for Littlefinger to be poisoning SR. Harry has to be manoevered into marriage to Alayne and loyalty to Littlefinger - this could take time, it's impossible to say how much time.

Much more likely that Harry is the figurehead for another group entirely - and it is this group that has the motivation to kill off SR at the earliest opportunity.

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57 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Maybe so, but it's way too early for Littlefinger to be poisoning SR. Harry has to be manoevered into marriage to Alayne and loyalty to Littlefinger - this could take time, it's impossible to say how much time.

Much more likely that Harry is the figurehead for another group entirely - and it is this group that has the motivation to kill off SR at the earliest opportunity.

You're not wrong. It's probably less LF poisoning him and more just not caring what happens

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