Macgregor of the North

Re-opening an old can of worms on an Old Nan topic for fresh analysis. (Novella content).

136 posts in this topic

@The Weirwoods Eyes

What if perhaps Dunk and Egg stayed at Winterfell for a time in service to the Starks with Dunk as a hired sword before they head South again?. Basically what I'm thinking is they could be there for a time such as Nan to have her own baby and her figure return to what it was before?. 

You have got me thinking now, your point about the description of the girl and how she is slender as a spear is probably the best counter anybody has brought against this theory. Although young girls (who were not particularly plump before pregnancy) can return to slimness rather quick after birth can they not?. 

Im going to have another look at the bodily description of the young Frey girl.

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@The Weirwoods Eyes

Theres nout really on the Frey girls body description really so that's a dead end. Hats off to you lass, your counters have proved the best and should give us all pause for thought on this theory, although I'm not completely ruling it out.

While it fits in many many ways, and it really does, it doesn't fit totally snug and for that I will repeat what I did at the start, I am not personally sold on this theory but damn it's been fun haha. 

As to Nan being led on and hurt by a Crow, I've theorised in the past that Nan was a Moles town whore (shocking I know) and was impregnated by a brother and came into the Starks service, this is still quite likely and seems to be a similar line of thought to what you are on. 

She need not even be a moles town whore though I suppose, just some Northern lass who had a fling with a black brother on southern travels who fucked her and filled her head full of shite. 

The Winterfell Novella is something I'm looking forward to as much as the next main Novel as this should help us on this topic I think. 

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Posted (edited)

Yes, the younger you are the faster your body returns, as a general rule. My best friend from childhood had her first kid at 17 (literally a fortnight after her 17th birthday) And whilst she returned to her usual svelte self quite quickly, she definitely still had the deflated beach ball belly for a month or so. Maybe 8 weeks ish before she was back in her 1990's size 6 jeans, I mention the decade cos clothes sizes have expanded enormously since then.

So much so that whilst theoretically being a size 10 a few years ago, I couldn't get my left leg in one of my old size 10 skirts from back then when I pulled out some old things I can't bear to part with.  

But I digress. Yes theoretically Nan could come north with Dunk they could hang around for a good while at WF and she could become the wet nurse once her baby is born and her figure return before Dunk leaves. But I think ultimately that it is unlikely she is the Frey girl. 

As I said I suspect TSWOWF will happen after Lyanne Glover is long since passed, and that we'll meet Melantha Blackwood as Lord Willem's recent widow, and that she will prove to be the pregnant woman in the vision directly after the one of Nan & Dunk. Seeking a son to reinstate herself as Lady of WF. After her late husband's brothers and wives have schemed against her as the mother of a mere daughter.  And displaced her as ruling lady. A son would reinstate her as regent to Willam's heir. In which case Either her predecessors son Brandon has already died of his summer chill leaving Jocelyn as Willams only child. Or one of the brothers is seeking to become Brandon's guardian himself and regent in his name, as Melantha is not his mother. But then why ask for a son? If Brandon is elder he is still heir? So I suspect Brandon's dead already, or that the boy is on his death bed in the story too. 

Edited by The Weirwoods Eyes

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2 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

@The Weirwoods Eyes

Wasn't Edwyle born before Jocelyn?? 

 

I'll admit this is a major flaw in my idea. But I just keep clinging to the idea that that is wrong somehow as I hear it said. But have never seen the source.  

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Just now, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I'll admit this is a major flaw in my idea. But I just keep clinging to the idea that that is wrong somehow as I hear it said. But have never seen the source.  

Ive heard it said too, forgive me though but I always thought it was said by people trying to make a theory work. I mean no offence by that btw

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Anyways folks it is the weekend now where I'm from, gotta go for now! Catch yous later, great chatter! 

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Just now, Macgregor of the North said:

Ive heard it said too, forgive me though but I always thought it was said by people trying to make a theory work. I mean no offence by that btw

 

Non taken 

I have heard it said, but have never seen anything that actually proves it. And the lady in the weirwood pool just screams Blackwood to me. Take the description of her long flowing black hair. The Blackwood women always seem to have Black hair. You've got Black Ally, Black Betha, and Melissa is depicted with long flowing dark hair as well.  And I also think Alys Rivers was a Blackwood bastard and she is described as having long flowing black hair. 

So piecing it together Melantha seems likely, and why would she ask for a son if she already has one? makes no sense. 

Aye, t'is the weekend now. My husband just came in and I have pork chops to cook. Thanks for the discussion. 

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9 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Non taken 

I have heard it said, but have never seen anything that actually proves it. And the lady in the weirwood pool just screams Blackwood to me. Take the description of her long flowing black hair. The Blackwood women always seem to have Black hair. You've got Black Ally, Black Betha, and Melissa is depicted with long flowing dark hair as well.  And I also think Alys Rivers was a Blackwood bastard and she is described as having long flowing black hair. 

So piecing it together Melantha seems likely, and why would she ask for a son if she already has one? makes no sense. 

Aye, t'is the weekend now. My husband just came in and I have pork chops to cook. Thanks for the discussion. 

I do see where your coming from and could easily see a Blackwood lass being naked in the pool for sure but the lass isn't described as having flowing black hair. 

After that the glimpses came faster and faster, till Bran was feeling lost and dizzy. He saw no more of his father, nor the girl who looked like Arya, but a woman heavy with child emerged naked and dripping from the black pool, knelt before the tree, and begged the old gods for a son who would avenge her. Then there came a brown-haired girl slender as a spear who stood on the tips of her toes to kiss the lips of a young knight as tall as Hodor. A dark-eyed youth, pale and fierce, sliced three branches off the weirwood and shaped them into arrows. The tree itself was shrinking, growing smaller with each vision, whilst the lesser trees dwindled into saplings and vanished, only to be replaced by other trees that would dwindle and vanish in their turn. And now the lords Bran glimpsed were tall and hard, stern men in fur and chain mail. Some wore faces he remembered from the statues in the crypts, but they were gone before he could put a name to them.

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1 hour ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

@Dorian Martell's son

Thanks. :thumbsup:

 When it comes to breastfeeding and lactation I know my shit. But I'm northern so I use words like bollocks. 

ETA: Ah, I see my hasty reading left me assuming you were conceding your position. Let me spell it out real simple for you. Seeing as my detailed explanation seems to have gone over your head.  

The causes of Rickets are.

1; An inability to process sunlight into Vit D. AKA, dark skin in the northern hemisphere, wearing clothes which cover too much of the skin, not going outdoors, wearing sunscreen too often, excessive smog 

2; a secondary contributory factor is low quality or insufficient vit D containing foods such as meat, dairy & eggs.

As we derive the majority of our vit D from the sun but can utilise Vit D in food as well. 

you could have just accepted my compliment, but here it goes.
For your edits:
1: Or say, traveling to the north, in a place where seasons are not normal, in a wagon or wheelhouse, covering herself up so she is not recognized as the former Ms. Butterwell.  So, this fits perfectly with what you said and it fits into this particular theory. So again, thank you, it is awesome.
2: Again, she is traveling far to escape her former disgraced husband. She wouldn't have much coin so she wouldn't have access to the best food on her journey. 
both of these things fit wonderfully into the the possibilities laid out in the OP.  And really, this is a fantasy novel where 300+ years of brother/sister incest leave physically beautiful offspring that can still reproduce with little problems, so as we are all rewriting the story to make this theory work, a little give and take on rickets is entirely possible too 

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6 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

so as we are all rewriting the story to make this theory work, 

And there goes the smug Dorian Martell attitude that many, and I mean maaanny of us on here just have no time for. Yawn.

Have you anything productive to add to this thread other than your smug attitude DM? I'm tiring of it on my threads. Your presence on a thread is honestly like a dark cloud with this attitude of yours. 

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5 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

And there goes the smug Dorian Martell attitude that many, and I mean maaanny of us on here just have no time for. Yawn.

I was participating in your little forum game, and being quite respectful to you. And really, you keep saying things like "I have no time for this" yet you keep responding with attitude. If you don't like rewriting the story to make a theory work, why do you do it in a public forum where people can respond? Maybe you should try writing your own novel. You seem to have lots of ideas about the novels other people write.

6 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Have you anything productive to add to this thread other than your smug attitude DM? I'm tiring of it on my threads. Your presence on a thread is honestly like a dark cloud with this attitude of yours. 

I did add a number of productive elements to this thread, and you responded, and then punted your response to another forum user. you had no problem there.  Also, I'm not calling people names or accusing anyone of anything false. You could just play along, but it seems you are unable to take any criticism of anything, and even when no criticism is given, you have to make it up so you can speak ill of people. Why is that?  Have you talked to a professional about this problem? Therapy is a wonderful tool to deal with unresolved feelings and gain knowledge of yourself.  Than maybe you can channel all of that into that novel you are going to write?

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Even if Dunk and Egg recognized her as Lady Butterwell, if she's insisting (and I'm thinking Arya-level insistence and stubbornness!) that she's Nan, just Nan, only Nan, don't know who this "lady" you're talking about is, I'm NAN, dammit!! There's not really too much either of them can do - except turn around and take her back to Butterwell....but if they don't want to or can't, for whatever reason...(time constraints, attraction, she's convincing, or whatever - and likely a combination of more than one).  Even if Egg pulled the Prince card, I feel like she'd talk him out of it....she IS a pretty good storyteller (if Old Nan *is* Lady Butterwell).  Hell, a little dirt and some ratty clothes was all it took for Arya to be unrecognizable to Tommen and Myrcella (and it's not like Dunk and Egg knew Lady Butterwell any better than Tommen and Myrcella knew Arya - Myrcella at least had spent a few weeks at Winterfell doing "lady" things with Arya and Sansa, as much as Arya hated it). 

That's not to say I'm convinced either way.  But "they would have known her and taken her back" isn't a be all/end all argument, there's plenty of wiggle room.  If Dunk and Egg are faced with a young woman who INSISTS she's not who they think she is, I can easily see for the purposes of a good story, they drop it and carry on and let her pretend she's commonborn. Maybe they'd even hope she'd eventually give up, hating the conditions she's forced to travel in with a knight and squire, and ask them to take her back.  Maybe they're worried they *are* wrong and this young woman isn't Lady Butterwell....hell, if Walder Frey's father was as prolific with the bastards as his son is, maybe she could even convince them that she just *looks* similar to Lady Butterwell because "Nan" is one of Lady Butterwell's half-siblings...

I'm not convinced it's true, but I definitely see how GRRM could make it plausibly work.  If Old Nan's had a talent for storytelling since she was young, it wouldn't be too difficult to convince Dunk the Lunk and a child that she's someone else.  Everyone seems to be assuming that Lady Butterwell would basically introduce herself as her true self and not lie....why *wouldn't* she lie about who she is if she's trying to run away from her marriage?

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Posted (edited)

On 16-3-2017 at 6:51 PM, Macgregor of the North said:

Quick return to the thread to say welcome! And you talk very good sense, cheers for the input. 

@direpupy, this ends our debate. I am not talking about full annulment or the need for a High septon and never was. But simply that if the girl wanted an out, she could leave and just because they were married, that would not mean that she had to stay put, especially if she seeked aid from Dunk Egg or Bloodraven and they agreed to help her.

The girl could have moved on even if the marriage still technically stood and had more children while Butterwell could do nothing. And when he passed away, the girl could marry again if she wished. 

Solved.

Sorry for the late response i was not able to visit the site for a while do to work.

No not solved at all, living apart from your spouce and running away are two totally different things.

And whats more you still have not answered the question of why she would believe Dunk and Egg would help her, and if she goes to Bloodraven then even if he would help her she would go to court with him not to winterfell.

Untill you can answer these questions its a weak and not very likely theory.

Edited by direpupy

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Posted (edited)

@Macgregor of the North

Basically what i am asking off you is give me a compeling reason why she would take the awfully big leap of faith that Dunk and Egg would be willing to help her. And please don't come with Ambrose is old and done because hanging around old and done untill a beter opurtunity comes along is beter then complete uncertainty.

If you can do this then i am willing to for the sake of argument let go of my other problem with the theory, namely  why in the name of the seven would she want to give up her life as a noble lady and become a servant.

Edited by direpupy

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Wow that was a blast from the past, MK was my absolute fav, and actually what turned me on to ASoIaF....

I like the idea of it, def need to re-read.

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12 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:
 

@Lady Blizzardborn

<snip

It became very much common knowledge at the wedding that the girl was spoiled by the kitchen scullion before he married her, if he didn't know before the wedding then he would have found out by the rumour mill or the bedding where her Maidenhead was not intact. 

<snip

When she was just a Frey girl she stuck two flour covered fingers up to her cosy noble life by sneaking down to fuck the kitchen scullion. I dont think she gave a shit about her noble Frey life as she openly jeopardised it, and ended up outcast and thrown out to be left to Ambrose. She is no longer classed as Frey nobility by her own father. 

Yes, she then becomes Butterwell nobility but that comes with having to suffer an old done man pumping it into her each night further tainting her and her future children with treason. Plus the guys lost his beautiful castle, and is left with a tenth of his wealth, which for all she knows could be shit. What would you do? Stick with that shitty life or make a break for it and catch up to the big hulking stud you have had your eye on throughout your own wedding and seek help and adventure with him?.

All she needs to decide is that this is not the life for her and either run away and latch on to Dunk and Egg heading North and Ambrose never sees her again, or appeal to Dunk, Egg or Bloodraven at Whitewalls for their aid to get her an out. There doesn't even have to be an annulment, Ambrose is done, who's he gonna take his case to? The crown? He's lucky he has his head. He simply lets the girl go I believe. 

<snip

Why not? 80 years is a long time. This is Winterfell, where there will have been raiders from beyond the Wall aplenty and stories flying around everywhere of them. Also, loads of harsh Winters where's there's nothing to do but sit and talk by the fire and learn of the old stories such as the Long Night. Honestly, I don't see an issue, if I went somewhere to live for 80 years, I'd be a master of the place. People listen, and people learn, and people become just like the people they surround themselves with. It's not too much of a stretch to believe this really. 

Correct. But it's still a very much alive theory so it's impossible not to submit is as a form of evidence when talking about this theory. The next Winterfell Novella isnt that far away, we will actually read it in a matter of years, so this should clear some stuff up concerning this I think.

I'll end with a wee word on Nan being a Wildling. If you re read Nan stuff on your next cycle (I'm not sure how you re read the books) read about her feelings toward Wildlings, I've never really got the feeling she was born among them. She hates them. I think she may have settled down with a Northern man after Dunk left, maybe even an Umber and she has a strong feeling of dislike toward Wildlings. Total speculation here.

<snip

This theory though, stays plausible. Infact even more so after extensive discussion on it. There's nothing any of you has said that has shot it down in flames and it still burns bright. 

Sorry, that was long! Your likely yawning now. 

That's not a guarantee of loss of virginity. There are other ways to break a maidenhead. And while Westeros lacks bicycles they do have horses, as is mentioned in the debate about Margaery's virtue or lack thereof.

I have to disagree here. She was not openly doing anything. She was a hormone-addled teenaged girl who thought she wouldn't get caught. If her snot-nosed little brother hadn't been sneaking around and snooping, she would have likely gotten away with it too. Teenage girls in the middle ages did not sleep with unsuitable men as a means of protest or throwing away their privileged lives, they just did it because they wanted to and didn't think of consequences.

Me? I'm nothing like the little Frey hussy. I'd either stick with my husband or leave him, but I would not just run off and pretend I wasn't married. I'd seek help from somebody like the Tullys or the Blackwoods, and get myself an annulment so that I could marry a decent guy in the future. Daddy Frey might not help me, but the royal family would probably be fine with me ditching a traitor who I only married because daddy made me do it.

Why would Dunk and Egg help her? They know about her risque cooking lessons, and that she married Butterwell, and has a father who is probably a traitor but too cunning to be caught at it, and has a snot-nosed little brother who Dunk was tempted to throw down a well. Maybe they're just too decent to turn away any damsel in distress, but having her along would be a problem and likely slow them down.

I'm looking forward to that one. :D

Good points but Old Nan's stories seem personal. Not like she's lived through things like the Long Night, but like she feels it's part of her because it's part of her heritage. And I've never gotten that sense from anyone outside of the North except for those who live even north-er.

Well I agree. And I didn't say she was a Wildling. I just said I'd find that easier to believe that than her being the Frey-Butterwell girl. What if she was a member of one of the mountain clans and was stolen by a Wildling, but made her way back to the Wall and then was sent to Winterfell? Or was the victim of an attempted stealing and was "saved" by a member of the Night's Watch who turned out to be worse than a Wildling? 

No, we can't shoot anything down in flames. We lack dragons. :D But this is a subject on which we have little enough information that a number of options could be considered plausible. Heck, until I read otherwise I will continue to maintain that Daario's mother was a Blackfyre descendant. There's nothing to prove me wrong yet.

Not yawning at all.

Hey, has anyone else checked the various Walders in the series? I did. They're all either Freys or descended from House Frey. If Hodor is not related to House Frey, then he's the only Walder who isn't. But...we can still cling to the hope that his Frey blood comes from his mother, or his father's mother, or his mother's mother, or her mother, or anyone else who isn't Nan. 

Just had a thought. Remember how Arya said Nan was short for Nymeria? Well if Old Nan's real name was Nymeria Frey? Then how awesome is it that there's a direwolf named Nymeria roaming the Riverlands, leading a massive pack of wolves, and taking out her snot-nosed little brother's miscreant descendants? You know...I'm starting to like this theory now.

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@Dorian Martell's son

I honestly believe you think you are humorous on here :D

The other day I had someone private message me and say, is that really the same guy who used to be Dorian Martell. I never knew he got banned, I used to avoid him but now I know this is his new name I'll be avoiding this newer version, thanks for the confirmation. Lol, you are known on here man! And seriously, I don't make things like that up. People really do think of you like that.

You get attention man, and not for the right reasons. Threads you come on go sour dude, seriously. Ive seen it happen more than a few times and the serious consequences of that is posts getting deleted, people getting warned, and people getting banned. Oh, well, that was just you haha. 

Go crave attention on someone else's thread instead of creeping on mine like you always do, your times up here. It's like you stalk me man. 

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