Macgregor of the North

Re-opening an old can of worms on an Old Nan topic for fresh analysis. (Novella content).

136 posts in this topic

22 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

 

Infact, it may even be looked on as strange that a girl born of the North would know so much about things in places out with the North,

No? A person is perfectly capable of being interested in and knowledgeable about areas they don't  live in or have never even witnessed.  She is old and so had a lot of time to accumulate knowledge from travelers. envoys, wandering bards and , if she is literate, books.

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20 minutes ago, Orphalesion said:

No? A person is perfectly capable of being interested in and knowledgeable about areas they don't  live in or have never even witnessed.  She is old and so had a lot of time to accumulate knowledge from travelers. envoys, wandering bards and , if she is literate, books.

What you say here actually strengthens the possibility this girl is Nan. 

And I said "may even". I wasn't talking with undoubted certainty. 

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5 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

What you say here actually strengthens the possibility this girl is Nan. 

And I said "may even". I wasn't talking with undoubted certainty. 

Personally I don't have troubles with the girl being Nan or not, I was just objecting to the argument that her having knowledge about an area she doesn't live in might point towards her originating from or having lived somewhere else.

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1 minute ago, Orphalesion said:

Personally I don't have troubles with the girl being Nan or not, I was just objecting to the argument that her having knowledge about an area she doesn't live in might point towards her originating from or having lived somewhere else.

I wasn't "arguing" that point. I said "may even". It was a simple breezy observation added in that "some" may make. If you only saw that small part of the whole large post as worthy of discussing then I suppose our short lived chat is over?. Unless you want to discuss the real possibility this girl is Nan?. 

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Posted (edited)

16 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

 

On 16/03/2017 at 10:37 AM, Macgregor of the North said:

A question arises now that possibly @The Weirwoods Eyes  can help me with. If the girl has been lactating already for a while in her pregnancy (I know some mothers can begin quite early) could she begin feeding baby Brandon while still pregnant with her own child?. I'm not too clued up on that matter but i can't see why not really because mothers have premature babies that they nurse don't they?. 

 
 
 

Nursing while pregnant is how babies get rickets. This leads to very  un-knightly children.   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rickets    

 

 
 
 

That's absolute bollocks mate.

The issue with breastfeeding and Vitamin D is this. When Ancient people moved into the northern hemisphere they developed paler skin, this was to facilitate a greater absorption of sunlight thus enabling better Vitamin D conversion.  

But several factors have led to some mothers and children being unable to absorb sufficient sunlight for adequate Vit D creation. Migration, meaning many people living in northern countries now have darker skin which is less able to perform the conversion, traditional dress which covers too much skin to allow sufficient absorption and the widespread use of extremely high factor sunscreens.

This combination has led to an increase in Rickets. Which had previously seen a decline due to the improvement of air quality in previously industrial areas. So basically more sunlight gets through due to the decrease in smog.   And the widespread improvement in diet focussed upon the wider availability and affordability of meat, dairy and eggs. All of which contain Vit d naturally and in a form which we find easy to utilise.  Actually, the movement of farmed animals to indoor systems is also a contributory factor in the rise of rickets.  Post WWII there has been a large shift to indoor systems and those who only access caged hens eggs, factory farmed meats etc will consume considerably less Vit D than someoen who can afford organic outdoor reared eggs, dairy and meats.  

So back to the breast! The issue at hand is not that Breastmilk is inherently lacking in Vit D, but rather that Formula milk is already fortified with it.  So an infant being formula fed does not require a supplement. But one breastfed by a mother who say- is darker skinned, wears a hijab, or uses a lot of high factor sunscreen, & only eats cheaper factory farmed or processed foods, would likely be in need of supplementary Vit D.  Breastmilk contains sufficient Vit d for babies who are not covered in high factor sunscreen though and whose mothers do not have a restricted ability to make Vit D themselves and access a diet with high quality outdoor reared animal products.  

As with all Government advice though the suggestion of a Vit D supplement for exclusively breastfed infants is given to all, as a blanket advisory.  

As to nursing through pregnancy. No this does not cause rickets. Again it would come down to if the mother is able to obtain enough vit D from the sun and her diet to build a healthy foetus, supply her breastmilk and keep healthy herself. in that order.   

Many women, myself included breastfeed through a pregnancy, indeed I've known friends who were breastfeeding two children and carrying a pregnancy and don't have a child with Rickets. And historically most women would still be nursing the older child to some degree when a pregnancy occurs as pre-birth control era the protection provided by breastfeeding would be the primary cause of pregnancy spacing as it still is in many cultures around the world, breastfeeding Amenorrhea gives reliably 6 months of contraceptive cover in exclusively breastfed infants who are not given access to a dummy, or having their feeds spaced or restricted at all.  This can extend up to 18 months and even beyond. But it varies greatly, being longer in women who have a less nutritious diet and shorter in western women who have access to high protein diets.  So we can assume that many thousands of women in the world today and historically have routinely breastfed throughout their pregnancies. And Rickets is not a major issue in societies where these women & their babies have the ability process and access to adequate sunshine levels and foods which contain natural vit D in high quantities.  

There is a reason Rickets was a disease of the poor in industrial Britain. Namely, smog, women & children spending excessive hours inside in factories, mines etc. poor quality nutrition and inability to access fresh dairy, meat and eggs etc. 

 

Edited by The Weirwoods Eyes
Added some more info.

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@MacGregor of the North.

I'll answer the other question in a bit. i just have to pop my car in for it's MOT. But basically yes and no. 

 

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Just now, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

@MacGregor of the North.

I'll answer the other question in a bit. i just have to pop my car in for it's MOT. But basically yes and no. 

 

Cheers mate ill check back when you pop back on.

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@Macgregor of the North

Right car dropped off

Basically,  women usually start producing colostrum at around 20 weeks gestation. Some earlier, some later. Some in copious amounts some only a little. How much women leaks is not indicative of her ability to make enough breastmilk post birth

 And yes you can nurse theoretically a baby whilst pregnant with your first. But it would be unusual to be able to produce enough milk in a first-time pregnancy to be the exclusive source of nutrition for a baby. Highly unusual, but not impossible, it has been known for fathers to be able to produce milk when they put an infant to their chest frequently enough to stimulate production, and grandmothers frequently nurse their grandchildren decades after having stopped breastfeeding themselves.  You'd be amazed at what the human body can do in the right circumstances. It's been 5 years since I last breastfed. But I still get a little milk at certain points in my cycle. 

The reason that it would be unusual and quite difficult though is that the major kickstart for milk production proper is the separation of the placenta from the uterine wall. This happening causes a sudden drop in Progesterone, Oestrogen and a hormone called Human Placental Lactogen. This drop causes a hormone called Prolactin to be made and that causes the alveoli to synthesise breastmilk from the mother's blood and it is this which kicks in milk production properly, the release of Oxytocin as the baby suckles causes the let-down reflex, and this, in turn, tells the breasts to make more milk. If a woman has retained placenta this can cause her to struggle with low milk supply. and errr death like. If she doesn't get ABX quick sharp and the festering placenta manually removed. 

After 3-7 days average post-partum the colostrum will have made the transition to mature breastmilk and the mother has enough milk to exclusively keep one, two and even three babies healthy and alive so long as she feeds the babies frequently enough, and the babies are able to effectively transfer that milk in order to prevent the production of FIL (Feedback inhibitor of Lactation) which is produced when the breasts (individually, which is why it is possible to breastfeed from only one breast.) are insufficiently emptied and this prevents your tits exploding. ;) 

I've simplified this a lot but basically, this is the main gist of what is going on inside women's boobs.

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39 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

@Macgregor of the North

Right car dropped off

Basically,  women usually start producing colostrum at around 20 weeks gestation. Some earlier, some later. Some in copious amounts some only a little. How much women leaks is not indicative of her ability to make enough breastmilk post birth

 And yes you can nurse theoretically a baby whilst pregnant with your first. But it would be unusual to be able to produce enough milk in a first-time pregnancy to be the exclusive source of nutrition for a baby. Highly unusual, but not impossible, it has been known for fathers to be able to produce milk when they put an infant to their chest frequently enough to stimulate production, and grandmothers frequently nurse their grandchildren decades after having stopped breastfeeding themselves.  You'd be amazed at what the human body can do in the right circumstances. It's been 5 years since I last breastfed. But I still get a little milk at certain points in my cycle. 

The reason that it would be unusual and quite difficult though is that the major kickstart for milk production proper is the separation of the placenta from the uterine wall. This happening causes a sudden drop in Progesterone, Oestrogen and a hormone called Human Placental Lactogen. This drop causes a hormone called Prolactin to be made and that causes the alveoli to synthesise breastmilk from the mother's blood and it is this which kicks in milk production properly, the release of Oxytocin as the baby suckles causes the let-down reflex, and this, in turn, tells the breasts to make more milk. If a woman has retained placenta this can cause her to struggle with low milk supply. and errr death like. If she doesn't get ABX quick sharp and the festering placenta manually removed. 

After 3-7 days average post-partum the colostrum will have made the transition to mature breastmilk and the mother has enough milk to exclusively keep one, two and even three babies healthy and alive so long as she feeds the babies frequently enough, and the babies are able to effectively transfer that milk in order to prevent the production of FIL (Feedback inhibitor of Lactation) which is produced when the breasts (individually, which is why it is possible to breastfeed from only one breast.) are insufficiently emptied and this prevents your tits exploding. ;) 

I've simplified this a lot but basically, this is the main gist of what is going on inside women's boobs.

Cheers for getting back to me, even though you have planted a strange image in my head of me 'chest'feeding my two kids Lol!. I have read all you have said, thanks very much for the extra info, I like when you bring some real world knowledge to the table and your experience is obvious so I take it all on board. 

So, 'IF' this girl is Nan and she finds herself near Winterfell when the call goes out for dire need of a wet nurse for Willams son Brandon, she could step in and be the source of baby Brandon's best nutrients? While he is perhaps supplemented by goats milk while Nans pregnancy progresses more and she is able to be his primary nutrient supplier yeah?. 

The reason I used goats milk is because that's what Jon uses at the Wall before the wet nurses come down from the mountains IIRC.

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6 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

I wasn't "arguing" that point. I said "may even". It was a simple breezy observation added in that "some" may make. If you only saw that small part of the whole large post as worthy of discussing then I suppose our short lived chat is over?. Unless you want to discuss the real possibility this girl is Nan?. 

What?

No I read the whole post. It was just that one part I protested, because it's neither a good argument nor very sound reasoning. Sorry I sturggle with the idea of national and regional identity in real life and it pushed a button. 

I'm not sure if Old Nan is related to Walder Frey, because I think we would have heard about it, but it's a better theory than her being Tanselle. Much better. Personally I prefer her being Old Nan.  Then again we might not have heard of it, because GRRM hadn't decided yet that they were related (we can see that in Tolkien as well, where he only later decided that Amroth might have been the son of Celeborn and Galadriel, you wouldn't get that from the text of Fellowship either and there's only a small, possible, very hidden hint in Return of the King)

I agree that Hodor's real name might possibly hint at a Frey connection. And we have that vision Bran had about the girl (possibly, maybe, perhaps Young Nan) and the tall knight(?), who is possibly Duncan, which would provide a connection to Dunc and Egg (hopefully we learn more about that in future tales)

One thing I thought about, but which I'm not sure about is whether we ever learn which gods Nan prays to. If she was a Frey girl, then she would worship the seven (unless she converted) and if she's a Northerner she would pray to the Old Gods (again unless she converted), but I can't think of a reference where Nan is states as praying to either "set" of gods.

The second thing is Hodor's supposed Giant's blood. Where would it come from south of the Neck? From a man she met up North? Or was Osha simply mistaken? Might it even just something Wildlings say about every unusually tall person they meet (i.e. would Osha say the same if she met Brienne or the Mountain? I.e. is it something like being "Kissed by Fire"? 

How do you stand on the idea that Hodor might be descended from Duncan?

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15 minutes ago, Orphalesion said:

What?

No I read the whole post. It was just that one part I protested, because it's neither a good argument nor very sound reasoning. Sorry I sturggle with the idea of national and regional identity in real life and it pushed a button. 

I'm not sure if Old Nan is related to Walder Frey, because I think we would have heard about it, but it's a better theory than her being Tanselle. Much better. Personally I prefer her being Old Nan.  Then again we might not have heard of it, because GRRM hadn't decided yet that they were related (we can see that in Tolkien as well, where he only later decided that Amroth might have been the son of Celeborn and Galadriel, you wouldn't get that from the text of Fellowship either and there's only a small, possible, very hidden hint in Return of the King)

I agree that Hodor's real name might possibly hint at a Frey connection. And we have that vision Bran had about the girl (possibly, maybe, perhaps Young Nan) and the tall knight(?), who is possibly Duncan, which would provide a connection to Dunc and Egg (hopefully we learn more about that in future tales)

One thing I thought about, but which I'm not sure about is whether we ever learn which gods Nan prays to. If she was a Frey girl, then she would worship the seven (unless she converted) and if she's a Northerner she would pray to the Old Gods (again unless she converted), but I can't think of a reference where Nan is states as praying to either "set" of gods.

The second thing is Hodor's supposed Giant's blood. Where would it come from south of the Neck? From a man she met up North? Or was Osha simply mistaken? Might it even just something Wildlings say about every unusually tall person they meet (i.e. would Osha say the same if she met Brienne or the Mountain? I.e. is it something like being "Kissed by Fire"? 

How do you stand on the idea that Hodor might be descended from Duncan?

Hey I'm sorry if I seemed snappy, when I saw you had posted it brought me back to our previous chat on grey characters and the Uruk-Hai (do you recall) where I'm quite sure you labelled me on sight as one of those Lord of the rings "film watchers" who was out of his depth trying to discuss the books, when Infact im certain it was yourself who actually overlooked that the Uruk Hai that Saruman created were a massive, massive part of the book, the Twin towers. 

Lets start again shall we mate?. 

I'll reply to your post again soon once Ive composed a decent reply, cheers for keeping the discussion going.

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1 minute ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Hey I'm sorry if I seemed snappy, when I saw you had posted it brought me back to our previous chat on grey characters and the Uruk-Hai (do you recall) where I'm quite sure you labelled me on sight as one of those Lord of the rings "film watchers" who was out of his depth trying to discuss the books, when Infact im certain it was yourself who actually overlooked that the Uruk Hai that Saruman created were a massive, massive part of the book, the Twin towers. 

Lets start again shall we mate?. 

I'll reply to your post again soon once Ive composed a decent reply, cheers for keeping the discussion going.

No worries dude, I was an ass in that discussion. I hadn't read the Two Towers in like 5 years and really had forgotten about that. I'm currently re-reading the Lord of the Rings btw.

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7 minutes ago, Orphalesion said:

No worries dude, I was an ass in that discussion. I hadn't read the Two Towers in like 5 years and really had forgotten about that. I'm currently re-reading the Lord of the Rings btw.

We're all good mate. You know what, I was so tempted to begin reading the books again the other night but held myself back, I think I'll return to them again soon though, or at least browse through favourite parts and the appendices, which I always loved doing. 

Back to this though, I'll reply on topic momentarily.

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Posted (edited)

@Macgregor of the North

Theoretically yes, but it's a tad convoluted for my tastes in regards to theory building. 

I admit I opened this topic thinking I would out and out hate this theory. I'm not a big fan of so and so is secretly so and so theories. I think it muddies the story too much. we have enough secret identities to be going on with. 

But this one doesn't sound too bad in that Lady Butterwell seems the type to decide to take her fate into her own hands and abandon her Lord Husband for a life of freedom and adventure.  Not that we know a lot of her; what we do know though is she is a bit of a risk taker. And she fancied Dunk. 

So with her Lord Husband tainted by treachery why not? If her father really did not care about his daughter's fate. And she didn't want to be Lady Butterwell (and let's face it what 15 year old would) Why not take to the road with the strikingly physical knight and his squire. 

I can see that part easy enough, and I agree who gives a shit about the High Septon.  She can just slip away and assume a new identity on the road. It wouldn't be hard at all. As to not wanting to give up the life she was used to I doubt she would be thinking about that, but more likely being led by her fanny. I mean it already led her down to the scullery boy and that marble pastry slab; she doesn't strike me as the calculated type. More of a do what you feel kinda lass. Much like her great niece Amerei, who fancied getting air tight in the stables above the prospect of making an advantageous marriage. (Good for you lass!) 

So I can see her following Dunk and to hell with it. And I must admit that Hodor's given name being Walder has always been curious to me.

But ultimately I do think Old Nan is what she seems; a northern woman in service to house Stark.  Her comments re: all crows are liars makes me think she was let down by a Brother of the watch, left pregnant and ashamed by him.  Her extensive knowledge of the world outside her northern homelands can be explained by decades of castle life, conversing with Maesters, and hearing the gossip and the tales of visitors, lords, ladies, and singers who pass through the castle. 

That vision of Dunk kissing a woman widely believed to be Nan is one of the things which makes me pause too, she is described thus. 

 

Quote

Then there came a brown-haired girl slender as a spear who stood on the tips of her toes to kiss the lips of a young knight as tall as Hodor.

 
 
 
 

If this is Nan, she doesn't sound to me like a woman who has just given birth or is in anything but the very first stages of pregnancy. The brown hair evokes non high born status as few high borns are described as having boring brown hair...But the Frey's are and I'll give you that one. ;) 

But yes, she isn't sounding to me like a recently post partum woman, nor a pregnant one. So the Frey girl would have to be either not pregnant when she left Whitewalls, and got pregnant by Dunk later and that screws with the idea of having her wet nurse Brandon, as in this vision she can't be post birth unless it is a good several months and she can only be a few weeks pregnant, certainly first trimester.  Maybe she could have travelled with Dunk and Egg, arrived at WF, got pregnant by Dunk, stayed on after he left and then nursed Brandon later? But I doubt it, because I think we'll be meeting Mylantha Blackwood in TSWOWF and that it will be her invoking the Old Gods to send her a son; Edwyle. In which case I suspect Nan is at WF already as wet nurse to Brandon. Having had a child by a crow a year or two earlier. And that Nan will do her kissing with Dunk in the novella, go to bed with him and he'll leave WF never knowing she is with child.  

 

Edited by The Weirwoods Eyes
got confused as to who gave birth to who a bit, corrected it now though

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@The Weirwoods Eyes

Lol, I will defo return to your post and reply with a better thought out post than this of course, and after I reply to Orphalesion, but for this line alone you my dear are seeming more fun by the minute ;)

Quote

As to not wanting to give up the life she was used to I doubt she would be thinking about that, but more likely being led by her fanny.

Top notch lass. 

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Well, I got led around by mine enough at that age. lol. 

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3 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

That's absolute bollocks mate.

The issue with breastfeeding and Vitamin D is this. When Ancient people moved into the northern hemisphere they developed paler skin, this was to facilitate a greater absorption of sunlight thus enabling better Vitamin D conversion.  

But several factors have led to some mothers and children being unable to absorb sufficient sunlight for adequate Vit D creation. Migration, meaning many people living in northern countries now have darker skin which is less able to perform the conversion, traditional dress which covers too much skin to allow sufficient absorption and the widespread use of extremely high factor sunscreens.

This combination has led to an increase in Rickets. Which had previously seen a decline due to the improvement of air quality in previously industrial areas. So basically more sunlight gets through due to the decrease in smog.   And the widespread improvement in diet focussed upon the wider availability and affordability of meat, dairy and eggs. All of which contain Vit d naturally and in a form which we find easy to utilise.  Actually, the movement of farmed animals to indoor systems is also a contributory factor in the rise of rickets.  Post WWII there has been a large shift to indoor systems and those who only access caged hens eggs, factory farmed meats etc will consume considerably less Vit D than someoen who can afford organic outdoor reared eggs, dairy and meats.  

So back to the breast! The issue at hand is not that Breastmilk is inherently lacking in Vit D, but rather that Formula milk is already fortified with it.  So an infant being formula fed does not require a supplement. But one breastfed by a mother who say- is darker skinned, wears a hijab, or uses a lot of high factor sunscreen, & only eats cheaper factory farmed or processed foods, would likely be in need of supplementary Vit D.  Breastmilk contains sufficient Vit d for babies who are not covered in high factor sunscreen though and whose mothers do not have a restricted ability to make Vit D themselves and access a diet with high quality outdoor reared animal products.  

As with all Government advice though the suggestion of a Vit D supplement for exclusively breastfed infants is given to all, as a blanket advisory.  

As to nursing through pregnancy. No this does not cause rickets. Again it would come down to if the mother is able to obtain enough vit D from the sun and her diet to build a healthy foetus, supply her breastmilk and keep healthy herself. in that order.   

Many women, myself included breastfeed through a pregnancy, indeed I've known friends who were breastfeeding two children and carrying a pregnancy and don't have a child with Rickets. And historically most women would still be nursing the older child to some degree when a pregnancy occurs as pre-birth control era the protection provided by breastfeeding would be the primary cause of pregnancy spacing as it still is in many cultures around the world, breastfeeding Amenorrhea gives reliably 6 months of contraceptive cover in exclusively breastfed infants who are not given access to a dummy, or having their feeds spaced or restricted at all.  This can extend up to 18 months and even beyond. But it varies greatly, being longer in women who have a less nutritious diet and shorter in western women who have access to high protein diets.  So we can assume that many thousands of women in the world today and historically have routinely breastfed throughout their pregnancies. And Rickets is not a major issue in societies where these women & their babies have the ability process and access to adequate sunshine levels and foods which contain natural vit D in high quantities.  

There is a reason Rickets was a disease of the poor in industrial Britain. Namely, smog, women & children spending excessive hours inside in factories, mines etc. poor quality nutrition and inability to access fresh dairy, meat and eggs etc. 

 

I love it how you describe it a "bollocks" and then go into detail on all the ways it is possible. That's awesome

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Posted (edited)

@Dorian Martell's son

Thanks. :thumbsup:

 When it comes to breastfeeding and lactation I know my shit. But I'm northern so I use words like bollocks. 

ETA: Ah, I see my hasty reading left me assuming you were conceding your position. Let me spell it out real simple for you. Seeing as my detailed explanation seems to have gone over your head.  

The causes of Rickets are.

1; An inability to process sunlight into Vit D. AKA, dark skin in the northern hemisphere, wearing clothes which cover too much of the skin, not going outdoors, wearing sunscreen too often, excessive smog 

2; a secondary contributory factor is low quality or insufficient vit D containing foods such as meat, dairy & eggs.

As we derive the majority of our vit D from the sun but can utilise Vit D in food as well. 

 

Edited by The Weirwoods Eyes

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43 minutes ago, Orphalesion said:

What?

No I read the whole post. It was just that one part I protested, because it's neither a good argument nor very sound reasoning. Sorry I sturggle with the idea of national and regional identity in real life and it pushed a button. 

I'm not sure if Old Nan is related to Walder Frey, because I think we would have heard about it, but it's a better theory than her being Tanselle. Much better. Personally I prefer her being Old Nan.  Then again we might not have heard of it, because GRRM hadn't decided yet that they were related (we can see that in Tolkien as well, where he only later decided that Amroth might have been the son of Celeborn and Galadriel, you wouldn't get that from the text of Fellowship either and there's only a small, possible, very hidden hint in Return of the King)

I agree that Hodor's real name might possibly hint at a Frey connection. And we have that vision Bran had about the girl (possibly, maybe, perhaps Young Nan) and the tall knight(?), who is possibly Duncan, which would provide a connection to Dunc and Egg (hopefully we learn more about that in future tales)

One thing I thought about, but which I'm not sure about is whether we ever learn which gods Nan prays to. If she was a Frey girl, then she would worship the seven (unless she converted) and if she's a Northerner she would pray to the Old Gods (again unless she converted), but I can't think of a reference where Nan is states as praying to either "set" of gods.

The second thing is Hodor's supposed Giant's blood. Where would it come from south of the Neck? From a man she met up North? Or was Osha simply mistaken? Might it even just something Wildlings say about every unusually tall person they meet (i.e. would Osha say the same if she met Brienne or the Mountain? I.e. is it something like being "Kissed by Fire"? 

How do you stand on the idea that Hodor might be descended from Duncan?

Ok back again after Weirwood eyes side tracked me with her good old British wit lol. 

Ok, let's go. On Nans Gods, there seems to be nothing on it, that may have been a decent clue although your correct when you say she may have converted to the Northern Old Gods where she may have worshipped the Seven in her youth, if she kept any Gods at all.

On the giants blood and what Osha refer to as the "half bloods", I think this is a real thing. Here's the quote:

"Let Maester Luwin ride beyond the Wall," Osha said. "He'll find giants then, or they'll find him. My brother killed one. Ten foot tall she was, and stunted at that. They've been known to grow big as twelve and thirteen feet. Fierce things they are too, all hair and teeth, and the wives have beards like their husbands, so there's no telling them apart. The women take human men for lovers, and it's from them the half bloods come. It goes harder on the women they catch. The men are so big they'll rip a maid apart before they get her with child." She grinned at him. "But you don't know what I mean, do you, boy?"

Thing is though, I apply this to who GRRM himself classes as the true giant of the series:

"Just off the top of my head, I would say Brienne is taller than Renly and Jaime and significantly heavier than either, but nowhere near the size of Gregor Clegane, who is the true giant in the series."

And check this to go with what I think, this is from the World book on the Westerlands:

"These are rich lands, temperate and fruitful, shielded by high hills to the east and south and the endless blue waters of the Sunset Sea to the west. Once the children of the forest made their homes in the woods, whilst giants dwelt amongst the hills, where their bones can still occasionally be found."

What if a female giant let Gregor and Sandors ancient relative tap that Giant ass?. 

Basically I think there's truth to the half blood thing for sure but I'm not sure it applies to Hodor/Walder.

Finally, where I stand on Hodor/Walder being a descendant of Dunk may be better summed up by a percentage. I'm not quite near 100% sure but quite a deal over 50% sure that Dunk is indeed Hodors Great grandfather. 

 

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14 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Well, I got led around by mine enough at that age. lol. 

Life was so simple back in the crazy youth before our twenties! I Miss that mad shit!.

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