Re-opening an old can of worms on an Old Nan topic for fresh analysis. (Novella content).

[Macgregor of the North]

@direpupy

So you had all the answers yourself but we're waiting to see if I could answer the same as you who are so high and mighty on this forum? Sorry but that's the funniest comment this thread has saw yet. 

Look, we all get you have a real issue with the Nan as the Frey girl theory(you really don't have to contribute you know) but let's leave it there, you have said your piece now and your input will live forever in this thread and we thank you for it, I'll continue this discussion with the other posters who are contributing, while I call you a taxi, because by the content of your recent posts you sound drunk lol. 

That comment was a cracker I'll give you that 

[Macgregor of the North]

Ok, in my OP I had one option out of many that was the Frey girl could have brought her case to Bloodraven or Egg and ask that the wedding be scrapped. In no way did i state anywhere that this would entail a case being brought before the High septon because Ambrose is a traitor guilty of treason against the crown and lucky to keep his head. This could have saw the girl just simply let go with no fuss being made and no annulments needed.

I also never once stated that you did not need the High Septon for an annulment, not once @direpupy so that topic is firmly put to bed now. This particular option entailed the girl asking for if to be scrapped yes, but then things progressing to her getting away from Ambrose but with no High septon involvement at all. Why would Bloodraven take the case to the High Septon when he has the power to decide if Ambrose gets to "keep his wife" as I've stated all through our discussion. She can be just let go and Ambrose can do nothing about it. No High septons, no annulments, nothing of the sort. You (and only you)brought that angle to the discussion and now that we have finally decided that there is no reason for the High septon or the faith to even come in to the equation in any shape or form, then I haven't seen anything else you have brought to this discussion except to debunk it with only the one angle. 

If there's anything else you wish to add refresh what your bringing to the discussion as we have went over your point many times and it is now dead. There never was need for the High Septon, period. 

@Jak Scaletongue @Manderly's Rat Cook

Good points, I'll get to you guys next when I have time today and on the thread will go now that we have put that nonsense to bed.

[direpupy]

2 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

@direpupy

So you had all the answers yourself but we're waiting to see if I could answer the same as you who are so high and mighty on this forum? Sorry but that's the funniest comment this thread has saw yet. 

Look, we all get you have a real issue with the Nan as the Frey girl theory(you really don't have to contribute you know) but let's leave it there, you have said your piece now and your input will live forever in this thread and we thank you for it, I'll continue this discussion with the other posters who are contributing, while I call you a taxi, because by the content of your recent posts you sound drunk lol. 

That comment was a cracker I'll give you that 

No i did not have they answers at first and honestly i came to them because of things you and others said, this is the reason i wanted to see if you would come to the same conclusion.

I certainly do not feel high and mighty if i did i would not be discusing with you i would make statements and leave, wich quite obvieus i did not.

So i do think your comment is an un-called for attack on my person, just because i type a post in haste (do to being busy with work) does not mean you can make rude and insulting comment like you must be drunk.

I do not get your butt-hurt in this because when you started this tread i was not convinced at all, and was comments from people like you that answering my question that slowly gave me the mental picture of how it could work, you should be proud of how convincing you can be.

That i witheld they answers i came up with for a while to see if you would come up with the same conclusion as i did was because i actually came to those answers because of things you posted, but then seemed to ignore again in favor of the its fantasy explanation. That just stumped me thats all.

I do hope they rather insulting atitude you are showing as of late (and not just to me) is just a temporary thing because it does not help to create a healthy discussion.

[direpupy]

2 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Ok, in my OP I had one option out of many that was the Frey girl could have brought her case to Bloodraven or Egg and ask that the wedding be scrapped. In no way did i state anywhere that this would entail a case being brought before the High septon because Ambrose is a traitor guilty of treason against the crown and lucky to keep his head. This could have saw the girl just simply let go with no fuss being made and no annulments needed.

I also never once stated that you did not need the High Septon for an annulment, not once @direpupy so that topic is firmly put to bed now. This particular option entailed the girl asking for if to be scrapped yes, but then things progressing to her getting away from Ambrose but with no High septon involvement at all. Why would Bloodraven take the case to the High Septon when he has the power to decide if Ambrose gets to "keep his wife" as I've stated all through our discussion. She can be just let go and Ambrose can do nothing about it. No High septons, no annulments, nothing of the sort. You (and only you)brought that angle to the discussion and now that we have finally decided that there is no reason for the High septon or the faith to even come in to the equation in any shape or form, then I haven't seen anything else you have brought to this discussion except to debunk it with only the one angle. 

If there's anything else you wish to add refresh what your bringing to the discussion as we have went over your point many times and it is now dead. There never was need for the High Septon, period. 

@Jak Scaletongue @Manderly's Rat Cook

Good points, I'll get to you guys next when I have time today and on the thread will go now that we have put that nonsense to bed.

Yes we where over this point already as you can clearly see from my comment on the top of page 6 in this tread. I brought it up later as an example for an totaly different purpose not to actually argue that it was needed for the theory.

So this is a pretty useless post by you to be honest

[Macgregor of the North]

@Manderly's Rat Cook

I see the benefit of simply accepting this theory is entirely plausible (even though others don't) and therefore explore avenues of "what else it can bring to the story". 

On Nan and the Stark kids, we know Bran loves Old Nan from the text, even though he was annoyed with her story telling that day, which is excusable due to the fact he has had his life dramatically changed by being crippled. 

I think the other Stark kids will have had a good connection with her also, and by that I mean Ned and Lyannas generation also. She was still very much "Old"Nan when they were children too so all the story telling sessions the current kids got, Lyanna and Ned will have gotten also, until Ned went off to the Vale anyway. 

As to Nan and Lyanna. Yeah I can see Lyanna talking with Nan of her betrothal to Robert and her worries on the matter, certainly. She definitely had her worries about it. If Nan had been through what we are theorising in that she left a marriage to take to the road with another party then of course Nan could have offered Lyanna some input on the topic which Lyanna may have had in her mind when weighing up her options in the Riverlands. 

I view all that as plausible for sure. 

What I don't really agree with though is Lyanna bringing the idea of loving another man to the table in their discussions. I have not been able to bring myself into the camp that believes Lyanna travelled back to Winterfell after Harrenhal for whatever reason. I think she stayed in the south in preparation for the wedding while Benjen returned home allowing Rickard to make the journey south. 

So while I agree with what your saying as a possible way this theory works in to the story I don't think Lyanna had any thought to leave Robert for Rhaegar during discussion with Nan, but most certainly could have went to her with her issues on marrying Robert and Nan could have told her own story perhaps. 

I'll think on more ways this theory could effect or have effected the story and get back.

[Macgregor of the North]

@direpupy

So now we are both clear where we stand I'll expect future contributions from you on the thread to be with the intention of discussing its plausibility then yes? Since you have stated you are becoming more and more convinced. You have gave your best shot at debunking with the angle you came with and it didn't work so why not just have fun with the rest of us from now on?. Let your mind open up to all the possibilities 

And the only one butt hurt is you. If the truth stings you, then that is not my issue, I simply tell the truth on here. Your post very much made you come across as high and mighty like your answer was the only plausible answer and my answer on how she could have turned to Dunk and Egg for help was weak in comparison.

[direpupy]

2 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

@direpupy

So now we are both clear where we stand I'll expect future contributions from you on the thread to be with the intention of discussing its plausibility then yes? Since you have stated you are becoming more and more convinced. You have gave your best shot at debunking with the angle you came with and it didn't work so why not just have fun with the rest of us from now on?. Let your mind open up to all the possibilities 

And the only one butt hurt is you. If the truth stings you, then that is not my issue, I simply tell the truth on here. Your post very much made you come across as high and mighty like your answer was the only plausible answer and my answer on how she could have turned to Dunk and Egg for help was weak in comparison.

Yes the tread should move on to discusing how they get to the North and how her becoming Old Nan would work and what it ads to the story and narrative.

If you where not butt-hurt then why did you feel the need to insult me?

I also never said it was they only possibilty, it was they answer to my questions that i myself came up with, there could be other answers that are equally good i just did not see them yet.

But lets please move on from this.

14 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

 

I see the benefit of simply accepting this theory is entirely plausible (even though others don't) and therefore explore avenues of "what else it can bring to the story". 

On Nan and the Stark kids, we know Bran loves Old Nan from the text, even though he was annoyed with her story telling that day, which is excusable due to the fact he has had his life dramatically changed by being crippled. 

I think the other Stark kids will have had a good connection with her also, and by that I mean Ned and Lyannas generation also. She was still very much "Old"Nan when they were children too so all the story telling sessions the current kids got, Lyanna and Ned will have gotten also, until Ned went off to the Vale anyway. 

As to Nan and Lyanna. Yeah I can see Lyanna talking with Nan of her betrothal to Robert and her worries on the matter, certainly. She definitely had her worries about it. If Nan had been through what we are theorising in that she left a marriage to take to the road with another party then of course Nan could have offered Lyanna some input on the topic which Lyanna may have had in her mind when weighing up her options in the Riverlands. 

I view all that as plausible for sure. 

What I don't really agree with though is Lyanna bringing the idea of loving another man to the table in their discussions. I have not been able to bring myself into the camp that believes Lyanna travelled back to Winterfell after Harrenhal for whatever reason. I think she stayed in the south in preparation for the wedding while Benjen returned home allowing Rickard to make the journey south. 

So while I agree with what your saying as a possible way this theory works in to the story I don't think Lyanna had any thought to leave Robert for Rhaegar during discussion with Nan, but most certainly could have went to her with her issues on marrying Robert and Nan could have told her own story perhaps. 

I'll think on more ways this theory could effect or have effected the story and get back.

I rather like this idea Harrenhal is not that far from where Whitewalls use to be and there is if i remember correctly still a village called whitewalls, so knowing Nan's story she might have passed the village and remembered the story. This could have contributed to her desicion on leaving with Rhaegar.

[Macgregor of the North]

@direpupy if you think you were insulted I can't help you there mate. We have had many many discussions and I'm quite sure you would genuinely know when I was insulting you, which I wouldn't do. I could easily say that the way you were "waiting to see if I came to your conclusion" was insulting (and you certainly have came across as smug a few times) but I'm a big boy with thick skin so don't really let it bother me that way.  

I don't see why you felt the need to do that though when all you needed to do was present your conclusions and discuss them with me and the other posters instead of holding back your answers to see if we we're up to scratch in comparison with you. 

I don't get that logic, if you have things to say that can help this thread then by all means share them with me and the others but don't play games. I'm about book discussion here, not silly tit for tats and nonsense.

so yes. Let's indeed move on. 

[Macgregor of the North]

On 22/03/2017 at 5:19 PM, Jak Scaletongue said:

Without getting into whether Old Nan=Lady Butterwell, IF Lady Butterwell did decide to escape her husband then why would she tell anyone who she *really* is?  It's not really rocket science that if you're running from something then telling people who you *really* are is stupid. If she's smart enough to come up with an escape plan then she's probably smart enough to realize she needs an alias and a half-decent cover story.

  She's probably also smart enough to realize that the man who already told Lord Butterwell he could keep his wife probably isn't going to help her escape said husband, so she'd need to look elsewhere for help. 

That's all assuming she *was* smart enough to plan an escape and leave her disgraced husband.  If she wasn't smart enough then she likely wouldn't have even put more than a passing thought into escaping her husband, or actually go through with, let alone not get caught shortly afterwards.  So, if she DID manage to successfully escape Butterwell, then she's got to have *some* street smarts - and using an alias would be...third step maybe (I'd put food and warm clothes ahead of alias for a successful escape - doesn't matter how good your alias is if you can't remember to pack a bit of food and warm clothes for a journey of indeterminate length!).

I definitely like the idea of Old Nan=Lady Butterwell, and I can see how it could work....but at the same time there are a lot of difficulties with it as well.  At the very least, I don't see why we can't speculate about the possibility - it's not like we have anything else to do! (And gods know it's not the weirdest or worst theory on these boards!).  It's not like we're ever going to come to a consensus on a lot of this stuff until ALL the books are out - so we've got a good 20+ years before we're going to have any conclusive answers.  And who knows, GRRM might not even give us any conclusive answers for Old Nan (among other things we may never get a conclusive answer for), letting us speculate wildly for generations to come!

I fully agree that it is less likely she turned to Bloodraven to get her "out" from the marriage but I had to put it in the list of possibilities because the text shows he has the power to decide if Ambrose keeps his wife or not. 

I agree with all the last parts you say. We may never get full closure on Nans origin but we can certainly speculate on this theory, it is by no means a non starter. It is very very hard to straight up shoot down if we look at all the angles, and in comparison to many theories kicking around, this one is certainly high on the list of topics worthy of discussion, the multiple pages shows that. 

The good thing about it is that if there is any truth to this theory, the Winterfell Novella would clear it up. And that hopefully won't be twenty years away. If GRRM finishes it fully after Winds (I think he has the story pretty much sorted in his head) I think it will become available before being packaged as a "three" with two other Novellas to give us something to read before ADOS.

Yes, im enthusiastic about that lol, but somebody's gotta be. 

[direpupy]

26 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

(and you certainly have came across as smug a few times)

Not my intension, apologies if it felt that way.

[Macgregor of the North]

Just now, direpupy said:

Not my intension, apologies if it felt that way.

This forum is awash with people with elitist points of view on these books so it is hard to differentiate between those who are like that and those who aren't sometimes when all we have is typed words to go by. I'd love if everybody on this forum was just straightforward and nice and respectful all the time but it ain't like that so we all get our wires crossed and touchy discussions happen everyday where people read others wrongly and so on.

We have had loads of discussions though on a few topics so I'm sure we can dust ourselves off and leave any sour points behind. No hard feelings. 

By the way, the idea that if the girl went to Bloodraven with her issue, but she was told that she was Ambroses property, and that prompted her to leave, is certainly a plausible angle for how she throws in with Dunk and Egg.

  

 

[Macgregor of the North]

1 hour ago, direpupy said:

I rather like this idea Harrenhal is not that far from where Whitewalls use to be and there is if i remember correctly still a village called whitewalls, so knowing Nan's story she might have passed the village and remembered the story. This could have contributed to her desicion on leaving with Rhaegar.

It is said in the World book the castle was built beside the Gods Eye so is in that area by the sounds of it. 

It is quite a cool thought actually that Lyanna may have thought of Nans story if she was beside Harrenhal and the Gods eye while pondering her next decisions. So if the girl was Nan and told Lyanna of Whitewalls and how she fled her own marriage in her youth I suppose Lyanna being near the area could have brought back some thoughts of that story while she possibly planned to flee her own upcoming marriage. 

Thinking on how Old Nan fared ok in the end may have comforted Lyanna so she felt that absconding with Rhaegar may have not been that bad for her. 

All speculation of course but with some possibility attached to it. 

[Manderly's Rat Cook]

@direpupy and @Macgregor of the North I'm glad the two of you could work this out,  and we're not stuck at the same point in the discussion anymore 

As to the idea that Lyanna stayed in Harrenhal; this makes sense, but it would also diminish the role of Old Nan, to someone who just told a story, which doesn't really require that she's a runaway bride herself. Any story of a runaway bride would've worked in this context, so I've been thinking about what other purpose there could be. And I assume there are several smaller ones. 

I got back to thinking about the uniqueness of a wet nurse that could read and write, and Old Nan spending a lifetime on reading all the books in the WF library to generations of Stark children. And I tried to connect this to "all crows are liars"... (First I thought that that sentence would be connected to Bloodraven, but Bloodraven is only one crow, and no matter how many ravens he may also be,  he'll never be ALL crows.) I think that Old Nan found something about the origins of the Night's Watch in one of those books,  something about their original purpose, that would turn all of them into a liar, simply by saying his vows. I obviously don't know what this secret is, and I suppose it belongs in another thread, but I think one of her stories about this subject, may have influenced Benjen's decision to join the NW, and that Benjen may have been on a decades long quest to find out the truth about the NW, the wildlings, and the Others.

If Old Nan influenced both Lyanna in her decision to run away,  by telling her own story, and also influenced Benjen's decision to join the NW, and also find out more about NW history, the purpose of her (presumed) history becomes more clear. The combination of a runaway bride,working as a common wet nurse, who is extremely knowledgeable of Westerosi history due to her ability to read, and spending her life with children who like stories, has influenced many events that are vital to the story, if they turn out to be true. 

I hope we'll meet Benjen again in Winds, so we can hopefully find out if his decision to join the watch was influenced by an Old Nan story, about how the NW had forgotten their own history. 

[Manderly's Rat Cook]

Here's some really wild further speculation ;

I think that the books containing information on the original purpose of the NW may have been destroyed in the fire in the WF library, or may have been in the book that Lord Bolton burned in Harrenhal. It's also quite likely that Old Nan is dead, so the information in her head could be lost... But what if she read from this book in front of the weirwood, to one of the Stark children in her younger days? This would open up the possibility of Bran finding out the truth through the weirnet, and may even have influenced Bloodraven's decision to leave the Wall. This is rather wild speculation,  but worth a thought I think. 

[Macgregor of the North]

27 minutes ago, Manderly's Rat Cook said:

@direpupy and @Macgregor of the North I'm glad the two of you could work this out,  and we're not stuck at the same point in the discussion anymore 

As to the idea that Lyanna stayed in Harrenhal; this makes sense, but it would also diminish the role of Old Nan, to someone who just told a story, which doesn't really require that she's a runaway bride herself. Any story of a runaway bride would've worked in this context, so I've been thinking about what other purpose there could be. And I assume there are several smaller ones. 

I got back to thinking about the uniqueness of a wet nurse that could read and write, and Old Nan spending a lifetime on reading all the books in the WF library to generations of Stark children. And I tried to connect this to "all crows are liars"... (First I thought that that sentence would be connected to Bloodraven, but Bloodraven is only one crow, and no matter how many ravens he may also be,  he'll never be ALL crows.) I think that Old Nan found something about the origins of the Night's Watch in one of those books,  something about their original purpose, that would turn all of them into a liar, simply by saying his vows. I obviously don't know what this secret is, and I suppose it belongs in another thread, but I think one of her stories about this subject, may have influenced Benjen's decision to join the NW, and that Benjen may have been on a decades long quest to find out the truth about the NW, the wildlings, and the Others.

If Old Nan influenced both Lyanna in her decision to run away,  by telling her own story, and also influenced Benjen's decision to join the NW, and also find out more about NW history, the purpose of her (presumed) history becomes more clear. The combination of a runaway bride,working as a common wet nurse, who is extremely knowledgeable of Westerosi history due to her ability to read, and spending her life with children who like stories, has influenced many events that are vital to the story, if they turn out to be true. 

I hope we'll meet Benjen again in Winds, so we can hopefully find out if his decision to join the watch was influenced by an Old Nan story, about how the NW had forgotten their own history. 

I think she stayed in the south but not Harrenhal, possibly in the Vale with her family on Jocelyn Starks side learning how to be a good southern wife and all that jazz or possibly at Riverrun, or even dividing her time between the vale and riverrun. That's not here nor there though and is discussion for another thread. I don't think Nan is diminished to simply a storyteller talking about any old runaway bride if she is telling from her own viewpoint and experiences. This was a good example you brought up and is a good addition to the thread.

Ive been thinking about Nan and how you touch on her influencing Ben. When he returns to the North after Harrenhal, I think he is the last Stark teen left while all the others including his father are away to the wedding of his older brother, and then to war while he is stuck at home. With Old Nan ill add.

So yeah I could see her filling his head with things that could include Nights watch history she has learned in books which may set him on a path to wishing to take the black. That's a possibility sure.

We are allegedly getting to learn why Ben took the black IIRC so im looking forward to that. I think there is more to it than he heard the brother at Harrenhals pleas for recruits and that decided him. Im sure theres more to it than that but whether it be because Nan told him the Nights watch true history and true purpose and it moved him, or he has some knowledge of important things that it is best he is at the wall keeping his secrets im not sure.

One thing I can see though is when he was the Stark in Winterfell after everyone was in the south he would have had plenty time to listen to Old Nans stories.

[direpupy]

2 hours ago, Manderly's Rat Cook said:

@direpupy and @Macgregor of the North I'm glad the two of you could work this out,  and we're not stuck at the same point in the discussion anymore 

As to the idea that Lyanna stayed in Harrenhal; this makes sense, but it would also diminish the role of Old Nan, to someone who just told a story, which doesn't really require that she's a runaway bride herself. Any story of a runaway bride would've worked in this context, so I've been thinking about what other purpose there could be. And I assume there are several smaller ones. 

I got back to thinking about the uniqueness of a wet nurse that could read and write, and Old Nan spending a lifetime on reading all the books in the WF library to generations of Stark children. And I tried to connect this to "all crows are liars"... (First I thought that that sentence would be connected to Bloodraven, but Bloodraven is only one crow, and no matter how many ravens he may also be,  he'll never be ALL crows.) I think that Old Nan found something about the origins of the Night's Watch in one of those books,  something about their original purpose, that would turn all of them into a liar, simply by saying his vows. I obviously don't know what this secret is, and I suppose it belongs in another thread, but I think one of her stories about this subject, may have influenced Benjen's decision to join the NW, and that Benjen may have been on a decades long quest to find out the truth about the NW, the wildlings, and the Others.

If Old Nan influenced both Lyanna in her decision to run away,  by telling her own story, and also influenced Benjen's decision to join the NW, and also find out more about NW history, the purpose of her (presumed) history becomes more clear. The combination of a runaway bride,working as a common wet nurse, who is extremely knowledgeable of Westerosi history due to her ability to read, and spending her life with children who like stories, has influenced many events that are vital to the story, if they turn out to be true. 

I hope we'll meet Benjen again in Winds, so we can hopefully find out if his decision to join the watch was influenced by an Old Nan story, about how the NW had forgotten their own history. 

wel they important part of Nan telling the story is that Lyanna knows this actually happened and is not just a story/fairy tale, so in that regard i do not think that diminishes her role.

I like they idea that she did influence other Stark children and Benjen certainly seems an obvieus candidate for this, so i join you in hoping we will see Benjen again.