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What makes a year in the World of Ice and Fire?


mzso

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Hi!

I so far haven't found any information on this. But it's obviously not based on seasons, but interestingly seasons seem to be based on angle to the sun. (The days grow longer in spring/summer)

So what on earth do the people tie it to. In the real world the concept of the year it's related to the cyclic change of season and perhaps the angle of the sun on the sky. (of course the two happen simultaneously and the former is caused by the latter). But I don't see anything credible in TWOIAF. There's no way for them to to determine the position of the planet's orbit, or even to tell that the earth is circling the sun. And the seasons are apparently independent of this so they can't connect with it. These effects might be explained if their planet is rotating on multiple axes, but has no explanation to how they define a year.

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13 minutes ago, mzso said:

Hi!

I so far haven't found any information on this. But it's obviously not based on seasons, but interestingly seasons seem to be based on angle to the sun. (The days grow longer in spring/summer)

So what on earth do the people tie it to. In the real world the concept of the year it's related to the cyclic change of season and perhaps the angle of the sun on the sky. (of course the two happen simultaneously and the former is caused by the latter). But I don't see anything credible in TWOIAF. There's no way for them to to determine the position of the planet's orbit, or even to tell that the earth is circling the sun. And the seasons are apparently independent of this so they can't connect with it. These effects might be explained if their planet is rotating on multiple axes, but has no explanation to how they define a year.

Well... it seems the seasons and angle were 'normal' once, so maybe they just never changed that. Or a year = 12 moons.

Edit: GRRM said:  Twelve moon tuns to a year, as on earth

SSM, July 27 2008:

[What is the cycle of a year? Why do they count years when seasons are strange?]

Twelve moon tuns to a year, as on earth. Even on our earth, years have nothing to do with the seasons, or with the cycles of the moon. A year is a measure of a solar cycle, of how long it takes the earth to make one complete revolution around the sun. The same is true for the world of Westeros. Seasons do not come into it.

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7 minutes ago, Blue Tiger said:

Well... it seems the seasons and angle were 'normal' once, so maybe they just never changed that. Or a year = 12 moons.

I agree with this. 

However, this quote from Arya in Feast has always bothered me.

Quote

“How many years have you?” the waif asked her once, in the Common Tongue. “Ten,” said Arya, and raised ten fingers. She thought she was still ten, though it was hard to know for certain. The Braavosi counted days differently than they did in Westeros. For all she knew her name day had come and gone.

Obviously this is talking about days, but I would think that the counting of days would influence the counting of weeks to months to years, right?

I don't want to derail too much, but does anyone know anything more about the Braavosi time tracking?

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3 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

I agree with this. 

However, this quote from Arya in Feast has always bothered me.

Obviously this is talking about days, but I would think that the counting of days would influence the counting of weeks to months to years, right?

I don't want to derail too much, but does anyone know anything more about the Braavosi time tracking?

Maybe this just means that they start the year at different date? For example at anniversary of the founding of the city or Unmasking...

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Exactly. The years are measured the same way they are in our world.

What is odd, though, and not to be explained by astronomical laws is the fact that the magical freak seasons of Martinworld also result in shorter days, just as the seasons in our world do.

Somehow, very strong magical laws/effect seem to blot out the sun in winter. How this works we don't yet know. There are only subtle hints towards that direction in the books. Bran notices in his cave that the days grow shorter, and Melisandre prays each night that R'hllor might cause a sunrise the next day. As it happens, there might come a day at the Wall when the sun is not going to rise again. And the Long Night will have begun again.

And there might even have been 'short(er) nights in very cruel and long winters in the past. At least in those lands closest to the Heart of Winter.

It would be pretty interesting to see how the hell the Citadel measures the length of the seasons, though. How can you be (reasonably certain that summer has ended and autumn began, etc.).

2 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Obviously this is talking about days, but I would think that the counting of days would influence the counting of weeks to months to years, right?

I don't want to derail too much, but does anyone know anything more about the Braavosi time tracking?

They might have months of a different length, longer or shorter weeks, and/or a completely different way of measuring long periods of time. If their standard also was the solar year that would be identical with the Citadels but there is no guarantee that they measure time this way.

And they could, of course, have either better or worse calculations than the maesters have, resulting in a slightly different calendar.

TWoIaF includes a small section on the fact that dates gathered from texts outside of Westeros are notoriously different to fit into the Westerosi time line.

There the problem of having an absolute beginning is pretty difficult. I mean, it would be well and good to have a Valyrian scroll talking about an event happening in the year 3,478 after the Founding of the City but when exactly was the founding of Valyria in our Westerosi time line?

Not to mention how difficult it would be to date chronicles beginning with 'in the 15th year of the reign of out good King Durran, the Twenty-Second of that Noble Name...'

In the real world they look for certain astronomical events that repeat itself and can be determined independently by using math, allowing us to make pretty good guesses if there are descriptions of such events in ancient Egyptian and Babylonian writings. But nothing indicates the maesters have figured that out yet...

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27 minutes ago, Blue Tiger said:

Well... it seems the seasons and angle were 'normal' once, so maybe they just never changed that. Or a year = 12 moons.

Edit: GRRM said:  Twelve moon tuns to a year, as on earth

SSM, July 27 2008:

[What is the cycle of a year? Why do they count years when seasons are strange?]

Twelve moon tuns to a year, as on earth. Even on our earth, years have nothing to do with the seasons, or with the cycles of the moon. A year is a measure of a solar cycle, of how long it takes the earth to make one complete revolution around the sun. The same is true for the world of Westeros. Seasons do not come into it.

Keeping around a concept for thousands of years without maesters to study the stars seems strange, even if it was regular at once.


I remember seeing that quote before. But the reasoning is flawed. If the seasons are irregular they can't tell the solar cycle. Unless they only came up with a year with maesters. Even then, how would even the maesters now where in the orbit they are? What's the reference Maybe if there are other planets.

Lengthening and shortening of days is mentioned a couple times. Since this happens randomly it implies that angle of the planet changes randomly. Although there's a bit of a contradiction.
"Nicol argues unconvincingly that the seasons might once have been of a regular length, determined solely by the way in which the globe faces the sun in its heavenly course."

"The notion behind it seems true enough—that the lengthening and shortening of days, if more regular, would have led to more regular seasons"


If the lengthening/shortening of days is not based on "purely" on how the planet faces the sun. How on earth does it happen at all? I can imagine another mechanism than the angle of the planet's axis.

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8 minutes ago, Horse of Kent said:

Which stars appear in the sky would give an indication of where in the orbit they are. Once you get back to the same point again, a year has passed.

The stars give no indication. They don't move to any visible degree, they're to far away. You can't rely on them if the angle of the planet changes randomly. If it doesn't change the lengthening/shortening of days and the change of the seasons independently doesn't make sense at all.

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27 minutes ago, Horse of Kent said:

Which stars appear in the sky would give an indication of where in the orbit they are. Once you get back to the same point again, a year has passed.

Does orbital position by itself change the stars' position enough to tell? In real life, the Earth's axial tilt makes the biggest difference in the stars' positions. If orbital location made a big difference, the actual shapes of the constellations would change due to the differing distances, but the width of our orbit (2AU) is extremely tiny compared to the distance to even the nearest star.

What they could realistically do though is find coincidences between the lunar cycle and the locations of other planets ("wanderers"). Not that the math is easy for that, so it could be beyond the Maesters' ability.

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12 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Exactly. The years are measured the same way they are in our world.

What is odd, though, and not to be explained by astronomical laws is the fact that the magical freak seasons of Martinworld also result in shorter days, just as the seasons in our world do.

Somehow, very strong magical laws/effect seem to blot out the sun in winter. How this works we don't yet know. There are only subtle hints towards that direction in the books. Bran notices in his cave that the days grow shorter, and Melisandre prays each night that R'hllor might cause a sunrise the next day. As it happens, there might come a day at the Wall when the sun is not going to rise again. And the Long Night will have begun again.

 

Yeah, that's the bothersome part. How on earth do the days get shorter if not for the orbital cycle and the angle of the planet?

Blotting out the sun doesn't make the days shorter.

I'm starting to think the answer might be trivial: The whole thing is not well thought out.
(Just like the moss growing on the south thing.)

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3 minutes ago, mzso said:

Yeah, that's the bothersome part. How on earth do the days get shorter if not for the orbital cycle and the angle of the planet?

Blotting out the sun doesn't make the days shorter.

I'm starting to think the answer might be trivial: The whole thing is not well thought out.
(Just like the moss growing on the south thing.)

Or maybe we just don't know yet as it'd reveal to much. 

I can't believe that GRRM didn't give much thought the thing that's the main premise of the books...

What moss are you talking about?

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4 minutes ago, mzso said:

Yeah, that's the bothersome part. How on earth do the days get shorter if not for the orbital cycle and the angle of the planet?

Blotting out the sun doesn't make the days shorter.

I'm starting to think the answer might be trivial: The whole thing is not well thought out.
(Just like the moss growing on the south thing.)

Blotting the sun out was just my way of referring to it. Unless the Others make the sun literally disappear the days can't really grow shorter in an astronomical sense. We will have to wait and see.

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8 minutes ago, cgrav said:

Does orbital position by itself change the stars' position enough to tell? In real life, the Earth's axial tilt makes the biggest difference in the stars' positions. If orbital location made a big difference, the actual shapes of the constellations would change due to the differing distances, but the width of our orbit (2AU) is extremely tiny compared to the distance to even the nearest star.

Many stars are only visible at certain times of the year due to the relative position of the earth, sun and the star. Like Orion is a winter star in the Northern hemisphere.

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If moss really grows on the southern side of things, this can be easily explained. And proves that GRRM thought a lot about this topic...

Maybe what's called 'The North' is actually 'The South'... There's no up and down in space...

And it's false that moss only grows on the north side of things (in the northern hemisphere)... There's just more of it on the north side ... Unless there are other factors affecting it.

http://m.mentalfloss.com/article.php?id=56243

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2 minutes ago, Blue Tiger said:

Or maybe we just don't know yet as it'd reveal to much. 

I can't believe that GRRM didn't give much thought the thing that's the main premise of the books...

What moss are you talking about?

Well, I'd say the main premise is the conflict of people. And random seasons is a simple idea on the surface. But he provided conflicting information.

Arya at one point pointed out that most of the moss grows on one side and that "that's south". In reality it's north (or the opposite the side that faces the sun)

I think it came up somewhere else too, which was mentioned in a thread somewhere.

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1 minute ago, mzso said:

Well, I'd say the main premise is the conflict of people. And random seasons is a simple idea on the surface. But he provided conflicting information.

Arya at one point pointed out that most of the moss grows on one side and that "that's south". In reality it's north (or the opposite the side that faces the sun)

I think it came up somewhere else too, which was mentioned in a thread somewhere.

Only on the northern hemisphere. And if there're no other factors affecting the moss.

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8 minutes ago, Blue Tiger said:

If moss really grows on the southern side of things, this can be easily explained. And proves that GRRM thought a lot about this topic...

Maybe what's called 'The North' is actually 'The South'... There's no up and down in space...

And it's false that moss only grows on the north side of things (in the northern hemisphere)... There's just more of it on the north side ... Unless there are other factors in play... 

http://m.mentalfloss.com/article.php?id=56243

Ah but that doesn't fit. North is North, we know it because it's frozen and southern Dorne is hot. (I didn't say "only")

And I believe the sun is described as shining from the south. (Though I can't recall any specific parts)

4 minutes ago, Blue Tiger said:

Only on the northern hemisphere. And if there're no other factors affecting the moss.


Indeed. See above why North must be the same north as here and why they're on the Northern hemisphere.
Or on they on the Southern and everything's inverted. But then the moss should be also and be mostly on their "northern" (southern) side.

 

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40 minutes ago, mzso said:

Ah but that doesn't fit. North is North, we know it because it's frozen and southern Dorne is hot. (I didn't say "only")

And I believe the sun is described as shining from the south. (Though I can't recall any specific parts)


Indeed. See above why North must be the same north as here and why they're on the Northern hemisphere.
Or on they on the Southern and everything's inverted. But then the moss should be also and be mostly on their "northern" (southern) side.

 

If we assume that Antarctica's direction is 'The North', equator is to the south of it. 

I'm talking about sth like this:

We assume that Westeros looks like this:

Earth:             Planetos:

1 Arctica.        1. The North 

2 Equator.        2. The Summer Isles

3 Antarctica.   3. Southern hemishpere

 

 

But it can just as well look like this:

Earth:           Planetos:

1. Arctica.           1. 'The South'

2. Equator.            2. Summer Isles

3. Antarctica.         3. 'The North'

Therefore, using terminology from planet Earth GRRM might actually make no mistake saying that in the 'northern' hemisphere moss grows on the south side of trees (if we ignore the fact that there are other factors). Maybe this is supposed to be a clue of some sort?

Lol... I created a crackpot theory about 'inverted' Planetos... I... 

I should totally get some rest.

 

 

 

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We know the months are also called "turns" and we are told the cycle of the moon in one of Arya's chapters.

Quote

"All men must serve." And so she did, three days of every thirty. When the moon was clack she was no one, a servant of the Many-Faced God in a robe of blake and white. (AFfC 506)

Combine this with the oft quoted remarks above of Martin about there being twelve turns of the moon a year and what you get is a year of 360 days in Martin's world. However, my guess is that Martin uses the 365 day year that is used, not counting leap years, in America and many countries in our world. How to explain the difference? I would suggest there may be days that are counted outside the turns of the moon - New year's Day and the two solstices and two equinoxes would fill the differences. Perhaps something more world centric like Maiden's Day. Which would also tell us something about the exact timing of the turn of the moon. But that is only my guess.

As a writing tool it is much easier to just use a common calendar and write in each day the events that take place in your fictional world. Constructing whole new calendars is quite another step in world building.

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13 hours ago, Blue Tiger said:

If we assume that Antarctica's direction is 'The North', equator is to the south of it. 

I'm talking about sth like this:

We assume that Westeros looks like this:

Earth:             Planetos:

1 Arctica.        1. The North 

2 Equator.        2. The Summer Isles

3 Antarctica.   3. Southern hemishpere

 

 

But it can just as well look like this:

Earth:           Planetos:

1. Arctica.           1. 'The South'

2. Equator.            2. Summer Isles

3. Antarctica.         3. 'The North'

Therefore, using terminology from planet Earth GRRM might actually make no mistake saying that in the 'northern' hemisphere moss grows on the south side of trees (if we ignore the fact that there are other factors). Maybe this is supposed to be a clue of some sort?

Lol... I created a crackpot theory about 'inverted' Planetos... I... 

I should totally get some rest.

 

 

 

That's what I've been saying... Even if it's like that, the moss should be on their "North". Because that's the shaded side, the cold direction.

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