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Riverlands Noble House Scenario


James Steller

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Imagine you're the head of a noble house in the Riverlands (imagine it’s been around for as long as the others). You and your spouse currently have four children.

Quentyn, your heir, is a 17-year old squire to Lord Willam Blackwood’s younger brother, Ser Vallon. Lord Blackwood has suggested that Quentyn should marry his daughter, Jana. This is a very tense moment, as Lord Blackwood’s youngest son was killed just two days ago. Most say it must have been a hunting accident, while Lord Blackwood is certain that the Brackens murdered his boy. Your wife worries that Quentyn might be also be killed by Brackens if he marries a Blackwood. At the same time, Lord Bruno Frey offers his only child, Emily, to marry Quentyn. Any children who are born to Emily and Quentyn would be heirs not only to your house, but to the Twins as well. Bruno Frey, however, is very disliked for being his grasping tolls, his alcoholic nature, and a rumour that he cheats whenever he jousts at tourneys. Snubbing Lord Blackwood’s daughter for Emily Frey, however wealthy House Frey may be, would be seen as insulting.

Your daughter, Candace, has just become a woman at 14, and you realize that now is the time to find a husband for her. Lord Toby Mallister, a homely and mature man newly widowed without children, offers to marry Candace, though she is twelve years younger than he. Ser Dalton Ames is the son of a newly landed knight, but his family directly serves House Tully. Surprisingly, Lord Arthur Bracken has sent an envoy, forgiving your decision to squire your heir to the Blackwoods. He wishes to offer you a better deal, by having Candace marry his nephew and heir, Harry, while his daughter, Lissa, marries Quentin. It would be impossible to have one without the other, and you know that the Blackwoods might even dismiss Quentyn from Raventree Hall should you agree to the Brackens’ offer.

Your second son, Jason, is now old enough to serve as a squire as well. Lord Henry Smallwood offers him to squire for his second son, Lucas. At the same time, the young Lord Charlton offers to take Jason as his squire, though you know that if you refuse Lord Frey’s offer, Charlton will likely withdraw his own offer out of loyalty to his lord. Ser Kyle Vance, the second son of Lord Vance of Atranta, is going abroad as a hedge knight, and offers to take Jason with him. He will give Jason the chance to explore Westeros, swearing to send word of his progress as often as he can. Your wife is opposed to the idea, while young Jason is eager to see more of Westeros. Lord Vance also offers to betrothe his daughter to Jason, should he prove a worthy squire and return to the Riverlands.

Your third son, Benjy, is a half-wit, and will need to be cared for his entire life. One day, while he is usually out wandering in the godswood, he is found clutching a hysterical 13-year old named Willow, youngest daughter of your master at arms. She claims that he tried to rape her, while Benjy is incapable of communicating his side of the story. While he was previously beloved amongst the servants, they are now saying he must be punished, especially Ana's livid father. Willow was thankfully unharmed, but her clothes were torn, and the experience has traumatized her. Your wife, who you know secretly loves Benjy the most of her children, insists that the girl must be mistaken by Benjy’s intentions, for Benjy is incapable of making such an action. However, you know the smallfolk will not like it if their concerns are ignored to protect your simple-minded boy.

What do you do, and how do you run this household?

Note to the administrators: I assure you this is not a game, this is strictly a hypothetical scenario that is entirely subjective and up to each person who answers.

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It would depend upon the ages of other children, age of the Lord's wives and the capacity for other heirs to be born. If  Bruno has a son then the marriage to Emily is worthless. Same for Bracken's heir. Also the preferences of the kids themselves needs to be considered since an unhappy marriage may produce no heirs. 

On balance the Frey girl is the best choice, but I would try to negotiate for Jason to wed Emily and Quentyn the Blackwood.

I would ignore the Bracken deal - too many strings. if Candace is not too unhappy then Toby Mallister would be a good match.

As to the idiot boy - suggest marriage to Willow.  For a small folk girl this would raise her status and that of her family. promise a degree of protection for the girl should Benjy get uncontrollable. if that is not an acceptable option give lotsa money to Willow and family and lock Benjy away from future problems or ensure that he always is accompanied by a guard.

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Wow. Did William Faulkner write this scenario?

Anyway, to answer this:

First off, I like the Blackwoods more than the Brackens or the Freys. Quentyn will marry Jana Blackwood. 

Candace won't be happy marrying a man who's almost old enough to be her father. Ser Dalton is directly serving the Lord Paramount of my region. She'll get to be close to the Tully family and live at Riverrun.

Jason is going with the Vance knight. And he'll hopefully come home alive and knighted so he can marry the Vance daughter.

Benjy is going to have this trouble for the rest of his life, and I won't always be around to protect him. Sending him to the Wall would be far too cruel, and the Citadel won't take him. Asking the gods for forgiveness, I'll give him a painless death by poison and pass it off as an illness. I comfort my wife, compensate the master-at-arms and his daughter, and pray to the gods for forgiveness.

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11 hours ago, James Steller said:

Imagine you're the head of a noble house in the Riverlands (imagine it’s been around for as long as the others). You and your spouse currently have four children.

 

Quentyn, your heir, is a 17-year old squire to Lord Willam Blackwood’s younger brother, Ser Vallon. Lord Blackwood has suggested that Quentyn should marry his daughter, Jana. This is a very tense moment, as Lord Blackwood’s youngest son was killed just two days ago. Most say it must have been a hunting accident, while Lord Blackwood is certain that the Brackens murdered his boy. Your wife worries that Quentyn might be also be killed by Brackens if he marries a Blackwood. At the same time, Lord Bruno Frey offers his only child, Emily, to marry Quentyn. Any children who are born to Emily and Quentyn would be heirs not only to your house, but to the Twins as well. Bruno Frey, however, is very disliked for being his grasping tolls, his alcoholic nature, and a rumour that he cheats whenever he jousts at tourneys. Snubbing Lord Blackwood’s daughter for Emily Frey, however wealthy House Frey may be, would be seen as insulting.

So what if it's insulting to the Blackwoods.  It's insulting to the Freys to choose a less wealthy and less powerful house.  You insult one whichever girl you pick.  Pick Emily Frey.

 

 

Your daughter, Candace, has just become a woman at 14, and you realize that now is the time to find a husband for her. Lord Toby Mallister, a homely and mature man newly widowed without children, offers to marry Candace, though she is twelve years younger than he. Ser Dalton Ames is the son of a newly landed knight, but his family directly serves House Tully. Surprisingly, Lord Arthur Bracken has sent an envoy, forgiving your decision to squire your heir to the Blackwoods. He wishes to offer you a better deal, by having Candace marry his nephew and heir, Harry, while his daughter, Lissa, marries Quentin. It would be impossible to have one without the other, and you know that the Blackwoods might even dismiss Quentyn from Raventree Hall should you agree to the Brackens’ offer.

Candace has a responsibility to advance the family's wealth, safety, and social position.  Happiness is not a priority.  I would marry her to Lord Toby.

 

Your second son, Jason, is now old enough to serve as a squire as well. Lord Henry Smallwood offers him to squire for his second son, Lucas. At the same time, the young Lord Charlton offers to take Jason as his squire, though you know that if you refuse Lord Frey’s offer, Charlton will likely withdraw his own offer out of loyalty to his lord. Ser Kyle Vance, the second son of Lord Vance of Atranta, is going abroad as a hedge knight, and offers to take Jason with him. He will give Jason the chance to explore Westeros, swearing to send word of his progress as often as he can. Your wife is opposed to the idea, while young Jason is eager to see more of Westeros. Lord Vance also offers to betrothe his daughter to Jason, should he prove a worthy squire and return to the Riverlands.

Send the boy to Charlton.

 

Your third son, Benjy, is a half-wit, and will need to be cared for his entire life. One day, while he is usually out wandering in the godswood, he is found clutching a hysterical 13-year old named Willow, youngest daughter of your master at arms. She claims that he tried to rape her, while Benjy is incapable of communicating his side of the story. While he was previously beloved amongst the servants, they are now saying he must be punished, especially Ana's livid father. Willow was thankfully unharmed, but her clothes were torn, and the experience has traumatized her. Your wife, who you know secretly loves Benjy the most of her children, insists that the girl must be mistaken by Benjy’s intentions, for Benjy is incapable of making such an action. However, you know the smallfolk will not like it if their concerns are ignored to protect your simple-minded boy.

I would send Benjy to the wall, accompanied by a significant monetary donation.  We just have to refocus our goals here.  Justice is not possible because the accused cannot speak.  However, if we focus our goals towards what will serve the best interest of most people, sending Benjy to the wall is the most practical decision.  It will be hard on Benjy but he will have to survive as best he can at the wall.

What do you do, and how do you run this household?

 

Note to the administrators: I assure you this is not a game, this is strictly a hypothetical scenario that is entirely subjective and up to each person who answers.

 

 

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12 hours ago, James Steller said:

Imagine you're the head of a noble house in the Riverlands (imagine it’s been around for as long as the others). You and your spouse currently have four children.

 

Quentyn, your heir, is a 17-year old squire to Lord Willam Blackwood’s younger brother, Ser Vallon. Lord Blackwood has suggested that Quentyn should marry his daughter, Jana. This is a very tense moment, as Lord Blackwood’s youngest son was killed just two days ago. Most say it must have been a hunting accident, while Lord Blackwood is certain that the Brackens murdered his boy. Your wife worries that Quentyn might be also be killed by Brackens if he marries a Blackwood. At the same time, Lord Bruno Frey offers his only child, Emily, to marry Quentyn. Any children who are born to Emily and Quentyn would be heirs not only to your house, but to the Twins as well. Bruno Frey, however, is very disliked for being his grasping tolls, his alcoholic nature, and a rumour that he cheats whenever he jousts at tourneys. Snubbing Lord Blackwood’s daughter for Emily Frey, however wealthy House Frey may be, would be seen as insulting.

 

Your daughter, Candace, has just become a woman at 14, and you realize that now is the time to find a husband for her. Lord Toby Mallister, a homely and mature man newly widowed without children, offers to marry Candace, though she is twelve years younger than he. Ser Dalton Ames is the son of a newly landed knight, but his family directly serves House Tully. Surprisingly, Lord Arthur Bracken has sent an envoy, forgiving your decision to squire your heir to the Blackwoods. He wishes to offer you a better deal, by having Candace marry his nephew and heir, Harry, while his daughter, Lissa, marries Quentin. It would be impossible to have one without the other, and you know that the Blackwoods might even dismiss Quentyn from Raventree Hall should you agree to the Brackens’ offer.

 

Your second son, Jason, is now old enough to serve as a squire as well. Lord Henry Smallwood offers him to squire for his second son, Lucas. At the same time, the young Lord Charlton offers to take Jason as his squire, though you know that if you refuse Lord Frey’s offer, Charlton will likely withdraw his own offer out of loyalty to his lord. Ser Kyle Vance, the second son of Lord Vance of Atranta, is going abroad as a hedge knight, and offers to take Jason with him. He will give Jason the chance to explore Westeros, swearing to send word of his progress as often as he can. Your wife is opposed to the idea, while young Jason is eager to see more of Westeros. Lord Vance also offers to betrothe his daughter to Jason, should he prove a worthy squire and return to the Riverlands.

 

Your third son, Benjy, is a half-wit, and will need to be cared for his entire life. One day, while he is usually out wandering in the godswood, he is found clutching a hysterical 13-year old named Willow, youngest daughter of your master at arms. She claims that he tried to rape her, while Benjy is incapable of communicating his side of the story. While he was previously beloved amongst the servants, they are now saying he must be punished, especially Ana's livid father. Willow was thankfully unharmed, but her clothes were torn, and the experience has traumatized her. Your wife, who you know secretly loves Benjy the most of her children, insists that the girl must be mistaken by Benjy’s intentions, for Benjy is incapable of making such an action. However, you know the smallfolk will not like it if their concerns are ignored to protect your simple-minded boy.

 

What do you do, and how do you run this household?

 

Note to the administrators: I assure you this is not a game, this is strictly a hypothetical scenario that is entirely subjective and up to each person who answers.

 

First i wouldn't send the main son to foster anywhere he needs to be here not listening to some other lord.

Anyway marry son to the freys and girl to mallister.

Well too bad the son is a half-wit but still search for a marriage as for the girl that cried rape get her a real taste of it,sadly her mother/brothers and father would have to go bellow ground as well. I would need a new master of arms,perhaps some of lord frey sons would fill the position

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Ok, first we go to my heir who have a good choice. He can either marry the Blackwoods (and I assume that taking him as a squire was something they did out of favor?) or the Freys. And in one case - the freys, the reward might be insanely high. 

Sure, Lord Frey might get a son, but he is not insisting on their family name to pass on which means that in two generations The Twins will belong to my family and carry my family name. There won´t be any Freys anymore! And if we have borders, then the entire territory falls under my grandsons judisdiction - a grandsom with my family name. I take that offer immediately. 

Edit: And if said son is born then he could always suffer an "accident" CK2 style. The world is such an unforgiving place for those unable to defend themselves. My third son would have been hanged if he had been smallfolk. So why not carry on that tradition. 

Secondly, I disagree that I need find a husband for Candace. She is only 14. However, probing the markwet might be a good idea and Toby Mallister do give a good offer. However, the age diffirence is a bit large and will they be able to produce children? I am also a bit worried - why did he widow his last wife? And no children from said marriage? Something doesn´t seem to be right here. The other two options I dismiss out of hand. I can´t see what is the benefit marrying a knight who serve the Tullys. They serve, that doesn´t mean the have influence. And I will not insult my relation with the Blackwoods (who my son squired for) by accepting the Bracken offer. Especielly not when I won´t allow Quentin to marry the Blackwoods. So, I investigate more in the Mallisters, sending out my spies if I have those or look out for gossip while I wait for more offers on my daughter. Again, not in a hurry here. 

Third, all these offers for squiring seem pretty similiar. No real top notch offer. Lord Charlton might be a lord, but he is third tier, while Smallwood and Vance are second tier. Still, they offer only second sons. But then, my son is no 2 as well. In general I think the Vance offer is a good one and the marriage might be an extra bonus. And he gets to see Westeros and could do a name for himself. 

Fourth, my son is a half-wit and accused of rape. And we don´t know who is telling the truth. On one hand, it is unlikely that the girl lies (and something has clearly happen) but on the other he is not according to me responsible for his actions, due to his mental state. It doesn´t matter if he tried to rape her, because he will be unable to learn that rape is wrong in our society. So, the solution here is that my son from now on needs to be constantly under guard to avoid repetition, and that I throw money at the problem with the servants until the problem goes away. The father might complain that I try to buy myself out of my sons actions, but then I will point out that my son cannot be held responsible due to his lack of mental ability and that he, in the future will be more checked. And if that is not enough for him then I regret that he and his family will leave my sevice. I am not going to throw a lackwit over to mob justice, especially not a lackwit who is my son. 

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2 hours ago, Protagoras said:

Sure, Lord Frey might get a son, but he is not insisting on their family name to pass on which means that in two generations The Twins will belong to my family and carry my family name. There won´t be any Freys anymore! And if we have borders, then the entire territory falls under my grandsons judisdiction - a grandsom with my family name. I take that offer immediately. 

Edit: And if said son is born then he could always suffer an "accident" CK2 style. The world is such an unforgiving place for those unable to defend themselves. My third son would have been hanged if he had been smallfolk. So why not carry on that tradition.

I should say that if Quentyn marries Emily Frey, whichever son does take the Twins will have to assume the Frey name. I figured that was a given so I didn't spell it out in the scenario. But they'd still carry on your genes down the Frey line, if not in name.

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This is probably the best one yet. Nice work.

Quentyn marries into House Blackwood. Having invested so much of his youth there make it dumb to spurn them, especially since there's no indication my house is poor and in desperate need of the Frey's wealth. The fact that anyone taking over the Twins has to keep the Frey name diminishes the prestige that would gain. And if the Brackens did murder a kid, I want nothing to do with them.

Candance's dilemma I would leave to her and her mother's decision, though I would push for Ames. If we wind up at war with the Brackens, eyes, ears, and a voice are Riverrun would be a huge asset.

Jason is going with the Vance knight. The kid is going to need to learn skills and make a name for himself to thrive, and if a fight with the Brackens goes tits up its best if someone is safely away to carry on our name.

Benjy is put under constant guard, and I do whatever it takes to pay off the master at arms with money, lands, titles, marriage offers for Willow, etc. If the guy really won't see reason, then he gets dismissed (with a sizable severance package and me helping him find work elesewhere). My servants can be mollified bit by bit over time, and since there's no indication I'm at risk of an uprising that's a burden I'm willing to take.

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12 hours ago, Canon Claude said:

Did William Faulkner write this scenario?

What can I say? "The Sound and the Fury" is a brilliant novel, and it actually shares some things in common with A Song of Ice and Fire.

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If there's one thing I hate about the Riverlands, it's that this Blackwood-Bracken feud can last as long as it has. People getting killed, land getting disputed, all this bullshit. I'll be damned if I let my family get in the middle of that. I don't know what part of my brain caused me to agree to letting my son squire with either a Blackwood or a Bracken, but now that I'm out of my metaphorical coma and aware of the situation again, I'm changing that as fast as I can without screwing my son out of a knighthood.

I wait until Quentyn is knighted, then I engage him to Lord Frey's daughter. I tell Lord Blackwood that I am not going to have any grandchildren who might be murdered by some Brackens just because of a feud. I'd rather have one of them change their name to Frey and carry my blood to the Twins for generations.

Candace goes to live in Riverrun. I'm going to need Tully influence more than ever once I dismiss both the Blackwoods and the Brackens. Hopefully they're too busy hating each other to be mad at me, but I won't take chances.

Likewise, I send Jason out of the Riverlands as fast as he can go. If something happens to us, then at least Jason will be out of the Blackwoods' reach. Then when he comes back he'll marry the Vance girl.

I give the master-at-arms' daughter a good education (part of which will be telling her that a mentally disabled person who can't even speak his own name can't always be held accountable for his actions) and promise to give her a generous dowry to encourage a good marriage.

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Well, I have always liked the Blackwood's more than the Bracken's and if they've taken my son on to squire then we're probably already close. So I'd marry Quentyn to Jana, and I'd send the best of my guards to keep them safe, which I doubt Blackwood would object to. I'm fairly certain that the murder of a family member would be just cause for war, so if anything happens I'd be more than willing to march on Stone Hedge with the might of my armies, Raventree Hall and Seaguard.

Which brings me to my daughter. I'd much rather have the support of Seaguard than some minor knightly family from around Riverrun, who likely have very little influence over the Tully's.

Jason would go with the Vance knight, for a number of reasons. One: it get's him out of the Riverlands if a war breaks out so at least some of my family will remain safe. Two: Going abroad as a Hedge Knight's squire will be far more beneficial to him than squiring locally for either Charlton or Smallwood. Three: It's what Jason wants. Four: If he lives and gets a Vance wife then that's one more of the major Riverlords tied to my family.

As for Benjy, well it sucks but I can't rule a land if the peasants and my courtiers/vassals hate me for not granting justice. I need their support, especially when I'm about to piss off the Bracken's and Frey's. But I can't be called a Kinslayer, so executing him is out and gelding is cruel. So I send him to the wall; lack wits aren't incapable and though it will be hard, life at the Wall could turn out better than life in the Riverlands for him. My wife would be pissed for this and Jason's thing but she'll have to deal with it.

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21 hours ago, James Steller said:

Note to the administrators: I assure you this is not a game, this is strictly a hypothetical scenario that is entirely subjective and up to each person who answers.

I will play this forum game. first I have my son marry the blackwood  girl, then I have my daughter marry the blackwood girl, then I havethe faceless men kill the lords of each house and I take them both

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Well of course I wed my son to Emily Frey, what I was thinking sending him to Blackwoods, they are heathen who worship trees, fucking trees and dead creepy trees at that, Seven save us, hopefully good Lord Bracken burns that demonic grove. Bruno may be greedy, dishonest drunkard but he is faithful to the gods at least.

I would object to this slander of Lord Mallister as mature as he is 26 years old by the calculations of the same people who call him mature, so I marry my daughter to him, and tell him if she get carried away by Ironborn I will feed him his family jewels.

Let the second son go with Vance, it's better not having him around, he is a second son, he might as well learn early how to be his own man.

Lock Benjy in nice comfy tower, and everybody are happy, he doesn't serve any purpose anyway and his mother still gets to see him. Peasants won't be seeing him any more, they can't say I didn't punish him and if they do, ripping out tongues is always a solution.

Not that I think Benjy is not guilty, if it was some mentally disabled servant heads would be chopped. But there is kinslaying stuff, and I would never hear the end of it from my wife, and besides, he is my son why would he be executed for some servant girl. Benjy will get locked because he wouldn't mind and has no place in dynastic plans, Quentyn would probably get away scotfree if he was in Benjy's place. Out of character now People we are roleplaying feudal lord not Progressive Caucus member, tone down on insanity pleas.

 

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5 hours ago, James Steller said:

I should say that if Quentyn marries Emily Frey, whichever son does take the Twins will have to assume the Frey name. I figured that was a given so I didn't spell it out in the scenario. But they'd still carry on your genes down the Frey line, if not in name.

That certainly reduces the offer. Good you pointed that out, since it was far from given. Its not like the theoretical kids of Lancel and Amerei Frey would have the Darry name, but the Lannister one. Aka Hostile takeover. 

So, it really comes down to my relation with Blackwoods. Because the frey offer is still pretty strong and gives two of my grandsons large amount of land. But maybe there is a reason for them squiring my son apart from ambition. Maybe the have done me large favors in the past just out of the kindness of their hearts. But since you didn´t specify that and since this is Westeros I doubt that is the case. So the frey marriage most likely stands.

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9 hours ago, prcxfo said:

 as for the girl that cried rape get her a real taste of it

A little harsh, no? Its not like you can prove that she is lying. Indeed, the likeliest outcome is that something did happen. And she is well aware of what problem this might bring her. It seems awfully risky for making this up - which might motivate such a punishment.

I would be surprised if this is more than Benjys inability to express himself in an accepted way. Most likely he likes the girl, maybe have been filled with sexual ideas from others and fail to understand consent (or that I, as lord decide who can do what with my human almost-property).

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I have already a good relationship with the Blackwoods, and I needs to keep that going until Quentyn gets knighted, but I don't want to get involved in the next Blackwood-Brackn war. I don't see either option as being without its drawbacks, so I buy time with extended negotiations with both Frey and Blackwood. Quentyn is my heir, so wait and see if a new option will arise.

Lord Mallister seems the best option for Candace. he may not be the prettiest man around but he's not much older than her, and seems a decent enough choice. It also prevents me from having to jump into the Blackwoond-Bracken war.

I think Lord Vance has the best option here. A chance for Jason to wander around Westeros for a while? He'll be delighted. Possible betrothal if he proves a decent squire? Even better! My wife will be disappointed, but all children have to leave home eventually

Benjy is a difficult one. I will put a couple of trusted guards to watch him, and if he shows signs of sexual activity, concede that the girl may be telling the truth and confine him. It's a punishment, and should appease Lord Tully

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I’ll have Quentyn marry Jana Blackwood. I’d hate to have both the Brackens and Blackwoods pissed at me, and for a Frey alliance at that, and history tends to favor the Blackwoods anyway.

 

Candace would marry the Mallister.

 

Jason will squire for the Smallwoods. No need to kowtow to the Charltons, and even if Jason is adventurous, I’d tell him to learn first and see the world second.

 

I’d keep Benjy confined to the castle, with no leave to wander unattended. I’d tell the master-at-arms that because Benjy is a simpleton and that he may not have been cognizant of what he was doing, I wouldn’t feel right banishing my son or mutilating him. But I would tell him that Benjy will not interact with anyone outside of his direct family again unless under heavy guard.

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10 hours ago, Protagoras said:

A little harsh, no? Its not like you can prove that she is lying. Indeed, the likeliest outcome is that something did happen. And she is well aware of what problem this might bring her. It seems awfully risky for making this up - which might motivate such a punishment.

I would be surprised if this is more than Benjys inability to express himself in an accepted way. Most likely he likes the girl, maybe have been filled with sexual ideas from others and fail to understand consent (or that I, as lord decide who can do what with my human almost-property).

in 21 century sure but in westeros everyday business,besides i'll attempt to be as close to Tywin Lannister and Roose Bolton in-character  and a touch of family concern like old Walder Frey so the dumb *girl* won't get any justice from me.

 

 

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  • 2 months later...

I would marry my heir to the Frey daughter to help ensure my son's safety, and to spread my house and get the second most powerful house under my control. Also the Twins make a lot of money as another reason why.

My daughter I would wed to Lord Mallister.

I would let my second son squire for Lord Vance's son and have him betrothed to lord Vance's daughter.

With Benjy I would let the small folk say that the gods already punished him by taking away his wits. After all that is the way people thought in medieval times.

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