Rhaegar sacrificed himself to Robert

[Nezza86]

Something has always sat a bit wrong with me in the story of Rhaegars death at the ruby ford. We know that with his final breath he murmurs a womans name but we are never told whose name it was. Of course I think most people assume it was Lyanna, and thats were i'd put my money too. But I've always wondered why he would do that, it seems a bit melodramatic and a bit pointless too. I guess we are supposed to take from it that he loved Lyanna and it hints that she eloped with him instead of him kidnapping her. But Ive just realised a parity of this with another moment in the book.

I've just finished listening to Davos Chapter 36 ASOS when Stannis frees Davos and makes him his hand. At the end of the chapter Melisandre gives Stannis leeches of Edric Storms blood which he burns as a sacrifice in the belief that Rhllor will kill the other kings in westeros. As he throws each leech into the fire he says a name of one of the other kings. Edric Storm was one of Roberts bastards and therefore has royal blood, and melisandre even says in this chapter that theres power in kings blood.

So could this, in part, explain why Rhaegar with his last breath said a womans name? The royal blood being sacrifced at the ruby ford being his own and a real true sacrifice instead of leeches of blood taken from a prisoner. The only question that leaves in my mind is; what was he choosing Lyanna for? To die? Did she have to die as well to assign their son the role of the prince that was promised and/or azor ahai reborn? Either way I dont think Robert beat Rhaegar I think Rhaegar knew he had to die to fulfill his part of the prophecy and therefore let Robert deal the killing blow.

[Knight Of Winter]

First of all, Melisandre was probably bullshiting - all she did was foreseeing deaths of Robb, Balon and Joffrey and tricked Stannis into believing that her leeches had something to do with it.

Secondly, the whole concept of "king's blood" is so filled with holes the size of LF's ego and inconsistencies that it would be ridiculous if it somehow turned to be actually true. Tagraryens, for example, don't have any kings' blood in their veins - they were ordinary noble Valyrian family and nothing more. So, did Aegon's blood magically become "kingly" after his coronation? By that logic, didn't Maester Aemon's blood stop being magical after his family was deposed? Did Renly's blood become magical after he proclaimed himself as king? Or did Joffrey's blood lose half it's kingly quality after half the realm rose against him? Does it work retroactively? - does e.g. Mya Stone, being born as bastard daughter of Lord of Stormlands, suddenly become king's blood after her father declared himself king? Only to suddenly lose if in case Baratheon dynasty is deposed? What about Mance and his son? Etc. For something so special to grant you magical powers, the concept of king's blood doesn't require much effort - all you have to do is proclaim yourself to a king, have some others follow you, and your blood will somehow start enabling you to do awesome stuff.

And lastly, why would Rhaegar sacrifice himself? It's pretty obvious that he planned on winning the battle and proceed to remove Aerys, not intentionally dying so that he would fulfill some kind of blood sacrifice.

 

[Macgregor of the North]

Rhaegar once thought he was the PTWP. He changed his mind later to Aegon. I personally believe he changed it again very late on to the child of his union with Lyanna, born of Ice and Fire. What I'm getting at is that Rhaegar believed he and his line were destined to fight in the War for the dawn, I think Rhaegar knew he was to die but thought it would be there and his child would fulfill the Prophecy and hopefully win the war. 

I don't think he ever thought he was to die at the trident. He genuinely wanted to win the War, unite the realm under a safe rule(his own) and not under his mad father or wild cousin Robert and rally the whole realm against the next Long Night with his child as the one true hope for mankind (dramatic I know haha). 

Robert had other ideas though and hammered him to death leaving Rhaegar to think of Lyanna in his last thoughts.

[Nezza86]

I dotn think mel was BSing I think she believes her own lies, but I agree that those leeches did not cause the deaths of Balon, Robb and Joffrey. Renly was already dead at this point and the rest were probably just coincidence. Stannis is under some form of protection by Rhllor as his purpose is to take Mel to Jon.

I think the whole point of the story is that there is power in kings blood, but what makes kings blood is not well defined. I would say that Roberts kings blood is weak and made even weaker if he didnt really defeat Rhaegar. The common theory is that the rightful king is someone who has conquered. In the books that looks to be Dany given that the story is building up to her being some sort of Aegon the Conqueror reborn. My over arcing theory is that the other people who are said to have kings blood, the baratheons and now later lannisters dont actually have this mystical elemt that makes up kings blood. But to ignite lightbringer we need the true king for their powerful blood and of all the different ways that someone could rise to the throne it's the conqueror who is the true king. So yeah Rhaegars blood would be powerful, his descendants conquered westeros and hes next in line for the throne. The others are false and Dany will have the true "kings blood" at the end when she conquers Westeros for the second time. Shame Jons going to have to kill her

I dont agree with that last statement at all. Why would Rhaegar fight for Aerys instead of letting Robert kill him first then swoop in and take the throne himself?

[The Fattest Leech]

Rhaegar said "Lyanna" when he died. It was confirmed by George via the app, which George says uses "extra" info that couldn't fit in the World book. 

[Knight Of Winter]

20 minutes ago, Nezza86 said:

I dotn think mel was BSing I think she believes her own lies, but I agree that those leeches did not cause the deaths of Balon, Robb and Joffrey. Renly was already dead at this point and the rest were probably just coincidence. Stannis is under some form of protection by Rhllor as his purpose is to take Mel to Jon.

I think the whole point of the story is that there is power in kings blood, but what makes kings blood is not well defined. I would say that Roberts kings blood is weak and made even weaker if he didnt really defeat Rhaegar. The common theory is that the rightful king is someone who has conquered. In the books that looks to be Dany given that the story is building up to her being some sort of Aegon the Conqueror reborn. My over arcing theory is that the other people who are said to have kings blood, the baratheons and now later lannisters dont actually have this mystical elemt that makes up kings blood. But to ignite lightbringer we need the true king for their powerful blood and of all the different ways that someone could rise to the throne it's the conqueror who is the true king. So yeah Rhaegars blood would be powerful, his descendants conquered westeros and hes next in line for the throne. The others are false and Dany will have the true "kings blood" at the end when she conquers Westeros for the second time. Shame Jons going to have to kill her

I dont agree with that last statement at all. Why would Rhaegar fight for Aerys instead of letting Robert kill him first then swoop in and take the throne himself?

Trying to find some internal sense with the concept of king's blood will only get you into complicated mess with no internal logic. For example, if you subscribe to the theory that king's blood refers to people to who conquered the kingdom, why is Robert's blood any less kingly than Aegon's or his descendants? Or Lannisters, who claimed the throne by guile and incest? Why is Aegon's blood "true" and Robert's "weak" then? Or why will Dany have "true" blood if she conquers Westeros (while Robert or Joffrey don't)? How does this exactly work - if Dany makes a blood sacrifice in AGOT - it will amount to nothing since she's no queen at that point? But if she makes blood sacrifice in e.g. TWOW while sitting on the Iron Throne, her blood will actually mean something? Is your idea that Dany's blood somehow magically responds to the collective belief of other people who acknowledge or (or don't) as queen?

And secondly, from what you wrote, it seems like you're subscribing not to the idea of king's blood (since Aegon the King and Robert the King don't have the blood of equal quality. After all, if conquering the kingdom is all that's required fro king's blood, that there's no "mystical" element to it) but to the idea that Targs are special snowflakes and only their blood is magical. Which is a valid opinion, I just don't understand why hide it behind "king's blood" when they're obviously different.

 

Last sentence - because Rhaegar doesn't want to die? Why would he voluntarily get killed by Robert instead of winning the battle and overthrowing Aerys, claiming the throne for himself (which is what he planned on doing)?

[JLE]

Also Rhaegar didn't live to see whether his child by Lyanna was a boy or girl. Indeed, the names of his first two children suggest that he was expecting his third child to be a girl, to re-create the Original Targaryen Triumvirate - Rhaenys, Aegon, (Visenya): although in the earlier case, Visenya was the elder sister of Aegon, and Rhaenys the younger, whereas Rhaegar gave the name of Rhaenys to the elder sister of his own son Aegon.

However it seems highly likely to me that what he actually expected was another daughter, a Visenya, and for his son Aegon to continue being the Prince That Was Promised, interpreting his "dragon must have three heads" to be that he should sire three children to make a triumvirate.

Of course it didn't work that way. Rhaenys is dead - so, I believe, is the real Aegon (I believe Young Griff is an imposter, the truth of which is known only to Varys and Illyrio, with both the boy himself and Jon Connington believing him to be the real thing) - and Rhaegar's third child turned out to be a boy.

[Knight Of Winter]

1 minute ago, JLE said:

Also Rhaegar didn't live to see whether his child by Lyanna was a boy or girl. Indeed, the names of his first two children suggest that he was expecting his third child to be a girl, to re-create the Original Targaryen Triumvirate - Rhaenys, Aegon, (Visenya): although in the earlier case, Visenya was the elder sister of Aegon, and Rhaenys the younger, whereas Rhaegar gave the name of Rhaenys to the elder sister of his own son Aegon.

However it seems highly likely to me that what he actually expected was another daughter, a Visenya, and for his son Aegon to continue being the Prince That Was Promised, interpreting his "dragon must have three heads" to be that he should sire three children to make a triumvirate.

Of course it didn't work that way. Rhaenys is dead - so, I believe, is the real Aegon - and Rhaegar's third child turned out to be a boy.

I find it quite ironic, really. Rheagar's prophecy was that his 3 children will be 3 heads of the dragon. And Rheagar himself was so obsessed with said prophecy that he paid no heed to the civil war that was brewing and would eventually kill 1 or 2 of his children. As if Rhaegar himself played a significant part in defeating his own prophecy.

[Smirking Knight]

I think there's at least some credible support for Rhaegar sacrificing himself. By most accounts, once he put his mind to it he was nigh unstoppable in a fight. Robert was no slouch, obviously, but I find it hard to believe Rhaegar would go down with relative ease. Yes Robert took a wound, but Rhaegar blasted through just about everyone (including Barristan) in a tourney without slowing down.

Why let Robert win, to the ruin of his house? Aerys II was very, very suspicious of Rhaegar and came very close to favoring Viserys in terms of succession. There are decent odds that at some point Aerys might have tried to have Rhaegar and his children burned, especially if he thought Rhaegar was trying to set him aside. Robert doesn't seem much safer an option for baby Targaryens, but perhaps Rhaegar trusted Lyanna to keep their child safe somehow. 

[Vaedys Targaryen]

1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Rhaegar said "Lyanna" when he died. It was confirmed by George via the app, which George says uses "extra" info that couldn't fit in the World book. 

Really? Can you please show me a link?

[The Fattest Leech]

4 minutes ago, Vaedys Targaryen said:

Really? Can you please show me a link?

Well, I can't really link to the app where it says so , but there is a video interview of George where he says what is in the app is the "extra" info that was cut from the World book. 

[cgrav]

I have a hunch that Robert won by treachery. He was grievously injured in the fight, we know. I wonder if Robert didn't first yield, and then struck Rhaegar unawares.

Some "reenactment" scenes show Robert symbols falling into the River - Joffrey, Samwell, and Littlefinger. Possible they're all meant to symbolize Rhaegar, but they all seem more obviously associated with Robert, while the person pushing them in the water possesses more Rhaegar-like personal qualities (rowdy Arya, singer Dareon, and "fiery" Brandon). Dareon in particular is clearly representing Rhaegar in the scene where Samwell ends up in the canal.

[Damein Blackfyre true king]

@King of Winter In my opinion all kings blood means is Valyrian blood.  Stannis,Robert, schreen, Jon, gentry, edrick storm all have Valyrian blood.

[Knight Of Winter]

23 minutes ago, Damein Blackfyre true king said:

@King of Winter In my opinion all kings blood means is Valyrian blood.  Stannis,Robert, schreen, Jon, gentry, edrick storm all have Valyrian blood.

Then king's blood is practically meaningless, for half the world has it: just remember all the Free Cities minus Braavos are former Valyrian colonies. Now imagine how many people all across Essos have at least one ancestor from these cities (dozens of millions, at least). And even in Westeros, there should be at least thousands and tens of thousands people who could claim descendancy from a Targayen (remember that all of Europe is descended from Charlemagne, a guy who lived 12 centuries ago).

[Lucius Lovejoy]

3 hours ago, Knight Of Winter said:

First of all, Melisandre was probably bullshiting - all she did was foreseeing deaths of Robb, Balon and Joffrey and tricked Stannis into believing that her leeches had something to do with it.

Secondly, the whole concept of "king's blood" is so filled with holes the size of LF's ego and inconsistencies that it would be ridiculous if it somehow turned to be actually true. Tagraryens, for example, don't have any kings' blood in their veins - they were ordinary noble Valyrian family and nothing more. So, did Aegon's blood magically become "kingly" after his coronation? By that logic, didn't Maester Aemon's blood stop being magical after his family was deposed? Did Renly's blood become magical after he proclaimed himself as king? Or did Joffrey's blood lose half it's kingly quality after half the realm rose against him? Does it work retroactively? - does e.g. Mya Stone, being born as bastard daughter of Lord of Stormlands, suddenly become king's blood after her father declared himself king? Only to suddenly lose if in case Baratheon dynasty is deposed? What about Mance and his son? Etc. For something so special to grant you magical powers, the concept of king's blood doesn't require much effort - all you have to do is proclaim yourself to a king, have some others follow you, and your blood will somehow start enabling you to do awesome stuff.

And lastly, why would Rhaegar sacrifice himself? It's pretty obvious that he planned on winning the battle and proceed to remove Aerys, not intentionally dying so that he would fulfill some kind of blood sacrifice.

 

I agree with absolutely all of this.  Always has confused me where all the Rhaegar love has come from.  Because Ned had a thought once that Rhaegar didn't visit brothels the way Robert did?  Because Barristan Selmy, after spending 16 years serving Robert mind you, told the romantic stories of his memories of being a young man to Rhaegar's sister?  I don't think everything GRRM writes needs to take a master detective with 8 billion degrees in history and philosophy to figure out.  I think Jorah Mormont had it right when he said something to the effect of "Rhaegar fought and Rhaegar died."

As for King's Blood, I think it's another tool for Melisandre to wield to keep her power.  Anyone can call themselves a king.  Likewise I don't think Bastard's blood makes a man more craven and dishonorable the way many characters state it does in the book.  Where I think and hope the story is going is the end of the feudal society where it's not important what name or blood a man has, but what actions defined him.

Just my opinion, I don't mean to disparage anyone else's - just saying where I come from.

[devilish]

Rhaegar was probably betrayed by his own men. A bookish prince would never ended up face to face against a mountain of steel especially when the former is leading the bigger and better equipped army. His men put him into that situation. 

A- Someone might have told Robert of Rhaegar's location
B- Someone pulled or withheld his men from helping Rhaegar

[Lady Blizzardborn]

1 hour ago, devilish said:

Rhaegar was probably betrayed by his own men. A bookish prince would never ended up face to face against a mountain of steel especially when the former is leading the bigger and better equipped army. His men put him into that situation. 

A- Someone might have told Robert of Rhaegar's location
B- Someone pulled or withheld his men from helping Rhaegar

No one had to. The battle was at the Trident, both armies were there, and Rhaegar was the guy in the black and ruby army with the helm that had dragon wings. 

I think people are needlessly complicating a simple matter. Anyone can be killed. All men must die. This stuff is echoed throughout the series. Ned Stark was perhaps the best character in the books in terms of honor. Dead. Robb was kicking the Lannister army's collective posterior all over the map. Dead. Oberyn Martell was a major badass. Dead. Gregor Clegane was considered pretty much unbeatable. Dead.

Rhaegar's death happening does not require treachery, betrayal, or sacrifice for prophetic reasons. No one is invincible. Valar morghulis. 

[Knight Of Winter]

1 hour ago, devilish said:

Rhaegar was probably betrayed by his own men. A bookish prince would never ended up face to face against a mountain of steel especially when the former is leading the bigger and better equipped army. His men put him into that situation. 

A- Someone might have told Robert of Rhaegar's location
B- Someone pulled or withheld his men from helping Rhaegar

Several misconceptions need clearing here:

1) bookish or not, Rhaegar was noted as a skilled warrior

2) Robert's army wasn't bigger than Rhaegar's. In fact, Rhaegar had 5000 more men - 40k vs 35k

3) better equipped? What makes you say so? Why would the smiths of CL be less skilled than smiths of North or Stormlands? Rhaegar has the backing of the Iron throne, he can afford the best weapons the money could get. In fact, the only advantage that Robert had was that his men were battle-tested

4) and why the hell would all of this mean that Rhaegar was betrayed? By that logic - Robert was betrayed as well - since he ended up having to fight a skilled warrior to death, receiving serious wound in the process, all without his entourage

20 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Rhaegar's death happening does not require treachery, betrayal, or sacrifice for prophetic reasons. No one is invincible. Valar morghulis. 

This, this and thousand time this

[Lucius Lovejoy]

23 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

No one had to. The battle was at the Trident, both armies were there, and Rhaegar was the guy in the black and ruby army with the helm that had dragon wings. 

I think people are needlessly complicating a simple matter. Anyone can be killed. All men must die. This stuff is echoed throughout the series. Ned Stark was perhaps the best character in the books in terms of honor. Dead. Robb was kicking the Lannister army's collective posterior all over the map. Dead. Oberyn Martell was a major badass. Dead. Gregor Clegane was considered pretty much unbeatable. Dead.

Rhaegar's death happening does not require treachery, betrayal, or sacrifice for prophetic reasons. No one is invincible. Valar morghulis. 

Amen!  There is tons of foreshadowing, magic, prophecies and unreliable narration throughout the books which is why we love them, but in the end there is a simple repeated theme - all men must die.  And at least from what we know, outside of potentially Mirri Maz Duur and Drogo's deaths (and I don't believe they did), no one's death had a higher spirtual/magical purpose.

[Stormking902]

Just stop lol Robert won at the trident they battled both received injuries and Robert finally smashed his chest in with his war hammer thats it. You Rhegar fans are just too much sometimes ........