Moqorro's quote to Tyrion

[Lost Melnibonean]

8 minutes ago, The Sleeper said:

That's your prerogative.

Did you follow the link? The OP is quite long, but it demonstrates that the author has set up The Blackfyre plotline. 

[The Sleeper]

14 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Did you follow the link? The OP is quite long, but it demonstrates that the author has set up The Blackfyre plotline. 

I did. Aegon was set up before hand. It is quite obscure, but in Clash Varys was speaking to Tyrion about the comet foretelling the coming of a king who will come in fire and blood (not exact quote). In the same book we get Dany's visions about the mummer's dragon. Aegon has been set as Varys and Illyrio's figurehead from the beggining. The Blackfyres and the Golden Company are the background/support, not the relevant part about him.

[velo-knight]

4 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

House Blackfyre did not exist until Ser Daemon Waters found it, and presumably,King Daeron II accorded it legal standing. Thus House Targaryen, which was one of the dragonlord families of old Valyria, is clearly older than House Blackfyre. 

I think that argument is a little obtuse on the question of dynastic seniority. The Blackfyres are a Targaryen cadet branch that, if legitimate, would have an excellent claim to be the senior-most branch of House Targaryen. We can acknowledge that the Targaryen institution is older than the history of the Blackfyres, but we must also acknowledge that the Blackfyres have a place in that house as a bastard cadet line of arguably senior lineage.

[Lost Melnibonean]

7 minutes ago, velo-knight said:

I think that argument is a little obtuse on the question of dynastic seniority. The Blackfyres are a Targaryen cadet branch that, if legitimate, would have an excellent claim to be the senior-most branch of House Targaryen. We can acknowledge that the Targaryen institution is older than the history of the Blackfyres, but we must also acknowledge that the Blackfyres have a place in that house as a bastard cadet line of arguably senior lineage.

I expect some maesters will be debating those points soon enough. The only point I am making here is that the red dragon of House Targaryen is older than the black dragon of House Blackfyre. 

[bent branch]

Here is my formulation:

Young-Jon/Old-Aemon

True-Dany/False-Viserys

Bright-Aegon/Dark-????(Probably Varys)

Issues considered:

(1) If Aegon is the false dragon because he is a Blackfyre, then all the other dragons MUST be Targaryens. NO EXCEPTION. Seriously, this is just logic. Either you get it or you don't. Therefore, I don't place Aegon in the false position because it would make almost all the other entries in the formulation wrong no matter how you do it.

(2) Tyrion needing to interact with all the dragons and, therefore, all the dragons needing to be alive. The preceding statement doesn't need to be true if Tyrion is himself a dragon (Aerys' bastard). The "and you" part of Moqorro's statement is actually really tricky grammatically. It can mean that Tyrion is one of the dragons Moqorro is seeing. If this is true, then it is not necessary for Tyrion to actually interact with all the other dragons. That the statement could be taken to mean that Tyrion is one of dragons was explained to me by someone who was better at explaining complex grammar than I am, so you'll have to take my word for it or research it yourself, sorry. Anyway, I don't know of any rule that says the visions in the flames can only be the future.

(3) Brightflame doesn't exist. It is something the fans made up. If Varys is the descendent of Aerion's son, Maegar, then he is a Targaryen like Jon or Tyrion, i.e. the child of a legitimate Targaryen. It really, really, really isn't anymore complicated than that.

(4) These pairings place Targaryens with Targaryens they have been close to Jon/Aemon, Dany/Viserys, and Aegon/Varys (or Illyrio, who is a Blackfyre). Tyrion is separated from the rest because although he has interacted with five of them (Viserys being the only exception), he has not actually been a part of a pairing of dragons.

[Davjos]

11 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

Doesn't work for me. For one I don't see them as a seperate house, but mostly they are not really that much a part in the main sequence. While Martin has spent a lot of keystrokes on them in Dunk & Egg and the World book, refferences of them in the Song of ice and fire are few and far between. Other than background for the Golden Company, possibly Illyrio and some easter eggs for his hardcore fans, I don't see them featuring heavily in the story.

Not to be mean but you did realise the book was called a Dance with Dragons, clearly pointing at the fact the Second Dance will be important, a dance between a Blackfyre(probably) and a Targ(probably). So yeah, they feature heavily. Also just because you don't see them as separate houses doesn't mean Moqorro or even R'hollor doesn't. I do really like your original, almost subversive take on it. 

 

I think Dany is the dark dragon while Jon is the bright one because Jon focusses on fighting the Others and ending the Long Night, but Dany cares about 'trivial' things like a throne and her subjects. I think R'hollor and it's followers would think Jon is bright, both meant as smart and good, but Dany had bad desires/intentions. 

[Makk]

3 hours ago, bent branch said:

(1) If Aegon is the false dragon because he is a Blackfyre, then all the other dragons MUST be Targaryens. NO EXCEPTION. Seriously, this is just logic. Either you get it or you don't. Therefore, I don't place Aegon in the false position because it would make almost all the other entries in the formulation wrong no matter how you do it.

I don't agree with this. The difference is that Aegon is claiming to be a red dragon when he is a black dragon. That is false. 

[divica]

Why doesn t anybody think of quentin as the false dragon?

The guy tried to tame a dragon because of his targ heritage and failed. Therefore he is a false dragon.

It would also make sense in the pairings. danny/quentin true/false  jon/aemon young/old  Aegon/someone  bright/dark

As the other pairs were together recently Aegon would neede to be in close proximity of the other dragon either in the recente past or future (and it isn t tyrion!)

[bent branch]

1 hour ago, Makk said:

I don't agree with this. The difference is that Aegon is claiming to be a red dragon when he is a black dragon. That is false. 

And I don't agree with that. It is obvious that if Aegon is a Blackfyre, then he doesn't know it. It doesn't make him false if he is only claiming what he believes to be true. And I will try to make this clearer. If the ONLY reason you are placing Aegon as the false dragon is because he is a Blackfyre, then ALL the other dragons must be Targaryens. The reason for this is that Blackfyres are also dragons, so if the quality of being a Blackfyre makes a false dragon, then all true dragons must be Targaryens.

58 minutes ago, divica said:

Why doesn t anybody think of quentin as the false dragon?

The guy tried to tame a dragon because of his targ heritage and failed. Therefore he is a false dragon.

It would also make sense in the pairings. danny/quentin true/false  jon/aemon young/old  Aegon/someone  bright/dark

As the other pairs were together recently Aegon would neede to be in close proximity of the other dragon either in the recente past or future (and it isn t tyrion!)

Actually, Quentin is a good suggestion. And did Tyrion meet Quentin? I can't remember. Agree that no matter what, Tyrion can't be one of the matches.

[Curled Finger]

I didn't think we would EVER get to chat about anything again.   I haven't been able to access the site for almost a week.  

Moqorro's quote is indeed intriguing.    I wonder why this priest finds himself with both Tyrion and Victarion.   But that surely has no bearing on what Tyrion was told.   

I fail to see how this quote verifies that Tyrion is not a Targ.   The World Book leaves the possibility open while seeming to undeniably quash the possibility of Cersei and Jamie being Targ bastards.  If the priest bothers to impart this bit of mystery to a clever dwarf it is to give said dwarf a puzzle to solve.  I've always thought that Tyrion being mentioned among these dragons should indicate to him that he is a dragon himself.   Afterall, how often is Tyrion described as snarling over the long course of these books?   It's not as though Tyrion is the only 1 in the midst of the dragons, either.    We have all Jorah and all the Essosi host Dany sports as well as Jon's vast number of associates.  Aegon's group.  Bloodraven's groupies.  In that it seems that all that really separates the Blackfyres from the Targaryens is a simple legal title, they are essentially all "dragons".    It could be as simple as DNA regardless of title.   Someone above was questioning Quentyn's falseness.   Like Stannis, Quentyn has as much Targ in his person as he cares to identify with, which is very little.   Tyrion on the other hand at least respects the majesty of literal dragons.   

[The Sleeper]

5 hours ago, Ethelarion said:

Not to be mean but you did realise the book was called a Dance with Dragons, clearly pointing at the fact the Second Dance will be important, a dance between a Blackfyre(probably) and a Targ(probably). So yeah, they feature heavily. Also just because you don't see them as separate houses doesn't mean Moqorro or even R'hollor doesn't. I do really like your original, almost subversive take on it. 

 

I think Dany is the dark dragon while Jon is the bright one because Jon focusses on fighting the Others and ending the Long Night, but Dany cares about 'trivial' things like a throne and her subjects. I think R'hollor and it's followers would think Jon is bright, both meant as smart and good, but Dany had bad desires/intentions. 

That is not a good example for your argument. The Dance of the Dragons was after all an internal dynastic struggle of house Targaryen. Aegon himself, whatever he is, presents, and probably believes himself to be a Targaryen. For him to be an effective foil he needs support and an army and there would need to be  justification of such support. Hence the Golden Company and the Blackfyres. It's only background.

As for the light/dark dichotomy, the interpretation of obscurity versus reknown has the benefit of being objective. Benerro, Moqorro's boss has already proclaimed Dany as Azor Ahai. They are not like to malign her.

 

[bent branch]

6 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I didn't think we would EVER get to chat about anything again.   I haven't been able to access the site for almost a week.  

Moqorro's quote is indeed intriguing.    I wonder why this priest finds himself with both Tyrion and Victarion.   But that surely has no bearing on what Tyrion was told.   

I fail to see how this quote verifies that Tyrion is not a Targ.   The World Book leaves the possibility open while seeming to undeniably quash the possibility of Cersei and Jamie being Targ bastards.  If the priest bothers to impart this bit of mystery to a clever dwarf it is to give said dwarf a puzzle to solve.  I've always thought that Tyrion being mentioned among these dragons should indicate to him that he is a dragon himself.   Afterall, how often is Tyrion described as snarling over the long course of these books?   It's not as though Tyrion is the only 1 in the midst of the dragons, either.    We have all Jorah and all the Essosi host Dany sports as well as Jon's vast number of associates.  Aegon's group.  Bloodraven's groupies.  In that it seems that all that really separates the Blackfyres from the Targaryens is a simple legal title, they are essentially all "dragons".    It could be as simple as DNA regardless of title.   Someone above was questioning Quentyn's falseness.   Like Stannis, Quentyn has as much Targ in his person as he cares to identify with, which is very little.   Tyrion on the other hand at least respects the majesty of literal dragons.   

I'm not entirely sure what you are trying to say here so I'll just make a generalized statement.

Many people want to claim a Blackfyre through the female line IS a Blackfyre, but Targaryens through the female (like Stannis and Quentyn) are NOT Targaryens. In other words, they want to deny that Quentyn and Stannis are dragons. In fact, any Blackfyre through the female line has to be by this point at least as distantly related to the Blackfyres as Stannis is to the Targaryens (i.e. Grandson to Grandmother). So either Stannis is a Targaryen through the female line and, thus, a dragon, or there are no Blackfyres left. To try to argue otherwise is sheer hypocrisy. Hell, I've seen people argue that Stannis is not a dragon but Ben Plumm is. This just demonstrates how people skew the facts to fit whatever theory they want to believe. To summarize, Stannis and Quentyn are dragons through the female line. If you can't acknowledge this than you have no business arguing that there are Blackfyres still running around the story.

[Lost Melnibonean]

3 hours ago, bent branch said:

I'm not entirely sure what you are trying to say here so I'll just make a generalized statement.

Many people want to claim a Blackfyre through the female line IS a Blackfyre, but Targaryens through the female (like Stannis and Quentyn) are NOT Targaryens. In other words, they want to deny that Quentyn and Stannis are dragons. In fact, any Blackfyre through the female line has to be by this point at least as distantly related to the Blackfyres as Stannis is to the Targaryens (i.e. Grandson to Grandmother). So either Stannis is a Targaryen through the female line and, thus, a dragon, or there are no Blackfyres left. To try to argue otherwise is sheer hypocrisy. Hell, I've seen people argue that Stannis is not a dragon but Ben Plumm is. This just demonstrates how people skew the facts to fit whatever theory they want to believe. To summarize, Stannis and Quentyn are dragons through the female line. If you can't acknowledge this than you have no business arguing that there are Blackfyres still running around the story.

Yeap. Black or red, a dragon is still a dragon, and even little brown girls too. 

[Curled Finger]

13 hours ago, bent branch said:

I'm not entirely sure what you are trying to say here so I'll just make a generalized statement.

Many people want to claim a Blackfyre through the female line IS a Blackfyre, but Targaryens through the female (like Stannis and Quentyn) are NOT Targaryens. In other words, they want to deny that Quentyn and Stannis are dragons. In fact, any Blackfyre through the female line has to be by this point at least as distantly related to the Blackfyres as Stannis is to the Targaryens (i.e. Grandson to Grandmother). So either Stannis is a Targaryen through the female line and, thus, a dragon, or there are no Blackfyres left. To try to argue otherwise is sheer hypocrisy. Hell, I've seen people argue that Stannis is not a dragon but Ben Plumm is. This just demonstrates how people skew the facts to fit whatever theory they want to believe. To summarize, Stannis and Quentyn are dragons through the female line. If you can't acknowledge this than you have no business arguing that there are Blackfyres still running around the story.

Thanks for the Blackfyre lesson.   Wasn't the point but you were upfront in saying you weren't sure about the point I was making.    This conversation spilled over into a personal conversation today where I was asked if these types of dragons include the dead.   It is a good conversation with many angles.   Another winner @One-eyed Misbehavin!   I was only pointing out that it was curious that Moqorro would say anything at all to Tyrion about dragons.   If Moqorro has the gift of prophecy, perhaps he is trying to lead Tyrion to question his own bloodline.   I am asking myself if the statement was put to another character what meaning it might have.    I think this could just be a bit of more fun misdirection at the hands of a Red Priest.    Really, there is only 1 old Targ if Aemon is dead and Varys doesn't count.    Dany is the baby as far as I can tell.  True and false are as your lesson illustrates nicely, subjective.   When I read dark and light I jump to personalities and persuasions not Brightflame or Blackfyre.   I can't come up with a good reason to puzzle Tyrion about any of it if it doesn't relate to Tyrion himself.   

[Makk]

23 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

 Really, there is only 1 old Targ if Aemon is dead and Varys doesn't count.

Bloodraven

[Curled Finger]

12 minutes ago, Makk said:

Bloodraven

Yep, that was my thinking.   I know of no other old dragons.   

[bent branch]

5 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Thanks for the Blackfyre lesson.   Wasn't the point but you were upfront in saying you weren't sure about the point I was making.    This conversation spilled over into a personal conversation today where I was asked if these types of dragons include the dead.   It is a good conversation with many angles.   Another winner @One-eyed Misbehavin!   I was only pointing out that it was curious that Moqorro would say anything at all to Tyrion about dragons.   If Moqorro has the gift of prophecy, perhaps he is trying to lead Tyrion to question his own bloodline.   I am asking myself if the statement was put to another character what meaning it might have.    I think this could just be a bit of more fun misdirection at the hands of a Red Priest.    Really, there is only 1 old Targ if Aemon is dead and Varys doesn't count.    Dany is the baby as far as I can tell.  True and false are as your lesson illustrates nicely, subjective.   When I read dark and light I jump to personalities and persuasions not Brightflame or Blackfyre.   I can't come up with a good reason to puzzle Tyrion about any of it if it doesn't relate to Tyrion himself.   

You know what? You said absolutely nothing to clear up the statement I bolded.

[Curled Finger]

4 hours ago, bent branch said:

You know what? You said absolutely nothing to clear up the statement I bolded.

I don't think you and I are having the same conversation.   I'm not in anyway arguing about Blackfyres, Brightflames or bastards in the male or female line.    A dragon is a dragon.    You don't have to be a Targ in the male line to have anything special.   Magic is magic.   As I recall Daemon Blackfyre,  his mother and father were both Targs.   I'm not sure how anything I said originally spiked your argument.    I think the whole thing is about Tyrion, not anyone else.     

[Davjos]

On 27-7-2017 at 9:10 AM, The Sleeper said:

That is not a good example for your argument. The Dance of the Dragons was after all an internal dynastic struggle of house Targaryen. Aegon himself, whatever he is, presents, and probably believes himself to be a Targaryen. For him to be an effective foil he needs support and an army and there would need to be  justification of such support. Hence the Golden Company and the Blackfyres. It's only background.

As for the light/dark dichotomy, the interpretation of obscurity versus reknown has the benefit of being objective. Benerro, Moqorro's boss has already proclaimed Dany as Azor Ahai. They are not like to malign her.

 

Allright my argument was written way to hastily and therefore a bit unclear. Ofcourse everything you have stated is factually true, and I have to admit I am a bit hazy on Red Priest Hierarchy/R'hollorism in general. But for Dany to be Azor Ahai and gain her personal goals she needs to hurry the fuck up to Westeros. Ofcourse Dany is the clearest candidate for Azor Ahai, but that doesn't mean she isn't the 'dark dragon'. I just wanted to put forward the idea that Jon is actually the bright one for seeing the danger early and Dany the dark one, not because of her evil intentions, but for her complete lack of focus on the real important shit, like saving all of humanity instead of Slaver's Bay and coveting the IT. That's why Moqorro feels the need to guide the 'dark' dragon into the 'bright' light, into the right path. 

 

Returning to me disputing the lack of importance of the Blackfyres. I normally don't like 'meta' arguments but why would GRRM write the Blackfyre Rebellions, the Blackfyres, the Dunk and Egg tales, Bloodraven's history, the origins of the GC, explicitly state the female line of the BF continued etc. if he didn't want to do something with it. And because 'it is known' fAegon and Dany will face off in some Dance, I find that the most logical stage for the Blackfyres to make their 3rd act appearance.