Greywater-Watch

Remark by Jaime's aunt Genna about Tyrion

51 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

Dear members, this question has probably already been discussed. Re-reading AFFC I stumbled over a remark by Genna Lannister (while she meets Jaime at the siege of Riverrun, the chapter right before "Cat of the Canals").

At the end of their discussion they talked about Tywin:

"Jaime kissed her cheek. "He left a son." "Aye, he did. That is what I fear the most in truth." That was a queer remark. "Why should you fear?" "Jaime," she said, tugging on his ear, "sweetling, I have known you since you were a babe at Joanna's breast. [...] but Tyrion is Tywin's son, not you. I said so once to your father's face, and he would not speak to me for half a year. [...]."

What to make of this? Does Genna refer to Tyrion's character or does she hint at something as deep as that someone else fathered Jaime and Cersei (King Aerys)?

Edited by Greywater-Watch

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

IIRC Tywin tells both Jaime (when he refuses Casterly Rock) and Tyrion (when he is on the privy dying) that "you are no son of mine."  Tywin also does tell Tyrion that he is his son when explaining why he would name him acting hand.  My take has been that this is all to fuel speculation but really both are his sons, however Jaime's arc is one of redemption from "bad guy" to "good guy" overcoming the sin of being a kingslayer and all that followed, whereas Tyrion will never get over what happened with Tysha and become a grim heartless man.  Tyrion's end game is either as Lord of Casterly Rock or Hand to the Targaryen King/Queen as his father was, and while different in personality he will ultimately be a cruel and shrewd player of the game of thrones looking out only for himself and his family (whatever that family looks like).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For me, she's just saying that Tyrion has all of Tywin's personality traits. But Tywin couldn't bare the idea that his 'imp' son was anything more than a cruel jape by the gods. That, and Jaime isn't much like his father at all. 

It's an important scene in that we get an account from what is essentially another Lannister. One who isn't named Cersei or Tywin; two Lannisters who speak of Tyrion with the utmost derision. 

I know it's exciting to get carried away with paternity rebus. But all in all do you think she would drop a massive bombshell on Jaime in this fashion? What would there be to gain? I think it makes more sense that Genna was instead issuing a warning... "That Lannister that got royaly screwed? Yeah, he's going to be the next Tywin." I think the implication is that Tyrion should of been treated as an heir to 'the Rock'. Instead of an enemy. Now, there's a line in the sand - so to speak. And it doesn't take a lot of imagination to figure how this will play out.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Dolorous22 said:

For me, she's just saying that Tyrion has all of Tywin's personality traits. But Tywin couldn't bare the idea that his 'imp' son was anything more than a cruel jape by the gods. That, and Jaime isn't much like his father at all. 

It's an important scene in that we get an account from what is essentially another Lannister. One who isn't named Cersei or Tywin; two Lannisters who speak of Tyrion with the utmost derision. 

I know it's exciting to get carried away with paternity rebus. But all in all do you think she would drop a massive bombshell on Jaime in this fashion? What would there be to gain? I think it makes more sense that Genna was instead issuing a warning... "That Lannister that got royaly screwed? Yeah, he's going to be the next Tywin." I think the implication is that Tyrion should of been treated as an heir to 'the Rock'. Instead of an enemy. Now, there's a line in the sand - so to speak. And it doesn't take a lot of imagination to figure how this will play out.

 

:agree: Tyrion is the one most like Tywin. He has the intelligence, he has the cunning, the natural ability. He just doesn't have the looks. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tywin's reaction is best explained by his rage at the thought that the son that he strongly suspects to be Aerys's is in fact the closest in personality to Tywin himself. The impotence he must feel at this fact would be extreme.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Jaime is a piss poor strategist, commander, and all around thinker. He's the Westerosi equivalent of the popular high school jock that peaked during his senior year. Yeah he can swing a sword, but let's face it, the guy's not exactly the smartest. Another thing he shares with Cersei. 
Tyrion comments that if it had been Tywin that Robb captured and Jaime was the one in charge of winning the war, he would throw all his forces at Riverrun and lose the war immediately. And he's right. 

GRRM deliberately throws in these red herrings (especially so in the last book) to keep people guessing. I don't think it's anything too deep, really. She means Tyrion was the only one that inherited his father's intelligence, and Tywin is petty enough to see this as an insult, because he knows, deep down, she's right. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Genna made the statement to point out that Tyrions mind and personality were a close match to Tywin, it wasn't meant to imply anything else. But Tywin who sees the truth in it, is worried that Jaime and Cersei, the golden children that he always wanted, were sired by Aerys and that his own seed produced the stunted Dwarf.

 

1 hour ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

 

Tywin's reaction is best explained by his rage at the thought that the son that he strongly suspects to be Aerys's is in fact the closest in personality to Tywin himself. The impotence he must feel at this fact would be extreme

 

I believe if Tywin suspected Tyrion was sired by Aerys, Tyrion would have been killed years and years ago.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Makk said:

Genna made the statement to point out that Tyrions mind and personality were a close match to Tywin, it wasn't meant to imply anything else. But Tywin who sees the truth in it, is worried that Jaime and Cersei, the golden children that he always wanted, were sired by Aerys and that his own seed produced the stunted Dwarf.

 

I believe if Tywin suspected Tyrion was sired by Aerys, Tyrion would have been killed years and years ago.

It is impossible for the twins to be sired by Aerys. Unless women can be impregnated remotely, over hundreds of intervening miles.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

It is impossible for the twins to be sired by Aerys. Unless women can be impregnated remotely, over hundreds of intervening miles.

There is simply not enough information to make that statement. Not only is the world of ice and fire (which I presume is what you are talking about) imprecise and biased towards avoiding scandal to the Lannisters, it doesn't even say that. It says Joanna "seldom" visited Kings landing, not "never". Nor does it ever say Aerys never visited Casterly Rock, nor that they were never in some other place at the same time in that period. By your same logic Tywin couldn't have sired Jaime and Cersie because he was living in Kings Landing.

IMO both Aerys and Tywins reactions towards the twins and Tyrion make a lot more sense if the suspicion rests on Jaime and Cersei. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The point is that she's wrong, as Jaime goes about proving then after. Tyrion is no servant of House Lannister or servant of the realm, he is not willing to be disliked, hated, thought dishonourable or carry out morally difficult actions for a greater purpose. Jaime has, and will again when Westeros will need him most.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Greywater-Watch said:

Dear members, this question has probably already been discussed. Re-reading AFFC I stumbled over a remark by Genna Lannister (while she meets Jaime at the siege of Riverrun, the chapter right before "Cat of the Canals").

At the end of their discussion they talked about Tywin:

"Jaime kissed her cheek. "He left a son." "Aye, he did. That is what I fear the most in truth." That was a queer remark. "Why should you fear?" "Jaime," she said, tugging on his ear, "sweetling, I have known you since you were a babe at Joanna's breast. [...] but Tyrion is Tywin's son, not you. I said so once to your father's face, and he would not speak to me for half a year. [...]."

What to make of this? Does Genna refer to Tyrion's character or does she hint at something as deep as that someone else fathered Jaime and Cersei (King Aerys)?

My take is in one hand she is stating some obvious personality traits  and in the other hand provoking Jaime to act more like his father, so the Lannister regime is secured. Then, Jaime threatens to mail babies via trebuchet.

Jaime is very very interesting. He is utterly without ambition. He doesn't desire gold nor power. He rejected Casterly Rock, whilst Tyrion dreams with it. He rejected being the Hand, whilst Tyrion resented that his father took the position away from him. Tyrion thinks that Jaime lusts for battle and glory, whilst this is not true anymore. Jaime doesn't even desire his sister anymore. He craves for duty and some sort of honor.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If Genna meant that Jaime is literally not Tywin's son, then she actually told who his real father is. It's Tygett, Gerion and Kevan - all together :ph34r:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For me, Jaime has much bigger role to fulfill that has to do with Westeros and its future. When he starts to work/serve for the benefit of the realm and all people in it, NOT his Lannister family, is when he will achieve the true greatness destined for him in the mind of George RR Martin (and it has everything to do with the Long Night, White Walkers, Starks, Jon Snow, etc.).

Tywin's life work was to merge the words "Lannister" and "the realm" into a single entity. He wanted to bend the realm to his will where protecting the interests of his family meant protecting the interests of the realm and the government. Now Cersei will continue his legacy, but she will fail miserably, because, again, she is not as smart as she thinks she is.

Tyrion will be the true heir of Tywin's work. But in a completely new reshaped world after Long Night, where family name and bloodline will not bear much strength. He will work for the benefit of a new realm. Not because he is "the lion" like his dad Tywin, but because he is the most qualified for the job, again, just like his dad. And it will be a position of a high importance - equivalent of Hand of the King - Prime Minister, Chief Administrator, Chancellor, etc.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Greywater-Watch said:

Dear members, this question has probably already been discussed. Re-reading AFFC I stumbled over a remark by Genna Lannister (while she meets Jaime at the siege of Riverrun, the chapter right before "Cat of the Canals").

At the end of their discussion they talked about Tywin:

"Jaime kissed her cheek. "He left a son." "Aye, he did. That is what I fear the most in truth." That was a queer remark. "Why should you fear?" "Jaime," she said, tugging on his ear, "sweetling, I have known you since you were a babe at Joanna's breast. [...] but Tyrion is Tywin's son, not you. I said so once to your father's face, and he would not speak to me for half a year. [...]."

What to make of this? Does Genna refer to Tyrion's character or does she hint at something as deep as that someone else fathered Jaime and Cersei (King Aerys)?

Character. She compares Jaime to all his uncles, who are Lannisters and says that he has little in common with Tywin personality wise.

Not every character is a secret Targaryen. And personality traits are no genetic.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What's interesting about this scene is that it ends there: we don't get Jaime's immediate reaction to the suggestion that he isn't Tywin's true son, in whatever sense.  However, if Genna was trying to goad him into acting like Tywin she was successful!

Jaime and Cersei may be Aerys's, but there is no reason why Genna would know that, and if she knew or suspected she would never have spoken as she did.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Dofs said:

If Genna meant that Jaime is literally not Tywin's son, then she actually told who his real father is. It's Tygett, Gerion and Kevan - all together :ph34r:

Joanna was a very busy woman.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

3 hours ago, Lady bonehead said:

What's interesting about this scene is that it ends there: we don't get Jaime's immediate reaction to the suggestion that he isn't Tywin's true son, in whatever sense.

He doesn't answer then because he doesn't care to answer. He doesn't want to be Tywin and doesn't care if his aunt or anyone else thinks he lacks the Tywin strength and fortitude. Where Tywin was unapologetic in his actions, Jaime is reluctant but able because he believes in the need for them and that the need outweighs the personal cost, a personal cost he is now willing to bear without bitterness. That's the difference, he has already done this, he did the unthinkable, a kingsguard who killed his king, destroying his honour to save a million lives, and for it the world resented him and so he turned his back on the world, reducing it to almost exclusively Cersei. New Jaime is shedding that resentment.

Quote

Must you make me say the words? Pia was standing by the flap of the tent with her arms full of clothes. His squires were listening as well, and the singer. Let them hear, Jaime thought. Let the world hear. It makes no matter. He forced himself to smile, "You've seen our numbers, Edmure.

Let the world hear, it makes no matter. They'll judge but he cares not (or is learning not to), so long as they do what they're supposed to do and shit gets ordered and stays there.

Edited by chrisdaw

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

Personally I don't think Tyrion is like Tywin at all. Tyrion's defining character trait is wanting be loved by people which Tywin distinctly lacks. Tyrion is not nearly as ruthless or cold, he doesn't care about war or titles or even being a noble really, he mostly likes books and travelling and drinking.

If Tyrion sounds like anyone it's his grandfather, Tytos.

 

Edited by Cataldo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, Cataldo said:

Tyrion's defining character trait is wanting be loved by people which Tywin distinctly lacks.

Correct, and Jaime no longer cares. His desire for honour, to do the right thing is no longer about perception, it's simply for himself.

But key to Tyrion also is his love of power, it's basically self stated in the text when he begins ruling as Hand.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Makk said:

There is simply not enough information to make that statement. Not only is the world of ice and fire (which I presume is what you are talking about) imprecise and biased towards avoiding scandal to the Lannisters, it doesn't even say that. It says Joanna "seldom" visited Kings landing, not "never". Nor does it ever say Aerys never visited Casterly Rock, nor that they were never in some other place at the same time in that period. By your same logic Tywin couldn't have sired Jaime and Cersie because he was living in Kings Landing.

IMO both Aerys and Tywins reactions towards the twins and Tyrion make a lot more sense if the suspicion rests on Jaime and Cersei. 

To me there is much more support for the twins being Aerys' kids than Tywin's. Their incestual attraction to one another, for one thing, and Cersei obviously growing madness are the two biggest clues. It's significant that only Cersei is showing signs of madness - as people have pointed out, whenever a Targaryen is born the gods flip a coin. It came up non-madness for Jaime and madness for Cersei. Her descent will likely even follow the same path as Aerys' - paranoia, suspicion, a love of burning things. Her captivity with the Faith mirrors the Defiance of Duskendale and foretells that it'll get even worse in the near future. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.